Here's something I just found dealing with that CFR logo and hand gesture ... and this is mirrored in a painting of Napolean in Egypt

-----------
"In this famous painting set in Egypt, the conqueror Napoleon, a Freemason and Illuminist, gives the Sign of Admiration of the sixth degree of the Masonic Lodge."
-----------

http://www.texemarrs.com/Merchant2/merchan...e=pop_1207_1307


This painting might have a similar hand sign

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Napoleon4.jpg


Here's a whole page of info talking about this "illuminati" hand gesture


http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopol...ex_magica09.htm


That site might have some valid points but perhaps goes a bit too far. I haven't looked it all over but I'm thinking that not every single case shwone might be using some hand sign on purpose. The painting of Napoleon on that page in front of the pyramids is interesting


Also on this search another image of Napoleaon near the pyramids giving that sign

http://pro.corbis.com/search/Enlargement.a...146CE91C82E3%7D

26000 years ago, would the stars be in nearly the same position,
relative to each other, as they are today?

That is, if the Earth was going through the same part of the great year,
that we are going through now...then?

Would the stars be in the same positions that we see them now,
~26000 years ago?

Would we see the same constellations?

...er, then, as now?

26000 years ago, would the stars be in nearly the same position,
relative to each other, as they are today?

That is, if the Earth was going through the same part of the great year,
that we are going through now...then?

Would we see the same constellations?
---------

Well, if we went back 25771.5 years (which apparently is the calculated length of time for one complet "wobble" cycle of the Earth's rotational axis (called 'precession of the equinoxes') then theoretically, the total orientation to the sky would be the same as right now.

However, because the actual stars (including the Sun and whole solar system along with it) have motions through space, some stars would have actually moved in position.

On this page below is a cool animation showing some changes around the area of the Big Dipper (part of 'Ursa Major') between 150000 years ago and 150000 from now. The changes in stralocations is drastic and shows ultimately that our invented constellations will become obselete and impossible to regard as actual regions or shapes by that time.


http://www.southernstars.com/skychart/updates/sc351.html


So 26000 years ago or 26000 years from now, some stars would have noticably shifted from current locations. I forget some real velocities at the moment but they are measured in kilometres per second but if a star 1 million kilometres in diamter, even speeds in the km/sec aren't too much haha

---------

We're all going around the centre of the Milky Way galaxy at different speeds and sometimes in different directions locally so all of these constellations are all temporary formations invented by humans.

---------
---------

Makes me think how if these elite illuminati actually observe ceremonies and practices involving secret "wisedom" teachings which hold astronomnical alignments and such as being really significant , it is just as temporary in the grand scheme of things as their focus on wealth, money, power, status, control .... it is all temporary. If they really think they can hold onto these temporary formations of Reality, they are misguided and their goal is just as impossible in the long run as trying to keep these imaginary constellations in our sky from disappearing as the stars go through actual 3-dimensional space in their various speeds and directions.

These are Phoenician:




The open hand shows up on the flags of Northern Ireland & Ulster and on the flag of Abkhazia



John does a whole chapter on it (he deals with an Irish-Abkhazi connection and doesn't mention Phoenicia) -
http://www.tribwatch.com/abkhazia.htm

If I were to speculate, I'd think this: "A third theory is that the salute, and the handshake, came from a way of showing that the right hand (the fighting hand) was not concealing a weapon." is very logical and could easily account for the Phoenician's use of the open hand to initiate commerce.

The CFR horseman appears to me to be extending only one or two finders as opposed to the whole hand, at least in these poor images (the best I could find), and the thumb is clearly extended -



It's most similar I think to that Magazine cover of Napolean zetetic0void posted, which has him pointing with the right hand (as opposed to the painting Tex Mars compares it with where he's holding his left hand outstretched) -

http://pro.corbis.com/search/Enlargement.a...146CE91C82E3%7D

...........................

More on Sabazios and his "votive hand":


Votive Arm and Hand of Zeus Sabazios
Roman, 1st-2nd Century
Cleveland Museum of Art


Votive hand of Sabazios
Musée Romain d'Avenches

http://www.stoa.org/hopper/text.jsp?doc=St...hlight=of#ccis3

From Answers.com:



The thumb and extended two fingers shows up here too -


Eliphas Lévi's 19th century drawing of "baphomet"

Hmm, very interesting, 25771.5 years (~26 thousand years) ago the stars were slightly different, but the constellations can still be imagined, compared to 150 thousand years, of time span.
So, it is possible that the same constellations could have been used then,
to describe the same myths of today.
The constellations seem to be around the peripheral history of yesterday, in art,
and today, in horoscopes.
It makes me wonder how many times have we watched and noted the great wobble.
Seems to me, it would have to be, at least,twice, perhaps?

That would mean that people have been "taking notes" for over 52 thousand years!
...yet, we only know of 8 thousand years or so, of this time span.

imo, lunk

"(~26 thousand years) ago the stars were slightly different, but the constellations can still be imagined, compared to 150 thousand years, of time span. So, it is possible that the same constellations could have been used then, to describe the same myths of today.
----------------

Well certain cumtural groups all over the world saw certain stars in the sky at certain times of years that just hapened to match up with events in their environment, so the start of all this would have been noticing that apparent correlation. People would have then thought the stars would have actually caused these events (start of astrological thinking?)

So if you are a hunter-gatherer group and every year at a certain time, these antelopes come to some river area and at that time at night, certain star just happened to start rising after sunrise, it might stick with those people as the star that caused the antelope to gather (or at least as a sign that occured at the same time).

I'm looking into now how in the distant past before cities were starting but in early agricultre, the star Spica might have been setting just after sunset areound spring time. If this culture is just starting agriculture (purposefully planting crops) and they were a Mother Goddess culture, they might have considered that star as signifying the Mother Goddess or reguvinating power of the Mother Goddess. So this star we call Spica hs been seen since Greek times as the "bundle of wheat" in the constllation Virgo and I perhaps originated as a much earlier primal 'Mother Earth Goddess' of older people.

Another group on some other continant who still hunted may have seent that star as some sort of animal. It all depends on the culture and there environment and their type of society at the time.


I'm not sure what people saw in the stars 25000 years ago as that seems to be pre-agriculture by a long time. There might have been a few bright stars (or perhaps the Pleaides star cluster which is very obvious) seen as animals or something. Maybe the three belt stars of orion were seen by some group as three bears or something




-----------------
It makes me wonder how many times have we watched and noted the great wobble.
Seems to me, it would have to be, at least,twice, perhaps?
-----------------

I'm not sure early peoples would have noticed. I imagine only the invention of writing could have allowed such long term observations to become noticed (records of over centuries being needed for someone later to see a change). I'm not sure if oral memories passed on would record such things. I don't knwo though.

Some Egyptologists even now don't think the Egyptians knew about precession of the Equinoxes. I've seen evidence that they did as well as the Mayans and others. Those people back then were extremely keen on measuring positions in the sky.


