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Big Question, DFDR w/SDAC

UnderTow
post Sep 1 2006, 12:05 AM
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http://usread.com/flight587/letter_to_FAA_by_NTSB.html

Letter from NTSB to FAA re the Filtering Problem in the Flight 587 Flight Data Recorder
by Victor Trombettas

{snip}
On February 6th, 2002, the NTSB Chairman, Marion Blakey, sent a letter To the FAA's Administrator addressing the issue of "vital" flight control position data that was filtered (or averaged) by the System Data Analog Converter (SDAC) before it was sent to the Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) on board Flight 587.
...
Unfortunately, when the FAA informed the NTSB in 1996 that several airplane manufacturers were compliant with accurate FDR requirements, that list did not include Boeing and Airbus.
{end snip}

Might be something to check up on.
Does/Did Boeing 757-2 (and AA77) have a SDAC? If so, what does it do?
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driver
post Sep 1 2006, 06:53 AM
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"Unfortunately, when the FAA informed the NTSB in 1996 that several airplane manufacturers were compliant with accurate FDR requirements, that list did not include Boeing and Airbus."

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf69/137036_web.pdf

This is referencing resolution requirements for recording flight control parameters.

Specifically for the Boeing 757 it concerned the resolution requirements for
the following parameters:

12a-pitch control position
14a-yaw control position
19-pitch trim surface position
23-ground spoiler position or speed brake selection
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driver
post Sep 1 2006, 07:14 AM
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"Does/Did Boeing 757-2 (and AA77) have a SDAC? If so, what does it do?"




Analog signals from the rudder position, aileron position, elevator position, and horizontal stabilizer position are processed through the
SDAC before they are sent to the flight data recorder.

On the Boeing 757 the EICAS or Engine Instrument Crew Alert System performs a similar function.


Essentially it converts an analog signal to a digital signal.

This post has been edited by driver: Sep 1 2006, 07:23 AM
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UnderTow
post Sep 1 2006, 09:39 AM
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Thanks very much driver. I know what it did essentially.
Just wanted to know which parameters it affected (Thank you for that)
and how (might not matter at this point) ie does it round, filter, etc.
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driver
post Sep 1 2006, 12:43 PM
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What really matters concerning this topic is if someone told you they were giving you the data from the Digital Flight Data Recorder from Flight 77 and the data did not include
parameter 26- radio altitude information or an explanation, then someone is playing games with you.
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UnderTow
post Sep 1 2006, 01:09 PM
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The only answer to that we have, at this time, is the Factual Report from the NTSB.
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driver
post Sep 1 2006, 02:11 PM
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The only answer to that we have, at this time, is the Factual Report from the NTSB.

Was any explanation provided for not supplying the parameter 26-radio altimeter information?
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UnderTow
post Sep 1 2006, 02:34 PM
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Just this:
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UnderTow
post Sep 1 2006, 02:38 PM
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Also, concerning your question in the Throttle thread.
I will post again the scans I took of the I attachements listing which parameters were plotted and which were not.

I've done it before but I have to go find where I left them. smile.gif
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driver
post Sep 1 2006, 03:25 PM
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Thanks for providing that explanation.

Obtaining all the parameters would be very beneficial to any inquiry considering
the DFDR data, in particular the radio altitude parameter.

Ideally, a responsive NTSB would explain why the radio altitude information was not included, i.e. was it not recorded properly or was it not confirmed.

If the radio altitude data was recorded but not confirmed, then there is no legitimate explanation for them withholding the "not confirmed" data,imo. In a perfect world they would release the data and state it is not confirmed and why it is not confirmed.

Regardless, the efforts you all have put forth in examining the available data
are impressive and deserve praise from everyone interested in what occurred to Flight 77.

We can be certain Hani Hanjour was not at the controls;hence, the importance of your efforts.
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tocarm
post Dec 15 2006, 12:08 PM
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Data from the DFDR would serve but to confirm ATC observations regarding the behavior of the 9-11 aircraft that fateful day. The DFDR will not tell who was in actual "control" of the 9-11 flight(s).

