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lunk
QUOTE (KP50 @ Apr 8 2010, 06:59 PM) *
She might mean Debrett's - that came straight into my head as an ex-Pat pom. Specifically

"Still available are Debrett's classic editions such as Debrett's Peerage & Baronetage"

from www.debretts.com

http://www.debretts.com/people.aspx

claims to provide "Free access to over 25,000 biographies and an essential guide to the peerage, the royal family and the honours system..." which may keep Sanders out of trouble for a while .......


Ha ha, peerage. Only inherited, but you can get a temporary(?!) life peerage, that can't be passed down to your children, if bestowed by the monarch.

This is fascinating, but i cant seem to find just a simple family tree.

...So i went to the Queen,
well, Her official website.
http://www.royal.gov.uk/HistoryoftheMonarc...eofWindsor.aspx

And finally, excitedly, found a pdf link, that read:
QUOTE
The present Queen has familial ties with most of the monarchs in Europe. Download a family tree showing the relationships of The Queen to European monarchies.


It didn't work.

ugh.
Sanders
[Disclaimer:

I wrote the posts in this thread (those under my name) as I embarked on a path of research, motivated purely by an intense curiosity, and I marked my discoveries along the way here in this thread. I was fascinated by the use of occult symbology in our media (and other clues), and the more I investigated the more I saw that the history, in fact "world-view" that we have all been told to accept is mostly balony. (I stand by that 100%.) However I concluded too fast that there was a linear connection between the self-annointed managers of our country (and, to a large and increasing degree, our planet) and an ancient "dragon" culture. And I have (somewhat mistakenly) described this culture as of a "conquering" nature in many of my posts. While I learned a great deal on my search for answers, and while the reader might find some of my posts interesting, I have discovered that my overriding view of the big picture was wrong.

The true dragons were a wise and just sub-race of Kings and Queens of antiquity, and they have been all but gone for a thousand years - exterminated by the Church and her clients, the long string of usurpers who traded loyalty to Rome in return for its (fraudulent) recognition of kinghood. The Templars were not dragons (I don't think), they were rather a military arm of the dragons, from whom they split and pursued their own interests. William the Conqueror may have had some dragon blood in him, but he was first a warrior and his loyalties lied with his own power-grab - he killed many true "dragons" (the elven Picts) during his brutal subjugation of the north of England - and, the descendents of his warrior co-usurpers from Normandy, "bully-boys" as they have been described, who comprised the moneyed-elite of America throughout much of its history, were no better despite their claims of blue-bloodedness. Far worse are the bankers, often the descendents of those Norman colonists, who have taken their place. None of these people who have caused so much anquish in pursuit of their own monetary gain throughout modern history are "true" dragons, though I suspect they cling to imagined thread-thin connections to those ancient families, while they have hijacked the symbology and 'religion' (for lack of a better word) of the ancient cults in pursuit of their own bloated vision of themselves as overlords of us "stupid sheep".

If you want to know about the true "dragon blood-line", don't bother with my drivel, read instead "The Dragon Legacy" or any other of the works of Nicholas de Vere.]



There are important links that aren't for general consumption.

Like, was Rabbi Makhir the father of William of Gellone? 'Cause that would make half the nobility of Medieval France part-Jewish. Scholars say no. I and others lean yes. The Brit-Israeli people like to advertise that the Queen carries the blood of the Israelites in her veins, but we aren't allowed to know definitively - it has to be only a vague notion.

George, who begot the Drummond clan and probably carried the Khazar blood of Melissena to Scotland is a mystery - almost nothing is known about him, Wikipedia doesn't even list him as a son of Andrew I King of Hungary, which he was. Queen Margaret was probably another vessel of Khazar blood which she imported in her veins from Hungary, but we don't know for sure, all we know about her mother was her name.

Yaroslav the Wise was almost certainly a vessel of the blood of Melissena, from his mother Anna Porphygenita ... but almost all sources rely on Nestor the Chronicler who almost certainly misrepresents Yaroslav's birth to fix it during Vladimir's marriage to Rogneda of Polotsk ... yet Yaroslav's bones were tested and dated, placing his birth 10 years later, after Vladimir married Anna. At every turn, these critical connections which might become important to anyone wanting to know why the nobility of Europe and England have been carrying the cross of Zionism all these centuries, are vague, unknown, or vigorously contested. (Drives me nuts.)

I've made some interesting discoveries recently ... not pretty.

I've talked about Melissena - her Khazar blood flowed generously into the Houses of Europe mostly through Yaroslav (and Arlogia ?), children of Vladimir I Grand Prince of Kiev by his Byzantine wife Anna Porphygenita. Pagan for the first half of his life, Vladimir converted to Christianity (a condition of marriage to Anna Porphygenita) for the last part of his life. (Married 6 or 7 times, 20 or more legitimate children, kept hundreds of concubines around his kingdom, pretty ruthless as well.)

The family coats of arms of Vlad:



Remember, the star of David (Magen David) didn't become a Jewish symbol till the end of the 19th century - this crest of Vlad is much much older, yet is practically the flag of Israel.

"John" has figured all this out - unfortunately, the chapters of Ladon Gog are so dense with information and references to myths and towns and families of Europe that it is very difficult to negotiate through.

http://www.tribwatch.com/ladon.htm

I was wrong in my thinking though - I was looking all this time for how Jewish blood got mixed with that of the Vikings and Franks. I assumed this royal Jewish element derived from the Kagans of Khazaria. I was wrong, it was already there. The kings of the Vikings and Salian Franks both appear to trace back to Egypt and to the biblical Levant, all the clues I've dug up and various genealogy charts say the same thing with regard to the rulers of these two peoples. They both ultimately trace back to the Trojan kings and to Dardanus who (allegedly) migrated from Greece to Anatolia, founding Dardania on Mt. Ida (the Turkish Straight nearby is called the Dardanelles to this day). Mt. Ida near Troy was the home of Kybele (the Great Mother and consort of Attis who I have talked so much about. Dardanus descended from, and this is controversial, Zerah, one of the sons of Judah. This is confirmed by several genealogy sites I like, and in the bible one of Zerah's sons is Darda.

Dardanus then sires the Kings of Troy, who spit off into two branches with Tithonius and Prius, two sons of Laomedan King of Troy, and these branches became the proto-Vikings and the proto-Cimmerians -> Salian Franks respectively.

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/1570/trojan.gif
(source: JDA genealogy site)

Even the Greeks support this -

4th century B.C. Greek historian Hecateus of Abdera as quoted by Diodorus Siculus, pertaining to the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt:

QUOTE
“The most distinguished of the expelled foreigners followed Danaus and Cadmus from Egypt; but the greater number were led by Moses into Judæa.”


Danaus and Cadmus, Egyptian princes of Greek myth, went to Greece ... Cadmus traveling there via a stop in Phoenica. Danaus and Dadanus appear to represent the same person or tribe.

Everything jives - except for one other source ... the Greek myths, where Dardanus is the son of Zeus.

Unless, ..... (drum roll) ..... Zeus = Judah.

"John" of 'Tracking Ladon Gog' seems to have come to a similar conclusion. In his own words:

QUOTE
"I was wrong when I said that this story would end in an anti-climactic way. It trembled the core of my soul to find what I have, that Zeus was also "Dion" and therefore the origin of "Zion/Sion." This is very frightening, for one might conclude that the Biblical God of Israel, who honors Zion above all the cities of the earth, was just Zeus, a god that doesn't exist. However, it can be plainly deduced that Zion, a part of Jerusalem, was an entity of the Jebusites when Israelites, via king David, conquered Jerusalem. The Zion name for the city afterward stuck, so as to be used at times by Israelites, wherefore both God and prophet used the term at times. The question I raise and wish to explore more deeply is: do modern (and less-modern Zionists) stem from Israelites, or from the Jebusite and/or Amorite Jerusalemites that gave the world Zeus, Hera, Hebe, Hephaestus, Ares, Ixion, Nephele, the Harpies, and who knowns what more? Surely, these gods and their pagan religions did not originate in Israelite Hebrews."


Not only Zeus, but Ida also appears to be an alteration of 'Judah'. Ida, the mountain home of Kybele near Troy and Ida, another mountain in Crete.

QUOTE
...There is a famous mountain in Crete called Ida; the neighboring tribe, the Idaei, came to be called Judaei by a barbarous [i.e., non-Greco-Roman] lengthening of the national name" (Tacitus, The Histories, Book 5, sec. 2, Great Books of the Western World, 1952, Vol. 15).

http://www.ucg.org/brp/materials/throne/appendices/ap3.html

Excuse me while I try to get my brain turned right-side-up again.
Sanders
Article on the Franks, as well as an addendum to the Hun piece now up -

http://urokomovie.com/franks.shtml
Sanders
OMG, this thread's views broke 20 thousand!

Who are you people out there reading this crap??? laugh.gif

No, I'm joking. It's very dear to me, though I do need to go through it and correct a few errors. I've actually started doing that.

I am constantly adding to my posts on my "dragon-blood-line web-site", 'Uroko' (japanese for scale - "uroko ga me kara ochiru" - 'scales fall from one's eyes' - one wakes up to a truth'). Soon (I hope) I will have a post up about the Crest of Vlad, which has been late in coming and very difficult - it attempts to get to the root of Zionism.

Also I've come across a writer I wasn't aware of, Nesta Webster, whose research is very pertinent to my interests. Her POV is that Kabbalah was the basis for Gnosticism. Something I have alluded to often, but was never confident to say outright.

Not crazy about the guy whose site this is posted on, but it's worth reading for those interested... sort of long. Cheers.

http://iamthewitness.com/books/Nesta.H.Web...ements.htm#ch01
Sanders
Uroko part 11 uploaded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYKZxRejFjg
Sanders
From Carl:
...................

Just ran across this article in the London Times, dated december 27th, 1917 -

The Times pointed out that Fritz Warbug, brother of Paul Warburg from the Fed,
along with other German banksters financed and pushed for the Russian revolution.

Interesting (at least for all who are into the work of David Icke) is that the Times
call these banksters "Reptile Gang".

...Sanders, in case you think this would be better placed in the Dragon Blood Line Thread, feel
free to move it.



short explaination for your convenience:

- Petrograd = St. Petersburg

- Protopopoff = (Alexander Dmitrijewitsch Protopopow, last czarist Secretary of the Interior )

- von Lucius = (Hellmuth Lucius von Stoedten, 1911 counselor of German embassy to St. Petersburg, from 1915 to 1920 German envoy in Stockholm,
was instrumental in establishing the contacts with the russion opposition and revolutionaries, smuggled in Lenin over Switzerland, Germany and Sweden into Russia)

- Boy-Ed = Karl Boy-Ed, naval officer, diplomat and spy; former naval attaché in Washington.
lunk
Very good movie.

i think that humans have been around for much longer than the last 10,000
years.
Some say that we have been here for millions of years.
People are very clever,
and the simpler one lives,
the cleverer one must become.

Yet, in present times, we live in a very complex world,
that is trying to make simple peoples lives, simpler?

Civilizations rise and fall,
and the same old families,
keep running them all.

i think it is more likely that there is a varying ~12,000 year cycle
with the sun. And civilizations, no matter how advanced upon the Earth, are set back to pre-stoneage, rarely, but regularly.
KrNel
Excellent read. Tons of info. Id like to do a refinement of all the data, remove redundant stuff, see where to go from here, make a nice clear picture with sources.
On the psychopaths topic, have you heard of Ponerology?
Sanders
QUOTE (KrNel @ Jun 15 2010, 09:48 PM) *
Excellent read. Tons of info. Id like to do a refinement of all the data, remove redundant stuff, see where to go from here, make a nice clear picture with sources.
On the psychopaths topic, have you heard of Ponerology?


Thanks - yeah, most of what's in here was written haphazardly as it was discovered, there are some errors which I have been trying to sort out over time.

I am tackling this topic again anew at my own site, here:
http://urokomovie.com/posts.shtml

I already want to re-write some of that stuff already, my indecisiveness always stems from how Zionism/Judaism relates to the elite in a broader sense... and though that lies at the crux of the so-called "dragon-cult", I have yet to really get a handle on it.

At the moment, I have put the brakes on any more writing until I fully understand the contents of this single web-page:

http://www.tribwatch.com/SingleFile.htm

I've struggled though most of his earlier chapters over the last several years. This last installment (linked above) is long and jam-packed with difficult infomation, all of which needs to be followed carefully with maps and genealogy charts at hand to keep up.

I'm about half-way through it, and if what he suggests about Rangabe being equivalent with Angevin (as well as many other things, such as that Billung derives from Nebilung, or that major blocks of the family of European elite trace back to Gareb Hill in Jerusalem, or that the Fulks (i.e. of Anjou) derive from Rangabe's son and Melissena's father Theophylactus), turn out to hold true, then WOW.

He's got a lot of evidence on his side. The coat of Rangabe and the coat of Boullion (crusader family) are identical except for a color change, for example.

