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"Establishing Facts" Split Out, off topic posts

jrnsr
post Aug 31 2007, 10:59 PM
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I heard loud jet engines and looked out east to the horror of a Boeing 747 dropping into my shop. As it was only about a mile away, it banked slightly and kept descending. As it rolled, it became apparent, that it was Air Force 1 with the blue belly. Gerald Ford was going over "the Big House" (U of M Stadium) for the last time.

One air force vet was there with me.

Another air force vet buddy informed me an aircraft of that nature would be buffeted by dense air to the point of instability at low speeds...

This post has been edited by jrnsr: Aug 31 2007, 11:13 PM
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Quest
post Aug 31 2007, 11:55 PM
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QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Sep 1 2007, 12:02 AM)
Also let me add in regards to this post..


QUOTE
then the 'NPT', regardless of all the other questions remaining unanswered, is substantially validated



This is not necessarily true. The numbers Joe refers to are for a stock 767 as reported by the govt.

The planes could have been aerodynamically and/or powerplant modified. The possibilities are endless and certainly does not validate NPT.

Rob,

It may not be intentional but what you are doing here is known as a circular argument. You are saying, in effect, that it's possible that "NPT may not be validated just because the plane is traveling too fast", and you are suggesting that the plane may have been performance enhanced, and your "proof" is videos that have not been ruled out as hoaxes by scientific analysis. This goes back to a post I made in the tread, "What Is The Proof The WTC Videos Are Authentic?" As I stated earlier, you cannot use videos that have never been scientifically scrutinized as proof of anything. My post is below...

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum...dpost&p=9890403
"My greater point is that there is absolutely no scientific basis whatsoever for anyone to claim this video is what actually transpired at the 2nd tower. It has not been proven that the plane is real, it has not been proven that planes "melt" into steel-framed buildings as opposed to crumpling like an accordion and nor has it been proven that this is not a fake video that may be a composite of a real plane and building but a faked entry as in the aforementioned "melting" aspect. There has been no expert-analysys nor fact-checked, peer-reviewed studies authenticating any aspect of this Hezerkhani or Carmen Taylor videos.

Claims that these videos are "proof" of anything are baseless. Period."

The Hezekhani and Taylor are likely frauds and aspects of the videos are highly suspect. Even the backgrounds of the video-takers suggest foul play may be afoot. Something is dreadfully wrong with these 2 individuals, especially in light of their post-911 good fortunes (literally) and their videos cannot and should not be trusted blindly. I commented in another thread...

"Hmmm, I wonder how Hezerkhani's post-911 businesses are working out. Did anyone hear the news about that yet? Pre-911 he lived in California. Goes to NYC. On 911, films an infamous video. After 911, he's back in California, a diamond merchant and owns 2 businesses. Looks like 911 was good for business."

Until the Hezerkhani and Taylor videos have been proven to be legit (as opposed to hoaxes) and their authenticity can be vouched for scientifically, they are proof of nothing.

This post has been edited by Quest: Sep 1 2007, 12:33 AM
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waterdancer
post Sep 1 2007, 04:30 AM
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around and around... real vid/fake vid? What proof is there that at least some of the videos/pics are not authentic? None that would stand up in a court of law, as far as I can tell. Prove the vids show something impossible happening while "175" is still in the air. PROVE. Not talk about it on the internet. P-r-o-v-e i-t. Take into consideration possible modified equipment. Then you have a damning case. Until then it is just more talk on the internet. How do I keep getting sucked in here anyway? LOL. Must be a conspiracy plot by the NPT people or something, i just know it. wink.gif cheers.gif

This post has been edited by waterdancer: Sep 1 2007, 04:36 AM
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CocaineImportAge...
post Sep 1 2007, 07:13 AM
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Fact!... a lot of people jumped out windows!

Conclusion!... people jumping must be fake too!.... if no plane hit the building then the central core would have been intact... surely!?!
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Timothy Osman
post Sep 1 2007, 10:06 AM
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QUOTE (CocaineImportAgency @ Sep 1 2007, 11:13 AM)
Fact!... a lot of people jumped out windows!

Conclusion!... people jumping must be fake too!.... if no plane hit the building then the central core would have been intact... surely!?!

