QUOTE (CocaineImportAgency @ Apr 24 2009, 09:27 PM)
..very sorry to hear that!... he is in a better place!... God Bless him!
...do we know what happened Sanders!?
...in regards to the thread... i find this stuff too confusing for my little brain, maybe thats why i still think a missile hit the Pent`!?,...will have to read through it all again i think!
...you say you find Tsarion`s conclusions amusing!..does that mean he is wrong and your right!?..dont take me out of context here... i am not being condescending... i just think this subject is deep and entangled i find it hard to believe anyone can get the whole thing 100% right!
...regards and keep up the research!
Grizz/OceansFlow died of a heart attack a few days ago. Very sad, he will be greatly missed by many people.
Regarding Tsarion, did I really say I found his conclusions amusing!?? How RUDE of me!!!! Let me know in what post so I can change it - I must have been drunk.
Here's my problems with Tsarion - he is very smart and very convincing, but doesn't always back his conclusions up with anything other than his own confidence in them. He thinks civilization started in Ireland - it may have, but I'm not convinced. I think rather that Sumer, Ireland, the Indus Valley, Egypt, the area north of the Black Sea, and pockets around the Levant and Anatolia ALL developed together and influenced one another from early on, I think scholars give these peoples far too little credit for their ability to travel by ship and trade with each other, I think it's almost meaningless to say who was first. (If I remember correctly, there are artifacts from Ugarit, near the border between modern Turkey and Syria on the coast that are 7000 years old!)
Tsarion also thinks Akhenaton was Moses. Maybe he was, but there are some solid arguments that refute the idea - I posted them in this thread somewhere.
Regarding Akhenaton, first some quick background. "Aton" comes from the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaton (or vice versa), and was a solar-cult. Akhenaton got rid of or minimized the importance of all but a single solar-disc diety (Aten/Aton), and it caused a lot of grief. He was generally hated and later after Akhenaton was gone from the scene the other dieties were restored. The idea of a single male (solar/storm) god appeared again with the congealing of the Jewish and Christian religions, and Tsarion suggests that it was this Solar-cult left over from Akhenaton which was ultimately responsible and lies at the root of monotheism. I tend to agree with him.
From wikipedia: "Aten (or Aton) was the disk of the sun in ancient Egyptian mythology, and originally an aspect of Ra. He became the deity of the monotheistic — in fact, monistic — religion Atenism of Amenhotep IV, who took the name Akhenaten. The worship of Aten seemed to stop shortly after Akhenaten's death. In his poem "Hymn to Aten," Akhenaten praises Aten as the creator, and giver of life.
Tsarion's general view, as I read him, is that the Aton solar-cult perverted the ancient pagan belief system (as well as the true teachings of Jesus - who was a messianic "dragon" king - something on which I also tend to agree with him) resulting ultimately in the monotheistic Jewish and Christian religions. Basically you have the Solar-cult behind organized religion on the one side, and the druids and the pagan-dragon-cults they connect with, including I assume the non
-Aton-cult dynastic Egyptians, in opposition. Someone correct me if I'm reading him wrong (I don't think I am). So far Tsarion and I are on the same page, but he tends to paint the solar-cultists in a less than favorable light without applying the same brush to the ideological anscestors of our occultist ruling elite, the 'Great Mother' worshipping side of the spectrum. For example, he describes the Lion of Judah as the 'Aton-cult Lion', but Cybele (Great Mother cult of Anatolia) is found in artifacts accompanied by two lions. Samson's (associated with the Lion) parentage was tribe of Dan (father) and tribe of Judah (mother), and was "to be a 'Nazirite' from birth" (wikipedia quote). The tribe of Dan was decidedly pagan, Samson clearly is a parallel of Hercules, which is a figure of the Greek pagan pantheon, and even Tsarion agrees that 'Nazir' like so many other similar terms meant dragon. There are lions and dragons together adorning the Assyrian Ishtar Gate, (Ishtar being another form of the 'Great Mother'). I'm not sure what all that means, but I would say it goes against the argument that the Lion is a symbol of Aton/Aten.