Whatever the truth turns out to be, I have discovered and proved to my own satisfaction that the current elite, be they Jewish or Christian, all descend from a tightly bound mix of royal Khazars, Vikings, Huns and Franks which engaged in an orgy of intermarrying beginning with their mutual convergence on Europe and Britain a thousand years ago. They all have origins in the Levant - some via Egypt - and are notable for the kinds of religious leanings of the Amorites (which many of them may have been) - i.e., human sacrifice at the alter of Molech.

Which is why I am less inclined to attribute the apparently psychopathic nature of the rulers of the planet to a disease, as to a culture. If you were raised to believe that you were special and superior and that the killing of mass numbers of "sheep" to herald change as per the "Order out of Chaos" theme was not a bad thing but a necessary part of your calling, you would embrace it. It's us, those reared on monotheistic principles of right and wrong that view such a mindset as psychotic.
KrNel
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jun 12 2010, 07:19 AM) *
I already want to re-write some of that stuff already, my indecisiveness always stems from how Zionism/Judaism relates to the elite in a broader sense... and though that lies at the crux of the so-called "dragon-cult", I have yet to really get a handle on it.

What do you mean how it relates in a broader sense? Much like genetic predisposition plays a lesser role from that of environment and culture in psychological development, so does genealogical continuation of power play in the complex geo-political sphere. You can be of 'special' blood, but if the winds shift, you might be shit out of luck. i.e. Are you looking for a more meaningful genetic tie? Or what?


QUOTE (Sanders @ Jun 12 2010, 07:19 AM) *
At the moment, I have put the brakes on any more writing until I fully understand the contents of this single web-page:

http://www.tribwatch.com/SingleFile.htm

I'm about half-way through it, and if what he suggests about Rangabe being equivalent with Angevin (as well as many other things, such as that Billung derives from Nebilung, or that major blocks of the family of European elite trace back to Gareb Hill in Jerusalem, or that the Fulks (i.e. of Anjou) derive from Rangabe's son and Melissena's father Theophylactus), turn out to hold true, then WOW.

Koo, that is huge, I remember you linked to it elsewhere.


Btw, this is 'rusix' from TIU PMs.

I see you stopped going to TIU, and your appearance today still didn't get the PM's sent. Mailbox sux.

--- M1
QUOTE
QUOTE

You can read more about the Rothschilds, the Franconian rake, and it's use on the flags of Bahrain and Qatar about half way down this chapter -
http://www.tribwatch.com/semiramis.htm


Haven't read it yet, but of note is Stan Deyo's (Bible guy too) book Vindicator Scrolls in relation to Bahrain and Qatar. He places Atlantis in that Gulf of Persia, prior to the alleged elevation of water that "sunk" it. There seems to be evidence of a lower settlement when water was lower. Apparently there are 100,000 burials on Bahrain from long ago?

He also places Aden (Eden) off north eastern part of north east Ethiopian mountain range, west of Gulf of Aden (which is under Saudi Arabia), into Yemen part of Saudi. Apparently, factoring in the Rodinia, Pangaea, Laurasia tectonic displacement phases, the Tigris, Euphrates, and other rivers in relation to Eden description were around that area.

---M2
QUOTE
I'm almost down first page of your post on pilots 911 truth, and I thought I would mention something else after seeing you pick up Ladon Gog John's Dactyl = Dagon + Tylos.

There's a great book by john Marco Allegro (one of the three original DSS scholars who reconstructed them but published his findings urgently, whilst the other members where establishment and religio influenced who had retained their transliteration of findings until just after Allegros death if I recall) called The Sacred Mushroom. Its about the origin of theological concepts and thought, phallic, mushroom/entheogen and fertility cults, Amanita Muscaria. Anyways, he was a philologist, and explains early in book how he is going to tie Sumeria, ancient Hebrew, ancient Greek, Aramaic, Syrian, Akkadian, Arabic words to show the phallic origins that tie into all the religio-theological movements.

You already know one that you mentioned from Japan:

L and R
B and P
B and V
G and K
M and N
D and T

I believe thats it, there might be occasional L and either M/N. Also, F and P and Ph. Z/T, Z/S, S/Sh possibly. My memory isn't a photograph.

Keep an eye on it in various languages and lexicons, good way to keep track. smile.gif

Peace.

Oh and good job on handling TIU members, they can be... persistent(or annoying? lol) in their attempts to have all info revolve around their central philosophy.

---

I have a ~20MB .doc of notes (with pictures) on this info for this thread. Plan on doing same noteform on info at TIU, then coalesce. Gotta get a clear picture, this shit is very big and important. You have been on this for 2 years. I read this huge post this week and only been on the interest of the topic a few weeks. My grasp is not so deep as lucky you Mr. Eric, or John Gog. wink.gif hehehe

Thank you for all the hard work, and thanks to John Ladon Gog.

I feel this is pivotal to linking past power blocs (real or fictitious, of lesser significance) and their development to present power blocs that affect us now. Minor segmented works have shown such amongst few groups, but never to such a historically maverick grandeur.

Peace.
Sanders
QUOTE
What do you mean how it relates in a broader sense?


Religion.

Whether Jewish and non-Jewish families are tied by a hidden "Gnostic" heritage (I believe they are), and if the establishment of Israel is a goal of the non-Jewish elite independent of the Jewish elite (the former of which who also have historical roots in Canaan), for religious/cultural reasons, or if they are just backing up their financial overlords.

..........................

Interesting that you brought up the interchangeable letters in the Japanese language.

Yes, L and R are of course interchangable.

K and G are related, G is a K with a ".

B is an H with ", P is an H with a small circle.

D is a T with ".

V is not easily represented in Japanese, but is often written as a B or as a U with ".

And the mausoleum in Nikko of Tokugawa Ieyasu, who kicked the Spanish and Portugese out of Japan circa 1600 in favor of the Dutch East India Company, is coverered in dragons.

AND, the Japanese word for Dragon is Ryu, while the ruling family of the Xiong-nu, who the Chinese built the Great Wall to keep out and who became the Huns, was Liu (R and L interchangable), which meant "dragon" in the Xiong-nu tongue (and people in Japan wonder why there are so many Freemasonic temples here!). Some over there at TIU might think something like that irrelevant, but I almost guarantee that the Rothschild family is of Hun ancestry - at least "Hun" in the sense of a Hun federation, which would have included many Turkic tribes, including the Kabars.

.........................

Welcome, rusix, pleased you followed me back here, no I didn't look at my PM box over there (sorry).

I feel posting at TIU is a waste of my time ... and I don't enjoy being called a "shill", I'm not Jewish and have no love for the murdering thugs in Israel - that has little to do with what I'm trying to uncover. John of Ladon Gog has peered into the dark and seen the "holy grail" if you ask me, but he is apparently incapable of making his finds palatable or understandable to the average reader. Maybe I can try and translate some of it - I feel his last installment is very important and revolutionary, but I have not quite figured it out enough to see a big picture emerge enough to put into words. (Give me another week or two smile.gif

There are a lot of sharp minds over there (at TIU) and I learn a lot by reading some of the posts, I am grateful for the info ... but why spend energy to try and convince certain people of a theology that I don't even fully understand myself? (I have enough on my plate.)
KrNel
Thanks for the welcome smile.gif

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jun 12 2010, 12:12 PM) *
Religion.

Whether Jewish and non-Jewish families are tied by a hidden "Gnostic" heritage (I believe they are), and if the establishment of Israel is a goal of the non-Jewish elite independent of the Jewish elite (the former of which who also have historical roots in Canaan), for religious/cultural reasons, or if they are just backing up their financial overlords.

So your thinking of non-"Jewish", with non-Gnostics and Gnostics, with "Jews"?

One important aspect is the Vatican priesthood lineage. Wouldn't be surprised to see Catholic bishops and popes prepped from elite heritage.

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jun 12 2010, 12:12 PM) *
V is unknown, but written as a B or as a U with ".

Thanks, forgot about this one. V / U.

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jun 12 2010, 12:12 PM) *
I feel posting at TIU is a waste of my time ...

Yup, that's why I was only PM'ing you wink.gif

Another poster at TIU, JohnSavage, he got banned by Ognir for his posts on your thread (presumptively because of Fomenko talk LMAO). Maybe you were a bit annoyed at his ambiguous odd claims. He should have provided more info, but that's like asking for an encyclopedia I suppose, one on a radical theory to boot.

Hopefully I can catch up to you soon and dig into new research biggrin.gif

Peace.
Sanders
About Bahrain, Qatar, (Dubai) etc. ... these all lie along the Persian Gulf, which the Sumerians traversed in their trade with the Indus Valley and probably with Punt. Also along this stretch was the mythical land of Inanna, which some of us believe was an area to the east of the Persian Gulf (@ the Straights of Hormuz) known as Kerman.

My eyes lit up when I discovered that, for the mythical gateway from heaven to earth was Mt. Hermon.

K, Ch and H often swapped in these matters - as in Chalybes/Halybes or Hatti/Catti.

Furthermore, Kerman is the birthplace of the domesticated horse, which was central to Trojan culture.

And you also have the name of the nearby straight, Hormuz - being tantalizingly close to Hermes. AND, I have an archaic map of the area where Kerman is marked "Magan", as in the Magan David. Magan/Megan is supposed to mean shield - but why is Kerman called Magan?

I really have no idea, but i suspect that somehow Kerman (once a part of Elam) is very significant.
Sanders
QUOTE (KrNel @ Jun 16 2010, 10:34 AM) *
Thanks for the welcome smile.gif.... <s>


We cross-posted.

I was never annoyed with anyone over there except when I was called an outright shill. I have no problem with people forwarding outside-of-the-box theories. Many of those "nutty" theories prove to be instructive on some level.

About half way down the page I linked to, John of "Ladon Gog" fame touches on some family crests which are all deeply tied to the ruling elite of Europe in it's early stage and which feature the 6 pointed Star (Megan David). Three outstanding ones are Payen, the leader of the Templars, Vlad, for Vladimir whose family is central to the mixing of Khazar and Hun blood with the Frank and Germanic houses, and Goth - as per Saxe-Coburg-Gotha (connection assumed?) which is the current house of Windsor. The last two of these are blue and white, like the Israeli flag, like the arms of Rangabe (and Wittelsbach, and Bavaria, and Luxembourg, and Lusignan, and Drummond, and ....).

If this is not coincidence, which it can't be, then what is the meaning? Herein lies the roots of the dogged insistence of the ruling political establishment in Britain and America to support Israel and Zionism, I believe. I can allude to it, but I can't quite put my finger on it.
KrNel
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jun 12 2010, 01:15 PM) *
Many of those "nutty" theories prove to be instructive on some level.

Yes indeed, Fomenko does prove to be very... transformative for the reader (I would know wink.gif Makes you more critical, but also open to radical alternatives ).

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jun 12 2010, 01:15 PM) *
If this is not coincidence, which it can't be, then what is the meaning? Herein lies the roots of the dogged insistence of the ruling political establishment in Britain and America to support Israel and Zionism, I believe. I can allude to it, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

I don't know... the only weight I put in the color at the moment, is in validating this color coordination with cross-referencing the associated lineages/genealogies. For example, connecting a blue/white crest, with particular symbol, to direct descendant who used the symbol and/or color. Byz, Melissena, Vlad, etc

The Destruction of Baalbek, post at TIU. Could reveal some info. Too bad there isn't a comment to tell us what its about really.
Sanders
I finally have some evidence (courtesy of Ladon-Gog John) of Rothschild ties to the Medieval Germanic elite.

Bavaria got its flag (blue and white checks, which are also featured on the crest of Cohen) from the House of Wittelsbach , and they in turn got the checks from the Counts of Bogen.

QUOTE
The heart shield of white and blue oblique fusils was originally the coat of arms of the Counts of Bogen, adopted in 1247 by the House of Wittelsbach.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Bavaria


Bogen means bow in German, while Bauer (the original name of the Rothschilds), meant Bower (!). In fact, the Bogen family coat of arms is a bow.
http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=bogen

I suspect that the Bogens, like the Bauers, were at least partially Hunnic, going by the name, the crest, and the fact that they first appeared in Bavaria 2 centuries after the Magyar/Kabar migration into Hungary. Probably a Hunnic/Saxon mix, 'cause the Black and Gold colors of the Bogen surname coat are frequently used Saxon colors. The blue and white checks though tell a different story, this advertises Cohen/Kagan origins. (Just like Hohen.)

The genealogy site I like mysteriously lists no Counts of Bogen (very strange - I've never run across a person of any importance that wasn't listed at the JDA website). But I did find a few Counts of Bogen here:

http://www.genealogy.euweb.cz/babenberg/babenberg.html

This is a tree for the House of Babenberg. You will find the Bogens toward the bottom. Up closer to the middle and top you will see a Hohen (Hohenberg, Hohenstaufen) or two listed, the latter of which marry into this Babenberg tree, as well as a Zahringen. Zahringen btw also takes the form Zahringer and can be read Zahr (Czar/Kazar) + "Inger", Inger being Melissena's Varangian husband.

This isn't proof that the Rothschilds are of the same royal stock as the Babenbergs, but it points in that direction...
KrNel
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jun 13 2010, 08:09 AM) *
Bavaria got its flag (blue and white checks, which are also featured on the crest of Cohen) from the House of Wittelsbach , and they in turn got the checks from the Counts of Bogen.