The central core was damaged to a degree by the impact of a big plane there were all sorts of other things going on as well from what I understand that can't be explained by the Big Boeing, such as the lobby and sub-basement floors of WTC1 being destroyed, so there is evidence that explosives were used in conjunction with the impacts.
I'm not a pilot or an aerospace engineer but I do understand that if they, the perps, the shadow gov, wanted to fly a 767 at speed into a building they could. I think the argument that a 767 couldn't achieve this goal when all the limitations of the plane are known and understood by the designers of the mission with high speed flutter being a known quantity in this type of plane. The fact that the plane had enough grunt to achieve that velocity comes from the fact that it has two great big jet engines tied to it which in "normal " operating circumstances would never really stretch themselves. I keep an open mind on all this simply because I don't understand the behaviour of the MSM regarding 911, I do agree that maybe the head of the serpent is best described as the media as they are the opinion shapers and campaign killers who shape the governments of our nations via the information they feed us sheep.
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Factfinder Gener...
post Sep 1 2007, 12:41 PM
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QUOTE (waterdancer @ Sep 1 2007, 03:30 AM)
around and around... real vid/fake vid? What proof is there that at least some of the videos/pics are not authentic? None that would stand up in a court of law, as far as I can tell. Prove the vids show something impossible happening while "175" is still in the air. PROVE. Not talk about it on the internet. P-r-o-v-e i-t. Take into consideration possible modified equipment. Then you have a damning case. Until then it is just more talk on the internet. How do I keep getting sucked in here anyway? LOL. Must be a conspiracy plot by the NPT people or something, i just know it.  wink.gif cheers.gif

The Falsified Angle of Projectile Approach shown in the WB 11 Live Shot, for one, proves video manipulation.

This is clearly, as Sanders puts it, a "modified newscast."

This post has been edited by Factfinder General: Sep 1 2007, 12:45 PM
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CocaineImportAge...
post Sep 2 2007, 07:06 AM
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QUOTE
The central core was damaged to a degree by the impact of a big plane


...yes Tim`!... the core was so badly damaged by the plane those poor people`s last decision in life was to burn or jump to their deaths... leaves me numb!

FfG!... do you have a comment/opinion on my post!?!
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CocaineImportAge...
post Sep 2 2007, 10:46 AM
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QUOTE
Fact!... a lot of people jumped out windows!

Conclusion!... people jumping must be fake too!.... if no plane hit the building then the central core would have been intact... surely!?!




QUOTE
FfG!... do you have a comment/opinion on my post!?!


FfG!.... ANY THOUGHTS!?!
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CocaineImportAge...
post Sep 2 2007, 01:50 PM
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QUOTE
QUOTE
Fact!... a lot of people jumped out windows!

Conclusion!... people jumping must be fake too!.... if no plane hit the building then the central core would have been intact... surely!?!




QUOTE
FfG!... do you have a comment/opinion on my post!?!


FfG!.... ANY THOUGHTS!?!


...so much to say on this subject but still not one word!... can anybody see why!?!
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amazed!
post Sep 2 2007, 04:02 PM
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Hey, here's an idea: lets make some fake/altered videos, release them as the real thing, and sit back and see what happens.
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Sanders
post Sep 2 2007, 05:03 PM
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QUOTE (Factfinder General @ Sep 2 2007, 01:41 AM)
QUOTE (waterdancer @ Sep 1 2007, 03:30 AM)
around and around... real vid/fake vid? What proof is there that at least some of the videos/pics are not authentic? None that would stand up in a court of law, as far as I can tell. Prove the vids show something impossible happening while "175" is still in the air. PROVE. Not talk about it on the internet. P-r-o-v-e i-t. Take into consideration possible modified equipment. Then you have a damning case. Until then it is just more talk on the internet. How do I keep getting sucked in here anyway? LOL. Must be a conspiracy plot by the NPT people or something, i just know it.   wink.gif cheers.gif

The Falsified Angle of Projectile Approach shown in the WB 11 Live Shot, for one, proves video manipulation.

This is clearly, as Sanders puts it, a "modified newscast."

For the record, I did look at that WB11 footage and some maps, and concluded with certain reservations that the footage was funny. However I want to state that my little analysis was rough and involved some estimates and that I was swayed by Waterdancer's treatment of it, which was done much more thoroughly than mine. I'm a little befuddled by our two slightly different conclusions, I don't see exactly what was wrong with mine, yet I see nothing wrong with his (WD's). Either way, such an analysis depends on an accurate representation of the flight path, which we don't have. NTSP's little map is just that, a little map that doesn't show any detail or what the plane might have been doing in that last mile. To really know we'd need something like the FDR from the plane, which we don't, and even without it Waterdancer's analysis checks out to me, from what I can tell. I think I've noted also that the alleged plane is so far away from the camera and flying so fast that even a slight deviation from a "straight-on" angle of approach would translate as seeing the plane enter from from the right (somewhat desceptively I might add). I'm not saying anything one way or another, but I can't agree that the hypothesis that the WB11 footage doesn't reflect the actual flight path has been confirmed. (All due respect to those that think it has).

IMHO.
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grizz
post Sep 2 2007, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (CocaineImportAgency @ Sep 2 2007, 10:50 AM)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Fact!... a lot of people jumped out windows!

Conclusion!... people jumping must be fake too!.... if no plane hit the building then the central core would have been intact... surely!?!




