Ins Lat/lon Heading Study, time for graphs Options

[UnderTow]

One of the benefits of our 2nd ReadOut was that we finally had very good Latitude and Longitude numbers. Remember the NTSB Official Tabular Readout, the Lat/Lon numbers did not have enough precision and were in error by a very large number. How they screwed them up I have no idea. But with ReadOut2 we had very good numbers.

The other great debate has to do with Headings. Where was the plane pointed?
With regards to that I began a little study starting with the new Lat/Lon numbers.
Using forumlas for conversion I calculated the bearing from each Lat/Lon pair to the next pair. Pretty simple once it's setup in Excel.

I ended up with a new True Heading Column based solely on the INS Lat/Lon numbers.
Then compare with the ReadOut2 Mag and True columns, as well as the original NTSB Mag column.

For the data set Take Off to End this is what it looks like.

Left Axis is the Difference in Degrees between 2 sets.
NMagDeltaBDeg is NTSB Mag minus my computed True Heading
The others are NTSB Mag minus the RO2 Mag and True columns.
(IMG:http://www.aa77fdr.com/readout2/NDeltas.png)

Isn't it pretty. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Sanders]

I have no idea what it means, but yeah, very pretty. Always liked purple & yellow together.

Carry on, sorry I can't help, but I'm sure the DATA will set us free

[thehighwaymanq]

I found this and never heard it before. I thought I would take it to the pilots and see if you guys can go into it more.

http://z10.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...4606&st=0&#last

I think it's really good, what ya guys think?

[amazed!]

Yes, a good point. Throw another log on the fire, or put another nail in the coffin. The official version of events has more holes than 20 pounds of Swiss cheese! (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[thehighwaymanq]

The official version of events has more holes than 20 pounds of Swiss cheese! (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Boy, that's a quote.

[darion]

Yeh it just shows another piece we missed to pick up on before this. How many other points did we miss to pick up on. I think its time to step back and relook at the events surrounding 9/11 to see if anything else has been missed.

[rob balsamo]

The LC thread is inaccurate in terms of mileage...if measuring by reported values.

Feel free to plot it yourself...

[SPreston]

Doesn't the FDR give us an average speed of 400 knots for the alleged Flight 77 flight path? If this is so, and Flight 77 was approximately 370 miles from the Pentagon at its turn at 9:00am, then how is it possible that Flight 77 flew 370 miles and managed that 7000' descending turn around the Pentagon in just 37 minutes? A maximum speed of 600mph (act 590mph at 27000') would give us 10 miles per minute times 37 minutes would equal the necessary 370 miles to the Pentagon. But we know that the alleged Flight 77 did not travel at maximum speed, don't we? Besides, it would be impossible to arrive at the alleged crash scene in just 37 minutes with the 330' descending turn, even at maximum speed. Am I correct? This was picked up from a savvy post on the LC forum. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/yes1.gif)

(IMG:http://www.team8plus.org/the-movement/radar/images/Flight77_return_journey.jpg)

8:20 am : Flight 77 departs from Dulles Airport. Some 20 miles from the Pentagon.

8:50 : Last radio communication with flight 77. Now some 280 miles from the Pentagon.

8:56 : Transponder contact lost. Now some 335 miles from the Pentagon.

9:00 : Flight 77 turns and heads for the Pentagon (Washington DC). Now some 370 miles away from the Pentagon.

The hijackers finally make their move (and about time, all the time they are getting further and further away from where they started, and of course, further and further away from where they are headed).

To give the Air National Guard/USAF a fighting chance the intrepid hijackers wait till they are about 400 miles away from their target before turning back.

But even though the hijackers are more than sporting about the whole affair (after all they have given the USAF over 40 minutes to get aircraft up to investigate, and if necessary, shoot them down) the totally incompetent (read corrupt) USAF isn't quite up to the job.

9:37 : AA77 crashes into the southwest side of the Pentagon. Now, precisely 0 miles from the Pentagon.

This post has been edited by SPreston: Aug 29 2007, 03:30 PM

[SPreston]

The LC thread is inaccurate in terms of mileage...if measuring by reported values.

Feel free to plot it yourself...