The heart shield of white and blue oblique fusils was originally the coat of arms of the Counts of Bogen, adopted in 1247 by the House of Wittelsbach.

Seven years earlier (1240, allegedly), the blue and white lozenge was adopted by the county of Bogen.

QUOTE
Bavaria: lozengy of white and blue: These are the arms of the Wittelsbach family that ruled Bavaria for nearly a millenium until the monarchies in Germany were abolished in 1918. The arms were inherited by the Wittelsbachs from the counts of Bogen - whose possessions were near the Danube river around Regensburg - in the 13th century. Lozenges in county CoAs are thus often used to indicate that the area of the county has belonged to Bavaria for long times and are more commonly found in the southern and eastern parts of Bavaria - Upper and Lower Bavaria and Upper Palatinate -. In the areas of Franconia and Swabia (north and western parts) other symbols take precedence as these areas were added to Bavaria between 1803 and 1816 - in fact, some people in those areas tend to insist that they are not Bavarians at all.

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/de-by-3.html

Mary adoration:
QUOTE
"The foundation was dedicated in honour of the Virgin Mary and in 1146 raised to the status of an abbey [Windberg Abbey]."


According to a "myth" I presume, this book Descent of the Danube stating that the Virgin is seen floating down the Danube and drifts ashore on Bogen.... Continues to say that Bogens (as he solely refers to them) die out as Albert IV does not have any offspring with Ludmilla of Bohemia.

Bogen crests from end of century (they made minor change), using Virgin Mary symbol, as per reverence to old myth (see above):


Alternative: "sanitary" myth (Christianity based symbol and cover) used to maintain existing symbols while explaining them in acceptable way. I.e. Great Mother pagan worship transformed...

Also, the blue white lozenges (similar to alleged Byz. origin for blue white ( Byzantine because of Melissena? )) adoption in the year 1240 may coincide with the death of Ludmilla of Bohemia (died 14 August 1240). For she -- in the Bogen clan -- is the tie to Byzantine via her father Frederick, who's father is Vladislaus II where the possible Drummond
and Leslie clans stem from.


Of note in neighboring area, Vimperk, Czech, derived from Windberg:
QUOTE
Territorial disputes between the Duchy of Bohemia and the Duchy of Bavaria in the 11th century resulted in the loss of much of the local population. Subsequently the provosts at the Vyšehrad Castle enlisted Benedictian monks from the monastery in Winberg nad Řeznem to colonize the region. In 1174 the monks built the Klášterec Commune and established a colony which they named "Windberg" after their old monastery. In 1195 Albrecht III of Luk, a Bavarian count, built a castle which was given the same name. The names of the town and castle subsequently evolved to Winttmberg, Windterberg, Vimberk, and finally to Vimperk.



Family tree of the Counts of Bogen-Windberg and Domvögte of Regensburg
[Notice in google translate the 'bogen' = 'bow',' arch', 'sheets']

This relates the Windberg and Bogen, becoming Bogen-Windberg.
The Diesson, Hohenburg, Babenberg, Wittelsbachs, Wasserburg , Ostmark, Wettin tie into Bogen-Windberg in various ways. Other older blood: Arpads of Hungary, Melissena of Byz/Khazar passes through.


It does appear to die out (Bogen), via lack of confirmation, but this site has 3 alleged offspring of the last alleged Bogen, Adalbert IV, Count of Bogen-Windberg (1167-1197) with the aforementioned Ludmilla of Bohemia

Her next marriage to Louis/Ludwig I (or II) of Bavaria begets Otto II Wittelsbach, Duke of Bavaria (7 April 1206 – 29 November 1253).

Becomes a 'Wittelsbach' how...? LOL
EDIT: Ludwig (Louis) I WITTELSBACH (Duke) of BAVARIA, is his full name

Confusing stuff, took me the day to get through these fantasy genealogical creations, trying to verify what was what!

Count Friedrich II Diessen-Wasserburg (d. 1074) is Friedrich II Domvogt von Regensburg
Count Dietrich I of WASSERBURG is also known as, Frederick I von WASSENBURG, also associated with 'of Andechs', and 'Isar'
Adalbert I von Babenberg is also Adalbert I of Bogen-Windberg


------ Other stuff to note:


What looks like an interesting book: The Crusades and the military orders: expanding the frontiers of medieval ...

On marriage links between Wittelsbachs, Wasserburg , Ostmark, Diessen and others.

Chapter 31. DOMVÖGTE von REGENSBURG with others in there, WINDBERG, WITTELSBACH, WASSERBERG...


Bogener is another variation I came across in research. The crest is Red /gold with a gray / blue shield, opposed to boger black / gold.
http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=Bogener

Well thats the mess I cam up with LOL.

Peace.
Sanders
Sort of curious about that nail on the Bogener coat - I'm assuming it relates to the crucifixion (particularly since the Bogen crest shows the Virgin Mary)?

Nice work.

Confusing, eh? You find people going under the names of more than one house, houses skipping generations, etc. Plus all the unreliable information when you go back that far.

I've been looking at the Robertians a bit, and Adelaide is supposed to be the father of the children of Robert the Strong - most sources say so. Except she would have been like 60 years old or older when his children (Eudes and Robert King of France) were born.

So who was the mother of Robert I of France? Seems like this is something that would have been recorded.

It's maybe more than just academic, Robert the Strong was the first Count of Anjou - the next one was Ingelger, who follows in history and looks like the namesake of Inger, Melissena's Varangian husband (known only as "the Scandinavian", again, nothing is known - or was ever revealed, about his parentage). Then you have the Fulks Counts of Anjou - Fulk V was also King of Jerusalem - and check out the Italian Fulk crest - it is almost identical to the Cohen crest.

http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fc/Orig...amily-crest.htm

Not far from there were the lands of Lusignan, even bigger crusaders, and their crest is blue and white bars, like those of Luxembourgh. Lus/Lux names evoking Laz/Laus, Lusignan being tied to the Melusine myth, it all seems to mean something. I'm starting to warm to the idea that Rangabe and Angevin are in fact related somehow, as well as the idea that the Fulk name derives from Byzantium - i.e. the Phokas family, who were Armenian. (Note the snake around the scabbard of Nikephoros II below - and his nickname, "White Death".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicephorus_II_Phocas
Sanders
Hey, I mentioned that I had put the brakes on any publishing until I understood that final long page that John of Ladon Gog has up on his site.

I'm just about through it. To give you an idea how dense it is, I spent most of today working through parts of the last chapter. I'd say I was able to cross-check and understand about 2 or 3 paragraphs. A whole day, just on 2 or 3 paragraphs.

Not that I'm that stupid, but John works from a plateau that is way above most of our heads, so you are constantly trying to catch up, and have to learn much about archaic history from scratch in order to even start to comprehend what he is getting at.

The file is here for any brainiacs out there who would like to take a crack at it:
http://www.tribwatch.com/SingleFile.htm

Anyway, I've just about worked through it all. It's pretty amazing, his picture makes perfect sense despite that much of it involves the filling of many holes where the historical record is silent or steeped in mystery. I hope to summarize in layman's terms (with genealogy charts to help) in short order.

To sum it up in a word, Belgium. It's no accident that Belgium is the home of the EU, or that the international court is in the Hague in the Netherlands.
wink.gif
KrNel
Interesting about Nicephorus_II_Phocas, snake, "light" (phorus), but according to Wiki he doesn't have children (other sources say possible children)....

.................................

EDIT:

KrNel, I accidentally obliterated the rest of your post ! I thought I was responding to it, but unintentionally I was editing it - SO SORRY!!! Anyway, there's my post below.

Sorry about that,

- Sanders
Sanders
[Disclaimer:

I wrote the posts in this thread (those under my name) as I embarked on a path of research, motivated purely by an intense curiosity, and I marked my discoveries along the way here in this thread. I was fascinated by the use of occult symbology in our media (and other clues), and the more I investigated the more I saw that the history, in fact "world-view" that we have all been told to accept is mostly balony. (I stand by that 100%.) However I concluded too fast that there was a linear connection between the self-annointed managers of our country (and, to a large and increasing degree, our planet) and an ancient "dragon" culture. And I have (somewhat mistakenly) described this culture as of a "conquering" nature in many of my posts. While I learned a great deal on my search for answers, and while the reader might find some of my posts interesting, I have discovered that my overriding view of the big picture was wrong.

The true dragons were a wise and just sub-race of Kings and Queens of antiquity, and they have been all but gone for a thousand years - exterminated by the Church and her clients, the long string of usurpers who traded loyalty to Rome in return for its (fraudulent) recognition of kinghood. The Templars were not dragons (I don't think), they were rather a military arm of the dragons, from whom they split and pursued their own interests. William the Conqueror may have had some dragon blood in him, but he was first a warrior and his loyalties lied with his own power-grab - he killed many true "dragons" (the elven Picts) during his brutal subjugation of the north of England - and, the descendents of his warrior co-usurpers from Normandy, "bully-boys" as they have been described, who comprised the moneyed-elite of America throughout much of its history, were no better despite their claims of blue-bloodedness. Far worse are the bankers, often the descendents of those Norman colonists, who have taken their place. None of these people who have caused so much anquish in pursuit of their own monetary gain throughout modern history are "true" dragons, though I suspect they cling to imagined thread-thin connections to those ancient families, while they have hijacked the symbology and 'religion' (for lack of a better word) of the ancient cults in pursuit of their own bloated vision of themselves as overlords of us "stupid sheep".

If you want to know about the true "dragon blood-line", don't bother with my drivel, read instead "The Dragon Legacy" or any other of the works of Nicholas de Vere.]



QUOTE
Interesting about Nicephorus_II_Phocas, snake, "light" (phorus), but according to Wiki he doesn't have children (other sources say possible children)....


True, but Phokas is a monicker for an extended family which supported and/or nipped at the heels of the eastern Emperors for a number of centuries. Here's an earlier one which occupied the throne, Flavius Phokas -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocas

Then there was Nicephorus "the elder", Nicephorus "the younger", Sophia, Bardus, Anna ... all Phokas Byzantines, though not Emperors or Empresses.

Some sources call Phokas' an Armenian line, though the above Wiki page states that Flavius Phocas had roots in Thrace. (Who knows - probably both?) The word probably comes from Phocis, from this part of Greece:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocis_(ancient_region)

The branch which Michael II and Michael III "the drunkard" hailed from are known as the "Amorians", or the "Phrygians". This alone is very intriquing, for it suggests that this branch were originally Amorites, ostensibly removed from Canaan to Phrygia, the Anatolian center of Cybele worship. Michael III was the Rangabe who kept Melissena and Inger's daughter Eudoxia for a mistress and sired Gregoria von Byzanz and Leo VI`the Wise'. From Leo VI's progeny you get Anna Porphyrogenita (wife of Vladimir I) and from Gregoria's line you get Theophano who married Otto II of Saxony. This is worth linking, for you can see that Theophano's parentage is a meeting of Byzantine Amorian (Phrygian) and Phokas lines, and that her children are all royal Saxons - including Matilda WETTIN (!!!). ... By John's logic this is not where the Wettin house begins (he marks it by Ludolf "the Great"'s marriage to Oda Billung a few generations earlier), but Matilda's birth/death dates coincide with the accepted birth of the House of Wettin and I think this is the first person to go under that moniker.
http://fabpedigree.com/s035/f140136.htm

Also, accepted spellings of certain names are conspicuous - first, Vladimir. As John points out, the "im" in Vlad-im-ir is a Hebrew plural suffix. Interesting when you look at the Vlad coat or note the Hebrew names (David, Solomon) that pop up among his grandchildren. Second, why is Eudoxia's daughter called Gregoria "VON" Byzanz? Obviously, by marrying Inger, Melessina stuck her Khazar foot in Germania ... which had escaped me, because Inger is called "the Scandinavian". I always assumed it was a linking of Byzantine and Viking lines, which in a sense, the marriage was ... but this long web-page I talked about that I'm trying to decipher plants Melissena's bloodline in BELGIUM, specifically Hesbaye, to which Danes had been connected since Rurik (Vladimir's great-grandfather) at least. There's some speculating by John (not unfounded) that Rurik was possibly a son of Ingerman and a brother or uncle of Inger. Remember, Rurik was an early chieftain of the "Varangian Rus" - and Inger was a Varangian also.

So what you have, essentially, is Danish princes (Harald and Rurik) born to Ingerman becoming tied to Hesbaye in modern Belgium, Rurik's descendents and followers are heretofore known as the "Varangian Rus" (to confuse us all), one of which is Inger (a brother or nephew?) who marries Melissena, and their descendants turn up at the root of these Germanic houses like Hohen, Wettin and Babenberg - all represented, allegedly and intriguingly, by the characters of the Flintstones cartoon.

This is all courtesy of John, author of Ladon Gog, I'm just trying to translate into easier-to-grasp language.

There's another possiblity, that Inger was a son of Pepin King of Italy and Aeda (?), a little different but which also fits well into the larger picture, for this would make Inger a brother of Oda Billung.