-----------------
That would mean that people have been "taking notes" for over 52 thousand years!
...yet, we only know of 8 thousand years or so, of this time span
-----------------

Of course there are some people who have ideas of lost ancient cultures that go back far longer than what we see.... it's interesting but I don't know. If there was information about this , some scientists might resist it if the whole social structure of history is set in the collective mind (the assumption that science always follows leads of knowledge may be wrong...there is always the social pressure of not believing the wrong idea for the sake of one's reputation and carreer ;-) )


Who knows, maybe some of this ancient knowledge we think the "Illuminati" has is from some time that has been hidden from mainstream knowledge.

We know that people who held power over others in the past,
prefer to pass it on to their next of kin, or relative, rather than have it
taken away, from their own.

We know that human beings have been around,
for much longer than 10,000 years,
physically, (same size, general shape, and brain)
even with evolution, a "species" can
exist for millions of years with little change.
(look at the shark)

So, it seems entirely possible that the same "families"
have been, passing down accumulated knowledge
of how they kept their a hold on their power in the past.
perhaps for hundreds of years...or more.

Civilizations rise and fall, and the myths of the past,
become the art of the present.

There are some who say, that the majority of people.
in the world, are being farmed like cattle, by a
small dominant minority, of elitist minded people.
Countries are just farms,
Laws, rules and beliefs, are
the fences, boarders and cattle prods.

It makes sense that, this dominant minority,
would be taking and keeping "notes" on how things were done in the past.
Ancient hidden archives, with instructions,
on how to plan your civilizations future.
(with the intent of never giving up this power,
which means never revealing "their" archives, to the majority)

...just a thought

imo, lunk

Highly probable, IMHO.

DEFINITELY! (And by the way, I appreciate that you put "illuminati" in quotes. That's a good place for the term IMO.)

The dark ages comes to mind for one, when everyone (in Europe) forget EVERYTHING and had to start over from scratch around the 15-16th centuries, as apposed to the Islamic world which was way ahead of Europe through that time, they got their mass-lobotomy with the Ottomon Empire. Funny that we forget that people knew a whole lot before those dark centuries. I was watching a show on Viking ship construction - they decided that the hulls of those ships were perfectly and ingeniously designed. Yet many scholars can't get their minds around the possibility that Phoenicians visited the Americas.

There are lingering questions in my mind, and sometimes I stumble on to the answers - I just found one, so forgive me for going off topic. I keep running into crests that feature scallops - like the Dutch Royal-Shell logo. Usually in threes. Here's one, its the Coat of Arms of Reading University in England -



That ruffled cross is practically the Scottish Sinclair crest, and with a rose in the center to boot, so you know there's something going on. Reading U. was founded by Halford Mackinder, a British scholar, politician and Oxford man who was sort of like the Zbignew Brzezinski of England a hundred years ago. His family are descended from Picts and their crest is in a classic Blue-White theme, but I don't want to get off track. I want to know what those scallops mean.

Princess Diana had them on her crest, as did her family, the Spencers. (Diana btw was no "nobody", she was as royally blood-connected as any king or queen.)



More talk about Diana's crest and scallop-shells 4/5ths of the way down this page:
http://www.scottish-wedding-dreams.com/200808.html

There are tons of examples of these shells used in crests, I see them quite frequently and always wondered what they signified. The general explanation is that the shell denoted pilgrimage - that someone in the family's history had made a pilgrimage and brought back shells, to put it simply. However, John of 'Ladon-Gog' seems to think the symbol has something to do with secrecy, meanwhile the Templars were the protectors of pilgrims (as per their "cover story"), and so I wasn't satisfied. Finally I stumbled on to a more satisfying explanation ... VERY satisfying in fact. So satisfying that I can see why the truth is never mentioned.

I found the answer buried in an article written by Phillip Gardner titled 'the Mysterious Head of St. Teilo' about a monk. The monk's decapitation happens in Saint Claire Sur-Epte, which was where the treaty that ceded Normandy to Rollo and his Viking invaders took place in the year 911 A.D.

I'm gonna blow the suspense and start with the info that explains the significance of the scallop shells right off the bat:



WOW!!!! Skull, scale, scallop ... there's a phrase used here in Japan, 'Me kara uroko ga ochiru' which means the scales fall from one's eyes (and you see the truth). The connections between skull, scallop, scales of the dragon and the word 'chalice' is more than I could have imagined - I've seen those hollowed out half-skulls in books - I had no idea of their true significance. But there's more ...



"Kapala", "cuppella", does anyone see Kabbalah in there!???

I'll never look at a simple cup the same way.

The whole article is here
http://gfamily3.genealogynative.com/index....g-implications/

Think it's an ACCIDENT that when the modern world was being built the most powerful oil monopoly in the British-European realm, controlled by the house of Rothschild (and the mirror of Rockefeller's Standard Oil across the Atlantic), Dutch Royal-Shell, had THIS for a logo!??




Actually, the page linked above which talks about Diana's crest also mentions a financier of the Shell company who traced his ancestry back to the Graham family, who also include 3 scallop shells on their crest. So while it might be coincidental that one of the biggest oil companies in the world has a shell for a logo, it's not really an accident.

Yup. But we're catching on

[Disclaimer:

I wrote the posts in this thread (those under my name) as I embarked on a path of research, motivated purely by an intense curiosity, and I marked my discoveries along the way here in this thread. I was fascinated by the use of occult symbology in our media (and other clues), and the more I investigated the more I saw that the history, in fact "world-view" that we have all been told to accept is mostly balony. (I stand by that 100%.) However I concluded too fast that there was a linear connection between the self-annointed managers of our country (and, to a large and increasing degree, our planet) and an ancient "dragon" culture. And I have (somewhat mistakenly) described this culture as of a "conquering" nature in many of my posts. While I learned a great deal on my search for answers, and while the reader might find some of my posts interesting, I have discovered that my overriding view of the big picture was wrong.

The true dragons were a wise and just sub-race of Kings and Queens of antiquity, and they have been all but gone for a thousand years - exterminated by the Church and her clients, the long string of usurpers who traded loyalty to Rome in return for its (fraudulent) recognition of kinghood. The Templars were not dragons (I don't think), they were rather a military arm of the dragons, from whom they split and pursued their own interests. William the Conqueror may have had some dragon blood in him, but he was first a warrior and his loyalties lied with his own power-grab - he killed many true "dragons" (the elven Picts) during his brutal subjugation of the north of England - and, the descendents of his warrior co-usurpers from Normandy, "bully-boys" as they have been described, who comprised the moneyed-elite of America throughout much of its history, were no better despite their claims of blue-bloodedness. Far worse are the bankers, often the descendents of those Norman colonists, who have taken their place. None of these people who have caused so much anquish in pursuit of their own monetary gain throughout modern history are "true" dragons, though I suspect they cling to imagined thread-thin connections to those ancient families, while they have hijacked the symbology and 'religion' (for lack of a better word) of the ancient cults in pursuit of their own bloated vision of themselves as overlords of us "stupid sheep".

