....Sanders... just a thought... in the 17th century Rothschild/Bauer's were working for the Oppenheimer`s.... have you came across any connections there!?

[Disclaimer:

I wrote the posts in this thread (those under my name) as I embarked on a path of research, motivated purely by an intense curiosity, and I marked my discoveries along the way here in this thread. I was fascinated by the use of occult symbology in our media (and other clues), and the more I investigated the more I saw that the history, in fact "world-view" that we have all been told to accept is mostly balony. (I stand by that 100%.) However I concluded too fast that there was a linear connection between the self-annointed managers of our country (and, to a large and increasing degree, our planet) and an ancient "dragon" culture. And I have (somewhat mistakenly) described this culture as of a "conquering" nature in many of my posts. While I learned a great deal on my search for answers, and while the reader might find some of my posts interesting, I have discovered that my overriding view of the big picture was wrong.

The true dragons were a wise and just sub-race of Kings and Queens of antiquity, and they have been all but gone for a thousand years - exterminated by the Church and her clients, the long string of usurpers who traded loyalty to Rome in return for its (fraudulent) recognition of kinghood. The Templars were not dragons (I don't think), they were rather a military arm of the dragons, from whom they split and pursued their own interests. William the Conqueror may have had some dragon blood in him, but he was first a warrior and his loyalties lied with his own power-grab - he killed many true "dragons" (the elven Picts) during his brutal subjugation of the north of England - and, the descendents of his warrior co-usurpers from Normandy, "bully-boys" as they have been described, who comprised the moneyed-elite of America throughout much of its history, were no better despite their claims of blue-bloodedness. Far worse are the bankers, often the descendents of those Norman colonists, who have taken their place. None of these people who have caused so much anquish in pursuit of their own monetary gain throughout modern history are "true" dragons, though I suspect they cling to imagined thread-thin connections to those ancient families, while they have hijacked the symbology and 'religion' (for lack of a better word) of the ancient cults in pursuit of their own bloated vision of themselves as overlords of us "stupid sheep".

If you want to know about the true "dragon blood-line", don't bother with my drivel, read instead "The Dragon Legacy" or any other of the works of Nicholas de Vere.]


There are lots of connections. They're big into banking and diamonds, they run De Beers.

The family's roots are apparently in the Rhineland (like the Loeb family).

http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=oppenheimer

.....................................
EDIT:
Bernard and Ernest Oppenheimer who sold diamonds from the Cullinan Mine in South Africa were in competition with De Beers in the early 20th century - during WWI De Beers absorbed that mine and Oppenheimers have been helping run De Beers ever since. De Beers was or course started by Cecil Rhodes. I would suspect that the real origin of the Rhodes name is the Island of Rhodes, off the coasts of Greece and Anatolia. The migration from Egypt to Greece I have talked about went via 2 routes, one being Phoenicia as represented by Cadmus, the other via the island of Rhodes, represented by Cadmus' mythical cousin Danaus. There are a bunch of analogues between Danaus and the biblical Tribe of Dan, which I went into at the beginning of this thread. In a word, the island of Rhodes is very important to this dragon blood-line business, and I'm of the opinion that the "Rose-line" is a play on two words, Rus representing the Gogi branch, and Rhodes representing the Egyptian. That's speculation of course.

The Oxford Rhodes Scholarship was named after Cecil Rhodes (and remember that there have been 20 or so de Veres who have been Earls of Oxford). The English Rhodes branch were also granted lands and title from William the Conqueror for distinguished service at the battle of Hastings.


http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fc/qx/R...amily-crest.htm

Forgive me for jumping around.

Just west of the Crown Temple Church, which was built by the Knights Templar in the City of London, is the border of the City which has been marked through time by various landmarks. A stone arch which was dismantled and moved, a wooden arch before it, and supposedly a chain or a wooden bar before that, which people passed when entering the City. This apparently is the basis of the phrasing, "passing the bar", for the Templar home became the center of the legal profession in England. Not surprising, because the Templars were the world's first interstate bankers, and the banking and legal professions evolved hand in hand.

I just watched (finally) Johny Depp in Sweeny Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street, which reminded me of this and I thought I'd post it. The "bar" was on Fleet Street and the Temple Church between it and the Thames.

The bar isn't there anymore of course, nor are any of the arches which were built in its place. But a monument was erected there in the middle of the street.

(A dragon.)

This is the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul (formerly Constantinople, the capital of the Byzantine Empire). For nearly a thousand years it was the largest church in the world (its size was surpassed in the 16th century by the Seville Cathedral in Spain). It was built fairly early in the history of the Roman Christian Church between A.D. 532 and 537 and became the center of Eastern Orthodoxy until the Ottoman Turks conquered Constantinople in the 15th century and it was turned into a mosque. Later four minarets were added.



Hagia comes from the Greek hágios, meaning "holy". Who is Sophia?

She has been described as the embodiment of wisdom, the "wife of god", the Great Mother, the goddess of love and war, and even the holy spirit. She has been associated with the Virgin Mary, Mary Magdalene, Isis, Ishtar, Inanna (the original Great Mother goddess in ancient Sumer), Cybele (consort of Attis who is also referred to as the Great Mother), and any one of a number or Greek godesses (Athena, Aphrodite or Rhea).

Here's a page on the "Virgin Sophia" from the Rosicrucian Library,

http://www.crcsite.org/ViriginSophia.htm

And here's a blurb that caught my eye from a page titled 'Sophia - AVE MARIA!':


http://www.forministry.com/USCANONDEFOL1/Sophia.dsp

There is an important Sophia in my recent family tree which attempts to show the connections between Michael I Rangabe, the Hungarian Arpads, and some auspicious rulers of Britain and Germania circa a thousand years ago, Sophia Arpad Princess of Hungary who begets the Wittelsbach dynasty from one marriage and Albert the Bear (Margrave of Brandenburg) from another. Prince George of Hungary who begot the Scottish Drummond clan was her first cousin, and the sister of her great Uncle Yaroslav (who sheltered Edward the Exile in Kiev) was Arlogia, who married a Brusse (ancestor of the Bruce kings of Scotland).



The Arpads descended from Arpad king of the Magyars, who led the Magyar and Khabar migration west into the Pannonian basin (later to become Hungary). So, why was this Khazar/Hun princess named Sophia??? I knew that there were no Byzantines in her ancestry on the side of her father, Bela I, for his parentage was all Magyars and Saxons (Bela's and his brother king Andrew's great-great grandfather on their grandmother Adelaide's side was king Alfred of England). I figured there had to be a Byzantine connection from Sophia's mother's side.

If you've been following this thread, you may have noticed that I've been extra-curious about a Byzantine connection ever since I learned that the blue and white crests of many noble families (such as the Stewarts and Bruces) appear to have derived their color theme from Byzantine Emperor Michael I Rangabe and that the origin of the myth of the half-serpent Melusine was very likely Michael's granddaughter Melissena. I've gone so far as to guess that the royal blood pool in Byzantium at the time was a blend of royal Armenian and Khazar Kagan blood.

Well, guess who Sophia's mother was and guess who she is descended from ...

Her name was Katun Comitopuli and her father was descended from royal Armenians and Bulgars. I remember reading about Khazar forays into Bulgaria and even that some motivated Khazars fled there when their empire collapsed.

http://fabpedigree.com/s021/f070194.htm

Sorry I can't be more specific about the Khazar-Bulgar connection, but you can see in that pedigree that the Bulgar kings were called 'Khans', a variation of 'Kagan' (?), as are the Jewish family names Cohen and Kuhn ... or, more likely, vice versa. The first Khan of Bulgaria was Hernac, son of Attila the Hun, way back in the 5th century.

Back to the goddess Sophia that the Hagia Sophia church was named for, it should be obvious that the veneration of the Virgin Mary by the Rosicrusians, that of Mary Magdalene by the Templar Knights, Cybele by the self-castrating Galli priests and the child-sacrificing Cybele-cult worshipers of ancient Greece (which sprang from the Caucasus and Phrygia) before them, and the veneration of Sophia by the early Christians of the Byzantine empire is all the same thing in different forms - worship of the Great Mother Goddess.

And there's one other thing I find very interesting .... the "Great Schism", or the split of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches into two separate halves took place in .... 1054. A mere decade before the Viking Normans under Duke William's banner stormed into England and took it over, and only 40 years before the first Crusaders marched to Constantinople to protect the Byzantine Empire from Turkish invaders and went on from there to conquer Jerusalem. (I don't know if or how the later two events are connected to the Great Schism, but I'm sure gonna try and find out!)

(Apart from conflicts stemming from differences in dogma or ideology, are there any other big differences in the way the churches of Rome and Constantinople were run? Yes ... the western popes were appointed (called Apostolic succession). The Byzantine church was headed by Emperors who inherited their thrones by blood. This is reminiscent of the conflict the Roman church had with the Merovingians - when the rulers of early France changed from the Merovingian to the Carolingian line an agreement was reached with the church, whereby the new Frankish kings would inherit their thrones but had to submit to church approval in order to be crowned Holy Roman Emperor. Guess who gave that approval to Charlemagne? It wasn't a pope ... it was Michael I Rangabe ! )

-----------------
The blonde woman god has his arm around in Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel fresco below is thought to represent Sophia -



.......................
EDIT: Some interesting things I didn't know about the Bulgarian Empire -

They teamed up with the Byzantium Empire at one point to fight the Turks. Also, from New World Encyclopedia:

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/...pire#Background



(Attila the Hun was allegedly the ancestor of Arpad king of the Magyars.)

I've made mention of the fact that a few of the original Templars (including Hughes de Payen) came from Champagne which was originally called Troyes, and suggested that the "Gogi" branch (of this hypothetical "dragon blood-line") was on the Trojan side of that war with the Greeks, and that eventually some migrated north into Scythia (as did remnants of some of the northern tribes of Israel?) and on into other parts north - most conspicuously Scandinavia, the "Sc" prefix of those two place names being related according to various sources and Black Sea origins of the Vikings being generally accepted.

Well, I was poking around trying to see if there is any veracity to the (apparently bogus) claim that Attila the Hun was a descendent of Odin (Woden), and imagine my surprise when I ran across the name Frithuwulf King of the Trojans.

I really like this genealogy site, you'll notice the Woden in question is listed as being "Overlord of Anglo-Saxons" among whose children Saemingr (King) of Norway and Winta (King) of Lindsey are listed, with Yngvi (King) of the Swedes and Skjoldr of the Aesir (1st King) of the Danes listed as possible children. Frigg (Frigida) of Asaland is listed as a wife. (This roughly fits the legendary Woden and wife Frigg (from where we get our words for Wednesday and Friday btw) who's sons ruled various lands in Scandanavia including Denmark, Norway and Skaneland (southern Sweden).

Frithuwulf the Trojan is listed as Woden's great-grandfather (paternal).

http://fabpedigree.com/s072/f114462.htm

A different site has Woden's sons as Wecta, Skjold, Baeldaeg "Beldig" "of Scandinavia" , Casere, Seaxneat, Waegdaeg, Wihtlaeg and Winta.
http://homepage.mac.com/james_keller/PS16/PS16_437.HTML

...and gives some other information, including:
"A whole saga existed about the Scyldingas/Skjoldungar, the Skjoldunga Saga. Parts of it survive in the Flatey Book and we have Arngrímur Jónsson's Latin abstract of the sögu-brot (fragment) of the Skjoldunga Saga. It says that the warlord Odin, coming from Asia, gained dominion over Northern Europe, giving Sweden to his son Yngvi and Denmark to his son Skjoldr. So the rulers of Sweden are called Ynglings and the rulers of Denmark are called Scyldings." - [1]

That site lists Woden's paternal great-grandfather as simply Frithuwulf.

Yet another has Woden as a brother of Ve, Vili, Skjoldr, Saemingr and Yngvi with sons Njord, Winta, Skjold, Baeldaeg, Wecta, Casere, Seaxneat, Waegdagg and Wihtlaeg.
http://familytrees.genopro.com/Azrael/ind00767.htm

That site doesn't list Woden's great-grandfather, but father and paternal grandfather match the other sites.

This is just a personal genealogy site someone put up, but it's also got Woden's paternal great-grandfather listed as "Frithuwulf King of Trojans".
http://mypages.allwest.com/~rognan/genealo...g3042.htm#77030

This apparently sits well with the Icelandic 'Prose Edda':


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asgard

....................
EDIT:
Another genealogy site describes Fridulf (son of Freothelaf, so ostensibly Woden's father?) as "the Supreme Ruler of the Scythians in Asaland or Asaheim or Asgard in what today is Turkestan" http://scheie.homedns.org/3HistoryOppegaard.htm

Some sites claim that Asgard (of Norse myth) was Troy on the western shore of modern Turkey, the site above claims it was in Turkestan which would be farther east on the other side of the Caspian Sea. Other sources I've read have the proto-Viking migration being made up of the Aesar, Vanir and Erul tribes from the Sea of Azov, the Crimea and Lake Van respectively, these areas are roughly in between the Black and Caspian Seas. Who knows where "Asgard" really was, but the Trojan War has been estimated to have occured somewhere around 11 or 12 hundred BC ... if Woden led the migration north then the Vikings didn't arrive in Scandinavia till over a thousand years after the assumed time of the Trojan war (so one could imagine people calling themselves 'Trojans' living almost anywhere in that area).

I have seen 2 programs on Attila the Hun and Hannibal (of Alps, elephant, and anti-Roman Carthage fame) this week. There were enough similarities in the 2 stories that I've been wondering if there was a common root there. The various Saxon hordes and the Celts in Britain weren't all that friendly with Rome either (and apparently Hannibal made good use of this fact).