The details are complicated, the conclusions to be drawn are dependent on genealogies that are disputed, and I'm trying to sort it out ... but I think John is barking up the right tree. Look at the name Billung, of whom Oda is the first. Looks like Nebilung (Nibelung), as in "Der Ring des Nibelungen" (the Norse saga on which Wagner's "Ring Cycle" is based), the Nibelungs are royal Burgundians based at Worms that figure into the adventures of Viking dragon-slayer Siegfried. The story roughly parallels the picture John paints, Worms is quite close to Hesbaye, and the historical father of Rurik was in fact 'Gorm' (looks like Worm).

Also you have the names Verenger and Berengar popping up amongst this cluster of inter-related people ... the son of Henry, maybe the first Babenberg, was possibly Berengar, father of Poppa who Rollo the Viking took for a wife. Berengar looks a lot like "Varangian".

I hope I got all that right more or less. Obviously the suggestion that "Fulk" (i.e. Fulks of Anjou) connects to Byzantine Phokas seems like a stretch, but in the context of all this other stuff, it "fits".

Anyway this is all just a prelude, I haven't really figured it all out yet. (More to come when I do.)
dMz
QUOTE (KrNel @ Jun 14 2010, 12:31 PM) *
Interesting about Nicephorus_II_Phocas, snake, "light" (phorus), but according to Wiki he doesn't have children (other sources say possible children)....

.................................

EDIT:

KrNel, I accidentally obliterated the rest of your post ! I thought I was responding to it, but unintentionally I was editing it - SO SORRY!!! Anyway, there's my post below.

Sorry about that,

- Sanders

Yeah- about that whole 4 "click-sensitive" button thing-- down on the lower right screen- Yup!- made that mistake myself before... [embarrassed]

Now getting back to those dragons Mr. Sanders-- what about the design of those ships... and the colo(u)r/species of the snail that colored the stripes on those sails?
KrNel
LOL, well the post was pretty much for this family tree trying to figure out how they connect to each other, much easier for me and newcomers to figure out this one aspect of this whole thing.

http://infogenome.org/media/d/Vlad%20of%20Kiev.pdf

Just so you get an idea... preview:


QUOTE
By John's logic this is not where the Wettin house begins (he marks it by Ludolf "the Great"'s marriage to Oda Billung a few generations earlier), but Matilda's birth/death dates coincide with the accepted birth of the House of Wettin and I think this is the first person to go under that moniker.

Richilde (Rechilde) WETTIN (Princess) of GERMANY von SCHWABEN Saxony, daughter to Otto I `the Great' (King) of GERMANY, 912-973.
So she had to be born before alleged 973 death, which is before Matilda's alleged birth of 981.
She marries the OHNINGEN that gives us Ragneda with Vlad of Kiev, who begets Doronega and maybe Prbemieslawa (if not, then its VLad with Anna PORPHYROGENITA), and most likely Yaroslav I if Ragneda == Rogneida POLOTZK.

Check out the PDF above, the visual speaks easily for her Importance as well. Matilda could still be the start of the House. Just giving alternates.

There is also Wittekind (III) von WETTIN from 9th C, earliest on fabpedigree. Son of Wittekind `the Great' (last King) of the SAXONS

I'll read the rest tomorrow. And post some stuff on bow names.

Peace.
Sanders
Hey, that genealogy chart is awesome! Did you make that, KrNel??? Very slick

QUOTE (KrNel @ Jun 19 2010, 01:59 AM) *
Richilde (Rechilde) WETTIN ... 912-973.


Right you are yes1.gif

Before Matilda.

BTW, "John's logic", whereby the house starts with the union of Oda Billung and Ludolf "the Great" of Saxony (as I interpret it) follows from Ludolf being a great grandson of Wittekind, in other words, is based on the assumption that "Wettin" comes from Wittekind. However, if you look up Wittekind the Saxon, Wettin is never mentioned. Jamie Allen apparently just attached "Wettin" to Wittekind because she believes this is where the house originates. (You have to be careful and take the info at JDA with a grain of salt sometimes.) It's academic really. biggrin.gif

Again, nice chart. (Sorry I erased the link the first time doh1.gif .) ... I wish more of online genealogies were as easy to read.
Sanders
QUOTE (dMole @ Jun 19 2010, 02:43 AM) *
Yeah- about that whole 4 "click-sensitive" button thing-- down on the lower right screen- Yup!- made that mistake myself before... [embarrassed]

Now getting back to those dragons Mr. Sanders-- what about the design of those ships... and the colo(u)r/species of the snail that colored the stripes on those sails?


Hey, dMole. salute.gif

Yeah, I've done it a few times, thought I was replying to someone's post when in fact I was editing (and in the process forever erasing) it. Truly embarrassing. Luckily I've never done it to a long and deeply researched post (yet).

Ahh, yes, the scale insect of the Kermes oak. Blast from the past.

When I first read about that I was sure it was elaborate myth-writing. But it turns out there IS a Kermes oak, a "scale" insect does live on it and is named for it's "scale"-like shape, the female insects have a waxy coatiing (this is the "scale") to protect their eggs, and it is from this female that the Phoenicians got their (Cadmium) red dye.

STILL, I am convinced there is some significance to these references - maybe the Phoenicians noted the scale shape of the insect and the fact that it was the females that gave them the red color they liked, the "dragon" and "female" elements prodded them to name the oak that the insect lived on after the homeland of the great goddess (Innana) of their ancestors, Kerman. Maybe all that prodded them to paint the sails of their ships in this color. Or, they named the oak after Mt. Hermon (which in turn was assumedly named for Kerman), and since this red dye came from an insect that lived on it they maybe thought it might please the gods if they painted their sails with it? ... I don't know - but I suspect there's something going on there.

All this talk about Germanic royal families might seem totally removed from the Phoenicians and their red dye, but really its not. I'm working on something which I will post here, hopefully in the next week. Many of these families can be traced - maybe not linearly on a genealogy chart, but fairly suredly by other means - back to Anatolia and even the Levant. One of the Byzantine emperors who figures into the story, Michael III, was called "the Phrygian" or, more commonly, "the Amorian". What could "the Amorian" mean, other than these people were descended from Amorites removed to Phrygia, and how more significant could that be? What this alludes to, is that Amorites were chased out of Israel/Canaan and migrated to Phrygia, a hot-bed of Cybele-cult (Great-Mother) worship, and that these Byzantine emperors (Michael II, Theophilus, Michael III) were of that stock.

(I have tried in vain to find a different definition of "Amorian" - if anyone knows of one, please chime in.)
KrNel
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jun 15 2010, 10:10 AM) *
One of the Byzantine emperors who figures into the story, Michael III, was called "the Phrygian" or, more commonly, "the Amorian". What could "the Amorian" mean, other than these people were descended from Amorites removed to Phrygia, and how more significant could that be? What this alludes to, is that Amorites were chased out of Israel/Canaan and migrated to Phrygia, a hot-bed of Cybele-cult (Great-Mother) worship, and that these Byzantine emperors (Michael II, Theophilus, Michael III) were of that stock.

(I have tried in vain to find a different definition of "Amorian" - if anyone knows of one, please chime in.)

WOW! Can't wait!


Was gonna do some Rangabe tracing, and good thing, didn't notice Anna's other daughter that marries a Brusse and produces Brus! Woot!


-------------- ---------------- ----------------

Rohan (seat and title from Battle of Hastings, 1066)
http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=Rohan

Apparently, Wettin == Meissen ? Or am I not getting it? No Wettin at house, but there is Meissen:
http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=Meissen

Trimberg is same as Meissen with symbol change (from cloves to roses):
http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=Trimberg

Zeitler "beekeeping in the woods" is a bear with fleur-de-lis:
http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=Zeitler





Bogen Boggen Boger Bogere Bogel Bogle Boagen Boaggen Boager Boagere Boagel Boagle Boghen Boaghen Boegen Boeggen Boeger Boegere Boegel Boegele Beogle Bugen BUggen Buger Bugere Bugel Bugele Bugle Buegen Bueger Buegere Buegel Buegele Buegle Bogin Bogan Boggin



Bogen
Bow + Bower
German

Boggen Bogan (before Normans)
Dragon Bird (Phoenix?)
occupational name for 'maker of bows' Old English 'boga', 'buga' ==> 'bend'
English

Boger Bogie Boggie Bolgie Bolgy Bogy
Scottish (lands of Bogie in parish of Abboshall, Fifeshire)
earliest record in Bolgyne

Bogel Bogle Bogill, etc
Scottish

Bogner, Bogener
from German word 'bogaere' ==> 'bow'

KrNel
Bower and Bauer

*Notice blue/white mix in the second pic*



Bauer, Baur, Bauerr, Bauerre, Bower, Boerema, Bohr, Burr

Notice Bauer old artwork: Arms of Bauer Of Frankfurt am Main, Germany, has hexagram instead of pentagram.
Also, two are the same shield, but one is RED and one is GREEN....

Boerema, Dutch (For our God, our King, and Country)
3 Gren Cloves, (Meissen (Wetin?) 3 Red Cloves

Sanders
Wow.

thumbsup.gif


Bow, Boar, Bear, all relates to (or I should say, are represented in, Apollo/Artemis myths in Greek mythology), which was just a way of recording what was going on (to the few that were clued in to the code).

Excuse me for using the almost meaningless term "Illuminati" (for all of the less-than-informed internet discussion about the elite whereby they TM are described as such) .... but, whenever you see a Bear or a Boar on a crest, this is a family which is deeply rooted.

Vere - blue boar.

Bush - three boars.

Albert "the Bear".

Look at the heavens - the Bears (Ursa major and minor) guard the dragon.

The Golden Compass ... the arctic Bears.
................

You mention Red and Green - did you know that the Rothschilds at one point changed their shield from Red to Green?

Also, the Picts (from which a few of our elite Cap n Trade supporting elite descend) trace back to Calydon (Greece) and are immortalized in the myth of the Calydonian Boar Hunt.

They (Picts) are usually equated with the color green. Also, Green is one of the Morgan colors, and of course there are lots of green dragons and griffins floating around on family crests.

(And much of this is speculative - so don't quote me?)

But these various colour schemes do seem to have significance.
KrNel
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jun 15 2010, 01:19 PM) *
Bow, Boar, Bear, all relates to (or I should say, are represented in, Apollo/Artemis myths in Greek mythology), which was just a way of recording what was going on (to the few that were clued in to the code).

YUP!
http://www.heraldry.ws/
Check B section, lots of Bear symbol coats/crests with similar names to Bow/Bauer. And there are Boar symbols too that resemble Bear named crests/coats.


QUOTE (Sanders @ Jun 15 2010, 01:19 PM) *
You mention Red and Green - did you know that the Rothschilds at one point changed their shield from Red to Green?

Hmm, I know the RED of which you speak:


Whats the GREEN one?


QUOTE (Sanders @ Jun 15 2010, 01:19 PM) *
But these various colour schemes do seem to have significance.

I hope so... hehehehe... but I don't think it's too reliable from one family to another if there are not other ties like genealogical or similar surnames. Need to use the 3.

Similarly with the pedigree, tracing back these lineages is possible in some cases, but we cannot be sure of the validity of such connections. But it does help when there are, they to allow us to identify who is connected to who via alleged genealogical blood ties. And we can also look at the symbols each respective clan used and how they are transferred from one group to another. There is also the phonetic continuance: name alteration or language change.

Hopefully there is an end to this research that is fruitful smile.gif

This site has a former Bower crest from hosueofnames. Of note is the use of bundled arrows. They don't need to be splayed in an array like the Rothschild have it. The symbol means the same as arrows in a sheath(?).




----------------------------------------------------------

More Bower Bauer relation stuff:



1. Bower Crest === Bauer Crest
2. Bower Crest, and Bower Coat of Arms

the Leg and Arrow must represent some historical significance.

3. Bowes, as Bow/Arrow and dressing Bow
both with Cloves in background


TTYL
Sanders
QUOTE (KrNel @ Jun 19 2010, 01:43 PM) *
Whats the GREEN one?


That house in Frankfurt, the photo of which everyone has seen? That's the house of the Green Shield.

I don't know what the Green Shield looked like, or if the Rothschilds ever actually used one.

http://www.rothschildarchive.org/ib/?doc=/...a_faq_redshield
http://www.tribwatch.com/coatarms.htm
http://www.answers.com/topic/mayer-rothschild
KrNel
I made the family tree charts based on fabpedigree because it was too hard to visualize the connections upon initially investigating the Bogen family. I decided to revisit this family after constructing this below.



This from various Bogen tracking attempts via Frederick II of Diessen (Regensburg) on 3 sites:


http://infogenome.org/media/d/Vlad of Kiev.pdf
page two has the a partial 3-site comparison of Fred II genealogical area.

----------------------------------

I started on pedigree from the matching Bogin information I correlated on various sites (Diessen on pedigree), and went (left visually) towards Vlad, then William the Conqueror, and Charlemagne. The Charlemange branch can be shifted over right more, it doesn't connect to the left part except for one place that is color coded brown/orange (even though it looks like it connects the whole way).

Btw, I only revisited by original 'Bogen problem' with existing sources after making the above 2 page work LOL.

Count Bogen Origins: Frederick I or II, son of Frederick I or II.