Returning to my original train of thought, this dividing the world ideologically into solar-cult monotheists and dualistic dragon-cult pagans/Kabbalists might be a little simplistic, but I think in general terms it is both a valid and useful distinction. But I have also come to believe that painting one or the other as inherently good or bad is a little hazardous (despite the fact that I myself have done so in this thread), and that the salient point is rather that the two have battled for power behind the scenes for millenia. Just one small example, the Knights of Columbus is a Catholic masonic order - formed because Masons did not welcome Catholics. Furthermore, as a consequence of this ongoing struggle one camp would often don the trappings of or try to infiltrate and corrupt the other ... the Catholics ursurped the Merovingian line beginning with the Carolingians, and later (going back the other direction) the dualists got their own popes appointed, leading to the Templars and the Crusades. Later beginning in the 13th century I see the Catholics (solar-cult-monotheists?) getting control again and ridding Europe of the Cathars, but also beginning around this time begins the reigns of the Germanic Holy Roman Emperors, who I put in the "dragon" camp ...Sigismund (Emperor 1433–1437) of the House of Luxembourg (and King of Hungary) actually had his own Order of the Dragon (where Dracula got his name through his father). John, author of 'Ladon-Gog', has no compunction with associating these Germanic houses (Hohenstaufen, Wittelsbach, Luxembourg and Hapsburg) with the dragon-cult, in fact he shows that the Flinstones cartoon is a description of these houses and their relationships, right down to the colors of their outfits, in code! (I think Fred Flinstone represents Frederick I Barbarossa and/or Frederick II, two of the first of these Germanic Emperors from the house of Hohenstaufen, Barney is the house of Brunswick - hence his brown theme, Betty's blue matches the blue crest of the house of Wettin, and I think Wilma represents Flemish influences - anyway John has it all worked out). Furthermore, I have shown here in this thread how some of these important Germanic families descended from Vikings (through Varangian Rus), Huns (through Hungarian Magyar and Khazar families), and Byzantine royal lines, which I do not class with the ("solar-cult"?) Catholics of Rome BTW.
Confused? I don't blame you.
When you follow the threads backward through time from Freemasons and bankers and general modern-day-pirates who attempt to run the world, you arrive at a nexus of these Germanic houses, later tied up with the Rosecrucian and Illuminati movements and Jewish banking elite, the Templar banking knights, and royal lines in Britain that trace back to Normans with Viking (and to some extent Cathar) roots. (Conspicuous examples being crusading families from Lusignan, Toulouse, Anjou, etc. and families like Vere, Drummond, Sinclair, Bruce, Warren and many others.) Not only did many of these families intermarry through the centuries, with a penchant for linking and re-linking eastern and western branches, evidence of these relationships and the evolution of the bloodlines can be seen in the many family crests. When I say "eastern" and "western", I classify families rooted in migrations into Europe from Viking and Saxon lands to the north-east or from Cathar-rich south-western Gaul (France), as well as people like the Picts of Scotland, as "western"; whereas I classify blood-lines that accompanied incursions into Germania from Hungary, Khazaria and Byzantium as "eastern".
While many of these ruling families were outwardly Christian, I don't see any threads of the modern "conquering elite" tracing back to Rome, as it were. I DO see all of the threads tracing back through the Greek theatre (mostly on the Trojan side) and ultimately back to the Mesopotamia/Levant/Anatolia/Black Sea regions, and what I see common to all the threads is paganistic and Kabbalah roots. This I believe is why the ruling elite find it fun to watch mock sacrifices at Bohemian Grove, why the Freemasons are so powerful (either the Templar knights hid within Freemasonry or the Freemasons were an outspring of the Templars), and why Jewish and Gentile bankers and politicians, as well as Masons, get along so famously.
Admittedly I'm painting with a broad brush here, all I can say is this is the impression which has formed in my own mind from reading lots of things from many diverse sources (including Tsarion), and investigating on my own.
Tsarion certainly has done great research work. In my opinion though he is focused on the solar-cult of Aton (some say Aten) to the exclusion of how this "dragon-cult" I am speaking of evolved OUTSIDE of the Egyptian-Irish link (which he has explored).
Does that make any sense?