From:

http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/attilat...ttilathehun.htm

"Attila's Rise to Power
Called the Scourge of God by the Romans, Attila the Hun was king and general of the Hun empire from A.D. 433 to 453. Succeeding his uncle, King Roas, in 433, Attila shared his throne with his brother Bleda. He inherited the Scythian hordes who were disorganized and weakened by internal strife. Attila's first order of affairs was to unite his subjects for the purpose of creating one of the most formidable and feared armies Asia had ever seen."

http://www.livius.org/ha-hd/hannibal/alps.html

"Hannibal in the Alps
The Carthaginian general Hannibal (247-182 BCE) was one of the greatest military leaders in history. His most famous campaign took place during the Second Punic War (218-202), when he caught the Romans off guard by crossing the Alps."

EDIT: Going back a little further into the non-history of this "Scythia" region, we have Xerxes and the Persian Empire (the main one after Egypt I believe):

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/xerxes/xerxes.php

"Xerxes (Khashayar Shah)

Xerxes (Khashayar Shah)
Xerxes (Khashayar) was born around 520 BCE in the southern province of Persis (Fars). He was a powerful king who ruled Achaemenid (Persian) Empire from 486-465 BCE. Xerxes was Darius The Great's eldest son by Queen Atosa (daughter of Cyrus The Great). He had been designated official heir perhaps as early as 498 BCE, and while crown prince he had ruled as the King's governor in Babylon.

The new king quickly suppressed the revolt in Egypt in a single campaign in 485 BCE. Xerxes then broke with the policy followed by Cyrus The Great and Darius of ruling foreign lands with a fairly light hand and, in a manner compatible with local traditions, ruthlessly ignored Egyptian forms of rule and imposed his will on the rebellious province in a thoroughly Persian style. Plans for the invasion of Greece begun under Darius were then still further delayed by a major revolt in Babylonia about 482 BCE, which also was suppressed with a heavy hand.

Xerxes then turned his attention westward to Greece. He wintered in Sardis in 481-480 BCE and thence led a combined land and sea invasion of Greece. Northern Greece fell to the invaders in the summer of 480 BCE, the Greek stand at Thermopylae in August of 480 BCE came to nought, and the Persian land forces marched on Athens, taking and burning the Acropolis. But the Persian fleet lost the Battle of Salamis, and the impetus of the invasion was blunted.

Xerxes, who had by then been away from Asia rather long for a king with such widespread responsibilities, returned home and left Mardonius in charge of further operations. The real end of the invasion came with the Battle of Plataea, the fall of Thebes (a stronghold of pro-Persian forces), and the Persian naval loss at Mycale in 479 BCE. Of the three, the Persian loss at Plataea was perhaps the most decisive. Up until Mardonius was killed, the issue of the battle was probably still in doubt, but, once leaderless, the less organized and less disciplined Persian forces collapsed. Time and again in later years this was to be the pattern in such encounters, for the Persians never solved the military problem posed by the disciplined Greek hoplites.

The formation of the Delian League, the rise of Athenian imperialism, troubles on the west coast of Asia Minor, and the end of Persian military ambitions in the Aegean followed rapidly in the decade after Plataea. Xerxes probably lost interest in the proceedings and sank deeper and deeper into the comforts of life in his capital cities of Susa, Ecbatana, and Persepolis. Self-enjoyment was steadily sapping the strength and vitality of the Achaemenid Empire, led to the assassination of the Great King in 465 BCE -probably upon order by one of his sons, Artaxerxes, who succeeded him-."

All that eventually would lead to Alexander (the Great) of Macedon (and Hannibal above):

http://faq.macedonia.org/history/alexander.the.great.html

"Alexander the Great (356-323 BC), the king of Macedonia that conquered the Persian empire and annexed it to Macedonia, is considered one of the greatest military geniuses of all times. He is the first king to be called "the Great."

You know Sanders, we need an ancient world map marked up with all the various names of these various people and groups. Then I could put them in a spreadsheet with some rough timeframes and URLs. It would be really cool if we could hyperlink these to various articles on a 3D globe and timeshift it back or forward, but maybe someday...

Here is an excellent source for ancient maps that I just found:

Index of Cartographic Images illustrating maps from the Ancient Period:
6,200 B.C. to 400 A.D.
http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancient%20...s/AncientL.html

Antique and Ancient Maps
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_S.../histmaps.shtml

Here is a modern version selectable by country:

http://geology.com/world/

Here are some fairly good "blank" outline map images that could be marked up and/or color coded but aren't all that high-res:

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/testmaps/maps.htm

Could you post a chronological hyperlinked list of the maps that you've already gathered? (There must be a ton already ) Maybe I could turn that into a Power Point animation- that could be informative, too.

I think we really should tie the places, names, and times together to add some visual "traceability" to all this, and I think you are correct that many of the groups are actually the same ones with cross-referenced names changing gradually over time (or on the other side of the mountain at the same time), and several of them apparently got around.

EDIT: Maybe split them to a cross-referenced "Historical Maps" or "Dragon Maps" thread?

Here are some free printable maps (or .PDF for me) from 1 page to wall-sized:
http://www.yourchildlearns.com/megamaps.htm

Here is that "old standby" National Geographic map (9MB) that I think everyone knows from school:
http://rapidshare.com/files/38350371/world_political.rar

http://www.dewantoro.net/2007/06/21/high-r...l-map/#more-152

This looks to have some good ones:
http://www.mapcruzin.com/download-free-maps.htm

EDIT3: Yes, the CIA Factbook 2008 maps are quite nice (in both .JPG and .PDF), and you don't have to go to CIA.gov to download them, either :
http://www.mapcruzin.com/free-world-maps/

EDIT2: This one is too cool (and sad actually in an energy context) not to link [Earth and continents viewed by satellite at night]:
http://geology.com/articles/satellite-phot...-at-night.shtml

Hey, great map sources !!!



That's a great idea but I think it'd be a LOT of work, especially if you tried to show movements and how the kingdoms changed ! So much of this stuff is speculative and it's hard to get clear information. Maybe I'll play around with it though, I have some pretty cool simple animation software.

I just found something titled the Royal Line of George Washington...


http://www.stavacademy.co.uk/mimir/moere.htm

The page then lists the descendency from George Washington back to Woden.

Ladon-Gog (John) has a couple of chapters that touch on the Washington and Wash names, his research led him to connect the families to the Merovingians. But of course Woden supposedly lived in the 2nd century A.D., the Salian Franks came down into France from northern Europe a couple hundred years after that, so it wouldn't be out of the question.

Here are the Washington and Wash crests:



Sort of "Viking" with the red-white stripes, don't you think??? (And what's the Megan David doing there on the Wash crest???)

To get back to the above 1879 article that traces the first US president to Woden, there are a couple things in there that were pretty crazy. #30 in the line is SIGURD EARL OF THE ORKNEY ISLES, who is listed as having married Thora, daughter of Malcolm, King of Scotland. This would tie Washington to the Scottish royal McAlpin line that intermarried with the Bruces, the Stewarts and Queen Margaret (and all of their assorted Byzantine, Hun, Khazar and Davidic connections), and ties Woden to them all as well (!). And guess who was also from Orkney ... Rognvald Brusse of Orkney - who married Arlogia sister of Yaroslav. Go back and look who her father and mother were ... her mother was a direct descendent of Michal I Rangabe and Melissena, and her father Vladimir (Varangian Rus ruler of Kiev) is from Scandinavian royalty - I know because I went through the genealogy charts myself ... I didn't go back far enough to find Woden, but I'll bet dollars to donuts Vladimir and Yaroslav trace back to him too. And of course, when Yaroslav gives his daughter Anastasia in marriage to king Andrew of Hungary, you connect THOSE two lines to the Arpads (!).

Speaking of Scottish nobility, remember how I showed that the Stewarts married into royal Jewish blood (the Davidic line) early in their family's history? The patriarch of the Stewarts was Alan FitzFlaald, who married Adeliza (Warine) de Hesdin, the royal Stewarts all descend from this couple. She's here
http://fabpedigree.com/s057/f400642.htm
and you can trace her all the way back to Woden. A couple of the parentages along the way including her marriage to FitzFlaald are listed as "possible" or "probable", but this other site does have her married to him.
http://familytrees.genopro.com/Azrael/ind07019.htm

Woden of ASGARD
Skjoldr of the AESIR (1st King) of the DANES
Fridleif SKJOLDSSON (King) of the DANES
Frodi FRIDLEIFSSON (King) of the DANES
Fridleif FRODASON
Havar `the Stronghand' FRIDLEIFSSON
Frodi HAVARSSON
Vermund `the Sage' FRODASON
Olaf (Uffe) `the Mild' VERMUNDSSON
Dan `den Stolte' OLAFSSON
Frodi `den Fridfulle' DANSSON King in DENMARK
Fridleif (III) FRODASON
Frodi (Froda; VII; IV) FRIDLEIFSSON
Halfdan FRODASON (King) of DENMARK
Helgi HALFDANSSON (King) in DENMARK
Yrsa HELGASDOTTIR of SAXLAND
Eystein (Oystein) ADILSSON of SWEDEN
Ingvar (Yngvaarr) EYSTEINSSON of SWEDEN
Braut-Onundr INGVARSSON
Randgar (King) of UPPSALA
Sigurd Ring (King of DENMARK) RANVERSSON
Halfdan SIGURDSSON
Gudrodr (Gundrod) Veidikonung HALFDANSSON
Halfdan `the Black' (III; Duke/King) of VESTFOLD
Harald I `Fair Hair' (1st King) of NORWAY
Eric I `Blood Axe' (King) of NORWAY
Ragnhildr EIRIKSDOTTIR of NORWAY
Kenneth MacALPIN
Banquo MacALPIN
Alan Fleance (MacALPIN ?) of DOL
Alan FitzFLEANCE
Warine FitzALAN
Adeliza (WARINE) de HESDIN - husband - Alan FitzFLAALD

Here's the page that started with Adeliza de Hesdin,
http://fabpedigree.com/s057/f400642.htm
...and the page that ended with Woden.
http://fabpedigree.com/s072/f114462.htm

I didn't go checking every one of the connections that seemed in question, I was just playing around. I saw the MacAlpin name and knew I had seen it someplace before [EDIT: McAlpin was the family name of King Malcom I of Scotland], then that showed a couple of kings of Norway, and I kept going and actually went straight back to Woden from there. If you play around with this site you can probably go from Woden forward to a whole bunch of people ... and that's sort of the point.

Back to maps, this page gives this as the route the proto-Vikings supposedly took from Asia, for what it's worth.



This shows some of the places I've been talking about.



Anatolia is modern Turkey. Constantinople didn't get its name until the 4th century A.D. under Constantine the Great. Before that it was called Byzantium, and now it's Istanbul. The Armenian Empire changed in size greatly over the centuries extending almost to Phoenicia (modern Lebanon - not marked) at one point, but is was basically south of the Caucasus (where you see Lake Van). The small kingdoms of Colchis and Iberia were in the Caucasus, where modern Georgia and Abkhazia are now. The area which was known as Turkestan (which was mentioned as a possible homeland of the Vikings although I don't subscribe to that) was really big, extending east to Mongolia, the Huns (whoever THEY really were LoL!) conquered it all the way back in the 2nd century B.C. Scythia was both ancient and very large, and became the kindom of Khazaria in the 6th or 7th century A.D. I think. It extended west as far as Kiev, which is now a city in Ukraine.

I think I got all that more or less right

Hope that helps

In the above post Albert Welles has George Washington's ancestor Sigurd, Earl of the Orkneys marrying Thora, daughter of Malcolm, King of Scotland. I found her in the JDA database (the genealogy site I use a lot), listed as Anleta (Alice Olith) MacKenneth of Scotland, daughter of king Malcom II, married to one Sigurd (II) Hlodversson.
http://fabpedigree.com/s001/f410284.htm

Amazingly, Sigurd and Anleta's (recorded as Thora by Welles') two sons were Thorfin, from whom the Washington family descend, and Brusse of Caithness. Brusse's son is none other than Rognvald Brusse of Orkney, who marries Arlogia, sister of Yarolsav (and all her Byzantine and Viking relatives), from whom the Bruce kings all descend. So, while the Washington line spits off (immediately) before the Brusse, McAlpin, Varangian Rus, English Saxon royal and Byzantine Imperial lines collide, Washington's ancestors aren't just casually connected ... they are in the thick of it (!).

.......................
EDIT: Sure enough, Yaroslav (Grand Prince of Kiev who sheltered princess Margaret's father Edward the Exile and who's grandson George begot the Scottish Drummond clan) was likely descended from Woden. There are a couple of links in this chain that are disputed. According to JDA pedigree site:

Woden (Wodan Odin) of ASGARD
Skjoldr of the AESIR (1st King) of the DANES
Fridleif SKJOLDSSON (King) of the DANES
Frodi FRIDLEIFSSON (King) of the DANES
Fridleif FRODASON
Havar "the Stronghand" FRIDLEIFSSON
Frodi HAVARSSON
Vermund `the Sage' FRODASON
Olaf (Uffe) `the Mild' VERMUNDSSON
Frodi OLAFSSON
Fridleif (III) FRODASON
Frodi (Froda; VII; IV) FRIDLEIFSSON

>>the anscestry of George Washington and Yaroslav Grand Prince of Kiev apparently diverge here. The two share the above anscestors. Frodi marries Hilda of the Vandals, George Washington apparently descends from their son Halfdan FRODASON (King) of DENMARK, while Yaroslav descends from their other son Ingjald FRODASSON<<

Ingjald FRODASSON
Frode INGJALDSSON
Ingiald Starkadsfostre FRODESSON
Rurik Hnaggvanbauge SKANE von HALLAND
Frode RURIKSSON Skane von HALLAND
Halfdan Berg-Gram FRODESSON
Roric SLINGEBAND (King) of LETHRA
Harold HILDITONN (King) of LETHRA
Halfdan (Margrave) of FRISIA
Rurik (Grand Prince) of NOVGORAD (this link questioned)
Igor I (Grand Prince) of KIEV
Sviatoslav (Svatislav) I IGORJEWITSCH
Vladimir (Saint) I (Grand Prince) of KIEV
Jaroslav (Yaroslav Laroslav) I WLADIMIROWWITSCH (978 - 1054)

Search starts here with Yaroslav
http://fabpedigree.com/s034/f017520.htm
Ends here with Woden
http://fabpedigree.com/s072/f114462.htm



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EDIT II - above where I noted "this link questioned", it appears that the descendency is not in question but rather who is who's father or brother or grandfather etc.