QUOTE
The Domvogt is the administrator of the goods of each cathedral chapter and as such he has an unrestricted access to the property of the respective diocese .
In the past, the sons of noble families were often used as Domvogte because you uttered them great confidence.


Count Friedrich II of Diessen (Domvogt of Regensburg * genealogie-mittelalter.de) (1035-1075) fathers Frederick I of Bogen (euweb.cz) (aka Friedrich II of Diessen *pedigree, aka Count Frederick II of Diessen. Domvogtes of Regensburg *genealogie-mittelalter.de).
Pedigree differentiates the father from the son via the title (Count) on the father.
genealogie-mittelalter.de has father and son as both Counts of Diessen, while the father is a Domvogt and the son a Domvogtes of Regensburg.
worldroots.com has the father as Count Friedrich II of Diessen, of Wasserburg. So Regensburg = Wasserburg.

The first Count of Bogen, Frederick I (Frederick II of Diessen, Domvogtes of Regensburg), has a date of 1075-1096(or 1100), but on to be found on genealogie-mittelalter.de. This is site also the only one to say his father was Domvogts Frederick I of Regensburg, and attributing W. Wegener (who is sourced throughout) with the Fred II as the father via his 2nd marriage to Irmgard of Gilching (of Count Arnulf), which is obviously where pedigree has chosen to link to as the mother.

genopro.com and worldreoots.com, don't even know who the mother it, its the NN daughter of (Domvogts) Hartwig (Hartwich) (I) of Regensburg, known on pedigree as Tuta of Regensburg. On pedigree however, this person is identified as the father Frederick II's wife (of the same Hartwig I of Regensburg).

genealogie-mittelalter.de and pedigree seem to have similar info, attributing (possibly incorrectly) Ermengarde / Irmgard / Irmingard von GILCHING as Count Fred I of Bogen's mother.

worldroots has the alleged first Count Bogen (Fred II son of Fred II) fathering Tuta of Regensburg, which other sites have as the possible unknown wife of his father Fred II (or Fred I).

Tuta, the wife of the father, or daughter, to Frederick II Count of Diessen, Domvogt of Regensburg, aka Frederick I Count of Bogen.



The claim of Frederick I Count of Bogen (son of Fred II of Diessen) comes from euweb.cz. genpro.com does not have the son of Friedrich II of Diessen (neither is a Count here) as a Bogen, and both genealogie-mittelalter.de and pedigree are again in agreement that he is not a Bogen either.

genopro.com however, has the Bogen resulting from the Liutgard of Diessen (daughter of Fred II / Fred I Bogen above) marriage to Adalbert I of Babenberg (d. 1145) (aka Adalbert I of Windberg (d. after 1145) *euweb.cz)

But, looking at my early research before the family tree work, I had found an early Bogen at the german site genealogie-mittelalter.de: Adalbert IV, Count of Bogen-Windberg (1167-1197). When he died, his wife Ludmilla of Bohemia, Duchess of Bogen-Windberg married Ludwig I Wittelsbach, Duke of Bohemia. The first time is to Albert III (or IV) Count of Bogen. Albert III/IV traces back to Adalbert I (or II) the Count of distinctive character of the Bogen and Windberg (1075-1100). Adalbert's wife is Liutgard of Diessen (Heiress of Windberg area), daughter to Fred II father of Fred II. This Adalbert Bogen-Windberg dead after 1100 is the same as the Adalbert of Babenberg/Windberg above. This Adalbert Bogen-Windberg at least confirms genopro.com's link to first Bogen mention resulting from Adalbert, although a Babenberg.

So what do we have?
Babenberg = Windberg
Regensburg = Wasserburg
On two accounts, a Diessen (of Regensburg) marries a Baben/Wind-berg (of Bogen) and produces the start of Bogen royalty by surname (von Bogen). The other account is euweb.cz of Fred II son of Fred II being a Count of Bogen, while Adalbert is a Winberg (bot Bogen by title), and his son Adalbert II becomes of Windberg and Bogen.
Also, on genopro.com, Friedrich II Diessen (Fred II's father) comes from Dietrich I Wittelsbach marrying de Lorraine. The other sites the marriage was to Hemma / Emma of Ohningen.
euweb.cz has his father as Fred I of Diessen. pedigree has his father as Frederick I von WASSENBURG. The german genealogie-mittelalter.de has Count Frederick I of Andechs. webroots has Count von Wasserburg Dietrich I.
Dietrich = Friedrich
Wittelsbach = Wasserburg = Regensburg

Wittelsbach + Lorraine = Diessen (Fred II genopro.com)

Diessen + Babenberg = Bogen (euweb.cz, genopro.com, genealogie-mittelalter.de)
Both from Adalbert and Luitgard, and/or Frederick II and Adelaide of Hungary, of Weimar (daughter of Sophia Arpad Princess of Hungary? *pedigree) In the case of genopro, Luitgard comes from Fred II, so doesn't really matter there.

In conclusion, it appears genealogy is bullshit, as all the sites differ in parentage or names in some way that makes tracking not so easy, and not so fun, and dubiously reliable. Unless this search on various sources of a family name that I just happened to pick -- Bogen -- turning into this much bullshit was a coincidence that does not occur frequently.

Seems to me it would take a life time to sort out the various alleged genealogical links on various sites that are bullshit and hope to possibly (probably not) make a clear picture. And the visuals sure as HELL helps a lot IMO to understand the various connections, quickly in a visual sweep as I am (was?) doing (i.e. major visual branches, Charlemagne, Vlad, etc, eventually color coded). This little bit of research makes me think about Fomenko's claims that the history of middle ages has so many duplicates and different accounts that we all accept it to just be so. Most of the dates are based on records of alleged rule, unless they were important, i.e. Charlemagne, William the Conqueror, etc who have birth dates to the day with them. The dates represent first record of their mention if no birth known i.e. date of rule in most cases unless stated otherwise. We believe what we believe.

I think there is a possibility that when they wanted to have one family name represented in ancestry, a certain region or certain name was retained over another in favor of preserving a particular tie to the past in order to validate the rule at the time.

Peace.

EDIT:
I'd be surprised to know many people understand the above (unless you go check yourself to verify smile.gif ). Following it with the page 2 of the PDF will make it easier.
Sanders
Great post KrNel, I enjoyed where you note that "genealogy is bullsh#t", i.e. many genealogy records differ on important points and there's no way to get to the bottom of it. I feel your pain, and I know how many hours go into trying to make sense of a particular branch of people - and wonder sometimes myself how significant any of this is. But I do think connecting the Rothschild family to the Bogens is pretty significant, and a topic which almost no one on the planet has looked into.

I traced the Warburg family name to Oda Billung (author of the Babenberg House, daughter of the Nebilung, and in addition significant in another way which you will see) - but the official word is that the Warburg banking family wasn't really connected to those (royal) Warbergs, but that they were from that area and adopted the name simply because there were from that area.

But I don't buy it. I've been doing this too long. They don't want us to know what's really going on here. I mean, how could it be just a coincidence that the Billungs connect to the Warberg name and the Warburgs became the 2nd most influential bankers of the world?

I'd be really surprised that that's an accident, and I have read too many (Scholarly) excuses designed to "debunk" any attempt at unraveling the connections between the elite.

biggrin.gif
Sanders
I haven't finished this attempt to transcribe into layman's terms 'John' author of 'Ladon Gog''s (most recent) web-page which has occupied my interest for a while, but I'm far enough along that I feel confident enough to post what I have written so far. Unfortunately I can't include genealogy charts or maps yet to make it easier to follow, but I will make them and edit my post and include them (as well as continuing the story) as I can.
Sanders
First, I'm not going to try and back up every allegation that might seem contrary to the accepted wisdom - I'll provide some explanation, but not to the extent that it makes the following so dense and complicated that it's undigestible. John's original work has all the details:

http://www.tribwatch.com/SingleFile.htm

The basic idea starts with Charlemagne, the great Frankish king of the 8th century, who fought and to some extent subdued the Avars, a nomadic Turkic group associated with the Magyars, Huns, Kabars, Bulgars etc. In the Hungarian myth of the White Stag, the twins Magor and Hunor follow a deer they are hunting from Mesopotamia to Scythia, where they mate with (or rape) Avar princesses. From the unions spring the Magyar and Hun ancestor tribes of the Hungarians. Since historically it was the Kabars that accompanied Magyar tribes to Hungary, this myth lends some credence to a less-than-mainstream theory that the Kabars grew out of the Avars. Also somewhat important to how all this is going to hold together, is the notion that the name of a very important elite family, Vere, is probably a contraction of Avar.

The Avars were elite among these nomadic tribes, highly respected and talented warriors. Tolkien was probably writing about them (in code), as one branch of his elves in his 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy are the Avari, while the capital fortress of the Avars was built in a RING configuration.

Little is known about them, but it was written down that the Avar Kagan at the time of Charlemagne's death was Abraham, and his successor was Isaac. (Very Hebrew.) Another thing to be aware of, is that an Avarian cross looks just like the coat of arms of both Rangabe and Bouillon, with fleur-de-lis tips. Geoffrey Bouillon was the leader of the first crusades, and note that his family were dominant in northern parts of the Frankish kingdom (Boulogne, Lower Lorraine) in and around what is now Belgium. At the time it was called Flanders, and that will become significant a little later. Michael I Rangabe on the other hand was a Byzantine Emperor whose granddaughter Melissena, who I have talked about quite a bit and who the mythical mermaid of the Starbuck's coffee logo, Melusine, is very likely in homage of. In short, the Bouillon and Rangabe coats of arms suggest Avar roots.



Forget about Rangabe for a minute, how did Avars have any role in forming the Bouillon family? They were in Pannonia (Hungary).

Here's a map I just made that might help follow alot of this.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7400/europe.gif

At the end of the 8th century Charlemagne, who had been fighting the Avars, became busy with other things and his son Pippin, who was the King of Italy, along with Duke Eric of Fuili who he was allied with, continued the assault on the Avars. Not only were Pippin and Eric allies, Eric of Friuli was Pippin's uncle, for Charlemagne had married Eric's sister, Hildegard of Vinzgouw (Swabia).

A Tudun (governor) of the western Avars (who is not known by name) had allied himself with Eric and Pippin and, apparently, with some help from these western Avars Pippin and Eric led a successful assault on the larger Avar nation, taking their "great ring" or capital fortress. Many Tuduns were taken back to Aachen (from where Charlemagne ruled), converted, and submitted to the Frank King's authority. (The Avar Kagan was baptized and sent back to Pannonia to keep his Avars in line.)

So now you have Avars, some Tuduns and assumedly others from the western faction which had allied with Pippin, living in and around Aachen, which is in modern Germany just over the border from the Netherlands. At this very same time (circa 796) there was a Count of nearby Hesbaye, which is now Begium, named Ingerman. John contends that this Ingerman had a lot to do with the founding of the 'Varangian Rus'.

One notable Varangian was Vladimir I Grand Prince of Kiev, who was descended from Rurik. Rurik controlled a local in northern Netherlands called Wieringen (which looks like Veringen, an area of Swabia from which a number of Counts of interest hailed from). Wieringen had some sort of connection to Fulda, a town in Hesse, as documented in a transfer of a large amount of property from Wieringen to a monestary in Fulda. Furthermore, (from John):

QUOTE
At the time that I was considering a trace of "Waldrada/Waldruth" to "Fulda" (or vice versa), I looked at the Fulda river (to the north of Fulda) and saw the city of Rotenburg. I wondered if Ingerman had named his daughter, Redbugra, after this town. Believing that Ingerman was a proto-Varangian, I stared at the possibility that Varangians originated in the Redburga environs, for I had discovered Rotenburg only as a result of finding Fulda elements moving to Wieringen (Netherlands), not to mention that Ingerman's immediate ancestry was from Worms, near Fulda. Then, while investigating Rotenburg, I found this: "Heringen is a town to the Hersfeld-Rotenburg district, in the north-eastern part of Hesse, Germany. It is located on the river Werra."


This "Waldrada" that John is interested in had a daughter (Waldrat) who married Robert "the Strong", the first Count of Anjou and patriarch of the "Robertians". There's good evidence that Robert's father was Theotbert, who in turn may well have been a close descendent of Makhir, Count of Narbonne. Makhir had married Auda, daughter of Charles Martel, and ruled over the Jewish or Cathar kingdom of Septimania (Languedoc). Charles Martel's brother was Childebrand, who's son was Nebilung I, and it was from the Nebilungs that Waldrada was descended.

Any fan of Wagner knows the name Nebilung, they are the Burgundians of his "Ring Cycle".

The other Varangian we're interested in was Inger, the husband of Melissena, whose parantage is a complete mystery and who John suspects was a son or grandson of Ingerman. And don't let it escape your notice that Veringer looks like Ver-Inger.

Before continuing, let me address a larger picture. John continues through his many chapters to hone in on the general idea that the cultural forces which combined in Medieval Europe to create the elite choking the world to this day trace to the Kabeiroi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabeiroi

They were centered in Phrygia and Paphlagonia and spread to the Caucasus and specific parts of Greece, notably Samothrace, Lemnos and Thebes. The Achaeans and Spartans of Peloponnese also figure into this narrative. The Spartans don't exactly root in the Phrygia/Paphlagonia lands of the Kabeiroi, but close by in ancient Subartu, and they are connected to the "dragon-cult" quite solidly by springing from the teeth of the Ares dragon which Cadmus, the founder of Thebes, had slain in myth.