If you want to know about the true "dragon blood-line", don't bother with my drivel, read instead "The Dragon Legacy" or any other of the works of Nicholas de Vere.]




Hmmmm, sounds pretty Kabbalistic to me - don't they sit around and repeat text over and over to find deep meaning in the sounds of words?

LUNK, ARE YOU A KABBALIST??? DID YOU DO IT WITH MADONNA!???

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xb33_madonna-like-a-virgin



[Feel free to delete and/or move this post Sanders and/or lunk]

Curious enough, I happened to turn the radio on NPR the other day,
and I heard someone talking about her self discovery of coming through
rationalization to the idea that there was no god. which she described as being an
imaginary lunk in your head.
She described the "god' (in her head), that she "used to believe in"
as " this lunk" at least twice.

I turned off the radio.

lol, lunk

Here's us all wondering whether we're figments of our own imagination... and it turns out you're a figment of someone else's?!!

I exist.
I think the essence of Kabella is the notion that each of us are becoming a god.

Where as my little brain figures that all our individual "I"s are the same one, just
experiencing life differently, and coming to our own conceptions about it.
We naturally think that our self comes from our own experiences,
which makes us all different,
but, as you begin life, you still have an "I".

Each of us refer to our selves as, by the same description, "I".

imo, lunk

You know, I refer to Kabalah quite a bit in this thread but I only have a vague idea of what it's really about. I just read some things on 'mystery religion' and Gnostic sects, which differentiate the two saying that the group of 'mystery religions/cults' were reserved for initiates. According to Wikipedia, Cybele, Dionysus, Sabazios and Isis were all worshipped by various "Mysteries". These sects that served their own initiates implied that they KNEW the "meaning of it all" (but you had to be initiated and go through their program to find out - much like Freemasonry), whereas those faiths/cults that are considered 'Gnostic' were open to all and claimed only to be a path to such knowledge. A pretty good interpretation I thought ... however...

The 'Gnostic' sects such as the Cathars were driven underground by the Church, so the delineation is blurred. Furthermore I see clear connections between Catharism and Kabalah (it is said that Rabbi Makhir brought Kabalah mysticism to the Laquedoc and it spread from there into the surrounding areas under the guise of Catharism - someone please challenge me on this if they think otherwise, I don't feel 100% confident in that conclusion), and I also see definite connections between Kabalah mysticism (at least as it was practiced in Chaldea) and the Phrygian/Colchian/Greek Great-Mother cultism, both substantively and etymologically. It also sticks in my head that Carthage and Alexandria were main centers of Kabalah mysticism in the ancient world, and those were also the main Phoenician trading hubs - so there's that connection as well. That's not to say that all these various cults and sects didn't all evolve independently and diverge from one another, I assume they did of course. But it also appears to me that they are all connected.

But if you want to know what Kabalah mysticism is about, or the deeper revelations that these related cults espoused, the last thing you want to do is read my silly posts, I'm no expert! I'm learning as I go along, I'm simply interested in the connections between them all, and how it relates to the elite power-structure that we've all found ourselves subservient to at this crossroads in history.

I probably wouldn't be interested in this stuff at all were it not for what goes on at the Bohemian Grove every summer, or the power that secretive groups like the Freemasons or Skull and Bones enjoy and the symbology they embrace, or things like the unfinished pyramid on the back of the dollar bill. It tells me that all of this remains a part of the culture of the elite class. Put simply, I started reading about the "Illuminati" and certain explanations for all this and the viciousness required to sponsor something like 9/11, and it sounded like a lot of hooey to me and I wanted to know what was real and what was bogus. So here I am (still digging).

If nothing else, this is all quite interesting to me. Maybe for others too I hope. If it helps us understand better our would-be rulers/enemies of liberty, all the better.

Sanders!... i was listening to this...

Brotherhood of Death part 2

....thought you might be interested!?!

Thanx - I'll check it out

Obama has just reliquished US eocnomic sovereignty to an international entity at the G20 summit. Dick Morris has been talking about this over recent days.

From a post Grizz just PM'd me:




So, Mario Draghi, governor of the Bank of Italy and former partner at Goldman Sachs will be running things now. By "things", I mean the economic supervision of the world.

Call it a coincidence...


http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=draghi

I saw 'The Golden Compass', finally.

To any who don't know, this film is a toned down version of the first book of a trilogy known as 'His Dark Materials' by Phillip Pullman, written in the 90's. The books were attacked for being heretic and an affront to religion by Christian groups and the 'Catholic League' (not officially related to the Catholic Church) called for a boycott of the film.

The symbology present in the film (I haven't read any of the books) is quite stunning. The whole first installment revolves around a Golden Compass which can only be read, apparently, by the young girl, Lyra. The compass is read only in symbols - which is partially what this thread is all about - what can we elicit about the true nature of the western world's history from myths and symbols?

Immediately I saw that the name of the protagonist (Lyra) evokes the many "L" terms I've run across, notably Lydia. The protecters of Lyra are the 'Gyptians' (evokes Egyptians of course).

I have not talked about bears, but the big and little dipper are Ursa Major and Minor, near Draco and true north in the night sky, and bears do have relevance to the 'dragon-cult'. The 'armored bear' "swims in a sea of war" - without his armor he is nothing.

The deamons who are attached to humans in this parallel world are not a new invention of fiction, Socrates had a "daimon" who he consulted on matters of importance, according to Plato.
http://www.dailygrail.com/node/6451

Then I look up the Pullman family crest - it features three scallop shells, which I just talked about in another post and showed that the crest of the late British princess Diana, as well as many other elite crests including a major financier of the Shell company, feature scallop shells in threes, and that the roots of our words for Scallop and Skull are the same and relate to Kabbalah. Pullman is an ardent supporter of the British Humanist Association, which seems like a worthwhile and innocent crowd. Their MO is however very 'Masonic'. Then I find out that Pullman was an Oxford man - and we know that Oxford was Vere territory (most of the Earls of Oxford were Veres).

Vere-y interesting!!!

Obviously another example of 'Dragon-cult' symbology filtering into our media.

HOWEVER.

This is also a good lesson in how ambiguous all of this is. Another fervent supporter of the British Humanist Association is one of my favorite scientists, Richard Dawkins. Pullman himself is a vocal opponent of authority, totalitarianism and everything else we all rally against. Yet everything about his family lineage, education and the symbology used in his books says that he's a dragon blood-line descendent, writing in opposition to organized religion while using the symbology of the dragon-elite.

So what's what?

Conflict emerges only when one decides that this 'dragon-culture' is good or bad. It's not the culture per-se that is bad, it's simply that the ruling elite at present emerged largely from that culture, as opposed to the Catholic Church, which basically ran things while this alternate power structure was hiding their cards, biding their time and trying to get more control. IMO. I find it amusing that Michael Tsarion blames everything on the cult of Aton, which he believes corrupted the world and his 'pure-and-good' Irish druid culture ... from and by this Atonist cult from within the Catholic Church. I think I have established fairly well that the current ruling elite emerged NOT from the Catholic Church and Tsaraion's "cult of Aton", but from their enemies, the cult of the dragon - the followers of many gods, not the one sun-god.