This map shows where Frisia and Novgorod are. The genealogy appears to stay in the area of Denmark and Frisia until Rurik, Grand Prince of Novgorod. He lived between 830 – 879, roughly coinciding with the migration/invasion of the Varangian Rus into what is now Russia, Belarus & Ukraine in the 9th and 10th centuries. Rurik also controlled Ladoga, the land north of Novgorod.



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EDIT III - Just so there's no confusion, these familial relationships do not necessarily mean these various factions were always cozy with one other. Yaroslav was a violent ruler who opposed his father and (probably) killed some of his brothers and imprisoned another for life in an effort to wrest control of Kiev (which he did). He staged a raid against Constantinople (which failed). In another example, Margaret's father and hier to the English throne Edward returned to England only to be killed two days later. This left the succession in question and opened the door for William Duke of Normandy (who had a claim to the throne) to invade, after which Margaret along with her mother and Hungarian entourage fled to Scotland.

dMole, you began one of your posts above with -



Which I didn't respond to, but I'd like to, for it drives to the heart of what this thread is about. Yes, I DO think there was a common root there, but not one in the logistical sense of the word. The name Hannibal, according to Wikipedia: '...commonly known as Hannibal (in Punic: Annobal[dubious – discuss], meaning "Ba'al has given me grace" ' Hannibal was a Carthagninian commander - Ba'al was the main diety of Phoenicia. The Akkadian word was Bel, and I provided substantiation (with a quote from a Sumerian language site) early in the thread that the word Bel used in Akkad, aka Ba'al in Phoenicia, was equivalent to the word DAN in Sumer. There is no evidence that I can point to that DAN in ancient Sumer meant something along the lines of lord or god or ruler, but I suspect that that did and was able to at least find the Sumerian language expert (who I just mentioned) that equates this word with Bel.

The internet flick "Ring of Power" (which I have some problems with, but that's another topic) talks alot about the tribe of Dan. There were no vowels in classical Hebrew as it was written, and by extension 'Dan', 'Den', 'Din', 'Don' & 'Dun' can all be seen as variants of the same word. Ergo, the name Denmark meant land of Dan, Wo-den meant king (?), Sardinia from Shar/Czar (king) +land of Dan, and a plethora of place names from the Black Sea to Ireland ... the Danube, river Don, Dneistr, Danmoni, Aberdeen, etc. etc. all appear to contain this auspicious 'Dan' term. The biblical Tribe of Dan are not the only ancient 'Dan' peoples who can be given credit for all these place names though, there is the Tuatha de Danaan who arrived in Britain thousands of years ago by ship, and then there are the Danaus of Greece who apparently migrated there from Egypt via the island of Rhodes. Homer called the Greeks the Danois. The Vanir of Viking origins may also be a 'Dan' peoples, being simply a variant of Danir.

(Bear with me, this will all lead to Hannibal and Attila the Hun.)

...I further proposed that there was a deeply seated relationship between these early 'Dan' entities, pointing out that the mother of the biblical Dan was Bilhah, while the patriarch of the Greek Danaus is listed alternately as Belus, Belos, or Bela. From an early post in this thread:



There's one other piece of information that helps understand all this, the name 'Dan' in the bible is said to mean 'Judge', however there are other more common words to express that meaning - what Dan actually means is GOVERN - I would take it one step further (you'll see why in a second) and propose that it carried the connotation RULE.

If you cut through all the mythical trappings, this should all be clear as a Bel (excuse the pun). Bel (or Ba'al) were the supreme diety, "Dan" was his/her "offspring". In both the bible and in Greek legend, Dan and Danaus respectively are born of Bilhah or of Belus. In Japan where I live the Emperor (like these "Dan" entities as I propose), is traditionally said to descend from Heaven, as have all the other rulers who have claimed divine providence throughout history. In short, Dan (or Danaus) "rules the earth".

And what does the name Hannibal mean again? "Ba'al has given me grace".

Add to that that the symbol of the Dragon has been employed in practically every culture around the globe for thousands of years which is built on this model of a divinely sanctioned ruling class subjugating its people, that this tradition goes all the way back to Sumer and Egypt where kings were annointed by the fat of a "dragon" (a crocodile in the case of Egypt - the tradition is fuzzier with regard to Sumer), and that the Dragon sits in the heavens in the very center of the other constellations (which it rules), it is clear that this Dragon entity can be imagined to be the symbol of the ruling class of the world, who I have been trying to show in as detailed a way as I can are connected - not just by their ruthless demeanor grounded in a pagan belief system, by to large extent by blood as well.

I just mentioned Japan ... why would Japan have anything to do with this? While it is true that the Dragon is not an obiquitous symbol in Japan, it is one of the signs of the 12 year cycle, which the Japanese got from the Chinese. The Chinese on the other hand are famous for their dragons, the symbol of which is synonymous with the Chinese throne. They got this, arguably, from where they got their civilization itself, the Indus Valley, who got it from the Sumerians. Indeed, there are ruins of Ziggurats in China - pyramids not unlike those that are found in Iran and southern Iraq (ancient Sumer). The Chinese also have adopted the symbol of the Phoenix, who along with the Dragon represent the male and female and their respective agressive and nurturing qualities, in fact the Dragon and Phoenix paired together represent the epitome of balance in Feng Shui.

Which brings me finally to Hannibal and Attila. I mentioned earlier in the thread that I was curious about an unsubstantiated claim that Attila was descended from Woden. I have found no evidence for this, in fact the JDA pedigree site I like traces him (and royal Hun predecessors) back to China ... not just to the land of China, but to the imperial rulers themselves [Wu (Emperor) of China / Chwangu (Princess) of China / (NN; Prince) of Han Dynasty]. The search ends with Hu, "Son of Heaven".

http://fabpedigree.com/s084/f329059.htm
http://fabpedigree.com/s048/f206228.htm
http://fabpedigree.com/s052/f177963.htm

Hannibal on the other hand was Carthaginian - and Carthage was a Phoenician city, founded as their main trading hub in the Mediterranean. Ba'al worship there is well documented, and the Tophet found there (site of child sacrifice) is infamous, even if what actually went on there is controversial. It doesn't escape me that the Phoenix, venerated in China, and Phoenix, the brother of Cadmus who founded Phoenicia in the Greek myths and from where it gets its name, reveal an ancient connection.

So yes, I believe there is a "common root" there, in a manner of speaking. Hannibal and Attila were both nurtured in the culture of the Dragon, were both ruthless killers with an insatiable thirst for power, and, like the Emperors of China and Japan, Europe and Byzantium, believed their right to rule was divine, i.e., "Ba'al has given me grace".

IMHO

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EDIT March 2009: Well bust my buttons, it turns out that both the Huns and Magyars trace back to Nimrod in several myths, and at least the Magyars very likely trace back to the land of the Subartu, which is just north-east of Phoenicia (see post on page 7).

These posts are coming fast lately, to anyone interested in and following this stuff, forgive me, I know it can be alot to digest.

I was poking around the line of Rollo the Viking (direct ancestor of William the Conqueror). I think this invasion of northern France and the resulting mix of French Cathar-leaning nobility and the Viking invaders was of high importance in the shaping of our world, and it goes without saying that this event produced both the Norman rulers of England and the Knights Templar (as well as many of the other crusaders). Oh, and did I mention that the treaty of St. Claire Sur-Epte which bequeathed Normandy to Rollo was signed in the year 911? BTW to be clear, the "St. Claire" in the name of that treaty referred to Rollo, he is the patriarch of the family which goes by the name Sinclair (as well as variations of the name including Claire, Clare and Claro.)

Well, as I was poking around I saw the name Saye and decided to look it up at houseofnames. The Saye family is seated in Shropshire, as were the Stewarts. The crest is four large red and gold checks and the family was granted lands and title by William the Conqueror after Hastings, which is no surprise because they were related to him, but I also noticed that atop the crest was the head of a bull.



This piqued my interest because I knew that the crest of the Cheney family, who also were granted lands and title by William the Conqueror, featured the horns of a bull atop their crest.

So I hurried back to JDA pedegree and looked to see if by chance the Cheney family connected with the Saye family somewhere (while realizing that this would connect Dick Cheney directly to Rollo the Viking).

Guess what?


Rollo (the Viking)
Guillaume "Longsword"
Richard "the Fearless" of Normandy
Geoffroi de Brione
Gilbert "Crispin" , Count de Brienne
Richard (FitzGilbert) de Clare
-
Hawise de Clare - marries Geoffrey de Saye
William de Saye
-
-
-
Agnes de Saye, marries Alexander de Cheney
William de Cheney (1275  -1333)


http://fabpedigree.com/s093/f753089.htm
http://fabpedigree.com/s012/f004534.htm
http://fabpedigree.com/s038/f070063.htm

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Up there you'll notice Gilbert "Crispin" , Count de Brienne - I recalled that Ladon-Gog author "John" had written a chapter about the Crispins and that somehow they were important, so I first looked up that crest -



Whether that evokes the stripes of the American flag or a Viking sail, take your pick. (This Gilbert Crispin is so named for Richard I's wife's side, her name was Gunnora d'Aunou (Anjou) whose father was Herbastus de Crepon Prince of Denmark.)

Here is the Ladon-Gog chapter I remembered, titled 'A Crispin Claro Picture, or, the Flinstones were Hohens'.

http://www.tribwatch.com/crispin.htm

Hopefully I can post more on this after I spend some time struggling through that chapter - looks interesting (maybe I can finally figure out this 'Flinstone' business too ).

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EDIT: BTW, I've been convinced that Rollo was certainly descended from Woden, he has plenty of royal Vikings in his heritage according to the JDA pedigree site. You can get back to Woden from Rollo by any one of a number of routes.

http://fabpedigree.com/s038/f070063.htm

For example, Rollo's great-great grandfather Olaf II on the maternal side of his father (Ragnvald Jarl of More) leads back to Woden through Olafr Tretelgju (Tree-hewer) INGJALDSSON's mother, and possibly his (Olafr's) father as well. On Rollo's father's paternal side the connections are even more numerous. I won't bore you with all the long names and possible routes, but there are many ways to get back to Woden from Rollo, in other words, the Scandinavian royal families in the early years of Viking rule were heavily inbred.

A note about the above Olafr Tretelgju ("Tree-hewer") Ingjaldsson -

http://theobryans.com/jwo8.htm



The above mentioned Halfdan Whiteleg would have been Rollo's great-great-great-great grandfather, all paternal links.

OMG.


I have been struggling to get a deeper understanding of this, and reading more of John's chapters. In one he talks about Kerman, a province of Iran north of and near the straight of Hormuz. This area is a candidate for a mythical land of "Aratta", a fabulously rich and ancent land described in Sumerian myth. The term Kerman, John points out, appears to have named Mt. Hermon (alternately called Mt. Sion), and the Greek god Hermes. The similarities between Hermes, Hermon, Hormuz and Kerman should be obvious. Add Armenia to that list too.

John writes:

http://www.tribwatch.com/kizzuwatna.htm

For any who were confused by that last little bit, Arthur somehow traces to the Halybes. (This may just be John's theory.) The Halybes were a people that lived on the eastern coast of the Black Sea, the Greeks considered the Halybes the inventors of Iron. This area was Colchis, connected (along with Phrygia in modern Turkey) with the origins of the cult of Cybele and was known later by the Byzantines as Lazica, evoking Laz and (as John likes to put it) the Laz Dragon. Halybes also equates with or relates to "Khalib", and another version of Halybe is "Chalybe". To get an idea of how interchangeable these terms are, a quote from New World Encyclopedia about the discovery of iron -



The use of iron actually traces back to Sumer ... how interesting that it was thought by the Greeks to have been invented by a peoples living in the Caucasus going by a Chaldean derived name!!??? (Remember, Chaldea was the source of Kabbalah.)

Anyway, with all that noted, look at this term for Arthur's sword: Ex-Calib-er (!!!).

(The "Ex" in the name of the sword wasn't just added in front of Khalib for laughs, the Exe is a river in Devon in southwestern England.)

Back to the thrust of this, 'Kerman' is an Iranian province north of the straight of Hormuz.



Early in the thread I talked about Dilmun, which some believe refered to modern Bahrain on the southern coast of the Persian Gulf. Dilmun is described as the location of the Sumerian creation myth, but another Sumerian text has events which happened in Aratta as preceding the settlement of Dilmun, so this "Aratta" is just as primal. Aratta, notably, was the home of Innana the supreme Sumerian goddess known as Ishtar in Akkad (and is certainly the model for Cybele, Isis, Rhea, Sophia and every other "Great Mother" diety), and it is at Aratta that a romance and sacred marriage between her and Dumuzi, a shepherd of royal lineage took place. It is here, as per Sumerian myth, that the blood of royal mortals and the gods mix.