These weren't the indigenous Greeks, they were migrants from Thrace and Anatolia (and/or Egypt?), and those of Lemnos, Samothrace and Thebes brought the cult of Kybele with them. The "Great Mother" Kybele's consort was Attis, which suggests an ancient alliance or connection between these originally pagan Canaanite peoples and the Hatti.

Up to this point, I had focused my attention on Viking and Frank elements which left the Black Sea in the later centuries of the Roman era going northwest into Germania, or Hunnic Turkic tribes which entered Europe via Scythia and Mongolia. I had never looked much at Greece, much less Italy. But it seems that Kabeiroi of Greece transplanted themselves in three areas of Italy.

The Calabria and Lucania regions and nearby (Spartan-founded) town of Tarantos which make up Italy's "foot", the Lazios and Abruzzo regions half way up the "boot", and the Veneto and Friuli regions in the far northeast of Italy. Veneto and Friuli (from where Pippin's ally and uncle Eric of Friuli ruled) were founded by the Veneti/Heneti, who trace back to Paphlagonia. One is tempted to link names like Veneti, Venetian, Vanir (the proto-Viking tribe allied with the Aesir) with the morning star "Venus", and not without good cause: (from John:)

QUOTE
Odin's wife Frigg must be an eponym of Phrygia, as must be the case with the Scandinavian goddess Freya with her brother Frey. The latter two are the root of "Friday," wherefore behold that Friday is "Venerdi" in Italian, "Vendredi" in French, "Veneris" in Latin, and "Viernes" in Spanish, terms somewhat evoking the Veneti/Venedi but better-yet the "Vanir." It's to no surprise that the Freya is a version of the goddess Venus. yet the accurate alternative version for Freya is "Vanadis," a term almost precisely that of "Veneti/Venedi." And so the deduction is that the Veneti had something to do with Phrygia.
Not coincidentally, Freya is from the Vanir pantheon of Scandinavian gods, instead of the Aesir pantheon/bloodline. One can then conclude that (the Roman) Venus is the root of the Vanir pantheon, which in the very least tells us that the Vanir gods stemmed from the Veneti peoples...


And speaking of Venus, Lucania (named for Greek Laconia/Lacedaemonia where Sparta was located) is a distinctly "Luciferian" term, and midway down the Italian boot you have another region called Lazios. There are lots of "Laz" terms to look out for, and Laz was what the Byzantines called Colchis (modern Georgia) which was infested with the Kabeiroi (specifically the Corybyantes and the Halybes) and their Kybele cult. Other "Laz" terms include Leslie (clan descended from royal Hungarians in Scotland), Lusatia, Luxembourg, Lusignan, and a town in southern Italy called Laus. Laus is just below Blanda, which is similar to Phalantos, the name of the leader of the Spartans who settled nearby Tarantos (originally Taras) - evoking Taurus the bull for which the Taurus mountains of Anatolia (Turkey) are also named. John contends that Flanders was named for this Italian town of Blanda and Phalantos the Spartan. He contends that the Stewarts, who are descended from a Breton named Alan FitzFlaad, also originate here. There was in fact a Veneti people who lived in Brittany. That other royal house of Scotland, the Bruces (originally Brusse) appear to trace to the region east of Lazios half way up the boot, Abruzzo. In addition to all these alleged links, we have Charlemagne married to Hidegard, Eric of Friuli's sister.

Knowing what we do about the Hebrew characteristics of the Avars (Kagans named Abraham and Isaac, possible Avar-Kabar link), and knowing that Avars allied with Friuli transplanted to the heart of the Frankish kingdom at the end of the 8th century, John goes on to make the case that these Avars represented the Khazar side of Melissena (intriguing given the similarity of the Avarian cross and the cross of Rangabe), and that Makhir himself may have been an Avar.

There are a number of clues, which John uses to make his case for a genealogy which challenges conventional wisdom, but makes a lot of sense. For starters, certain names. Robert "the Strong" had a son, Eudes, also known as Odo, and Melissena and Inger named their daughter Eudoxia. John surmises that Eudes' mother was of Melissena's family tree, and indeed the identity of Robert "the Strong"'s wife is a mystery. Not just a mystery, it seems to have been intentionally covered up - his two children, Eudes and Robert (kings of France) are noted in most sources to have been the sons of Robert's wife Adelaide, who Robert married in 864. But if you do the math, Adelaide would have been over 60 when these two sons were born - highly dubious. Furthermore, John suggests that another son of Robert "the Strong" and his mysterious wife was Ingelger (not to be confused with Inger or Ingerman), for indeed the Counts of Anjou descend from this Ingelger (beginning with Fulk I Count of Anjou who was Ingelger's son), and Robert "the Strong" was also considered a Count of Anjou - so one would assume that Ingelger, being also a Count of Anjou, would follow from the blood of Robert. If this is true, and if Robert's wife was somehow of Melissena's line, then it fits that they would name a son Ingelger, who would have been born around the time that Melissena and Inger married.

There were other "Eudes" like names, Makhir married Auda, daughter of Charles Martel. Whether this "Auda" name comes from Charles' line or his wife's is uncertain, but there were an Odo (of Orleans) and a Dhu-oda on the side of Charles' brother, Childebrand (and his Nibelung offspring). Finally, we have Oda Billung, matriarch of the Wettin house (note Billung is maybe a contraction of Nibelung?).

John theorizes that Oda was the daughter or granddaughter of Pippin (the one who subdued the Avars), and that Oda's mother was one "Aeda", possibly Pippin's wife and the daughter of Auda and Makhir. He also suggests that Inger (Melissena's husband) could have been a son of this Aeda (and if she was Oda's mother that would make Inger Oda's brother!), and this looks plausible too for Inger's daughter was named Eudoxia.

(More to follow)
Sanders
OK, here's a quicky genealogy which (I think) represents a couple of 'John''s theories.

http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7488/eudoxia.gif

I didn't try to represent Robert "the Strong", but I will soon. His genealogy is complicated, and there are various theories. He is probably related to Ingerman (on the right). Among his sons was Eudes, (Robertian) King of France (the Robertians followed the Carolingian line of which Charlemagne is the most well known), and this Eudes is also known as "Odo", a version of this Oda/Otto/Eudoxia type of name.

Enough about that. What's got my brain spinning is the discovery (I stumbled onto it myself but then read that 'John' had noticed it as well) ... that the French town of Bourges was, well, to quote Wiki:

QUOTE
Its Celtic name was Avaricon and its Latin name was Avaricum.


!!!!!???

This is a town of Avars, obviously. Bourges is a little ways west of Autun.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7400/europe.gif

Makhir was, allegedly, one and the same (highly disputed) as Theodoric, the Count of Autun. However, Makhir was the Exhilarch of Narbonne, in other words, he was given lands by the Frank king (probably Charlemagne - an account records that a "Charles" sent to Baghdad for "seed of the Davidic line" of Israel, and Charles the Hammer was dead by the time Makhir came of age) in Languedoc, in which Narbonne is/was a town. Autun is pretty far from Languedoc, but Toulouse isn't, and Toulouse was a major Cathar center, and William of Gellone, who many suspect was a son of this Makhir, is recorded as having been both a Count of Autun, a Count of Toulouse, and Margrave of Septimania (Languedoc).

What if Makhir was an Avar???

I'm just feeding on clues from 'John' and speculating here, but what if Charlemagne sent to the Calif of Baghdad (which he did) for "seed" of the David-line and got an AVAR, Makhir?

Close to Autun is the town of Avord (where there is a beautiful church that was built in the 12th century), and a little farther west (very close) is Bourges, which I pointed out was known as Avaricum to the Romans. So, 'John' makes the radical suggestion that Autun derives from Aten, as per the Aten cult of Egypt (a solar-disc cult which is sometimes cited as the origin of Monotheistic religion and which Akhenaten Pharaoh of Egypt promoted and for which he was hated... Michael Tsarion believes that all the evil in the world stems from this Aten/Aton cult - I however view it as simply one part of the story, but that the Kabeiroi of the Greecian theatre is where our ruling elite really trace their cultural roots).

Anyway, I'm sort of a skeptical sort of guy, and I didn't buy it at first. But then it was shown to me (by John of course) that in between the towns of Autun and Bourges is the town of Nevers - which evokes Nefertiti, and I know all about the close association in antiquity between Scythians and the Egyptians. So, this little area looks like a hot-bed of the "dragon-cult" to me.

Also there closeby is the town of Baugy, the city crest of which is Blue/White/Gold-striped (shown on my map) and looks suspiciously like the crests of Luxembourg and Lusignan ("Laz" terms). John clues us in to the significance of the name Baugy, he believes it derives from Buxentium in southern Italy (right next to Blanda, which named Flanders and the Stewart patricarch Alan Fitz-Flaad), and Laus ... AND, it bore the Vaux family name as well, which is practically the Hohen crest!



These checks, for those who haven't followed my posts and movie, are a variant of the COHEN crest, a "Jewish" family name which is almost certainly a variant of Khagan (Khazar-Bulgar-Avar-Hun "King"), the checks of which are blue and white and which are found on the coat of Stewart and another family, Fer, which seems to be a variant of Vere.

Another coat displays these blue and white checks, the coat of FULK.



And Michael Rangabe, grandfather of Melissena, was of the Phocis line. Not to mention that "Rangabe" looks something like "Angevin".

And then you have the Rangabe coat looking a lot like the Avar cross - could Michael Rangabe have been an Avar !!???

Maybe, his genealogy is a mystery, he wasn't descended from other Emperors, he was a General. I have assumed that Melissena's Khazar blood came from Michael Rangabe's wife, Procopia (a whole article I wrote about that here ), ... but, it sure seems plausible that an Avar (Michael Rangabe) would marry a Khazar/Hun (Procopia).

So, speculation about the Jewish elite springing from Khazars may be slightly off the mark - there was apparenty a very influential AVAR presence in the heart of Frankish Europe (as evidenced by town names like Avaricon). This helps explain why Pippin had western Avars as allies - maybe they were connected to Avars already in the Frankish kingdom. And these Avars appear to have been just as Jewish/Hebrew as the Kabars (who may have been an offshoot of the Avars) and the Khazars who converted .... the record that there were Avar Khagans named Abraham and Isaac (at the time of the death of Charlemagne) certainly points to a Jewish/Hebrew Avar identity.

Zowie.
KrNel
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/2393/ge...dbogennotie.png
Page 1 has a few added
Page 2 is an exploration of genopro site. In red are intersting things. THe Anna of 60 year old birthing, the Vlad of Kiev minimum 50 year old age of his 2 or 3 ancestors fathering their son.
In summary, I could not find a link between the right part based on Vlad, and the left part based on Diessen (Bogens). Even though at fabpedigree, I was able to have a few ways to connect the two houses. This site is dubious, unreliable. Genopro.com should be avoided in research as far as I am concerned unless it helps to provide some insight. But overall, they don't make many connections. No children where there should be, no marriage where there should be, no ancestry where there should be... different names, different marriages... just a mess! (There is no Michael Rangabe... not that I could find...) Underfunded, overworked, lazy, incompetent, willfully omitting and obscuring?... who knows...

Genopro.com based map starting around Vlad of Kiev, Grand Prince:



Another interesting post Sanders, will have to reread carefully, I think Ill go for the Avar roots and connection next.

Peace.
KrNel
First link on previous post is supposed to be for this: http://infogenome.org/media/d/Vlad of Kiev.pdf
Sanders
Yeah, the JDA site can be unreliable too - I like it because it's easy to read and you can flip back in time many generations quickly to see where a certain person's roots really are (or possibly are). I use it more as a starting point.

BTW, the names on your chart are really tiny - biggrin.gif [EDIT: I see you fixed that! thumbsup.gif I'll probably comment after I spend some time going over it - this, which you are investigating (at least with regard to Vladimir and his extended family), is the heart of the Rose-line (regarding which the DaVinci code/Holy Blood-Holy Grail story trips and falters), more correctly described as the Rhodes-line, or the RUS-line!]

There's a loose end I left untied, I never attached any significance to the Oda/Otto/Odo/Eudes/Eudoxia names. I assume (and I seem to remember John mentioning this) that they are Aedui names. You can see on my map that the Aedui were the occupants of the area around Autun, who Theodoric (aka Rabbi Makhir) and William Gellone were counts of. The Aedui were Gallic (whatever that means). I'm certain John connects them to Aetes, the Greek mythical son of Helios who moved to and ruled Colchis - this is code of course, and there was a cult of Helios not unlike the cults of Kybele and Sabazios, so one can gather that the ancestors of the Aedui were in the thick of it right alongside (or were) Paphlahonians and/or Phrygians, which is exactly along the lines of what John suggests.

But the real reason I mentioned Oda, Eudes and Otto is the fact that Melissena and Inger named their daughter Eudoxia, which points to Inger being a member of this extended family.