The Catholic-Gnostic/Kabbalistic power struggle continues to this day ... I watch with great interest how Goldman-Sachs/JP Morgan/Chase vie with Bank of America. Hahaha. The ancient battle still rages ...

I noticed and mentioned that similarity on that other thread.

In your post at #159 you wrote and quoted:



I don't know if you realised but Skol is a brand of larger in Europe:

Skol advert'

also there is a Skoll Foundation (Hum! These foundations?):
Skoll Foundation

I don't drop into this thread often but nonetheless find it fascinating and it resonates with some of my thinking.

Wow!

Two more prominent cold-war era bad guys turn out to descend from families which received lands and title from William the Conqueror ...

John J. McCloy: McCloy's resume is stunning.


------------------

And Mr. Vietnam war-escalation himself, McGeorge Bundy.

Interestingly, houseofnames says the Bundy family is rooted in Abruzzo, also the seat of the Brusse family.

English and Italian branches.


http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=bundy

Coincidentally, McGeorge Bundy was once a president of the Ford Foundation, and John McCloy was a chairman. In the 50's Norman Dodd was part of a congressional investigation into tax-exempt foundations like the Ford and Rockefeller foundations and the Carnegie Endowment, and questioned then Ford Foundation president Rowan Gaither, who told him the goal of the foundations was to alter life in the US so as to comfortably merge it with the Soviet Union - an infamous exchange. The dad of our own Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner was a VP at the Ford Foundation - I look at the names Gaither and Geithner and can't help think they are branches of the same family - all the more crazy that members of both helped run the Ford Foundation. (Both of these names, Gaither and Geithner, I suspect, stem from Cati, Kazzi, Hazzi, Kassite. As does Khazaria.)

...............

And one other thing - excuse me for being a multi-tasker with 10 thoughts on my mind at the same time, which makes for very disjointed reading - sorry! ... I've been aware of this for some time but I don't think I ever mentioned it in this thread. Our word Cabal comes from Kabbalah. Coincidence?

Grizz PM'd me to point out that Mario Draghi is a member of the 'Group of 30', whose chairman is Paul Volker.

LaRouche is all over this:

http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/11/19...rveillance.html

He starts off by saying, "Mario Draghi is described as the mastermind of the G-20 plan, which boosts the Financial Stability Forum (FSF) as the world bankers' government. Draghi and IMF head Strauss-Kahn catapulting to action as early as November 13, sending a letter to the G-20 leaders, with the guidelines of the plan which envisions the FSF and the IMF as the two pillars of the world government."

That to me is giving way too much credit to Mario Draghi personally. He merely represents the cabal, an agenda ... a family. However his family name's dragon-connection is not coincidental.

Volker is simply a high-management figure with all the genealogical trappings. Lands and Title granted by William the Conqueror at the battle of Hastings.


http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=volker

Volker comes ultimately from Fulk, as in the Fulks of Anjou. Undoubtedly. Dragon, dragon, dragon.

Sticking this in here so I don't lose track of it - a rare bit of confirmation of a Dionysus/Osiris connection -



http://www.masseiana.org/bbbk18.htm

What a sad day.

Grizz/Oceans Flow was one of my best on-line friends. Most of the posts in this thread were copied over to his own forum in fact, and Grizz was very supportive of my efforts to look in to this topic right from the start.

I envy those of you who were able to meet him in person. What a great guy, what a tremendous loss. Grizz, you will be missed.

Rest in Peace

..very sorry to hear that!... he is in a better place!... God Bless him!


...do we know what happened Sanders!?

...in regards to the thread... i find this stuff too confusing for my little brain, maybe thats why i still think a missile hit the Pent`!?,...will have to read through it all again i think!

...you say you find Tsarion`s conclusions amusing!..does that mean he is wrong and your right!?..dont take me out of context here... i am not being condescending... i just think this subject is deep and entangled i find it hard to believe anyone can get the whole thing 100% right!

...regards and keep up the research!

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....showtopic=16990

Grizz/OceansFlow died of a heart attack a few days ago. Very sad, he will be greatly missed by many people.

Regarding Tsarion, did I really say I found his conclusions amusing!?? How RUDE of me!!!! Let me know in what post so I can change it - I must have been drunk.

Here's my problems with Tsarion - he is very smart and very convincing, but doesn't always back his conclusions up with anything other than his own confidence in them. He thinks civilization started in Ireland - it may have, but I'm not convinced. I think rather that Sumer, Ireland, the Indus Valley, Egypt, the area north of the Black Sea, and pockets around the Levant and Anatolia ALL developed together and influenced one another from early on, I think scholars give these peoples far too little credit for their ability to travel by ship and trade with each other, I think it's almost meaningless to say who was first. (If I remember correctly, there are artifacts from Ugarit, near the border between modern Turkey and Syria on the coast that are 7000 years old!)

Tsarion also thinks Akhenaton was Moses. Maybe he was, but there are some solid arguments that refute the idea - I posted them in this thread somewhere.

Regarding Akhenaton, first some quick background. "Aton" comes from the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaton (or vice versa), and was a solar-cult. Akhenaton got rid of or minimized the importance of all but a single solar-disc diety (Aten/Aton), and it caused a lot of grief. He was generally hated and later after Akhenaton was gone from the scene the other dieties were restored. The idea of a single male (solar/storm) god appeared again with the congealing of the Jewish and Christian religions, and Tsarion suggests that it was this Solar-cult left over from Akhenaton which was ultimately responsible and lies at the root of monotheism. I tend to agree with him.

From wikipedia: "Aten (or Aton) was the disk of the sun in ancient Egyptian mythology, and originally an aspect of Ra. He became the deity of the monotheistic — in fact, monistic — religion Atenism of Amenhotep IV, who took the name Akhenaten. The worship of Aten seemed to stop shortly after Akhenaten's death. In his poem "Hymn to Aten," Akhenaten praises Aten as the creator, and giver of life."

Tsarion's general view, as I read him, is that the Aton solar-cult perverted the ancient pagan belief system (as well as the true teachings of Jesus - who was a messianic "dragon" king - something on which I also tend to agree with him) resulting ultimately in the monotheistic Jewish and Christian religions. Basically you have the Solar-cult behind organized religion on the one side, and the druids and the pagan-dragon-cults they connect with, including I assume the non-Aton-cult dynastic Egyptians, in opposition. Someone correct me if I'm reading him wrong (I don't think I am). So far Tsarion and I are on the same page, but he tends to paint the solar-cultists in a less than favorable light without applying the same brush to the ideological anscestors of our occultist ruling elite, the 'Great Mother' worshipping side of the spectrum. For example, he describes the Lion of Judah as the 'Aton-cult Lion', but Cybele (Great Mother cult of Anatolia) is found in artifacts accompanied by two lions. Samson's (associated with the Lion) parentage was tribe of Dan (father) and tribe of Judah (mother), and was "to be a 'Nazirite' from birth" (wikipedia quote). The tribe of Dan was decidedly pagan, Samson clearly is a parallel of Hercules, which is a figure of the Greek pagan pantheon, and even Tsarion agrees that 'Nazir' like so many other similar terms meant dragon. There are lions and dragons together adorning the Assyrian Ishtar Gate, (Ishtar being another form of the 'Great Mother'). I'm not sure what all that means, but I would say it goes against the argument that the Lion is a symbol of Aton/Aten.