It is suspected that the tale of Innana and Dumuzi was the inspiration for Solomon's Song of Songs.

For anyone who wants to read about Innana and Dumuzi,
http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/gods/ladi...adyinanna2.html

So, was Aratta in Kerman? We'll never know for sure, but in other myths Mt. Hermon occupies the same role as the location of the mixing of divine and mortal, for it was there that the angels fell to earth - and Mt. Hermon is referred to in the book of Enoch as ARDOS.

"And the angels, the children of heaven, saw [beautiful women] and desired them... And they were altogether two hundred; and they descended into Ardos, which is the summit of Hermon." (I Enoch 6:6)

...Make concessions for the lack of written vowels in classical Hebrew, and ARDOS is very close to ARATTA (!). (Tolkien didn't miss this trick, he placed his Lord of the Rings trilogy in a land called ARDA.)

Anyway, firstly I about fell off my chair when I read that ""Historical documents refer to Kerman as ... 'Germania'" (!!!!!!).

And even more profound, when I went back to the first page of this thread to check what I had written about Dilmun and the Sumerian creation myth, I glanced at the little map I had posted -


http://www.indoeurohome.com/Meluhha-Dilmun.html

And what do I see written across the area corresponding to Kerman?

MAGAN !!!

Just ran into this now, incredible work Sanders!



Can you sum it all up in 1 or 2 paragraphs for me and other new to the thread? B)

That's a tall order. I'll try to keep it brief and hit the main points -

The roots of the big-time Jewish bankers, the Franco-Viking elite who have arguably been running the western world for a thousand years, and the Templar Knights (also Franco-Viking, also big-time bankers, and instrumental in the formation of Freemasonry) to name the major "conquering" entities which have shaped our world (and are still in charge IMO!), are the same. They can be traced to Ancient Greece and Anatolia (modern Turkey), and before that to Egypt, the Levant (modern Israel/Lebanon), and Mesopotamia, ultimately coming together in Sumer (circa five or so thousand years ago).

The symbol of the ruling elite which led these migrations was/is the Dragon (also the Lion). You can see both the dragon and other serpent-like characters everywhere in conjunction with kings and nobles, on family crests, on temples, and in legends, from China to ancient Greece to Britain to Meso-America. The Dragon in the form of Draco, the constellation, also happens to occupy the heavens at the center of the other 12 main constellations at true theoretical north, which the Sumerians understood (because it appears that it was they who named the original constellations).

Various families which have claimed ruling status have intermarried for as long as records exist and perhaps millenia, and certain marriages can be viewed as an intentional effort to keep the bloodlines pure and representative of the early branches. One main branch (this is my own hypothesis and I am constantly trying to confirm or refute it) traced through Egypt and then back into the Levant and Greece, and another pooled in the Black Sea region. Phoenica (and by extension Armenia?) are not so clear-cut, which is why I find it significant that Harmonia who was the wife of Cadmus (who passed through Phoenica from Egypt to Greece in myth and slew the Ares dragon) is now our word for co-existance, "Harmony". These two branches are represented in the staff of Cadusius or "Hermes staff" IMO (two snakes - used to this day as the symbol of medicine). The branches clashed at the battle of Troy, while the Templars emerged (two thousand years later) from Champaigne, an area previously called Troyes, further revealing this Trojan heritage of the Germanic and Scandinavian tribes that are the biggest (though not necessarily the most important) part of this story. There are also some alleged Asian anscestors of Viking kings (including Woden) who are listed on genealogy charts as xxx "of the Trojans".

Jews have been deceived to support Zionism IMO. While I believe the bible is part mythical just as the Greek myths were and, like the Greek myths is a sort of code and is useful to a point in figuring this out, to couch it in biblical terms this heritage I speak of traces back to an Aryan/Hebrew mix, but not related necessarily in any way to Abraham, much less his Israelite descendents, there were many other descendents (of Noah) farther up the chain. These details of what tribes are represented by what people, both in the Bilbical genealogy and in the Greek myths are very confusing and I'm still trying to get a handle on it, but read this, written by a guy ("John" from Texas) who is way ahead of me on this dragon-cult business:

"Our "king" derives from "koning," which looks like a "Cohen" variation. Was Europe (i.e. the Roman Empire divided by clay and iron) ruled by Cohen blood?? ...These persons are spelled like so: NOT JEWISH, NOT ISRAELITE, BUT DRAGON HEBREW." [His capitals]

The "dragon cult" ultimately, I believe, traces back to Sumer.



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EDIT: For anyone reading just this post, please don't miss this upstairs
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10767654

Colchis btw is modern Georgia, which sports the same flag as crusader-ruled Jerusalem and the Templar knights. The country is ruled by the Bagratoni clan, who are primarily and anciently connected to this dragon cult - so it should be no surprise that the original flag of England was this same red cross ... the cross of St. GEORGE. Read: Gog.
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EDIT II: You can see from the above Sumerian image (of Mushussu) that the concept of the two snakes entwined around a staff predates the Greeks. This might pose some trouble for my theory that the two snakes represented two main branches (of the "dragon cult"). There is some speculation that the snakes were Scylla and Charybdis, two monsters (in Greek myth), but that again cannot explain the same symbology used earlier in Sumer. (Thought I should clear that up.)

I went to a school called, St. Georges.
The head master asked me if i would like to leave,
after six months.
I said, yes!

The best thing I ever did.
Or otherwise, I would be....

...your guess.

(your server, rather than your servant.)

cheers,
your serv(ant), lunk.

I am ye,
and you are me,
and we are all, together.

...yes, lunk.

If I'm to be a servant of the cult of St. George, I'll take this one -

So you didn't notice from comparing several of these maps that "Scythia" appears to have moved around considerably then?

http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ancient%20...s/AncientL.html

I noticed different directions, bearings/headings, distances, etc. from one to the others (but old maps were "crude" some will say).

Now the "Anatolia"/Turkish thing is very interesting and new to me. One of my very "interesting"/scary associates was Christened "Anatoly." I'm reasonably certain that at least 2 of his immediate family members were Spetsnaz (and I wouldn't rule out Russian Mafiya connections there just yet).

Yeah, it was really big, and there were lots of tribes. Quite confusing.

I was kidding Sanders!! But you did a great job of it, this stuff is all so damn confusing, but I think there is a lot of truth to these bloodlines and the ruling elite....thanks for your work on this.

Thanks, yes it is confusing, just like all history, but there are fundamental ideologies and loyalties that run through it all.

I don't imagine for a second that any of these bloodlines run all the way back to Sumer uninterrupted, and even if certain royals believe they do there are those times when infidelity goes unrecorded or unexposed. But, there is a "tree", so to speak. What's interesting is that the elite have been trying to hide what this tree really looks like from the world since the days of the Greek myths, but are/were arrogant enough to immortalize themselves and their ancestors by leaving clues.

What was before Sumer?

[Disclaimer:

I wrote the posts in this thread (those under my name) as I embarked on a path of research, motivated purely by an intense curiosity, and I marked my discoveries along the way here in this thread. I was fascinated by the use of occult symbology in our media (and other clues), and the more I investigated the more I saw that the history, in fact "world-view" that we have all been told to accept is mostly balony. (I stand by that 100%.) However I concluded too fast that there was a linear connection between the self-annointed managers of our country (and, to a large and increasing degree, our planet) and an ancient "dragon" culture. And I have (somewhat mistakenly) described this culture as of a "conquering" nature in many of my posts. While I learned a great deal on my search for answers, and while the reader might find some of my posts interesting, I have discovered that my overriding view of the big picture was wrong.

The true dragons were a wise and just sub-race of Kings and Queens of antiquity, and they have been all but gone for a thousand years - exterminated by the Church and her clients, the long string of usurpers who traded loyalty to Rome in return for its (fraudulent) recognition of kinghood. The Templars were not dragons (I don't think), they were rather a military arm of the dragons, from whom they split and pursued their own interests. William the Conqueror may have had some dragon blood in him, but he was first a warrior and his loyalties lied with his own power-grab - he killed many true "dragons" (the elven Picts) during his brutal subjugation of the north of England - and, the descendents of his warrior co-usurpers from Normandy, "bully-boys" as they have been described, who comprised the moneyed-elite of America throughout much of its history, were no better despite their claims of blue-bloodedness. Far worse are the bankers, often the descendents of those Norman colonists, who have taken their place. None of these people who have caused so much anquish in pursuit of their own monetary gain throughout modern history are "true" dragons, though I suspect they cling to imagined thread-thin connections to those ancient families, while they have hijacked the symbology and 'religion' (for lack of a better word) of the ancient cults in pursuit of their own bloated vision of themselves as overlords of us "stupid sheep".

If you want to know about the true "dragon blood-line", don't bother with my drivel, read instead "The Dragon Legacy" or any other of the works of Nicholas de Vere.]





Atlantis? A big flood? People just going about their business? [EDIT: Ubaid?] I dunno. But with Sumer and Egypt cities apparently become more organized under a ruling class - at least that's the most recent record of civilization on that scale that we know of.

Hey FM, one of the most significant narratives of history (which has been completely covered up) is that of the Huns into Hungary and from there right into the royal house of Scotland. There are two posts about this which start here that I think, in my humble opinion, are quite interesting.

And speaking of the Arpads (which those two posts are about), while cruising around trying to pick up clues I recently saw the Arpad name written alongside a similar term - Arpad/Arvad. I wondered what Arvad referred to and googled it. I got Arvad, a son of Canaan. Wahh!?? I image-googled it hoping maybe a map somewhere would come up and got the message, "did you mean Arwad?" - 'sure, why not', I thought, and I clicked results for Arwad: It's an island off the coast of Syria, up a ways from Sidon and Tyre.





That shocked me, because all I knew about the Arpads was that they led the Magyars into Hungary and that they were descended from Attila, whose roots were Hun and Chinese. I NEVER expected a connection to the holy land ... but I'm not altogether surprised.

Regarding that last post about the similarity of terms Arpad & Arvad, this is obviously not enough to make a concrete connection between the early Arpad rulers of Hungary and this "son of Canaan" or the Syrian island that was named for him (or Arvad was named after). To do so is speculation. Admittedly, nearly everything in this thread is to some degree or another, speculation. However, in defense of speculation, science follows the same modus operandi, a hypothesis is proposed, predictions are made, and experiments are carried out to test it. In my case of an Arpad-Arvad connection and in that spirit, I should then go look for other connections - maybe the maternal lineage of, say, the first Arpad, king of the Magyars.

Should I expect to find a connection to the holy land somewhere? Honestly, I don't expect to find it, the records don't go back far enough. I expect that this route follows peoples of Canaan (Phoenicia) from the holy land into the Caucasus and Scythia long before Arpad lived - we're talking about the period of the expulsion of the northern tribes.

But lets look anyway. I'm looking up Arpad King of the Magyars now. ...I do in fact find a possible holy-land connection, on the maternal side of Arpad's grandfather Emse of the Magyars.
http://fabpedigree.com/s020/f123107.htm

This link is vague and no specific names are given, just a possible link to certain Kabars including the name Levi (Levi was the priest tribe, connected to the Cohen name, just as Cohen associates with Kagan, the priestly kings of Khazaria). Kabar tribes (along with Magyar tribes) however ARE accepted as being part of the Hun migration from Khazaria into proto-Hungary with the Arpads leading. Almost nothing is known about the Kabars, but they were a subset of the Khazars and the JDA pedigree site gives this information:

"it is known that the Jewish Kabar tribe was prominent among the early Magyars. However no genealogic details are known"

Is there any other evidence that this "Arpad" name/term derived from Canaan? Even circumstantial?

Yes, albeit speculative - the Arpad dynasty migrated up into (and married into families of) Bavaria and the surrounding Germanic states, from where the Jewish banking elite and the Illuminati and Rosicrucian cults later emerged - and, just as significant in my mind, among the descendents of the royal Arpads were the Drummonds of Scotland, two of whom doled out the money from the British treasury for Hessian troops during the American War of Independence, money which wound up financing the Rothschild banking house.

I should say that I am motivated by things in our world that don't seem to "fit". The physicist Richard Feynman used to say, 'we physicists aren't interested in what we know already, we are interested in what doesn't fit, and why.' (I paraphrase.) - Occult clues hidden in Disney pictures; mock sacrifices at the Bohemian Grove every summer attended by the elite; unwavering support of Zionism - to the point of turning a blind eye to war crimes - by the cream of the American and British political class; the seeing-eye atop the pyramid on the back of the US dollar or atop the Supreme Court building in Israel; Templars, Freemasons, pirates and a politician & spook producing secret society at Yale all using the same cross 'n bones symbol ... and let's not forget, the willingness of the ruling elite to massacre 3000 citizens in New York in order to start their big push to realize their verifiable long-held goal of one-world-government ... these things don't "fit" in the world that I was led to believe existed.

For the record, when I mention the Jewish banking elite I'm not talking about Jews as a people or Judaism as a faith any more than all of the hard working Cheneys of the world should be offended when I point out that Dick Cheney descends from an anscestor who was part of the Norman invasion and in turn descended from Woden the Viking (and imply that that is relevant). IN FACT, look at the branches listed for these famiies at houseofnames - Cohen: German, Irish and Jewish. Levi: French and Jewish (the crest is a triple Chevron, which I'm gonna post about soon, this REALLY firms up a lot of stuff). Kuhn: German & Jewish, another chevron. Bauer: Dutch and German ... this is the Rothschild family and there isn't even a Jewish branch of the family mentioned!!! Loeb: German and English - AGAIN, no Jewish branch of the family named.