Also, I made a very interesting discovery recently. This is a rough read but very illuminating -http://www.masseiana.org/bbbk18.htm
He/she goes into great detail about the solar-cult of Aton/Aten and what can be derived from Egyptian primary sources about an "Exodus" (or several of them), which I haven't read through enough to comment on.
Observe however the Egyptian connections between the 'Great Mother', the hippopotamus, Cabiri, and Egyptian terms like khep or kheb:
Proclus in Timaeus, says: 'The Shepherds are analogous to the Powers that are arranged over the heads of animals, which in arcane narrations are said to be souls that are frustrated of the human intellect, but have a propensity towards animals.' The menat were special worshippers of the great mother Menât, the wet-nurse, who might be represented by the hippopotamus, the sow, the goat, the ass, or the later heifer...
...The uncleanness had its beginning in the earliest time and most primitive condition of the pre-man. No more effective evidence for the doctrine of development is anywhere to be found than in these dark rites of religion. ...What a portrait, for example, of the early mind and taste is presented by the hippopotamus being adopted as the primitive type of the genetrix, the Great Mother, the khep, khepsh, or uterus of creation....
...The 'Children of Israel' are the sons of the El of the Isar or Gashar, the ten tribes who became the twelve in the latest arrangement founded on the twelve signs and seventy-two divisions of the [p.380] solar zodiac. The earliest rendering of the name of the Hebrews is as the (ירבע) gabari, identical with that of the Cabiri, who are a family (kab) of companions, watchers, or brethren; the first of these being the seven of the Great Bear, the children of the typhonian genetrix, the root of whose name, in Egyptian, is Kef, Kep, or Kheb, as in kafa, the fist; kef, force, might, the hinder-part; kep, Typhon, concealed place, cave, sanctuary, womb; kapu, the mystery of life; kheb, the hippopotamus. ...
...The unicorn is the type both of Sut, the son, and Typhon, the genetrix. One symbol of this dual divinity is a kind of antelope with a single horn—the unicorn of heraldry. This is the type of Sut, the son, and by it we identify Joseph, whose 'horns are as the horns of unicorns.' The unicorn of Deut. 33:17 preceded the bullock of Au, and both are here given as symbols of the Iusif or Joseph. Amongst the most ancient things in Hebrew is the word םבי which stands for םבכ the yod representing a k-sound. Kabm (םבי or) has the meaning of being big-bellied and pregnant, and in this old unused word survives the name of the typhonian genetrix, the hippopotamus goddess Khebma, the procreant Great Mother. The word is applied to the brother-in-law, i.e., the brother of the husband, who was compelled by law to marry the widow of his deceased brother, in fulfilment of what is termed the Levirate. This was a reliquary [p.382] bequest from the sociological stage described by Caesar in Britain, where ten or a dozen men, fathers, sons, and brothers, had their wives in common, and kabbed together like the Cabiri above, the seven of one family, who were the sons of Khebma, and the primeval brothers-in-law, when the fatherhood was individually uncertain, but was acknowledged by the Cabiri, grouped together under one totem, who were desirous of perpetuating the family (kâbt, Eg. a family) name...
This Egyptian term 'Kheb' and its variants Khep/kapu listed above appear to describe the 'Great Mother', original creation, and the pregnant belly anthropomorphized in the form of the hippopotamus. I have been convinced by John (Ladon-Gog) of the Kabbalah roots of the cult of Cybele/Kybele, the ancient 'Great Mother' religion of Anatolia, and you can even see 'Kabbalah' in 'Kybele' if you squint your eyes a little bit. I went into the business of the Latin word Caballo (horse) deriving possibly from knight servitude and/or the importance of the horse in Cybele worshipping Anatolian cultures, and that our word "Cabal" likely also derives from Kabbalah somehow, as the first secretive 'mystery religions' were the Sabazios/Kybele worshipping cults of Anatolia, Thracia and the Caucasus).