Returning to my original train of thought, this dividing the world ideologically into solar-cult monotheists and dualistic dragon-cult pagans/Kabbalists might be a little simplistic, but I think in general terms it is both a valid and useful distinction. But I have also come to believe that painting one or the other as inherently good or bad is a little hazardous (despite the fact that I myself have done so in this thread), and that the salient point is rather that the two have battled for power behind the scenes for millenia. Just one small example, the Knights of Columbus is a Catholic masonic order - formed because Masons did not welcome Catholics. Furthermore, as a consequence of this ongoing struggle one camp would often don the trappings of or try to infiltrate and corrupt the other ... the Catholics ursurped the Merovingian line beginning with the Carolingians, and later (going back the other direction) the dualists got their own popes appointed, leading to the Templars and the Crusades. Later beginning in the 13th century I see the Catholics (solar-cult-monotheists?) getting control again and ridding Europe of the Cathars, but also beginning around this time begins the reigns of the Germanic Holy Roman Emperors, who I put in the "dragon" camp ...Sigismund (Emperor 1433–1437) of the House of Luxembourg (and King of Hungary) actually had his own Order of the Dragon (where Dracula got his name through his father). John, author of 'Ladon-Gog', has no compunction with associating these Germanic houses (Hohenstaufen, Wittelsbach, Luxembourg and Hapsburg) with the dragon-cult, in fact he shows that the Flinstones cartoon is a description of these houses and their relationships, right down to the colors of their outfits, in code! (I think Fred Flinstone represents Frederick I Barbarossa and/or Frederick II, two of the first of these Germanic Emperors from the house of Hohenstaufen, Barney is the house of Brunswick - hence his brown theme, Betty's blue matches the blue crest of the house of Wettin, and I think Wilma represents Flemish influences - anyway John has it all worked out). Furthermore, I have shown here in this thread how some of these important Germanic families descended from Vikings (through Varangian Rus), Huns (through Hungarian Magyar and Khazar families), and Byzantine royal lines, which I do not class with the ("solar-cult"?) Catholics of Rome BTW.

Confused? I don't blame you.

When you follow the threads backward through time from Freemasons and bankers and general modern-day-pirates who attempt to run the world, you arrive at a nexus of these Germanic houses, later tied up with the Rosecrucian and Illuminati movements and Jewish banking elite, the Templar banking knights, and royal lines in Britain that trace back to Normans with Viking (and to some extent Cathar) roots. (Conspicuous examples being crusading families from Lusignan, Toulouse, Anjou, etc. and families like Vere, Drummond, Sinclair, Bruce, Warren and many others.) Not only did many of these families intermarry through the centuries, with a penchant for linking and re-linking eastern and western branches, evidence of these relationships and the evolution of the bloodlines can be seen in the many family crests. When I say "eastern" and "western", I classify families rooted in migrations into Europe from Viking and Saxon lands to the north-east or from Cathar-rich south-western Gaul (France), as well as people like the Picts of Scotland, as "western"; whereas I classify blood-lines that accompanied incursions into Germania from Hungary, Khazaria and Byzantium as "eastern".

While many of these ruling families were outwardly Christian, I don't see any threads of the modern "conquering elite" tracing back to Rome, as it were. I DO see all of the threads tracing back through the Greek theatre (mostly on the Trojan side) and ultimately back to the Mesopotamia/Levant/Anatolia/Black Sea regions, and what I see common to all the threads is paganistic and Kabbalah roots. This I believe is why the ruling elite find it fun to watch mock sacrifices at Bohemian Grove, why the Freemasons are so powerful (either the Templar knights hid within Freemasonry or the Freemasons were an outspring of the Templars), and why Jewish and Gentile bankers and politicians, as well as Masons, get along so famously.

Admittedly I'm painting with a broad brush here, all I can say is this is the impression which has formed in my own mind from reading lots of things from many diverse sources (including Tsarion), and investigating on my own.

Tsarion certainly has done great research work. In my opinion though he is focused on the solar-cult of Aton (some say Aten) to the exclusion of how this "dragon-cult" I am speaking of evolved OUTSIDE of the Egyptian-Irish link (which he has explored).

Does that make any sense?

..........................

Also, I made a very interesting discovery recently. This is a rough read but very illuminating -

http://www.masseiana.org/bbbk18.htm

He/she goes into great detail about the solar-cult of Aton/Aten and what can be derived from Egyptian primary sources about an "Exodus" (or several of them), which I haven't read through enough to comment on.

Observe however the Egyptian connections between the 'Great Mother', the hippopotamus, Cabiri, and Egyptian terms like khep or kheb:



This Egyptian term 'Kheb' and its variants Khep/kapu listed above appear to describe the 'Great Mother', original creation, and the pregnant belly anthropomorphized in the form of the hippopotamus. I have been convinced by John (Ladon-Gog) of the Kabbalah roots of the cult of Cybele/Kybele, the ancient 'Great Mother' religion of Anatolia, and you can even see 'Kabbalah' in 'Kybele' if you squint your eyes a little bit. I went into the business of the Latin word Caballo (horse) deriving possibly from knight servitude and/or the importance of the horse in Cybele worshipping Anatolian cultures, and that our word "Cabal" likely also derives from Kabbalah somehow, as the first secretive 'mystery religions' were the Sabazios/Kybele worshipping cults of Anatolia, Thracia and the Caucasus).

I shoved Sabazios and Kybele together there with a slash between since Saba and Kybele are apparently intimately connected. I quoted this from John in an earlier post, but it's worth repeating, it even connects all of this stuff with the Viking pagan pantheon which I have mostly ignored:

http://www.tribwatch.com/sheba.htm

(from about a third the way down the link)



My note - do not automatically equate 'Hebrew' with Judaism. Technically Hebrews are descendents of Eber, way up the genealogical chain from Abraham.

Secondly, many won't see how Saba/Sheba terms could be corruptions of Kaba or the Egyptian Khep/Kheb/Kepu (or vice versa), but notice that in English our 'C' consonant can carry either a hard 'K' sound or an 'S' sound. SO, to clarify, Saba, just like Kaba (root of Kabbalah) signifies Great Mother worship, whereas Saba and the Greek paternal god Zeus (Dios) are jammed together to get Sabazios, and the resulting diety takes the male form. This by the way, I am almost certain, is the horseman of the logo of the Council on Foreign Relations, another 'mystery religion'-like secretive "cult" open only to invitees, if I may describe it in those terms.