And how unbelievably ironic, that the Magan-David, symbol of the Jewish nation (only in relatively recent history it should be noted), should turn out to have been named for a location in IRAN !!???

I'm just trying to understand ... and so I continue to try and firm up these links. But there's something else significant here regarding this proposed Arpad/Arvad connection - it doesn't link Germanic Hebrew elite (I hesitate to even call them Jewish) to Israel proper, but rather to Phoenicia, to the hot-bed of pagan Ba'al worship around Mt. Hermon. That is the whole point (!!!)

This will be a difficult read, but I have been trying to get a handle on this for some time. I'm not going to be talking about the "Gogi"/Apollo-Artemis-connected "wolf-line" Black Sea tribes that produced the Viking/Saxon/Frank invasions of Europe from the north, but rather a different branch which took a route from Greece through Italy. I've ignored this branch only because I didn't understand it. (Maybe I still don't , but without addressing this we can never understand the roots of the all-important Brusse clan who came to rule Scotland.)

This Italian route seems to trace to the Spartans ....who were these people who won the Trojan war? Where were they from? Where did they go? I know they must fit into this dragon-cult business somehow, for they are said in Greek myth to have sprung from the teeth of the Ares dragon (which Cadmus slew). They fit the mould too, they were the supreme fighting force of their time. They waged battle bare-ass naked except for their armor, and when they were stabbing their foes from an unbroken line behind their shields with their hoplite spears and pikes they imagined they were "f#@king" their opponents (as described in Pressfield's Gates of Fire).

I intended to try and dissect John's "Crisp 'n Claro Picture" chapter here, but there was so much background that, without addressing, rendered my goal impossible. It led me on a chase though that may answer that Spartan question. The key is in the similarity of terms such as Sheba, Suebi, Sabini, Savona, Subartu etc., and a related slew of "Sam" terms like Samothrace (hot-bed of Cybele cult activity in Greece), Samosota and even the biblical Samson. I came to understand that this had something to do with a separate influx of "dragon" migration into Europe through Italy giving Swabia and Switzerland their names, but past that I couldn't wrap my head around it. Finally I think I can post something.

It's interesting that my look into both this "Sheba/Subartu/Sam" business and a my curious discovery that the Arpad name of Hungary's early rulers is similar to Arwad, an island off the coast of Syria, both took me to the same local, an area I hadn't looked at before. There is a once-sacred mountain on the coast of Turkey just north of the Syrian border currently known as Mt. Aqraa. It was Mt. Zephon/Zaphon in the bible, and it served as the center of Ba'al worship for pagans living in northern Canaan just as Mt. Hermon did for those living farther south near Israel. The Hittites (a powerful force in ancient Anatolia) called it Mt. Hazi. The Hittites left behind tablets written in Cuneiform, some of them in Akkadian, which points to Mesopotamian roots or influence. They called their own kingdom 'land of the Hatti".



Near this mountain is a river called the Orontes. Meanwhile, there was an early (and long-ruling) dynasty which built up the Armenian empire (circa 1-3 centuries BC) who were called the Orontids. The dynasty that has ruled in Colchis/Georgia for so long (even to this day?) , the Bagratids/Bagrationis, also claim Orontid origins. Wikipedia tells me the Armenian Orontid dynasty harks back to Iranian roots, and that makes me recall what I just learned about the mythical home of the Sumerian goddess Innana, Kerman/Magan, in modern Iran. Then I start to wonder, were the Armenian Orontid dynasty and the Orontes river in northern Syria both named for Orion!???


Just north and around the bend from Mt. Hazi/Zephon is Cilicia in modern Turkey (Anatolia). There were two Cilicias actually, the one that's on all of the maps, and a second one that Greek myths described as being on the west coast of Anatolia near Troy. This western part of Anatolia is referred to as 'Troad', and it's here you find the ancient city of Troy, Lydia, and Mt. Ida which was the center of Cybele/Kybele (the Great Mother) worship that I keep going on about. The king of Thebe (not to be confused with Thebes in Greece) in this second Cilicia in the west was a Greek figure known as Eetion, and he is almost certainly the same person as another guy named Iasion. Eetion/Iasion had a brother, Dardanus, who founded Dardania in this same area on Mt. Ida. Dardanus' brother Iasion is credited with founding certain "mystic rites" practiced on the nearby island of Samothrace, and a group of Dardanians also were said to have migrated there. Cadmus passed through Samothrace too in his search for Europa, who had been stolen by Zeus from her home in Phoenicia. Cadmus wound up marrying the daughter of Ares (god of War) Harmonia, slew the Ares dragon, planted its teeth in the ground and out sprang the Spartans (as per the myths). (I hope I got all that right - bear with me, all of this should connect quite nicely.)

These "mystic rites" which Eetion/Iasion took to Samothrace were the rites of the Kabeiri (= cult of Cybele). The Kabeiri are associated with (or even the same peoples as) the Corybantes of Colchis/Phrygia:

http://www.maicar.com/GML/CORYBANTES.html



These Great Mother-worshiping cults include the Curetes, who in Greek myth banged their shields together to drown out the cries of the infant Zeus to protect him from being eaten by his father, Cronus (Saturn in Latin). The noisy orgastic rituals performed by these cults are referred to in sources as "Bacchic frenzy" or a "Pyrrhic dance". "Pyr" in Greek means fire, and Bacchus was simply the Roman counterpart of Dionysus, god of wine and "inspirer of ritual madness" (Wiki). Now we see why so many of these tribes which practiced these "mystic rites" are always associated with Dionysus in the Greek myths.

Cybele's consort was Attis, who famously went crazy and whacked off his own genitals, mimicked by Cybele's Corybante Eunich followers perhaps, and definitely later by the Galli priests of Rome when Cybele's cult had become popular there. Attis is often associated with the aforementioned Iasion (brother of Dardanus), and Iason's alter-ego Eetion matches "Attis" even better. Even closer is "Aeetes", who ruled Colchis. All these names and places might be a little confusing, but they all seem to fit neatly into a pattern, the common thread being Great Mother worship.

The geographer Strabo reported that the mother of the Kabeiri was a Thracian woman, Kabeiro. The Greeks had a phrase - "drunk as a Thracian", and they were a wild and fearless people. Ponder on these terms when you place them side by side ... Thracian/Thraco/Dacian/Draco.

There's another word hidden there in the name of the mother of the Kabeiri, Kabeiro ... Kabbalah.

If that doesn't convince, the Halybes of Colchis (where the Corybantes are also usually said to reside) were alternately the Chalybes, and Chaldea was the birthplace of Kabalah mysticism (near Sumer). John has more evidence along these lines, including the idea that horse in Latin may well be Caballo/Cavallo simply because Kabalah worshipping knights rode around on horses (and Thracians were also a horse-peoples). This makes me wonder if all of these Black Sea area terms (like "Khalib") may not also ultimately derive from Kabalah by a simple swapping of syllables, not least because Cybele/Kybele is very close to "Kabalah".

To add even more evidence, I have a 19th century map of the area around Mt. Hazi/Zephon and what do I see plastered across a big area just east of the coast? Chalybonitis !!! This is either an obvious indicator that the Halybes were there at some point, or a direct referrence to Chaldea.



Dionysus, the patron of wine and ritual madness was the son of Zeus and Semele, and 'John' (Ladon-Gog) believes that Semele is where terms like Samothrace got their "Sam" element. There is another island off of Anatolia called Samos, and here you find one of the largest temples ever erected in the Greek theatre - a temple dedicated not to Zeus, but to his wife Hera (in a similar "Great Mother" role).

Another conspicuous "Sam" term is Samson, associated, like Cybele, with Lions and Bees. Samson was of the Tribe of Dan through his father, Manoah. Manoah, Manoah, why does that sound familiar??? It looks like Mannu! Not only was Manu the Hindu progenitor of mankind, but there was a Mannu king of Kerman/Magan. So we're back in Iran again, which is interesting because the Elamites were one of four "winds", the other three being Sumer, Akkad and Subartu - Elam being in modern Iran along the eastern side of the Persian gulf, which included (the home of Sumer's Great-Mother Innana) Kerman. The Kassites of Elam became so powerful that they took over Sumer for a time. The Kassites might not have produced the Hittites or the Hati, but Cati/Hazi/Khassi/Hatti/Hittite and Kassite sure look like related peoples and the Kassites and the Hittites were in fact allied and the royalty families of each intermarried (as did Kassite and Egyptian royalty !!!!). http://www.answers.com/topic/kassites

A map below which shows the land of the Subartu actually has the Kassites and the Kizzuwadna of Cicilia listed as related peoples.

Again, I'm no expert on this stuff, and simply following John's lead with regard to a fundamental connection between Hazi/Cati/Khassi/Hati etc., but these terms seem to closely follow Saba/Sam terms around in place names and I'm trying to get a handle on it. What surprises me most is that it's starting to look like the original hunch I had at the beginning of this thread, that the root of the dragon was in Sumer, is, not only correct, but traceable. (Lately I have no doubt.)

It gets even simpler though ...

John, trying to make sense of something written by Strabo the Geographer:

"...there was this that caught my eye : "...when [Aeskhines' mother] conducted initiations, that [Aeskhines] joined her in leading the Dionysiac march, and that many a time he cried out 'evoe saboe,' and 'hyes attes, attes hyes'; for these words are in the ritual of Sabazios [Zagreos] and the Mother... - Strabo, Geography 10.3.18" (Zagreos brackets not mine).
http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Zagreus.html
I stared at that cry. What did it mean. I went searching online to find the meaning because it wasn't given in the article. I couldn't find the translation. But as I stared at the phrase, knowing that "attes" was Attis, it hit me like a ton of bullion that "saboe" was Kybele! And when I saw that Zagreus was the same as Sabazios, it was like when a man searches for pecans under a pecan tree, months after harvest when nuts are scarce, and when he sees one and stoops to pick it up, he looks forward and sees two more, and as he picks them up he looks slightly to the side and sees four more. ... terms like "Saboe" and "Sabazios" were golden, for they are easily discernible as Sheba terms. Kybele was Sheba, or so I thought at first. In reading on, I realized that the Kybele cult was instead taken over by Sheba Hebrews. However, this does not exclude the possibility that the Kybele cult had itself been founded by an earlier wave of Shebeans into Phrygia, though Dedanites (from northern Syria/Asshur) may have been superior at first.
I went immediately to an article on Sabazios, and learned that the term is to be likely understood as Saba-Zeus or Saba-Dios, and that the Romans viewed it as the cult of "Jupiter Sabazius."...
http://bvio.ngic.re.kr/Bvio/index.php/Sabazios

Sabazios was a Thracian/Phrigian diety, a "nomadic horseman and sky father god", associated with the legend of the Thracian Horseman. Two things worth mentioning ... the conspicuous similarity between the word Kabbalah and the Latin for horse - Caballo, and the fact that this Thracian Horseman legend continued in the guise of dragon-slaying St. George, the patron saint of England. Now that I have talked about Elam and the Kassites, I can add this as well - from Answers.com, "Kassites: Originally one of the Elamite tribes living in the Zagros mountainous district east of Babylon....it is probable that their sacred animal, the horse, was introduced into Mesopotamia. Horse-breeding and riding were established skills among the Kassites."

More evidence that we're getting close to the root of the "dragon-cult" to pile on .... here's a very interesting little page about "Catti" and "Cassi" names which evidence "Hitto-Phoenician" penetration into Britain - most curiously, Cornwall, which was once called Danmoni (the tin-mines of the Tuatha de Danaan).
http://www.jrbooksonline.com/pob/pob_ch16.html

And while I'm digressing, what about that other "Sam" term, our own "Uncle Sam"?? The two most widely accepted explanations for that nickname for the US are detailed here:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/6...in-of-uncle-sam

The two accounts are that either "Sam" was a meat-packer, or that the nickname was started by an army regiment. I'm suspicious of both though for a couple of reasons. The first account was written 30 years after the fact, and the location of Sam Wilson's meat-packing business was, ... Troy (!). The name of the army regiment named in the second version is no less auspicious, the US Light Dragoons. These "myths" take the same form as every other Greek, biblical or Medeival legend I've run into which describes the course of this "dragon-cult", the myth-writers hide the truth and yet leave telling clues ... maybe to amuse themselves. I think our own "Uncle Sam" is yet another nod to Semele, the Orontid Sames kings, Samson and every other Great Mother worshiping "Sam" city and island in the Greek theatre.


If you travel a little ways north along the Euphrates from the area east of Mt. Hazi/Zephon I started at, you get to what was the land of the Subartu in antiquity. I can't resist but point out that Subartu was directly adjacent to what another of these maps posted above has as "Chalybonitis".



Notice that the Kassites and the Kizzuwadna of Cilicia are listed as related peoples (!). Now, look at what the land is called alittle later in history ...



Sophene!!!

When I saw that I about fell off my chair, for I had been reading about Sophia, the "Great Mother" as embraced by the Byzantines and Varangian Rus (see earlier post). The fact that this area was ruled by the Orontids makes it a double whammy.

John associates the Subartu with the Sepharvites, and also with various "Sam" terms, claiming that they all pertain somehow to Sheba, a biblican grandson of Abraham. (This is all unclear, partly because there were several Shebas in the bible.) I didn't see such an affinity between all these terms and was skeptical at first, but there was a city on the Euphrates in Sophene (formerly Subarta) founded by Sames, a ruler of the Orontid dynasty called Samosata. What really convinced me though, was when I stumbled onto a list of Babylonian calender terms -


http://www.livius.org/caa-can/calendar/cal...an.html#Shabatu

So there you have it, Sabatu, Shebat, and Samiyamas all being the same word in different dialects. I'm no expert on this stuff, but I'd imagine that these ancient peoples named their months for gods just like everyone else.