Go to ATA chapter 23 and review B757/B767 SATOM interfaces with the other B757/B767 systems such as Flight Management Computers (FMCs).

Satellite data link to any/all SATCOM equipped B-types is established via the B-type SATCOM antenna mounted on the top of the fuselage near/around the station corresponding with the wing's trailing edge.

Satellite data/commands are received by the Satellite Data Unit (SDU) located within the aft cargo compartment behind panel rendering it safe/secure from any human/pax/hijacker access.

SDU transmits data/commands via a "back door" connection to the flight deck's/cockpits CDU. The pilot/co-pilot inputs commands/flight plans for their B-type into the CDU.

Pilots/co-pilots can (and do) manually/physically input flight plan commands to/for their B-type via the flight deck/cockpit's CDU.

"Unknown" ground controllers who have access to/knowledge of that particular B-type's assigned/programmed I.D. number can likewise electronically input flight plan commands to/for their "Arab Terrorist Hijacked" B757 or B767.

Who has the the B757 and B767 SATCOM Indentifier Codes for each and every last Boeing production 757 & 767 so as to gain electromic/satellite access to the on-board CDU so as to fly any/all B757s & B767s by remote control from any console linked to SATCOM?

Meet your REAL 'Arab Terrorist Hijackers'....Boeing, FAA, DOD, United Airlines, American Airlines.

- tocarm
A&P - CO - EWR
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rob balsamo
post Dec 15 2006, 02:52 PM
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tocarm.. please check your PM's...

Welcome to the forums! Its GREAT to have you...

Rob
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rob balsamo
post Dec 15 2006, 02:57 PM
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For the laymen out there...

CDU = Central Display Unit. Basically a computer screen where you see your input into the flight computer...

B-Types - Not sure.. hopefully tocarm can explain further

SATCOM - Satellite Communications Technology

DFDR - Digital Flight Data Recorder
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Cary
post Dec 15 2006, 05:08 PM
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Welcome to the forums tocarm. You seem to have some expertise which will be appreciated here.
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tocarm
post Dec 17 2006, 11:41 AM
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Dear Rob,

Regarding "B-types"...

Boeing 707s, Boeing 727s, Boeing 737s, Boeing 747s, Boeing 757s, Boeing 767s and Boeing 777s = B707s, B727s, B737s, B747s, B757s, B767s & B777s which all = "B-types" as Airbus 320s, Airbus340s = A320s, A340s = "A-types" as DC8s, DC9s & DC10s = "D-types".

- Joe
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tocarm
post Dec 17 2006, 12:01 PM
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Dear Cary,

Regarding my "expertise", I'm not too terribly impressed by it. <grin> While airplanes might appear to be "impressive" to the average non-aviation immersed individual on account of either their shape, size or the amount of noise they generate, they are all pretty much very simplistic things. Know a little bit about the principles of hydraulics, the principles of basic electricity, the basic principles of physics, some principles of basic chemistry, a little bit about different types of metal and materials, how to operate some basic machine shop type tooling like lathes, drills, sheet metal working tools, screws, bolts, nuts - and viola! - anybody can go into their backyard garage and build/assemble their own "Experimental" flying aircraft. Truth to tell, I have more problems diagnosing, troubleshooting, maintaining and repairing my own automobile! <very big grin> SAE types simply must make automobiles much more complicated then they really have to be!

So about this SATCOM, ACARS, ADF, VHF, ILS, ADIRU, FMC, FCC, Autoflight, Autopilot, Autothrottle, Autotake-off, Autoland, Auto-brake, Auto-Navigation type of "Gee Whiz" stuff aboard contemporary aircraft buzzing all around the globe and above everyone's heads - all the aviation acronyms and aviation gobbledy-gook lexicon/vocabulary/terminology - don't let it overly impress, scare, intimidate or awe you.