Lastly, neither I nor John in the above quote are actually equating 'Saba' with 'Kaba' or Sheba with Kybele directly, but simply noting the intimate connection. John's chapter is in fact titled 'Sheba Conquers Kybele', and he goes into some detail about the relationship between the two.

Before I reveal my last revelation, remember that the 'dragon-cult' slithered all the way from Sumer through the Indus Valley to China, hence the Chinese 'dragon-throne' and Chinese pyramids ... and that the concept of the pregnant belly of the 'Great Mother' in Egypt was anthropomorphized in the form of the hippopotamus ...


It just occurred to me that Hippopotamus in Japanese is 'Kaba'.

!!!!!!!

Coincidence?

The Hippopotamus lives in Africa. I have heard it said that humans started there, too.
Possibly in the rift valley. It's interesting that the ground throughout the rift valley is covered with chips of obsidian (volcanic glass) This was spread there by early man, making sharp tools.

[Disclaimer:

I wrote the posts in this thread (those under my name) as I embarked on a path of research, motivated purely by an intense curiosity, and I marked my discoveries along the way here in this thread. I was fascinated by the use of occult symbology in our media (and other clues), and the more I investigated the more I saw that the history, in fact "world-view" that we have all been told to accept is mostly balony. (I stand by that 100%.) However I concluded too fast that there was a linear connection between the self-annointed managers of our country (and, to a large and increasing degree, our planet) and an ancient "dragon" culture. And I have (somewhat mistakenly) described this culture as of a "conquering" nature in many of my posts. While I learned a great deal on my search for answers, and while the reader might find some of my posts interesting, I have discovered that my overriding view of the big picture was wrong.

The true dragons were a wise and just sub-race of Kings and Queens of antiquity, and they have been all but gone for a thousand years - exterminated by the Church and her clients, the long string of usurpers who traded loyalty to Rome in return for its (fraudulent) recognition of kinghood. The Templars were not dragons (I don't think), they were rather a military arm of the dragons, from whom they split and pursued their own interests. William the Conqueror may have had some dragon blood in him, but he was first a warrior and his loyalties lied with his own power-grab - he killed many true "dragons" (the elven Picts) during his brutal subjugation of the north of England - and, the descendents of his warrior co-usurpers from Normandy, "bully-boys" as they have been described, who comprised the moneyed-elite of America throughout much of its history, were no better despite their claims of blue-bloodedness. Far worse are the bankers, often the descendents of those Norman colonists, who have taken their place. None of these people who have caused so much anquish in pursuit of their own monetary gain throughout modern history are "true" dragons, though I suspect they cling to imagined thread-thin connections to those ancient families, while they have hijacked the symbology and 'religion' (for lack of a better word) of the ancient cults in pursuit of their own bloated vision of themselves as overlords of us "stupid sheep".

If you want to know about the true "dragon blood-line", don't bother with my drivel, read instead "The Dragon Legacy" or any other of the works of Nicholas de Vere.]




I'm quite partial to Elaine Morgan's Aquatic Ape theory.
http://www.aquaticape.org/

My neighbors' son has webbed toes.
He is a very fast swimmer.

The human fetus goes through all sorts of changes, in becoming a baby.
All the stages of evolution are carried out in 9 months, and seen in the growth of a baby, in the womb.
...But the gilled stage is way before the hairy stage.
So I would conclude that we (our distant ancestors) were monkeys, long after we were fish.
but we have been humans for much longer than science has revealed, so far.
This is going back much farther than 7000 years.

I would say, looking long term at modern humans,
Antarctica was Atlantis, only 60 million years ago, it was subtropical.
South Africa was at the South pole back then.

...sorry for going pre-topic.
But this does, sort of, explain the word similarities across the world.
Different languages are mutant dialect of a similar very ancient tongue,
that was common to all people long, long, ago.

EDIT: Hey lunk, we cross-posted.



Well, yes, the "fish" stage in our evolution is much much older than the ape stage, what Morgan proposes is simply that, like wales and dolphins, we had a stage in our development where primates went BACK to a semi-aquatic environment and lost hair, gained fat, walked upright etc. As for my mention of 7000 year old artifacts, I should clarify that what I was talking about was the origins of civilization, i.e. organized communities, writing, things like that.

As for the neighbor with webbed toes, yes, I've heard of that before. I find that VERRRY interesting. Maybe a few 'humans' had advanced to that stage of aquatic adaption ... and as newly upright homo-sapiens returned to land as the seas retreated, this became an all but extinct recessive gene. Cool stuff.

.....................

(start of original post)

I found two separate passages where John (Ladon-Gog) explains his "Flintstone" discovery. I don't know enough about these dynastic houses to adequately wrap my head around it, so I'll just quote him directly (from two separate online works) -

The first passage leads into the Flintstone-Brandenburg revelation, I include it because he talks about the Muses of Avalon and the Viking Clare (Sinclair) family (descendents of Rollo the Viking) which I have discussed. Inger mentioned in the first paragraph (whose name I've bolded) is none other than Inger the Scandinavian, husband of Melissena the granddaughter of Byzantine Emperor Michael I Rangabe and likely real-life candidate for the half-sea-serpent Melusine of legend:



Then on to the Flintstones:


www.tribwatch.com/crispin.htm

And from a separate chapter:


www.tribwatch.com/updateIraqAug6.htm

I've been boning up on these Germanic Holy Roman Emperors and Bavarian/Brandenburg dynasties (that derive from a mix of Saxon/Viking and Khazar/Hungarian roots and feed into the current royal British family) and then re-read that last post (quotes from John) about the Flintstones ... WOW !!!!

The fact that the creators at Hanna-Barbera even made Fred and Barney members of a Masonic lodge just floors me -

......................

Changing the subject ... again. I stumbled onto the family crest of Warren. It is blue and gold checks, very similar to the Cohen and Stewart crests, and includes the Lion of Judah - in fact, the family motto is "The Lion of Judah is our Strength". ... Also, as you might have guessed, recieved lands and title from William the Conqueror for distinguished service at the battle of Hastings.



Now check out this page from the JDA genealogy site, a certain Eleanor Plantagenet de Warrenne -
http://fabpedigree.com/s045/f376543.htm




This woman is a real train wreck of dragon blood - Hughes of Lusignan on one side, royal Plantagenet and de Clare (of Rollo the Viking lineage) on the other, and look who's also there, her grandfather, William (the) Marshall, the Protector!!! (of king John fame). Sorry, I didn't realize the significance of this 'Warrenne' clan ... and now that I see that their crest is the substantial blue and gold checks I won't be overlooking this Warrenne name ever again.

Now, there are a lot of Warrens out there in the world, probably 90% of whom have no idea of their exhalted heritage, but there are undoubtedly some that do. One of those that did might be Sir Charles Warren, a Freemason and English police commissioner who was involved in the unsolved 'Jack the Ripper' murders - many believe he was a co-conspirator or at least helped cover up the crimes. The murders are deemed to have been "masonic" in nature, as is represented in the movie 'From Hell' about the killings starring Johnny Depp.