Who are the Sepharvites? Here is what the bible said about them:

2 Kings 17:31

"...and the Sepharvites burned their children in the fire to Adrammelech and Anammelech [solar and lunar dieties] the gods of Sepharvaim."

Now watch John (Ladon-Gog) connect these child sacrificing pagan ways right back to Mt. Zaphon/Hazi:

"Mount Hazi has been identified as the Biblical mount Zephon, but very likely the founders of this city (by that name) were from Zaphon, which, as seen in Zondervan's Bible Atlas (8th printing ), was on the east side of the Jordan in what was the land of Ammon...the very nation (from the blood of Lot and his unknown wife) that the Bible says was the chief carrier of Molech!"

Ahhh, Molech, the cooker of children.

What does all this have to do with the question I posed at the beginning of this post, 'Who were the Spartans'?

It's simple. The terms are practically the same ....

Subartu = Sparta.



More to come ...

These might deserve their own threads, but 2 questions:

1. What about the scythe/Scythia mythology and references (some of which Sanders already covered with the crescent logos)?

2. What was the "history" before Sumeria (when the Phoenicians allegedly "split off" from the Babylonian line)?

EDIT: Strike #2- for some reason, my browser was missing about a dozen posts... Very strange...

dMole, you hit on the fly in the ointment.

There are very-very ancient burial sites in Asia, containing cuneiform-like tablets and/or giant (red-haired ?) bodies buried with horses. I'm a little drunk at the moment, so forgive me for not providing links, but these sites rival Sumer in their age. Did these ancient Asians meet peoples who had migrated up from Sumer to meet around the Black Sea to create Greece's "wolf-line"??

I went back and forth in the beginning of this thread regarding the question of - who was first??? Sumer? Egypt? The Russian Steppes? It's difficult to answer, and I think best to just ignore it and try and follow the threads and see where they lead.

As for the Phoenicians, that too is a little confusing. One would think that they were an offshoot of the Akkadian empire just by the geography, but the Greek myths have Phoenicia being settled by Egyptians. Add on to that, the Phoenicians were traders and most likely provided a link between Sumer and Egypt ... I think that's the key. They were the middle-man between Sumer and Egypt from the beginning, and so the myth-writers and historians can't make up their minds whether to peg the Phoenicians as a product of Sumer or of Egypt - the fact is, they were a product of both, by virtue of their location ... which led to their famous seafaring skills. ( IMHO!!!)

And I love the fact that the "hello" hand - the "high five". was a Phoenician symbol - "Hey, how's it going, let's do business!".

(@ FM: I don't have decent internet service at the moment, just tentative airport connection ... couldn't watch that vid)

deleted

Thanks FM, sorry I overreacted!

FM and I each deleted our posts up there so anyone reading this thread may be scratching their head ... it was just me overreacting in regards to Sitchen. (I've known FM via internet for a pretty long time and he's the greatest guy - which is why I regretted going off the handle about Sitchen and felt bad and removed my own post.)

Zecharia Sitchen puts forth a theory that the Nephilum who are mentioned in the bible, or the Annunaki of Sumerian legends, were actually extraterrestrials from a theoretical planet Nibiru who messed with the genetics of humans, resulting in the start of humans' cultural and technological explosion. There well may be an extra planet out there (some call it planet X) which enters our neighborhood every 3000 years or so, I don't know.

Sitchen's theory has a couple things going for it, it potentially explains the seemingly sudden rise of civilization in places like Sumer, and provides an explanation for the various myths which describe angels falling to earth to give rise to giants or a superior class of people. It has some problems as well, for one, some scholars have a problem with Sitchen's conclusions regarding the original texts - Nibiru apparently means "crossing" in ancient Sumerian, and is allegedly not mentioned in the cuneiform texts in the specific guise of a planet. (Source)

I really don't have a problem discussing Sitchen, but if we did I'd probably want to move this whole thread into the Alternative Theories forum. If anyone wants to open a thread in Alt. Theories to discuss the pros and cons of Sitchen's hypothesis, they'd be welcome to do that. I'll admit that I do my fair share of speculating in this thread, and I know it might seem bizzare that I'd have a thread about a "dragon blood-line" and yet have a problem discussing extraterrestrials. But I would hope that the kind of speculation I've been doing is best-guessing where the historical and genealogical infomation is lacking - which is qualitatively different IMO as that which requires belief in aliens. And I'll admit, who knows, maybe the government does have a few "greys" hidden somewhere, and maybe Sitchin is on to something (for all I know). But that's a topic for a different thread, if that's OK. This thread bites off more than it can chew as it is just dealing with the movement of conquering culture (dragon-cult) from Sumer & Egypt into Europe (POST-"fallen angels"). Again, if anyone wants to open a thread in Alt Theories about Sitchen, go for it.

And speaking of this "dragon-cult", the last time I was in England was 2 decades ago. I just ran across this ... I had no idea that the British Pound-coin had THIS character on it!!!



Ohh, aren't they cute, those dragons, those symbols of divinely sanctioned rule by the privileged few over the uninitiated many. They TM're beginning to get a little arrogant, don't you think? And btw the British don't have the copyright on this symbol or its significance ... Paul Revere, a Mason, and his fellows met at the Green Dragon Tavern, where the Boston Tea Party was planned.

(Doesn't THAT screw with your head!!!)

This is a pretty long thread so I'll go through it after this. I just wanted to reply to the initial post

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"each precession from zodiacal age to age takes 2150 years, so for the earth to complete this wobble and come back to the same axial place takes around 25 hundred years."
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Just wanted to correct that the precession of the equinoxes takes 25,771.5 years (it looks like you just made a typo by putting hundred there). The wikipedia source stated it was the 2000 rate so I assume the number may alter over very large amounts of time.


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"in the Zeitgeist movie. Yes, sun worship is a big part of all this pagan stuff. But there is another way of looking at it I think, there is Draco, the dragon, I like to think of it as the 13th constellation, smack dab in the middle of these other 12 constellations, at true theoretical north (i.e. directly north if you correct for the earth's slow wobble).
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I thought I'd mention the fact that actually, their is a 13th constellation of the 'zodiac' (constellations along the ecliptic which the Sun appears to "reside" within during the years as the Earth rotates around the Sun) nobody seems to mention. This is the constellation Ophiuchus ... the "serpent charmer" or "serpent holder".

In the sky Ophiuchus is shown holding the constellation Serpens which is actually broken into two parts ... Serpens Caput (serpent's head) and Serpens Cauda (serpent's tail) but both of thoese are the same constellation . In older times, Ophiuchus and the Serpens were considered one constellation.





Ophiuchus was known as the Greek's Asclepius and the Rod of Asclepius reveals the connection. This rod is a staff with a snake winding around it and is used today as the proper medical symbol.


The Caduceus of Hermes (or Roman's Mercury) is sometimes mistakenly used for medicine but that is an error.


Ophiuchus represented medicine and some claim the connection to snake handling was a reference to earlier times of the importance of healers in curing dangerous snake bites.

I have read reference to snakes association with being able to discover healing herbs.

I am reminded of a show I saw years ago about animals who used various plants in different ways. Some birds put certain herbs in their nests which warded off certain bacteria and helpded protect the eggs. Certain large cats (I believe in South America ... jaguar)ate certain plants which gace them hightened eyesite and alertness.

I'm not sure what snakes might lead people to discoever in the plant and herb world but a lot of this ancient herb and plant knowledge is lost to modern humans or is only known to people specifically interested in herbs.


Astrologers apparently ignore Ophiuchus even though astronomically speaking, the Sun lies within the boundaries of the constellation far longer than it does within Scorpius (Scorpio to the astrologers). Of course, these boundries were officially set in more recent times and I'm not sure how longer ancient viewers said that the Sun lied within Ophiuchus.

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Regarding the death of the Sun idea in late fall, around -1 BC (and a wide margin of centuries around then), the Sun would be within Libra starting the middle of October. This would be the declining towards winter.

Actually, there are two stars within Libra (the scales) that are named:


Zubenelgenubi (alpha Librae) = from distorted arabic for "southern claw"
Zubeneschamali (beta Librae) = from distorted arabic for "northern claw"


The ancient Greeks did not have a constellation Libra as it was seen as the claws of Scorpius (I have seen reference to the Scorpius as a "double sign")


These reference the time when these stars were seen as part of Scorpius (so longer claws). As October passes into Novermber, the Sun is going through Scorpius but around the 5th of November starts to reside below Ophiuchus feet (within the boundary of that constellation today).

I have to wonder if the bite of the Scorpion causes the symbolic death of the Sun where it continues to decline but the healing by Ophiuchus represents the power that makes the Sun's decline slow by December 21 and allows the Sun to be hearled and renewed to regain it's increasing elevation after December 24 or 25 or so (symbolically representing the reserection of the Sun.


So I have to wonder if Ophiuchus the medicinal snake-bite healer might have symbolically cured the bite from the Scorpion and been the mythological cause for the SUn's eventual cure and regaining of power and elevation in the sky after the winter solstice.

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I wonder how the Babylonian constellations compared to the Greeks. Since the Babylonian calendar had 12 months, it seems comparible to ours. I'm ot sure right now if there was a comparible idea in their zodiac involving what I just imagined above (what I said above is just an idea and I don't know if it is true or not). It's something I'd like to look into.

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Incidentally, the Coptic calendar based on the ancient egyptian still has 13 months.


http://www.copticchurch.net/easter.html



An interesting note is that the beginning of this calendar is on Sept 11

(Sept 12 in a leap year)


Another interesting note is that the first month starting on Sept 11 was originall for the Egyptian god Thoth. The Greeks saw this as their Hermes which is the Roman's Mercury


Did you know that at the time of impact for Flight 11 at the WTC on Sept 11, 2001, the planet Mercury was right on the eastern horizon just starting to rise


That to me is a very strange "coincidence" and actually is one of the things that makes me think that particular time was selected by the planners due to their concern for astronomcial alignments and ancient mythology or ideas.



amongst other things, Mercury was the god associated with markets, merchants, commerce (all with the latin root 'merx' in them) and even theivery.


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I'm not sure right now how ancient Egyptian constellations were and how they represented their months. I think there are a number of differences to classical Greek ones were are left with as official constallations today (mostly ... there are some more modern ones invented by explorers in southern sky ....some of which are rather boring ship parts and pieces of equipment LOL)

Thanks, zetetic0void

Yeah, even though the Hermes staff is used alot apparently the correct symbol for medicine is this -



There are a few other little glitches in this long thread (often widely held misconceptions that I repeat and then later in the thread discover better information). I should probably go through the whole thing and clean it up ...

Anyway, any corrections are welcome

I was going through this thread today and collecting bits I wanted to respond to. For now, I'll just post this one part.

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Actually, the constellation has a head marked by the star named 'Meissa' and two others labelled phi1 and phi2 Orionis (greek letters were used in labelling many bright stars in all constellations).





The name Meissa was apparently an error by someone named Firuzabadi where the name was applied to gamma Geminorum too (Alhena or Almeisan).


Al Ferghani and Al Tizini knew it as "Ras al Jauzah" ... the Head of Jauzah


~ some other notes ~

The star Betelgeuse in Orion comes from gradually distorted arabic of "Ibt al Jauzah" - the armpit of the Central One

The star Rigel in Orion came from arabic of 'Rijl Jauzah al Yusra' - Left leg of Jauzah

(some of this from "Star Names - their lore and meaning" by Richard Hinckley Allen (originally published in 1899)




One name for Orion by the arabs was "al Jabbar" - 'the giant' (makes me wonder if that word is how basketball legend 'Kareem Abdul-Jabbar' got his muslim name!)


The name 'Orion' may have a linkage to the Akkadian "Ura-anna" - The Light of Heaven



According to the Egyptians, the stars of Orion (partially?) made up their constellat ion "Sahu". This was regarded as the "soul or incarnation of the great God of the afterworld , Oriris" . "On wall reliefs at the Temple of Denderah, he is shown journeying through the heavens in his celestal boat followed by Sothis (Sirius) who is identified as the soul of Isis and is shown as a kneeling cow with a star between her horns." (Burnham's Celestial Handbook)

The mention of Sothis as the star Sirius (brightest star in the sky) as between two horns of the cow - star, horns and cow apparently symbolising Isis - might lead into the symbols of the star and the inverted "moon crescent shape"

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19400/19400-h/images/129.jpg


http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19400/19400-h/images/117.jpg


came from this site which looks interesting


http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19400/19400-h/v1b.htm



This from the Pyramid Texts (old writings from ancient Egypt)


"The Great One has fallen... His head is taken by Re, his head is lifted up... Behold, he has come as Orion... Behold Osirs has come as Orion" (Burnham's Celestial Handbook)

(Their name for Orion would have been labelled as "Orion' in this English)



That sounds similar to the text mentioned in this thread about John the Baptist's head. But the constellation does appear to have a head in the sky.



I have this book in print but I just found a copy online you can look through. For astro-mythology it has a lot of obscure things even for something originally from 1899)


http://books.google.ca/books?id=_GUDis0bET...3&ct=result



This image is interesting

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19400/19400-h/images/128.jpg


It shows a bright star above Orion. According to Stellarium (which figures in precession of the equinoxes), setting the time back to around 4000 BC (and a huge range of centuries around this), at the vernal equinox, the Sun was above Orion around April 25






~ One more interesting subject regarding the Sphinx ~

Far back in history, the Summer solstice point was in the constellation Leo (although I don't know if they saw a lion there so I'd have to investigate this to be sure).