To understand HOW 9-11 was pulled off using these B-types, print up for yourself these two pictures:

http://lp.typepad.com/lopsided/images/b52model4.jpg
http://www.af.mil/news/airman/0106/targets_gallery03.shtml

And then print out the "Technical Data Text" from this website, read it, look at the photos above - and VIOLA! - you have become a "9-11 Expert" eligible to go working for the F.B.I. as one of their "Special Agents on Domestic Terrorism" in any of the many Field Offices within and throught these United States of America!

http://science.howstuffworks.com/cruise-missile1.htm

Get yourself one of those nice, comfy-cushy FEDERAL GOVERNMENT jobs, put your 20 years in like all those 'fellow US citizens' in the DOD, FAA, DOT, CIA, FBI, etc. and you are 'set for life' living on and living off an ENDLESS SUPPLY of funny Federal Reserve Note fiat monies not having to have done nor having to do a blasted thing in defending/supporting/upholding the Constitution of the United States of America nor in enforcing the United States Code - particularly Title 18 Sections 31, 32, 33, 34 & 35!

- tocarm
Viet Nam Era Vet - USAF - 355TTW - Sgt.

This post has been edited by tocarm: Dec 17 2006, 12:06 PM
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rob balsamo
post Dec 17 2006, 01:02 PM
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QUOTE
Regarding "B-types"...

Boeing 707s, Boeing 727s, Boeing 737s, Boeing 747s, Boeing 757s, Boeing 767s and Boeing 777s = B707s, B727s, B737s, B747s, B757s, B767s & B777s which all = "B-types" as Airbus 320s, Airbus340s = A320s, A340s = "A-types" as DC8s, DC9s & DC10s = "D-types".

- Joe



doh1.gif


lol

salute.gif
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avmech
post Dec 20 2006, 12:56 PM
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QUOTE (tocarm @ Dec 17 2006, 10:41 AM)
Dear Rob,

Regarding "B-types"...

Boeing 707s, Boeing 727s, Boeing 737s, Boeing 747s, Boeing 757s, Boeing 767s and Boeing 777s = B707s, B727s, B737s, B747s, B757s, B767s & B777s which all = "B-types" as Airbus 320s, Airbus340s = A320s, A340s = "A-types" as DC8s, DC9s & DC10s = "D-types".

- Joe

the 767 uses iru data (inertial reference unit) which is 50 feet accuarte for inflight data it uses dme dme paired updates which uses two pair of dme stations to upgrade the raw iru info so how does the fdr use different data?
my contention is this the saudi arabian gov was deeply involved in 911 our gov
is hiding this
these type of websites are hiding it
and obfuscating the truth
there is no candyass way of saying the fdr on flight 77 could ever "exactly" place the lateral position of the aircraft
so why are "they" saying this?
i dont know im just an avionics technician the 767 does not use gps position

i guess somewhere there is an "absolute" reference " unit of lateral position!
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jo56
post Dec 23 2006, 01:23 PM
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757-200 Background Info from Boeing site:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/757family...pf_200back.html

Check out this site, it seems to imply that 757/767 did have SDAC:

http://www.ntsb.gov/Recs/letters/2003/A03_48_50.pdf

(go to page 3 under Filter Data)

Quote:

"These recommendations called for the elimination of filtered flight control position parameters on Boeing 757/767 airplanes, an increase in the sampling rates of flight control parameters, and a review of other airplane designs to ensure that flight control position data were not filtered."

Does this relate to your thread topic? I have no expertise in this area, just info I found on web.

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rob balsamo
post Dec 23 2006, 02:02 PM
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QUOTE (avmech @ Dec 20 2006, 11:56 AM)
these type of websites are hiding it
and obfuscating the truth

Are oyu saying we are trying to hide something avmech? All information is available.

And if you saying the INS system is good to 50 feet, thats still not enough to place it on the flight path according to the govt story. You meed more like 800-1000.
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