QUOTE
FfG!... do you have a comment/opinion on my post!?!


FfG!.... ANY THOUGHTS!?!


...so much to say on this subject but still not one word!... can anybody see why!?!

It takes a while to answer the magic bullet questions like this one. I had one, too. Here. Basically, it was how did the anchors and reporters have real time conversations if it took a time delay to insert the airplanes into the video streams. It took a while for the no-planers to even understand the question, but finally it was answered by changing the NPT to say that it did not take time to digitally insert the planes. As it turns out, that was instantaneous.

So I'm sure somebody will come up with an answer to this question.
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CocaineImportAge...
post Sep 3 2007, 04:27 PM
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QUOTE
It takes a while to answer the magic bullet questions like this one


...the reason FFG, imo, has`nt responded to this point has nothing to do with the amount of time he might need to formulate an answer!... he simply has no answer!

The FACT that we have people jumping from windows, though you may not see it, blows all his claims sky high!

...thats why he cant reply to this FACT!
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Sanders
post Sep 3 2007, 04:36 PM
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QUOTE (CocaineImportAgency @ Sep 4 2007, 05:27 AM)
QUOTE
It takes a while to answer the magic bullet questions like this one


...the reason FFG, imo, has`nt responded to this point has nothing to do with the amount of time he might need to formulate an answer!... he simply has no answer!

The FACT that we have people jumping from windows, though you may not see it, blows all his claims sky high!

...thats why he cant reply to this FACT!

???

People that believe there were no planes believe the explosions at least were real. If I am correct FfG believes as many do, that some sort of missile or non-boeing aircraft actually hit the towers and the event was covered up with video alteration, but that the explosions were real. I tend to entertain this hypothesis, but either way Everyone believes that the explosions were real, and thus the fires. So of course the people jumping from the towers were, tragically, real, as well as the fires and damage that made them jump. There's no argument there.
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Factfinder Gener...
post Sep 3 2007, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE (CocaineImportAgency @ Sep 2 2007, 12:50 PM)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Fact!... a lot of people jumped out windows!

Conclusion!... people jumping must be fake too!.... if no plane hit the building then the central core would have been intact... surely!?!




QUOTE
FfG!... do you have a comment/opinion on my post!?!


FfG!.... ANY THOUGHTS!?!


...so much to say on this subject but still not one word!... can anybody see why!?!

Hold your horses, CocaineImportAgency. I merely overlooked this split out as I was too busy concentrating on the main thread.

Jumpers, now: Are they faked? Is that what you want me to cast my opinion on?
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Factfinder Gener...
post Sep 3 2007, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE (Oceans Flow @ Sep 2 2007, 04:22 PM)
It takes a while to answer the magic bullet questions like this one. I had one, too... Basically, it was how did the anchors and reporters have real time conversations if it took a time delay to insert the airplanes into the video streams. It took a while for the no-planers to even understand the question, but finally it was answered by changing the NPT to say that it did not take time to digitally insert the planes. As it turns out, that was instantaneous.

So I'm sure somebody will come up with an answer to this question.

A clarification, Oceans Flow:

The so called Wescam helicopter live Shot may have been instantaneous but other of the live shots wouldn't have been. The simple very basic superimpostion of these other so called Live Shots was achievable within the window of an extended broadcast delay. Everything about the broadcast: i.e. the interviews, footage airing, segment editing etc. is sent out delayed. All interviews and show editing including "supers", the whole show in other words, is subject to the delay. We are not getting anything truly live.

Does that make it clearer? Again, there was no intentional dodging of any magic bullet questions as far as I was concerned. occasionally, I will overlook a question for any number of innocent reasons.

Also, there is no altering of NPT theory involved here in my answer as I believe.

Sorry about the misunderstanding due to my oversight and any frustration it may have caused, Sincerely, FfG.
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CocaineImportAge...
post Sep 3 2007, 06:26 PM
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QUOTE
Jumpers, now: Are they faked? Is that what you want me to cast my opinion on?


...yet another selectively deliberate misinterpretation!
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CocaineImportAge...
post Sep 3 2007, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE
Said Callahan: "I had a few pilots come back and tell me that they needed to go back to the gate immediately because some of the passengers on board the aircraft had actually witnessed the impact of the second airplane. They had a plane full of distraught passengers."


...just for reference.

copied from here
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CocaineImportAge...
post Sep 3 2007, 07:49 PM
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QUOTE
"There, not 200 feet from me, the underside of a huge
commercial airliner screamed by, left wing low, two engines
and aluminum fuselage for a few seconds, and it was gone.


...just for reference!

copied from here
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grizz
post Sep 3 2007, 08:15 PM
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FfG, it wasn't you. I believe it was jrnsr that said that the digital inserts were instantaneous.
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