People have speculated that the Sphinx was built as a representation of Leo during the era when the Sun was in Leo during the summer solstice. At around 2000BC ara, the summer solstice near the bright star Regulus might have lead to this star's name eventually even making it down to the Roman era as (Regulus being from 'Rex') still associated with Kingliness (as apparently it had for 3000 years before then)




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A more modern associated note is the idea of the existance of something called the 'Federal triangle' in the US capitol of Washington DC as having been planned into the layout based on particular stars in the sky. The stars Regulus, Arcturus and Spica form an almost right triangle in the sky and some researchers suggest the designers of Washington have these represented in the streets.


"
The White House represents Arcturus, the guardian star, supposed to confer renown and prosperity.

The Capitol represents Regulus, the “Little King.” It shows that Congress is King, ruling from the Capitol, the place of power and command.

The Washington Monument represents Spica. On star maps, Spica is in the wheat ear held by Virgo, and so it represents future growth, nourishment, wealth, renown, and advancement."

from http://novoordoseclorum.blogspot.com/2009/...seclorum-1.html



After looking at this in Google maps and also as the alleged symbolic triangle of three stars in Stellarium, I also started wondering what the Pentagon might represent in the sky. This is pure speculation but the Pentagon is sort of in a similar relation as the star Alpha Centauri is compared to these stars in the sky (Alpha Centauri can't be seen above possible Florida)







I then wondered if the Lincolm Memorial might represent the bright stars Antares in the constellation Scorpius.

Of course this is all pure speculation due to my reading that the Federal Triangle might be represented by Regulus, Spica and Arcturus


In Albert Pike's "Morals and Dogma, you can read references to Spica, Regulus, Arcturus and more. I haven't searched that to see if there's anything although I had read something small somewhere suggesting the Freemason 5-pointed star (and even the stars on the US flag were based on Spica although most feel Sirius is the star referred to).

http://books.google.ca/books?id=1JmFAtpvf4...2&ct=result


Some of this is vague and I don't know if any of this is supported by real facts but it's something to maybe research

I guess I shouldnt'y have imbedded those images from www.gutenberg.org



Sothis - Sirius

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19400/19400-h/images/129.jpg


http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19400/19400-h/images/117.jpg



Sahu-Orion with what might be the Sun above him at vernal equinox up to 4000 BC

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19400/19400-h/images/128.jpg




-----------

Here's even more pure speculation which could be total nonsense but I sw these unproven visual connections anyway.





Could the Potomac River represent the Milky Way at that region of the sky?

Could the south celestial pole (not visible from latitude of Washington DC anyway) be represented by the Pentagon...and why?


Again ....I warn that this is pure speculation with 0 evidence. Something possibly to investigate.

I didn't know that. Isis is indeed usually shown with the horns of a bull, so it's pretty easy to associate her with Taurus, and since Osiris is said to have resided in Orion, you have a significant "pairing", Taurus and Orion, Isis and Osiris, female and male, the cow and the hunter. That's not a fact, it's just speculation of course, but I'm not the first one to propose it by any means.

As for Orion's "missing head", I don't doubt you, zetetic0void. Again, I was speculating, and again, I'm not the only one to point out that Orion appears to be headless. What made that idea meaningful enough to me to post it, is the correllation of relationships between Horus and Osiris, Jesus and St. John, and the fact that Christ and St. John's birthdays were fixed at the Winter and Summer solstices. Again, to me it's a case of "pairing", and significant in my mind because the organized Catholic Church (like Akhenaton) tended to emphasize a single figure (Christ/Sun diety) or to lesser degree a trinity, while the pagan, Gnostic, or Kabbalah oriented sects emphasized pairings, usually male and female (reflecting the deeper meaning of the Magan-David?), be it Isis and Osiris, Christ and Mary, Jesus and St. John or Cybele and Attis.

I'm curious, zetetic0void, what do you make of the hypothesis of a correlation between the pyramids of Giza and the belt of Orion?

"I'm curious, zetetic0void, what do you make of the hypothesis of a correlation between the pyramids of Giza and the belt of Orion?"
---------

I've heard that before and it does look like it's possible . The three puramids are slightly not in a row and their sizes can corrolate to the magnitudes (brightnesses) of the belt stars


Alnitak ... mag 1.85 (lowest and most eastern)

Alnilam ... mag 1.65 (middle)

Mintaka ... mag 2.40 ( upper and most western)


I'm not sure if the two larger pyramids have different measurements of their bases. It would be interesting if the middle one was slightly largest as that's the brightest star.


I'm not sure if the difference between magnitude 1.65 and 1.85 was noticable (and I never made a point of comparing those two stars' brightnesses myself in real life as I wasn't thinking of the pyramids whenever I saw Orion). Ancient observers (pre-telescope by millenia) were pretty accurate about things.


There are apparently some indications of other pyramids in the area representing other stars...

http://doernenburg.alien.de/alternativ/orion/ori00_e.php


Also the location of all of these next to the Nile perhaps was a reflection of Orion in relation to the Milky Way (Orion, Canis Major/Sirius being in the Milky Way opposite the side of the sky in the direction of the brighter central area of the Milky Way where Scorpius and Sagittarius lie ... the whole thing loops around the whole sky as we are in it in the plane of it's disk)


The Sphinx as representing Leo may be something too (although I don't know for certain the extent of Egypt's constellations ... especially early on)


----------------
"As for Orion's "missing head", I don't doubt you, zetetic0void"
----------------

It is interesting that that Egyptian story did mention "The Great One has fallen... His head is taken by Re, his head is lifted up... Behold, he has come as Orion... Behold Osiris has come as Orion" (Burnham's Celestial Handbook)" which does sound like it could relate to John the babtist story.


I mentioned that one of the stars for the head of Orion was referred by a name by Al Tizini ... he was from the 1500's so ideally, I should look much further back for evidence that those three stars represened the head.


I have read that the two fainter ones had given the impression of a haziness (probably due to them being faint and near each other and "nebulousity" can be an illusion in such cases). They were therefore seen as bad omens. I figure any object that looked hazy to ancient astronomer/astrologers might have a cultural label of danger attached to them as comets look hazy too ........and comets were bad omens - I am guessing strongly that this is due to a ingrained cultural rememberence of events in the past of large meteoroid impacts (who knows, maybe even causing tsunami-induced 'Great Flood' of Gilgimesh and the Bible stories) that followed close approaches of major comets in prehistory).


I have read that some stars of Gemini were also part of the Egyptian's 'Sahu' and that what we see as Orion was part of their Sahu constellation.


After trying to investigate Egyptian mythology a bit , I see that there is a lot of changing of gods and goddesses and shifting of their characteristics (I saw that with Thoth and Seshat/Ma'at involving what I saw as a transfer of more credit for discovery of writing from the female goddess to the male Thoth ... even though in pre-agriculture, women are said to have developed writing while men were off in the woods LOL. So the attachment of giving writing to humans is probably more appropriate as a goddess characteristic... hmmm, I wonder if that's why Eve is told about the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge in the symbolic Eden story which I feel is vaguelly memorial of the transition into agricultural culture in distant history). Because the time interval was millenia, the precession of the equinoxes would have made old beliefs regarding star locations obselete in relation to their need for seasonal indicators of time (ie, what stars rose after sunset at what time of year so they could judge when to plant seeds etc).

Anyway, Egyptian mythology looks confusing as hell. Because I learned the constellations when I was a teenager, I also learned some Greek mythology that goes with much of that so I know that a bit better.

One thing to be wary of is assuming Egyptians had the same constellations. I'm thinking that Babylonian ones more closely lead into being used by the Greeks and then Romans.

Also becuase the Egyptian agriculture centred around cycles of the Nile and it's flooding (I think they also had 3 "seasons") in relation to their activities, their use of stars as symbols and indicators of time would have been different than somewhere away from there and perhaps more northern where seasonal indicators for agriculture might have been more firmly attached to mainly the angle of the Earth's axis towards the Sun at different times of year ... making their observation of stars at different times of year have different meaning as time indicators for planting, harvesting etc...


The whole thing is pretty complicated and there's a ton of even regional star lore just due to certain yearly weather occuring in one region when some star happens to be rising at some time (the people then thought that star actually caused such things when it was just a simultaneous coincidence. Then after 1000 years or whatever , precession of the equinoxes detroyed the coincidence and this connection might have been forgotten or even remembered but the meaning forgotten)


I think we need to be careful assuming certain regional cultures had comparible star lore .... so something like Zeitgeist might make too concrete a connection at spots that might not actually have been a connection in reality.


----------

Some of your earlier symbols in this thread of the crescent and the star made me wonder if it was the moon and sun, why was the crescent oriented so the points encircled the Sun. In the real sky, the curved bulge of the Moon crescent always points toward the Sun as that is the edge illuminated. Of course they could alter that to make a shape they wanted.


As far as Sirius being between the horns for the Sothis (wish those images had shown up ... even the non-imbeded ones won't show), I have read that the Milky Way (Orion and Canis Major being within the area of the 'winter' region of the Milky Way.... being roughly opposite Scorpius & Sagittarius in the sky) was connected to this cow with Sirius between the horns .... the Milky Way seen as this cow's milk!


Even our word for 'galaxy' comes from reference to milk ...

Greek ... 'kyklos galaktikos' = milky circle

Latin ... 'via lactea'

-------------

I'm not sure if there's a pattern of stars around Sirius they saw as horns (I can't see anything obvious in Stellarioum and I can't remember anything sticking out in real life) but perhaps they saw a cow there just due to the Milky Way and their idea of milk from the cow.

On the "solar disk"/Taurus/Bull/Marduk/Isis thing- that is a prominent symbol for both the Egyptians and Rosicrucians (and Carthage/Ba'al worshippers too, I'll wager).

FWIW, Moloch/Molech was also depicted as a bull (and was a solar/fire/god of sacrifice).

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/moloch.html

Marduk
http://www.gatewaystobabylon.com/gods/lords/marduk1.html

On Giza and Orion, I would recommend Picknett & Prince's The Stargate Conspiracy. See post #75 here, and that whole Stichin conversation could fit there pretty well:

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10740261

Yup, Moloch was fashioned in the form of a bull. That blurb you posted states (in somewhat awkward english) at the end:

"The people gathered before the Moloch were dancing on the sounds of flutes and tambourines to drown out the screams of the victims."

This is exactly what the religious rites of the Kabeiri/Corybantes were like, as is also described in the analogy of the Curetes concealing Zeus' cries by banging their shields together. You even have Zeus' mother Rhea, shown below with the Curetes, being the Greek counterpart of Cybele, the Great Mother.



That blurb also states: "firstborn children were sacrificed to him" ... I beg to differ, Moloch wasn't a "him" IMO ... Taurus, the bull, the horns, the moon, Isis, all were associated with one another and were always female (if the ladies will excuse me for saying so).

Also, the mountains which rise above the areas of Cilicia and Subartu I've been talking about are in fact the Taurus Mountains.



......................

zetetic0void, thanks for catching this:



Yes, that was a typo. (Woops!) I just fixed it

I also wanted to mention, and this connects this Orion business with the subject of my post upstairs about Mt. Zephon/Hazi, the names Osiris and Sirius both smack of Syria (!). I didn't quite understand the business of Sirius being between the horns of the bull, but Sirius is in fact in the same corner of the sky as Taurus and Orion (near the later), and if these ideas were in fact developed in Dyastic Egypt then it would have been during the "age" of Taurus as I understand it (as we are in the later stages of the age of Pieces at the moment). Zetetic0void, as you correctly point out, the Egyptian myths are "confusing as h@ll", and the stories changed subtly from place to place and from dynasty to dynasty. On the other hand, and I think you would agree also, there are certain concepts and a general symbology which are ubiquitous and pop up again and again in different guises, the crescent moon with upraised "horns" painted so often at the feet of the Virgin Mary being a perfect example.

But back to Syria, I've made two discoveries, if you could call them that, that sort of blew my mind - one of which relates directly to this Giza/belt of Orion business. I went on above about the apparent connections between the Mt. Hazi/Zephon area and Cilicia, and the proximity of the Subartu to this area and the Great Mother "glue" that tied these peoples and the Halybes (who look like they also spent time in the area there between Subartu and Mt. Zephon at some point) together and to the areas Cybele-cult roots are pinned, Colchis(Georgia), Phrygia and Mt. Ida. Hopefully I'll be able to make more sense out of all this and strengthen these threads at some point.

I brought this up because when you then trace the Spartans (neo-Subartu) later into Italy (which I haven't posted anything about yet), you wind up in the region of Abruzzo, midway up the boot of Italy on the eastern side. The western half of the boot next to Abruzzo is a region called Lazio. The people who inhabited this area early on were called the Sabines (which also fits into the class of "Saba" names). I about fell off my chair when I saw these names grouped together, for Abruzzo is very likely where the roots of the all-important Brusse/Bruce rulers of Scotland are to be found, and Lazio connects directly with the Laz of Colchis/Georgia. Colchis was in fact "known to the Byzantine authors as Lazica ... after the Laz tribe, which at some time dominated the local ruling élite." (!!!). (David Braund, Georgia in Antiquity: A History of Colchis and Transcaucasian Iberia, Oxford University Press, 1994 p 27)

Indeed 'John' of 'Ladon-Gog' has spent some time on this (which I am currently trying to make sense of), and it appears that terms like Laz and Lydia (Lydia was in western anatolia in the heart of Cybele-cult land near Mt. Ida) and other significant "L" terms have a lot more in common than phonetic similarity. Two really significant examples that pop into my head would be the Ladon dragon, and the Greek goddess Leto, the mother of Apollo and Artemis who are closely associated with the "wolf"/"boar" peoples of the Black Sea region so important to this topic.