When I say "extended family", I can't really even represent all the (alleged) ties in one chart. Here's an additional one, which shows the Nibelungs. (It's a little sloppy - I make these to try and keep track for myself mostly...):

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/7569/nibelung.gif

A few things of note here. The Nibelungs are immortalized in the Norse "Nibelungenlied", which was the basis of Wagner's "Der Ring des Nibelungen", commonly known as the Ring Cycle. The Nibelungs of the myths were centered in Worms.

In a different chart I posted above you can see on the right that the father of Harald "Bluetooth" Blaatand (king of Denmark - a descendent of Ingerman, Redburga, and Egbert of England) was a king "Gorm" ... probably a variant of Worm. Blaatand of course is another variant of Blanda/Flanders, and I don't think I've mentioned yet that another variant of this family of terms which apparently derive from Blanda (city in southern Italy) and Phalantos the Spartan (who founded Taras in Italy) is the name Walter. The first Stewart was a Walter (and as I mentioned the Stewarts certainly derive from this area of Italy because they descend from an Alan Fitz-Flaad). You'll see on my chart above a 'Waldrada' and a 'Waldrat', the second of whom may have married Robert "the Strong". Robert is important because he was the first Count of Anjou and two of his sons were kings of France of the 'Robertian' line. John goes through a litany of records that support the notion that Robert "the Strong's father was a certain 'Theotbert', who may well have been closely descended from Theodoric aka Makhir.

By the way, I'll just tell you that everytime the genealogy threatens to reveal that this "extended family" of French nobles is connected to the Varangian Rus, or Avar or Khazar Hebrews, the record goes blank. Inger's parents? A mystery. Michael Rangabe's ancestry? A mystery (despite the fact that he was a Byzantine Emperor!!!?). Melissena's mother? A mystery. The mother of Margaret Queen of Scotland, born in Hungary? Another mystery. Who was Makhir? Was William of Gellone really his son? Yet another mystery. And the record tries to tell us that Eudes and Robert, two kings of France, were born of Adelaide, despite the fact that she would have been in her 60's at the time. One has to hang on the thinnest of evidence and guesswork, and John is a persistent and smart guy and most of these ideas I'm bringing here and the work behind them are his - I'm just trying to summarize (and limit the scope of the post so as to be more easily absorbed). I highly recommend going to the source, difficult as it is.

One other thing in that genealogy above - I included the Courtenays, descended from the Nibelungs and Thierry I Count of Autun. Remember the "Nibelung Ring Cycle" (as well as the Avari of Tolkien's Trilogy)?, remember the Avars and their Ring Fortress? The Courteney family coat (as well as that of Courtauld) display what appear to be a representation of Avar rings. (Called Roundels in heraldry). John makes a tentative connection from this Courteney name to our word "Court" as well as the Curetes (Kaberioi) - but that aside these "roundels" point to an Avar connection (this is me talking, not John). I included the Flamme coat as well, for it's the same 3 roundels - and the Flemmish were the people of Flanders (modern Belgium, which this is all about). And what more famous Belgian (Flemmish) name is there than Nobel? Whose Nobel peace prize goes to murderous illuminatists as often as to peace promoters? The Dutch Nobel crest is a white rose on red (Rose-line!) while the Scottish branch is, can you believe it, the same roundels.

http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fc/qx/N...amily-crest.htm

Are you surprised that the Nobels helped William the Conqueror win at Hastings in 1066? doh1.gif (Readers who haven't watched Uroko won't quite get that.)

The inclusion of the roundels on crests isn't proof of anything really, it could mean Avar roots, it could mean roots in a Friuli or Frank family who participated in the taking of the "Avar Ring" and subjugation of the Avars, or it could be unrelated (I doubt it though) ... but since many or most of the Avars who wound up in France were probably allied with these Franks and Friulians it's sort of a moot point.

Lastly, you'll see that there are a couple of Bernards of Plantevelue, descended from the Nibelungs. In the context of all these Blanda/Flanders/Flaad/Waltrada connections, "Plant" is most certainly one more variation on the theme. This is where the "Plant" in "Plantagenet" comes from. (The Kings of England from the 12th to the 14th centuries were "Plantagenets", rooted in Anjou.) It isn't from any sort of "plant" that the kings stuck in their hats or hid behind while they were hunting. (LoL.) It's a term that you can trace from Sparta to Italy to Germania to Anjou. (Probably.)

Oh, and yeah, 'Drago de Hauteville' ... evokes all those 'Dagobert' Merovingians ... imagine an era when connection to the "dragon" was cool, it said you were a ruler by divine right. wink.gif

P.S., KrNel, you might enjoy reading my arguments that Agatha, mother of Margaret (Queen of Scotland), and Arlogia, wife of Rognvald Brusse (patriarch of the Bruce clan) were daughters of Anna Porphyrogenita by Vladimir. At the bottom of this page:
http://urokomovie.com/melissena.shtml
Sanders
I just re-read through my above posts. It's a little scattered, and maybe cryptic to some ... for that I apologize. It was hard enough wrapping my own head around it, putting it into typed words was not easy.

So let me summarize - there are a few figures who are of great importance to anyone trying to sort out the tribal roots of the elite, whose ancestry and/or descendency are shrouded in mystery - I point to that fact because, honestly, I suspect it's no accident. Everytime it is related to a personage suspected of infusing Hebrew (Davidic, Khazar, Kabar, Avar? - sometimes Byzantine, which by extension might mean the same thing) blood into the royal houses of Europe. For one, Rabbi Makhir aka Theodoric, who was brought to France (at that time the Frankish Kingdom) and from whose kingdom sprang the Cathar movement and whose blood allegedly flowed into the major Frank noble houses (i.e. Anjou, Lusignan, Aquitaine, Toulouse). It is a mystery if Makhir was really the Frank Count of Autun, Theodoric (and hence the father or William of Gellone) or not. Then, Melissena and Inger, whose marriage was apparently celebrated in the myth of Melusine, a half-human half-serpent beauty who is featured on the Starbuck's logo. She is also featured on several coats of arms, including that of the important house of Babenberg. The ancestry of Melissena's mother and grandfather are a mystery, but her grandmother (Prokopia) was descended from royal Huns and Khazars. The crest of her grandfather, Emperor Michael I Rangabe, is similar to an Avar cross that was discovered.

The genealogy of Melissena's husband, Inger, is also a complete mystery. I had always pegged him as a Viking, for he is often referred to as Inger "the Scandinavian", but it appears that thinking of him as belonging to an extended family of Nordic, Frank and possibly Avar origins (rooted as much in Belgium as in Scaneland (Sweden)) from which the Varangian Rus, of which he was a guard, sprang is more useful, and the reason this is waranted is that there were a number of "Inger"-named people in the extended family I've charted to some extent, to which it is logical that he might have been related.

The overall general picture that I have come away with is that Avar, Kabar and Magyar tribes (the Kabars I consider Avars and all three of which I consider Huns) were of a ... how can I put this ... Hebrew flavor. Some decided that they were Jewish, some converted to Christianity, and all were at one time pagan. But even the northern Israeli tribes who were allegedly been thrown out of the Holy Land (specifically the tribes of Ashur, Dan and Naphthali) who had the highest probability of winding up in Khazaria were decidedly pagans originally.

When you look closely at the bloodlines that combined to form the elite houses of medieval Europe (from Kiev to Edinborough) you find commonality and shared historical roots. Yes there was fighting and competition, but an awful lot of intermarrying, and a definite slant against the power of Rome and the (western) Catholic Church.

That's why I don't consider the royals of France in this group, at least not after the Robertians. The Merovingians on the other hand, who didn't get along with Rome very well at all, are definitely in the "group".

And I had gotten so confused and buried in all this that I felt incapable of tying it all together - which I wanted to try and do, not just for potential readers but for myself - so much so that I went back to 'John' of 'Ladon Gog' and started to re-read his chapters from the beginning. And what I discovered is that he spells out the big-picture quite clearly in his first writings on the subject. The hebrew tribes that managed to get control of the world were not Israelites, at least not substantially - John pegs them mostly to Asshur and Buz, descendents of Eber but not of Abraham. Buz was a son of Nahor, and the "Buz" peoples are recognizable for connections to bees and bee-like terms, such as Merovee (patriarch of the Merovingians). Buxentium (in Italy, near Blanda and Laus) and Boeotia (in Greece where Thebes is) are "bee terms", as are the 'Bia' peoples of Lake Van who John connects the Veneti to.

Here's some of what he writes:

Front page:
http://www.tribwatch.com/ladon.htm

QUOTE
This book assumes that mainline Greek, Roman, Babylonian, Egyptian, Celtic, Norse and Arthurian mythology is the real history, but written in code, of a pagan/occult Semite peoples responsible for the gross exploitation of mainkind and ultimately for Armageddon. In modern times, some of their numbers developed into secret societies: Rosicrucians, Templars, Zionists, and Illuminatii.


From this, his first chapter:
http://www.tribwatch.com/asshur.htm

QUOTE
...Sheba and Asshur are mentioned alongside Haran, Canneh, Eden, Chilmad, and Tarshish (still in Ezekiel 27), and this reveals the general location of the Abrahamic brothers. The location of Haran is in modern southeast Turkey a few tens of miles from the Euphrates river. Abraham's family lived in Haran for a time before migrating to Israel. Abraham's brother, Haran, was apparently named after that city, even though Haran lived and died in Ur. This is the first clue that Hebrews in Ur were connected to Hebrews in Haran, what may be extremely important in identifying the historical peoples that they were, perhaps even tied to the dragon bloodline.
The question then becomes, did God make the Abrahamic Asshurites into a great nation (i.e. since he promised Abraham to make his seed into many great nations)? When the Assyrians, over a thousand years after Abraham, were sent by God to take the 10 tribes of Israel away into exile, were the invaders in large part descended from the Abrahamic Asshurites? How deep into Assyria had the latter penetrated, if at all? I realize that I'm starting to sound like a proponent of British-Israelism here, and to my own surprise I find myself going down a similar trail no matter how I try to avoid their writings. I Asshur you, I am not attempting to promote their view, nor anyone else's, but am seeking the realities as I alone see them.
...It’s extremely important for British-Israelists to recognize that the non-Israelite Hebrews put forth the seeds of European peoples long before the Assyrian exile of Israelites. Moreover, the Hebrew-based Europeans were also of Aryan blood, and it is one of my tasks in this book to discover which Aryans they had mixed with in Mesopotamia.
...Assyrians virtually disappear from historical records for many centuries, and when they re-emerge as the Assyrian empire that brought Israel into exile, they may not have been Hamites any longer, at least not the majority. It is predictable that they would have mixed with Aryan elements in Caucusus and/or Mede regions, and moreover there seems to have been significant Semite blood on both the west and south sides of Assyria (i.e. so why not also in it?).
Is it possible that Scandinavians and other Germanic tribes -- because they claimed to be of the "Aesir" gods/bloodline -- descend from the Abrahamic Asshurites? Did a secret cult of Asshurites become so large and powerful as to contribute to much of Europe?
Was the mythical Asgard, depicted with a tree of life as per the Garden of Eden -- which Garden is moreover implied in the Scandinavian phrase, "Golden Apples of Idun" -- a nation of the Abrahamic Asshurites? How else could the Aesir Scandinavians have come to use the Garden of Eden as the bedrock of their pagan religion? Pagans are defined as those who abandon Biblical concepts, who instead worship their ancestors.
It's even more interesting that the pre-tribulation rapture was invented by a cult (Catholic Apostolic Church) that held with wild abandon to European-Israelism. It's fine to theorize that many Europeans stem from Hebrew stock, but to attempt to make Europe a twelve-tribe Theocracy in the name of Biblical Israel, as the Catholic Apostolic Church attempted, is Christian lunacy. To their dying days, the twelve apostles of that cult (one for the United States as well) awaited the return of Jesus to rule Israelite Europe as per the Biblical Millennium. Imagine that. I am certain that it was an Illuminati cult of the highest order, unbeknown to its naive membership, of course.
Most often, European-Israelism (rejected by mainline Christianity) includes the notion that the Israelite tribe of Dan moved from Greece into the Danube river and then to Denmark, etc., all the while spreading Dan-blood throughout Europe (e.g. to become the Germanic tribes). However, when I noticed the similarity between "Dan" and "Dedan" I immediately pondered whether secret societies, in teaching their Freemason pawns their secrets, have substituted Dan for Dedan in order to have them unwittingly teach a non-truth, in order to deflect the reality from the masses? My feelers tell me that it’s of prime importance to the secret societies to convince us that they are from Israelites and Levites, and should historians discover that in fact the European “Jews” are from the non-Israelite, non-Levite blood of Chaldea, the hopes of the secret societies will be dashed for producing their counterfeit Millennium in the name of Israel and/or Jesus.
We must distinguish between Freemasons at large, and those who rule the Freemasonic institutions, for Freemasons are simply the lowly pawns knowing not what they are doing on behalf of their masters. Only if they show anti-Christian qualities enough may they be taken from the religious sea into higher circles where the true political agenda becomes known. As always, world rule.
One can see how a peoples would like to promote themselves as the Chosen People just for being descended from Abraham. But I say none of all this to say that the descendants of Keturah (Abraham's wife) were Israelites just because they were Abraham's descendants, for Israelites stem from his son, Isaac, not from Keturah's children. However, both Abraham and Nahor were Hebrews since both were descended from Eber, thus making Hebrews out of both the Asshurites and Buzites.
In that the Buzites from Nahor are distinct from the Asshurites from Abraham, it implies the formation of two cults, one the Buzi Germanics (Merovingians included), and the other the Aesir Germanics (Swedes included)...