Charles Warren met with Cecil Rhodes on occasion, and led the first British excavation under the Temple Mount (to see what he could find).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Warren



Jeeeze, the dots practically connect themselves.

Amending - I apologized at the beginning of this post for changing the subject, but really I haven't ... Fred Flintstone represents the Hohen clan - red checks ... Warrenne is of the blue-check variety, connected to the Cohen clan. Cohen and Hohen coats of arms are identical, except the Hohens use red check while the Cohens use blue. Did I not point out that the K/C and H consonants are frequently interchangable, as in Hazi and Kassi?

So where's the 'dragon' in the Flintstones cartoon??? Why, it's the only character who isn't expressedly a representation of a Germanic dynasty .... Dino !!!

..well Sanders!... bewildered!... i thought i best go back and start on page one again....

...looking at the project Camelot Svali link again!

...

...written 2002... even more interesting now ay!?

Yeah, things are playing out just as she said. I saw your post and went back and read more on Svali too ... seems she went underground 3 years ago - people were worried but it appears she is safe.

If she's for real, then I've been way too conservative in my thinking. She says she doesn't know anything about Bohemian Grove, but that there's a similar deal that goes on in Canada which she attended - where an actual sacrifice occurred, the deed done in the arms of a bronze statue of Ba'al - much like what the cults of the Levant and Anatolia did. She says the cult is not a Jewish cult, much as I've been saying. What I get from her is that the cult includes outwardly Jewish (and Christian, and Mason for that matter) members, but that the spirituality of the cult is not monotheistic. She says the German Hanover bloodlines are near the top - just after I had been reading about that string of Germanic royal houses/Holy Roman Emperors (reflected in the Flintstones cartoon). She says "the financiers, dating back to the bankers during the times of the Templar Knights who financed the early kings in Europe, created the Illuminati. Weishaupt was their "go fer", who did their bidding. " She says the French & English Rothschilds and the American Rockefellers each has a seat on a "Supreme World Council". She says the spiritual roots of the cult stretch back to Mesopotamia (Babylon is the word she uses), Egypt and the Druids (the same conclusion I've arrived at). She mentions that all marriages are arranged, often to strengthen or preserve bloodlines. There are some things she says that surprised me as well, if what she says is true then I had no idea how closely the 'Illuminati' and the Vatican are tied together - or, I should say, to what extent the "Illuminati" has infiltrated the Catholic Church.

Jeeeze, my head is spinning after reading some of that. Heavy stuff.

Her own web site was taken down, much of what she has written is unavailable (I tried to access some pages on the wayback machine and they were blocked), but this has a lot of what she explains organized under topics:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopol...li01b.htm#menu2

I just discovered this website yesterday and I cannot get enough of it. I am on The Dragon Bloodline right now because that is my main interest. May I suggest that you read Merlin Stone's "When God was a Woman" which will answer many of your questions about early symbols. The reason the bull has the moon between his horns is that the symbol for the Goddess has always been the cow; A cow mates with a bull – to show respect for the Great Goddess the moon, which is the symbol for female like the sun is for male, is carried between his horns. The implication of this is that he will always be devoted to and support her.

I also suggest The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Symbols by Barbara Walker. You must remember that during these early eras The Great Goddess was worshiped by all. The Sun God did not become prominent until much later. The Goddess was triple in nature - maiden, mother, crone - which was the basis for the trinity - also the threes in our lives= past, present, future, etc.

You are to be commended on your research as well as your presentation. There is a hellofalot of work showing here. Thank You. Sea Gypsy

On the Svali thing, I recommend this book (and a few others):

They Cast No Shadows by Brian Desborough

http://www.steamshovelpress.com/offlineillumination10.html

"Historical, religious and political truths have been withheld from the general public in order to perpetuate armed conflict," he continues. "Similarly if the presently suppressed technology were to be made commercially available, disease, famine and environmental pollution virtually would become eradicated."

EDIT: Hello and welcome seagypsy.

Thanx for your kindness, seagypsy ... as you read through this you'll see that I slowly catch on to the importance of the "great mother" or mother Goddess. There is also a post or two that deal with the bull, the horns, the moon, the vessel - (though not in great depth) somewhere in the middle of the thread. Appreciate your comments as well.

Sanders, in your research, have you found a symbol that looks like this?

I'm wondering if it is early Spanish?

No, I haven't ...

Looks like a Phoenix to me

That's a very ubiquitous symbol, which is why I suspect it's a phoenix - I see the wings, the talons, the long tail.

As I've noted in this thread the Phoenix, which like Phoenicia was named for the brother of the Egyptian Cadmus (of Greek Myth) - or vice versa, is a counter-balancing figure to the dragon in Chinese culture, was combined with the dragon in MesoAmerica, and the resurrection theme associated with the Phoenix is, I believe, at the root of the resurrection themes in later religions. (Zeitgeist, I might add, misses this, and wrongly fixes the origins of the resurrection theme with Horus, who never died and was never resurrected ... I have very mixed feelings about Zeitgeist for reasons such as this - Peter Joseph correctly opins that the trappings of modern Christianity were constructed on the basis of older pagan concepts, but he offers erroneous evidence.) This resurrection theme appears to me to be connected with the idea of descending into the underworld and then returning - there were 3 types of Greek Gods - those who habited the earth or the heavens, those that habited the underword, or those who could travel between both freely, the later, one of which was Hermes if I remember correctly, being notably significant for that special power.

As for if that cave-drawing is really the Phoenix or not, I'm not sure, it's just a guess.

Although I think I mentioned Quetzalco(a)tl long ago on this thread, could he be Southwestern or South/Central American lunk? There are some interesting legends about the Maya and Anasazi having migrated northward at points between 800-1600 A.D.

On Quetzalcoatl:

"QUETZALCOTL- the God of Central and South America who was credited with the creation and development of civilisation. Interestingly, Quetzalcotl was the God whom Cortez and his conquistadors were mistaken for, leading to the almost total destruction of the Aztec culture."

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/fringedweller/mythology.htm

----------------------
"QUETZALCOTL...