How inaccurate? Doesn't the FDR give us an average speed of 400 knots for the alleged Flight 77 flight path? If this is so, and Flight 77 was approximately 370 miles from the Pentagon at its turn at 9:00am, then how is it possible that Flight 77 flew 370 miles and managed that 7000' descending turn around the Pentagon in just 37 minutes? A maximum speed of 600mph (act 590mph at 27000') would give us 10 miles per minute times 37 minutes would equal the necessary 370 miles to the Pentagon. But we know that the alleged Flight 77 did not travel at maximum speed, don't we? Besides, it would be impossible to arrive at the alleged crash scene in just 37 minutes with the 330' descending turn, even at maximum speed. Am I correct? (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/yes1.gif)

(IMG:http://www.team8plus.org/the-movement/radar/images/Flight77_return_journey.jpg)

8:20 am : Flight 77 departs from Dulles Airport. Some 20 miles from the Pentagon.

8:50 : Last radio communication with flight 77. Now some 280 miles from the Pentagon.

8:56 : Transponder contact lost. Now some 335 miles from the Pentagon.

9:00 : Flight 77 turns and heads for the Pentagon (Washington DC). Now some 370 miles away from the Pentagon.

The hijackers finally make their move (and about time, all the time they are getting further and further away from where they started, and of course, further and further away from where they are headed).

To give the Air National Guard/USAF a fighting chance the intrepid hijackers wait till they are about 400 miles away from their target before turning back.

But even though the hijackers are more than sporting about the whole affair (after all they have given the USAF over 40 minutes to get aircraft up to investigate, and if necessary, shoot them down) the totally incompetent (read corrupt) USAF isn't quite up to the job.

9:37 : AA77 crashes into the southwest side of the Pentagon. Now, precisely 0 miles from the Pentagon.

This post has been edited by SPreston: Aug 29 2007, 03:27 PM

[rob balsamo]

Not sure where you guys are getting this "370" number from....

I just checked it again on GE. Its 260NM from the Pentagon to Lawrence Cty Airport.

Given True airspeed average was 400 knots (going by your number) and a prevailing westerly tailwind of perhaps 40-50 knots at altitude for a total of 450 knots groundspeed.

250/450 = .55 X 60 = 33 mins

[SPreston]

Not sure where you guys are getting this "370" number from....

I just checked it again on GE. Its 260NM from the Pentagon to Lawrence Cty Airport.

Given True airspeed average was 400 knots (going by your number) and a prevailing westerly tailwind of perhaps 40-50 knots at altitude for a total of 450 knots groundspeed.

250/450 = .55 X 60 = 33 mins

1 nautical mile = 1.15077945 miles
260 km x 1.15077945 = 299.202657 miles
It seems we erred on the distance. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/dunno.gif)

[UnderTow]

One of the benefits of our 2nd ReadOut was that we finally had very good Latitude and Longitude numbers. Remember the NTSB Official Tabular Readout, the Lat/Lon numbers did not have enough precision and were in error by a very large number. How they screwed them up I have no idea. But with ReadOut2 we had very good numbers.

The other great debate has to do with Headings. Where was the plane pointed?
With regards to that I began a little study starting with the new Lat/Lon numbers.
Using forumlas for conversion I calculated the bearing from each Lat/Lon pair to the next pair. Pretty simple once it's setup in Excel.

I ended up with a new True Heading Column based solely on the INS Lat/Lon numbers.
Then compare with the ReadOut2 Mag and True columns, as well as the original NTSB Mag column.

For the data set Take Off to End this is what it looks like.

Left Axis is the Difference in Degrees between 2 sets.
NMagDeltaBDeg is NTSB Mag minus my computed True Heading
The others are NTSB Mag minus the RO2 Mag and True columns.
(IMG:http://www.aa77fdr.com/readout2/NDeltas.png)

Isn't it pretty. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hmm

[wstutt]

Hi UnderTow,

One of the benefits of our 2nd ReadOut was that we finally had very good Latitude and Longitude numbers. Remember the NTSB Official Tabular Readout, the Lat/Lon numbers did not have enough precision and were in error by a very large number. How they screwed them up I have no idea.  But with ReadOut2 we had very good numbers.

I believe I can see roughly where the NTSB made their error. If you have a look at your short Data Frame Layout, you will see on lines 63, 66 and 67 that the LS part of the longitude has a range of +/-0.3515625 degrees. I believe that the NTSB did not process the sign correctly.

Note that all the longitudes are negative and that 0.3515625 degrees = 21.09375 minutes which I believe is approximately equal to the error you observed.

The NTSB could well have made the same error with the latitudes but I believe that since they are all positive unlike the longitudes, it did not make any difference to the data we see in the CSV files.

I would have expected them to be more careful! (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

Warren.

[rob balsamo]

I had a feeling the 21 minutes off was due to some type of calibration error... you basically confirmed it.. thanks Warren.. (IMG:http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)