A Question For Us Radar Controllers Options

[ivanvedder]

Hy, this is an italian Atcer, I have a question for all the radar controllers here:
In 2001 (in case of a plane with transponder off) did you have to select a different setting on your radar to see his primary response?
this is what the 9/11 commission says:

"On 9/11, the terrorists turned off the transponders on three of the four hijacked aircraft. With its transponder off, it is possible, though more difficult, to track an aircraft by its primary radar returns. But unlike transponder data, primary radar returns do not show the aircraft's identity and altitude. Controllers at centers rely so heavily on transponder signals that they usually do not display primary radar returns on their radar scopes. But they can change the configuration of their scopes so they can see primary radar returns. They did this on 9/11 when the transponder signals for three of the aircraft disappeared."

Is there any guy (especially from Boston or New York, Cleveland, and Indianapolis) who can answer?
In the italian sistem if an aircraft loses the transponder signal (or if we have an a/c without it) we see directly (with no changings of configurations) a specific simbol (+) with the speed indication.
thanks for your help
ciao!

This post has been edited by ivanvedder: Feb 21 2007, 09:22 AM

[Robin Hordon]

Pinnacle...

Lets try to get through your excellent questions...

Could the four engine aircraft have been operating via IFF and thus NOT be visible to FAA radar except that it would then be seen as a primary target by FAA radar.

Yes!

But, such a high speed primary target may not have been easily noted by smaller low altitude sectors in the FAA facilities and the high altitude sectors would not usually have their "primary target" button pushed and thus, they would not see it either. Radar data shown in succeeding days may disclose all the targets that all the radars actually "saw" or "considered" during that time period. And controllers may not have seen them on that day because of their "selected target" buttons pushed or not pushed. But, IF a controller were in a searching mode, they could adjust their scopes to create a competent search. I do not know what they chose to do...and it would be nice to know.

The radar track readout that Ashoki had showing the "alleged" tracks along the ground for the "alleged" AA77 were thought to be showing the C-130 departing from Andrews BUT the primary radar target that I "sorta saw" actually was a very high speed target in a long turn just north of the pentagon and WH. So, I actually thought I had that WHITE four engined aircraft "picked out". Needless to say, I can no longer find that entire radar display from Ashoki. Hmmmm???? Sound familiar?

I saw ABSOLUTELY NO PRIMARY TARGET that represented the C-130 departing from Andrews...and C-130's are very, very visible to primary radar.

It's also possible that such an aircraft could be painted/coated with "stealth" materials and that would eliminate some primary radar returns...but that's just conjucture...although, if I were to slip a "secret" aircraft through that airspace on that day, you KNOW I would paint it invisible. The military is well known for taking advantage of all situatons to test their new fangled stuff...so, one never knows.

The last I was aware, there were some defensive ECM...Electronic Counter Measure systems for military aircraft that would confuse any inbound missles by somehow projecting their "target" to another location. But, I do not think that such capacilty exists regarding normal FAA radar systems. Again, that is conjuecture on my part. I do know this, the military is very, very advanced in its radar research and developments.

And YES, any radar return, either primary or secondary would be considered a "record" of an aircraft seen by the associated radar system IF such records were in fact real. As far as making positive radar identification of said targets, that would have to have very specific steps taken by the pilot at the behest of the controller...either with a transponder or primary target.

Its not all that hard to create any and all the information that I have seen so far. In the 1970s there were fake target generator technologies used to train air traffic controllers, and that was 30 ago! So really, almost anything is "create-able, or "delete-able".

Hope this helps...

Love, Peace and Progress...

Robin Hordon