Toltec and Aztec god and legendary ruler of Mexico, usually referred to as the Plumed, or Feathered, Serpent, the translation of his Nahuatl name. In the 10th century AD the Toltecs transformed what had been a god of soil fertility, worshiped in Teotihuacán before the 9th century, into a deity associated with the morning and evening star, Venus. The Aztecs later made him a symbol of death and resurrection and a patron of priests."

http://website.lineone.net/~deathwalker/general.htm#quetz
----------------------
"COMING OF QUETZALCOATL

The figure of Quetzalcoatl, the Great White Father, king of Gods, Ruler and Teacher of Men, appears for the first time, luminous, white-robed, blue-eyed, against a lurid parade of the primitive gods across the sky, above the people whom Quetzalcoatl arouses from intellectual and spiritual torpor. The figure of Quetzalcoatl is Orozco's own conception of this deity. The figures of the older deities are inspired by the ancient Indian representations in stone. They are, respectively, the God of Greed, clothed in the skins of his victims; the God of Magic, with feet of smoking mirrors; the God of Rain and Storm, a figure with a conventionalized twin-serpent mask; the God of Death, ominous dark figure with skeletal mask; the blue God of War, with feet of feathers as symbols of stealth; and the God of Fire, rising flame-like out of his home, the volcano Orizaba. Quetzalcoatl rises above the pyramids of Teotihuacan, temples of his worship. To the right of the sleeping figures, in the shelter of an abstract suggestion of a Toltec house, is a conversing group symbolic of the beginnings of understanding and cooperation, qualities which Orozco considers basic in any advanced civilization.

...
THE DEPARTURE OF QUETZALCOATL

According to the legend, Quetzalcoatl's departure from the land was brought about by the machinations of priests and magicians seeking to counteract his beneficent influence and to regain control for the powers of darkness. Witchcraft and human sacrifice were reestablished, and in their wake came war, disease, and the destruction of the great Toltec city, Tollan. The effective composition of evil figures against a pyramidal design in red-pinks suggests these ominously tragic events which result in the departure of the disappointed messiah. Quetzalcoatl, renounced by his people, departs into the East, whence he came, borne on a raft of serpents, prophesying that he will return in five hundred years with other white gods to destroy the civilization of those who denied his precepts, and to set up a new civilization in its stead."

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~library/Orozco/part1.html
------------------------
"Belief in Cortés as Quetzalcoatl and the fall of Tenochtitlan
Quetzalcoatl in human form, using the symbols of Ehecatl, from the Codex Borgia.

It has been widely believed that the Aztec Emperor Moctezuma II initially believed the landing of Hernán Cortés in 1519 to be Quetzalcoatl's return. This has been questioned by some ethnohistorians, like Matthew Restall, who argues that the Quetzalcoatl-Cortés connection is not found in any document that was created independently of post-Conquest Spanish influence, and that there is little proof of a pre-Hispanic belief in Quetzalcoatl's return."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quetzalcoatl
----------------------
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Atrium/431...EXICALINKS.html

Pre-Columbian Culture Links
http://www.lonedeer.com/precol.html

I found these pictographs, under a huge rock overhang.
The story is that a Spanish armada came up the West Coast of North America,
took some local Indians as hostages, stayed over winter,
and then the Spanish were ambushed and scarred over a cliff.
This happened before there was a USA or a Canada.
The only historical note is these pictographs.

Here is a drawing of the Spanish on horseback with a gun.
Note the brimmed hat.


Here are the Indians that they shackled, by the neck and guarded with dogs.

http://209.85.122.85/10705/189/0/p1005992/...gs_IMG_0234.jpg

Here is another, notice the head dress.
http://209.85.122.85/10705/189/0/p1005995/...mp_IMG_0237.jpg

There was also drawings of a cross and a cross with a loop at the top, sideways on a seam. I think this was before Christianity arrived in Western North America.

Lunk, did YOU take those photos?? Far out ! Where exactly? Do you think they are really pre-Columbian?

[quote name='dMole' date='Apr 24 2009, 05:50 PM' post='10770421']
On the Svali thing, I recommend this book (and a few others):

They Cast No Shadows by Brian Desborough

http://www.steamshovelpress.com/offlineillumination10.html

"Historical, religious and political truths have been withheld from the general public in order to perpetuate armed conflict," he continues. "Similarly if the presently suppressed technology were to be made commercially available, disease, famine and environmental pollution virtually would become eradicated."

EDIT: Hello and welcome seagypsy.

Thank you and once again I am fascinated by what I am finding on your website. I have not seen the older meaning of the Star of David mentioned here concerning the Illuminati and wondered if you knew about it. It is called the Hiero Gamos and is symbolic of sexual copulation rather than the Jewish Star. This is what it means to the Illuminatists as origionally, when High Priestesses lived in the Temples they would copulate with anyone who wanted illumination believing that the point of joint climax (the Priestesses were trained in how to achieve this) brought the greatest illumination achievable in the physical world. A uniting of the sacred with the physical. The down pointing triangle in the Hiero Gamos represents the female with the up pointing triangle representing the male. This is what is really meant when the Star of David is displayed. Remember all of the sex in "Eyes Wide Shut" that was committed under the seal. In actuality, it has noting at all to do with what we would suppose and certainly not Judiasm. If you Google "Hiero Gamos or Sacred Marriage" you will find many articles concerning this. Thank you

I haven't talked about "sacred prostitutes" here at all, but have read much about the practice. The sacred-earthly consecration concept is ubiquitous in all this. And yes, the Megan David is a representation of female-male, good-evil bonding, I have spoken of it often. The self-castration of the Galli priests of Rome is the most shocking example of this aspect of Great-Mother worship. The Megan-David's use as a Jewish symbol is relatively recent historically, as I'm sure you know, is used also in Masonry, and screams evidence of the hijacking of the Jewish faith in service of the elite. Unfortunately, the Jews of the world, like 'War on Terror-gulping' America, buy it all up.

The symbol is Pagan. The elite are pagan. Sacrificing 3000 souls in New York to initiate their 'Order out of Chaos' agenda is a Pagan rite. Kill a million in Iraq? Cool. That's always been their game. Order out of Chaos. The Megan-David is a symbol of that very concept - in addition to the Male-Female meaning - they are all intertwined with regards to that philosophy, and religion, especially the Catholic and Muslim religions (which are connected at the hip) and the family values which they espouse are their time-honored enemy. (I'm not religious in any way by the way, but I see who has been battling who for all these years for control of the planet's people - no surprise to me that Morgan/Rockefeller/FED associated banks are presently at war with Vatican-associated Bank of America).

I recommend that lunk responds via PM to this (personal???) question (and cc's me too, because it would appear that lunk and I have some strange Rocky Mtn. "accounting" to do here).

My $0.02 US

EDIT: I have a couple of friends who are/were/have been professional photographers. They have offered to take me to some of their "private" sites, but they don't publicly disclose the location of Native American pictographs because of the long-standing vandalism that has plagued such sites...

Yes.

#15, VERY early on...

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10747774

I agree absolutely - the banking cartels are ready to shut down the world but I did not know that they were at war with the Vatican banking cartels. I thought they were together. I also have been reading about the Asian/China Illuminati Cartels and the hold that they have on that part of the world. They are heavily involved with drugs on a massive scale, not news at all, but something that is not generally considered by us Westerners. I know that you have seen Zeigheist Part 3 which explains all of that and is the best illustration I have seen in a long time (next to your website that is) I just cannot believe that the general public ignores all of this information. It is all so "out there" and IMHO is no longer a part of Conspiracy Theories as it is now just established fact that this is happening. I suppose the GP will all go willingly to become "Chipped"