Anyway, check this out - this is the coat of arms of Aquila, which is a provence in Abruzzo:



What's that eagle standing on? Three peaks !!! Are those the peaks of Mt. Hermon, the pyramids of Giza or both!!????

Kudos to John, author of Ladon-Gog for leading me to all this. Now there's something else I noticed, the repercussions of which would be quite amazing IMO if there's anything to it, which has to do with the Huns Attila led into modern Hungary and the Arpad rulers (apparently descended from Attila) who ruled the area after the collapse of the Khazarian empire (from where Arpad led Magyar and Kabar tribes). (I've yet to read anyone suggesting this btw.)

First a little background:

Accounts of who the Huns were is confused, I think the conventional wisdom is that they were not a homogenous people, but a large federation of tribes from different places. They are described as being Turkic, or Ugrian, or of the Xiongnu who migrated into central Asia from Mongolia.

The Hungarian myth of the White Stag has the origins of the Hun and Magyar founders of Hungary being twin sons of Nimrod:


http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/BAU.htm


http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Huns.htm

I looked into the genealogy of Attila the Hun at the JDA website and found it traced back to the Hans of China.

Now ponder the similarity of these three terms:

1. Uyghur - a Turkic peoples, with populations living in various parts of central Asia, the largest concentration of ethnic Uyghurs being in China.

2. Finno-Ugric peoples - "The Finno-Ugric peoples is a historic linguistic group of peoples in Europe who speak Finno-Ugric languages, such as the Finnic (Finns and Estonians) and the Ugric peoples (Hungarians)." - Peter Hajdu, 1975, Finno-Ugrian Languages and Peoples

3. Ugarit: An ancient city on the coast of Syria near Mt. Hazi/Zephon.




If Uyghur, Ugric and Ugarit aren't somehow connected I'd be very surprised, and not just because of the similarity of the names.

When I saw that the twin founders of the Huns and the Magyars were sons of Nimrod in the Hungarian myth of the White Stag, I immediately recalled that the Subartu are said to have also descended from a son of Nimrod (Sevordik) ...


Read what this says:



It's starting to look to me like the Magyars were originally from or passed through this Subartu area in northern Mesopotamia, and I'll bet they carried the Ugarit term with them from Canaan all the way to China and back (leaving pockets of ethnic Uyghurs along the way) ... and if I may speculate a little more, Attila the Hun should maybe be called Attila the HAN !

(I'm only half joking)

http://fabpedigree.com/s084/f329059.htm
http://fabpedigree.com/s048/f206228.htm

If that's not enough to blow yer skirt up, Subartu roots for the Magyars would essentially make the Hungarian Magyars and the Greek Spartans cousins! (Providing the Subartu were in fact the proto-Spartans.) AND, if the roots of the Brusse clan really turn out to be in Sparta, then when the Bruce rulers of Scotland meet (and marry) the Drummond decendents of the royal Hungarian Arpads, then we really see the completion of a very large circle indeed - one that loops all the way to China and back.

.............................
EDIT: Odds 'n ends related to this post:

With regard to possible Chinese Hun roots, while the JDA pedigree site above has Attila and a long string of Hun kings before him tracing back to Chinese Han royalty, some sources claim that the Huns have roots in the nomadic Xiongnu of Mongolia, who actually fought a war with the Han Chinese.. That's particularly intriguing (or confusing) because Wu, a Han emperor who fought the Xiongnu is one of the Chinese listed as an anscestor of royal Huns.That doesn't preclude both Xiongnu and Han dynasty origins for the Huns of course.

As to the Halybes of iron-fashioning fame who's name may have inspired the name of Arthur's sword Ex-Chaliber and, if and when they might have been in north-west Syria near Mt. Zephor/Hazi, I ran across a map marked 3rd millenium B.C. which has a city Halab in exactly the same spot as the 19th century map I posted earlier which is marked as Chalybonitis.




And as for Bruces marrying Drummonds, king David II Bruce of Scotland married Margaret Drummond (certainly named for St. Margaret!) - though the marriage produced no children.

Ugarit is a rich archeological site, the origins of the city may go back 8000 years!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit


Cuneiform tablet from Ugarit

Well that makes perfect sense! Mercury was the Roman counterpart of Hermes, and the Phoenicians were a "Hermes" people while Mt. Hermon was in Phoenicia. They were penultimate sea-farers, traders, merchants, and, er, um, pirates.

[Disclaimer:

I wrote the posts in this thread (those under my name) as I embarked on a path of research, motivated purely by an intense curiosity, and I marked my discoveries along the way here in this thread. I was fascinated by the use of occult symbology in our media (and other clues), and the more I investigated the more I saw that the history, in fact "world-view" that we have all been told to accept is mostly balony. (I stand by that 100%.) However I concluded too fast that there was a linear connection between the self-annointed managers of our country (and, to a large and increasing degree, our planet) and an ancient "dragon" culture. And I have (somewhat mistakenly) described this culture as of a "conquering" nature in many of my posts. While I learned a great deal on my search for answers, and while the reader might find some of my posts interesting, I have discovered that my overriding view of the big picture was wrong.

The true dragons were a wise and just sub-race of Kings and Queens of antiquity, and they have been all but gone for a thousand years - exterminated by the Church and her clients, the long string of usurpers who traded loyalty to Rome in return for its (fraudulent) recognition of kinghood. The Templars were not dragons (I don't think), they were rather a military arm of the dragons, from whom they split and pursued their own interests. William the Conqueror may have had some dragon blood in him, but he was first a warrior and his loyalties lied with his own power-grab - he killed many true "dragons" (the elven Picts) during his brutal subjugation of the north of England - and, the descendents of his warrior co-usurpers from Normandy, "bully-boys" as they have been described, who comprised the moneyed-elite of America throughout much of its history, were no better despite their claims of blue-bloodedness. Far worse are the bankers, often the descendents of those Norman colonists, who have taken their place. None of these people who have caused so much anquish in pursuit of their own monetary gain throughout modern history are "true" dragons, though I suspect they cling to imagined thread-thin connections to those ancient families, while they have hijacked the symbology and 'religion' (for lack of a better word) of the ancient cults in pursuit of their own bloated vision of themselves as overlords of us "stupid sheep".

If you want to know about the true "dragon blood-line", don't bother with my drivel, read instead "The Dragon Legacy" or any other of the works of Nicholas de Vere.]


Painter just reminded me of something related to the Council on Foreign Relations ...

Recall the discussion of the link between horse (Caballo/Cavallo in Latin) and Kabbalah, the Kassite horse peoples of Elam, and the legend of the Thracian Horseman as well as the related "nomadic horseman and sky father god" diety of Phrygia/Thracia, "Sabazios". Sabazios can be read as Sheba/Saboe+Zeus/Dios, the former apparently linked to Cybele. Discussed here.

Here's the CFR logo -


That's a pretty stupid looking logo if you ask me ... I don't think they would have picked it if it didn't have deep significance. I wonder what those initials stand for???

Source (via google): http://www.bcrevolution.ca/secret_societies.htm

(edit: formatting)

I posted this in the other thread but will C&P it here, too:

Latin for "everywhere".

http://www.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookup....&ending=que

ubi que
ubi or ubi [where] (interrog. and relat); of time , [when, as soon as]; of other relations, [wherein, whereby, with whom].
ubicumque (ubicunque) relat. [wherever]; indef. [anywhere , everywhere].
Ubii -orum m. pl. [a Germanic people].
ubique [everywhere].
ubivis [wherever you will , anywhere].

Pronunciation: Proper classical Latin pronunciation is "OO-bik-way."

Willow and painter, you beat me to it
Thanks

I found the same 'Four Horses of the Apocalypse' interpretation on another site as well -
http://www.mainemediaresources.com/mpl_whitehorse.htm

However, would the founders of the CFR pick a symbol connected to the Anti-Christ for their club? Maybe, but I think the Thracian Horseman/Sabazios figure is a better candidate. (Maybe the four horsemen in Revelations are a commentary related to Sabazios?)

Wikipedia had this to say about Sabazios ...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

Here's the image Wikipedia displays for that "hand".



Does the outstretched hand of the CFR horseman not look like it's in the same position as the one related to Sabazios worship???

Looks more like this to me:

Yikes.

Actually, so far I think it's a toss-up. I've looked at all the images of the CFR logo I could find and unfortunately none are very large or clear - some look like maybe the Nazi salute and some look like only two fingers extended. Hard to tell. The baphomet image you see alot on the web also has one hand with extended thumb and two fingers, the left hand in that case. The bronze "Sabazios hand" above and CFR horseman (as well as Nazi salute) are all right hand.

Back to the stars in the sky being relative
to the posisitions on Earth of certain human monuments...

There is a way of looking at the universe above us as a giant globe,
from our perspective. The north star being the north pole, with all the
other stars south, to the other pole.
I wonder if the Earth and the "globe" of our annual,
sidereal, view of the visible universe,
could be overlayed.

Wonder what this might show.

When?

"I wonder if the Earth and the "globe" of our annual,
sidereal, view of the visible universe,
could be overlayed."
------------

Well the imaginary coordinate system projected onto the sky correlates to the latitude and longitude on Earth.


Longitude on Earth = Right Ascension in the sky

Latitude on Earth = Declination in the sky


(right ascension is divided into hours, minutes of arc , seconds of arc and numbers get larger from west to east ... 24 hours in total. Declination is measured with 0 as midway between the celestial poles and the north celestial pole as 90 and the south celestial pole as -90. North celestial pole luckily has a star nearby it to conveniently mark it by coincidence. South celestial pole does not)


To a person located right on the equator of the Earth, the declination of 0 degrees is overhead and goes down east and west to the horizon exactly to the east and west. 90 and -90 degrees are due north and south on the horizon (ie, perfect theoretical flat horizon like at sea ... landscapes would block that). At my latitude of say 45 degrees north, the north celestial pole is 45 degrees about the north horizon (Polaris being close to that celestial pole but not quite, so it still appears to orbit the pole every day just like everything else in the sky due to the Earth rotating)


0 degrees longitude on Earth (prime meridian) passes through the Royal Observatory at Greenwich, London. This was a purely arbitrary decision made by those with the power to do so at the time ;-). Declination and latitude, though, are based on the actual poles of the Earth

--------

It's just a way of labelling something in the sky as having a position (x,y). However, due to precession of the equinoxes (caused by the 26000 or so year "wobble" or the Earth's orbit like a spinning gyroscopes axis wobbles), the positions of objects all change over time (even 50 years will have slight changes in coordinates).

-----------------
I don't think that wa rally your question though.


I can't see there being any actual correlation of land masses and formations to imaginary and coincidental arrangements of stars. Also due to the precession of the equinoxes (really, the slow 26000 or so year long cyclic "wobble" of the Earth's axis, any suppsoed correlation would not aling anymore anyway.)


Everyone should remember that so-called constellations in our sky are just made-up patterns by humans (and many cultures made up their own based on their own particular culture and environment. So a culture which discovered agriculture thousands of years ago might see different shapes in the stars than a nomadic hunter-gatherer culture. The actual stars making them up are at varying distances (anywhere from less than 10 to hundreds of light years) and mostly have no direct connection to each other apart from being in this same galaxy (some exceptions being such things as the 'big dipper' stars where five of those stars are actually part of a group and some main naked-eye clusters like the Pleiades(in Taurus) and Hyades (head of Taurus... although the bright star Aldebaran is not part of them... closer in 3d space than the cluster is to us).

--------------

However, I am reading how even in modern times (ie, formation of the US era), there is evidence that such things as Washington DC street alignments and buildings could have been purposefully designed to represent alingnments and stars in the sky.

Similarly, the case of the pyramids representing Orion's belt seems likely (possibly the Sphinx as representing Leo too).

large representations on hills in ENgland may represent some constellations too (I thought I read Heracles or Hercules was one).


There are cases of Greek and Roman temples built to align with certain stars that centuries later were rebuilt to align again because the precession of the equinoxes caused them to become misaligned.

I wonder where the nazi salute came from. Did it have some ancient cultural source? Is there some correlation to some mythological symbol.

Like most groups with a lot of precise symbols, there are most likely reasons for them...so not "just made up on the spot" ;-)

wikipedia on the normal salute

"Origin

The exact origin of this salute has been lost in time. One theory is that it came from Roman soldiers' shading their eyes from the intense light that was pretended to shine from the eyes of their superiors.

Another theory is that it came from when men-at-arms wore armor—a friendly approach would include holding the reins of the horse with the left hand while raising the visor of the helmet with the right, so that one would know they meant not to battle them. A third theory is that the salute, and the handshake, came from a way of showing that the right hand (the fighting hand) was not concealing a weapon. A combination of showing an empty right hand, palm outwards, which was then raised formally to a helmet to raise a visor would demonstrate non-aggressive intentions, and therefore respect."

"The most widely accepted theory is that it evolved from the practice of men raising their hats in the presence of officers"

"The naval salute, with the palm downwards originated because the palms of naval ratings, particularly deckhands, were often dirty through working with lines. Because it would be insulting to present a dirty palm to an officer, the palm was turned downwards."

----------

The nazi saulte doesn't appear to be similar but it too could have vaguelly changed over time from some other thing ....or they could have based it on some ancient cultural symbol.

Someone needs to investigate ;-)