I shoved Sabazios and Kybele together there with a slash between since Saba and Kybele are apparently intimately connected. I quoted this from John in an earlier post, but it's worth repeating, it even connects all of this stuff with the Viking pagan pantheon which I have mostly ignored:http://www.tribwatch.com/sheba.htm
(from about a third the way down the link)
I also noticed the spelling of "Aeskhines," starting with "Aes" as it does, and wondered if the Aesir pantheon of Scandinavia wasn't from this very Hebrew-Aryan mix. I was about to be proven correct within minutes, for immediately afterward, in the same Strabo sentence, there was this that caught my eye : "...when [Aeskhines' mother] conducted initiations, that [Aeskhines] joined her in leading the Dionysiac march, and that many a time he cried out 'evoe saboe,' and 'hyes attes, attes hyes'; for these words are in the ritual of Sabazios [Zagreos] and the Mother..."
- Strabo, Geography 10.3.18" (Zagreos brackets not mine).http://www.theoi.com/Georgikos/Zagreus.html
I stared at that cry. What did it mean. I went searching online to find the meaning because it wasn't given in the article. I couldn't find the translation. But as I stared at the phrase, knowing that "attes" was Attis, it hit me like a ton of bullion that "saboe" was Kybele!
And when I saw that Zagreus was the same as Sabazios, it was like when a man searches for pecans under a pecan tree, months after harvest when nuts are scarce, and when he sees one and stoops to pick it up, he looks forward and sees two more, and as he picks them up he looks slightly to the side and sees four more. Then he looks up and sees that he is directly under a pay-load branch that had held its fruit for an extra-ordinary span of time.
For my new project, terms like "Saboe" and "Sabazios" were golden, for they are easily discernible as Sheba terms. Kybele was Sheba, or so I thought at first. In reading on, I realized that the Kybele cult was instead taken over by Sheba Hebrews. However, this does not exclude the possibility that the Kybele cult had itself been founded by an earlier wave of Shebeans into Phrygia, though Dedanites (from northern Syria/Asshur) may have been superior at first.
I went immediately to an article on Sabazios, and learned that the term is to be likely understood as Saba-Zeus or Saba-Dios, and that the Romans viewed it as the cult of "Jupiter Sabazius." The website went on to point out that it was Jews in particular who were attached to Jupiter Sabazius. For example, Jews of Rome were expelled for propagating that cult. The website author shares that moderns do not know the reason that Romans singled out the Jews as pertaining to the cult. I also read the following at the same site: "Plutarch (''Symposium''. iv. 6) maintained that the Jews worshipped Dionysus, and that the day of Sabbath was a festival of Sabazius." http://bvio.ngic.re.kr/Bvio/index.php/Sabazios
That's when it started to hit me: ancients knew that Kybele was a Hebrew entity. So why don't we have the same view today? Because, the Galli-Kabeiri cult contributed much to the blood of Gauls, Romans, Celts, Germanics, Russians, and others who didn't wish to know their Hebrew roots but instead emphasized the Aryan side of their Thracian/Phrygian blood.
My note - do not automatically equate 'Hebrew' with Judaism. Technically Hebrews are descendents of Eber, way up the genealogical chain from Abraham.
Secondly, many won't see how Saba/Sheba terms could be corruptions of Kaba or the Egyptian Khep/Kheb/Kepu (or vice versa), but notice that in English our 'C' consonant can carry either a hard 'K' sound or an 'S' sound. SO, to clarify, Saba, just like Kaba (root of Kabbalah) signifies Great Mother worship, whereas Saba and the Greek paternal god Zeus (Dios) are jammed together to get Sabazios, and the resulting diety takes the male form. This by the way, I am almost certain, is the horseman of the logo of the Council on Foreign Relations, another 'mystery religion'-like secretive "cult" open only to invitees, if I may describe it in those terms.
Lastly, neither I nor John in the above quote are actually equating 'Saba' with 'Kaba' or Sheba with Kybele directly, but simply noting the intimate connection. John's chapter is in fact titled 'Sheba Conquers Kybele', and he goes into some detail about the relationship between the two.
Before I reveal my last revelation, remember that the 'dragon-cult' slithered all the way from Sumer through the Indus Valley to China, hence the Chinese 'dragon-throne' and Chinese pyramids ... and that the concept of the pregnant belly of the 'Great Mother' in Egypt was anthropomorphized in the form of the hippopotamus ...
It just occurred to me that Hippopotamus in Japanese is 'Kaba'.