...I repeated in multiple chapters of this book that the Bia peoples, who are said to have founded Lake Van in Armenia, became a peoples by a similar name in Greece and Europe. I had no idea where that theory was going to lead, and very little solid bases for even holding to the theory. It turned out leading to the Merovingians (progenitors of the Franks) even though I was determined to leave the Merovingians out of my research as much as was possible. Then I came across "Bias" and "Boiis" terms, found in Greek myth/history. But here, merely on day seven of my new Hebrew-Aryan theory, I find that the cousin of Buz may have founded Sevan, wherefore I'm scratching my head asking if Buz might have founded the Bia people. Might "Bia" have originally been "Bias"? Is this not at least a plausibility since a "Nairi" peoples were rulers at Lake Van???
As the Buzi Medes were probably sorcerers, as were their neighbors, the Magi Medes, it is perhaps meaningful that Herodotus considered the "Neuri" peoples to have been sorcerers, while others have identified them as Nahorites, an idea I have previously shunned for lack of evidence. The Neuri lived north of Thrace on the Bug river, and some do connect them to the Nairi of Lake Van. To substantiate that Nahor left behind a peoples by his own name, there is this statement online: "Nahor: The name Nahor, Abraham’s brother, has been found in the Mari texts when referring to a city by that name." Mari was on the Euphrates between Erech and Haran, but was also a land in Iran (in Margiana) next to Aria (land of the Aryans). It had been my suspicion that the Roman god, Mars, was a depiction of peoples from Mari, for it is "looked upon as the ancient Paradise, the cradle of the Aryan families of mankind..."
(http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Merv)
I had independently tied the Odin-worshipping Scandinavians to the blue-eyed and blonde "Budini," since that term is essentially equal to "Woten/Voten" (i.e. Odin). I had only found one other person online who took that position, all others seemed stumped or else pointed in general to the Thracians as the ancestors of the Swedes. It was only later when I discovered that, according to Herodotus, the Budini and the Neuri lived in each other's midst. And behold what I found yesterday, day six of my new theory:
"The 18th century Swedish historian Olof von Dalin wrote that the Neuri were a mixture of Scythians, Greeks and Hebrews who accompanied another race, the Budiner or "Shepherd Scythians", to the Swedish islands around 400 BC, because of pressure from the Macedonians."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuri
Hocus Pocus, that came at me like a rabbit out of a hat, grinning....


Not sure if John has stumbled on to this ... 'German' apparently comes from 'Kerman' (as does Mt. 'Herman'). whistle.gif

And by the way, 'Byzantium' is another "Buz/Bee" term.



(The above hexogram in red is not historically a Jewish symbol - it is a pagan symbol, it represents dualism, bee-colony-hierarchy, perfect geometry. That's why the freemasons have long used it. FYI)
elreb
Lunk ask me to drop by.

What a big read...may take a while but I understand most of it.
Sanders
Welcome elreb, thanks for your interest.

I should warn you, this topic is very deep and I made these posts as I was trying to learn about this stuff, without the benefit of a good wholistic understanding of the topic at the start - what you read is me trying to make sense of it, in real time.

I haven't posted here for a while, because I am currently writing a book on this topic and my time is limited. I have however stumbled on to the truth that the tribes which pooled in Troad (Anatolia and Thrace) and the Hebrews of Judaea were probably from the same stock, as were the ancestors of the rulers of the Vikings and Franks. They all apparently shared a common history in Egypt, which explains perfectly the obsession of our modern rulers with pyramids and obelisks.

The most interesting read I have run across thus far is 'John', probably a Texan, author of an online collection of chapters titled 'Ladon Gog'. A tough read, but incredible.

More recently, I have discovered this body of work, by Stephen E Franklin.

http://neros.lordbalto.com/Contents.htm


This is top-notch research, and easier to digest than the Ladon Gog chapters. Very different, actually two completely different angles ... but aimed at the same target.

To cut to the chase, Franklin's premise is that Abraham's wife, Sarah, was an Egyptian princess, and that her "barrenness" prior to the birth of Isaac was an effort to hide the fact that he didn't even meet her till he was in Egypt. This makes the descendants of Abraham essentially princes and princesses of Egypt. Furthermore, Abraham, it appears, was a king himself - of Ugarit.

It is all so complicated I can't relay it in a single post ... but the Franks, Vikings, Israelites, Spartans and Thebeians, and Huns and Khazars, many of which converged on Europe a thousand years ago and took over most of the world were all branches of one blood-line, whether factual or mythical/cultural. I can't say for the Hunnic tribes, I suspect they were a special case, but for all the others, they all were intimately connected with the aristocracy of Egypt going back to three and a half thousand years ago.

Anyway, there's the link above for anyone curious.
elreb
Sanders,

I have a similar problem with the stories I write (in real time) and also cover the Vikings and the Egyptians. Because of this I am open to corrections when presented properly.

Abraham, Moses and Josephs were all involved with Hamic women especially those from Cush and Mizraim.

Abraham (Abram) originally came from the “Ur of Kasdim”, somewhere around Urfa and not far from Ugarit.

Their offspring were very much Egyptian and Kushite which lead me to the discovery that the “Ur of Salim” (Jerusalem) was located in Upper Egypt, which was known as Cush and to some extent Ethiopia.

Solomon’s temple still exists in Karnak & Luxor. I see his name as “Sol Amun”. Amun-Ra...

Herodotus stated the four races in Libya/Africa as Berber, Bantu, Greeks and Phoenicians.

It is my personal belief that the Phoenicians came from the “North Sea” as a pre-Viking culture.

I also believe they brought the “Bronze Age” to Egypt as attested by the “Trundholm sun chariot”.



Elreb
elreb
I quickly looked over Stephen E Franklin and the biggest problem I have is with the dates.

There is rock solid proof that main stream Egyptians dates are off by 800 years.

A small example are:

The Greeks = Aamu/AAMW: People who came from the sunrise (East) thought to be from Anatolia.

Both Herodotus & Diodorus of Sicily agree that Ionian & Carian pirates assisted Psammetichos (664-610 BC) to defeat 11 sub-kings on the shores of Pelusian branch of the Nile which was near the fortress of Pelusium and this was the “first time” that Greeks came to stay in Egypt.

The Phoenicians = Themehu/Thmenatu/TMHU: People who came from the sunset (West). By 814 B.C. they would relate to Utica & Carthage.

Hold on…if the Phoenicians did not show up until 814 BC and the Greeks did not show up until 632 BC then all you really had in Africa was the white “Amazigh Berbers” and the dark “Ethiopian Bantus”!

Once you get the dates correct, and get rid of ghost history and shadow history everything just falls into place.

Ancient history is like the governments version of 911.
Sanders
QUOTE (elreb @ Jul 18 2010, 04:02 PM) *
Both Herodotus & Diodorus of Sicily agree that Ionian & Carian pirates assisted Psammetichos (664-610 BC) to defeat 11 sub-kings on the shores of Pelusian branch of the Nile which was near the fortress of Pelusium and this was the “first time” that Greeks came to stay in Egypt.



Are you saying that foreigners from Egypt didn't migrate to Greece? Diodorus himself quoted Hecateus:

“The most distinguished of the expelled foreigners followed Danaus and Cadmus from Egypt; but the greater number were led by Moses into Judæa.”

Danaus and Cadmus of course migrate from Egypt to Greece in the Greek myths.
elreb
You said, “ expelled foreigners”…

In my book they are Phoenician and not native of Libya/Africa “per sa”.

Greek mythology, Belus was the son of Poseidon and Libya.

He was a king of Egypt and father of Aegyptus and Danaus and brother to Agenor the Phoenician king of Tyre.

The wife of Belus has been named as Anchirrhoe, Achiroe, from the Phoenician city of Sidon.


Roughly speaking, 814 – 632 = 182 years Phoenicians ruler in Libya before the Greeks showed up.


No matter, I can still give you one Royal family but without the confusion.

Also...


The Kingdom of Israel is not the same as the Kingdom of Judah.

If you accept the dates, Israel ceased to exist after 720 BC. Judah existed until 586 BC.

Cyrus the Great freed Judah in 539 BC and about 40,000 “Jews” moved to Aswan in Upper Egypt and there they built the “House of Yahweh” or second temple.

In effect, Cyrus was Moses…

It gets better when you find out who Cyrus really was!
Sanders
elreb, I think we are discussing two completely different eras here. I'm talking about before there was anyone in the Levant called the Phoenicians yet. I'm assuming Herodotus' expelled foreigners are the Hyksos, and we are talking about the end of the 2nd intermediary or the beginning of the New Kingdom.

I suspect what you had was a large migration from Canaan to Egypt consistent with the invasion of the Hyksos (that doesn't mean that the proto-Isralites, proto-Spartans etc. in Egypt were Hyksos or "Hapiru" necessarily), who came from Canaan or the northern Levant/southwestern corner of Anatolia supposedly, and, when Egypt threw all the foreigners out at the beginning of the New Kingdom some went back to Canaan and some to Pelpponnesia, or Anatolia by way of Crete, or Mt. Ida near the yet to be found city of Troy as in the case of Dardanus. Exactly when what people went where is of course fuzzy and open to debate, but there are so many clues that point to this as the general migration route. The Cadmus, Phoenix and Danaus narrative, the name of Thebes being the same as the Egyptian city, the myth of Dardanus, the Tuatha de Danaan and the Tribe of Dan parallels for example. You mention Belus, I point out the similary of Belus to Akkadian Belu and Canaanite Ba'al, as well as Dan and Naphtali's handmaiden mother Bilah. Dan's use of the serpent and the Eagle along with Sparta, the letter from Sparta to Judah describing common roots, the Herodotus quote, common names like Iapetus the Titan god of mortal humans and Japheth the patriarch of the Euroasian peoples, the names Ida (as in Mt. Ida on Crete and in western Anatolia) and Judah, I could go on and on.

I'm not saying the Israelites and the Greeks shared common origins, but rather that the Israelites shared a common history in Egypt with migrants to Peloponnesia, Thebes, Crete and the Trojan areas - which, coincidentally, are where you find the fierce warrior peoples like the Spartans and the Corybantes, and mariners like the Milesians who invaded Spain and Scotland. Also, a massive return of native Canaanites to Canaan from Egypt would explain the preponderance of new tribal distinctions which arise there in the mid-second millenium. Before the middle of the 2nd millenium, you have much less distinction in the Levant between peoples. You read about Canaanites, or a Ugaritic peoples, or whatever. Then later you have all these well defined tribes - Phoenicians, Amorites, Philistines, Jebusites, Ammonites, even the Mittani become distinct after this period. Maybe historians just don't have enough information to define tribal identities before this, but could it be that suddenly you had a sudden influx of refugees (originally natives of Canaan) from Egypt into the Levant half way through the 2nd millenium, fighting for land?

Secondly, was this first migration to Egypt from Canaan contemporary with the ancestors of Judah moving from Canaan to Egypt because of Famine? And was the expulsion of the Hyksos and/or Herodotus' "expelled foreigners" contemporary with the "Exodus"?

I'm trying to get clearer on this sort of stuff at the moment ... there seem to be so many opinions. dunno.gif

Cheers

................
P.S. I see we are talking about different eras, and just wanted to point out that these three cultural centers, Canaan, Egypt and Greece, were constantly interacting. No wonder there is such confusion. It occurs to me though that there should be some archeological record of an influx of migrants from Egypt to Greece, expecially Crete, western Anatolia, Peloponnesia, Samothrace Lemnos etc. midway through the 2nd millenium if what I'm alluding to here is correct. I'm gonna keep my eye out for it. wink.gif

P.S.S. Regarding that Franklin literature, he makes an argument in chapter V that Abraham's wife Sarai was the sister of the Pharaoh. This struck me like a lightening bolt. If you remember from the bible, Abraham left Egypt a wealthy man ... could it be because he had married a princess? Secondly, I have long been aware of the dragon rites which the Israelites imported with them from Egypt - the root of "messiah" being "messeh", the holy crocodile with whose fat the Pharaohs were annointed for one, Jesus and John being "or Nazareth" and "the Great Nazar" respectively, 'Nazar' fitting in a category of terms that mean "dragon". This revelation that Abraham's wife, hence the matriarch of Judaeism, Christianity, and Islam, was an Egyptian princess explains all that in a specific way, and also explains why it is Abraham who gets the credit for being the patriarch of all these religions. There may even be evidence here that one can use to trace monotheism in general to the Aten cult of Egypt, as Michael Tsarion has tried for so long to do. That would be dependent on the timeline of course, which is fuzzy. Cheers.
Sanders
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 19 2010, 03:10 AM) *
P.S. I see we are talking about different eras, and just wanted to point out that these three cultural centers, Canaan, Egypt and Greece, were constantly interacting. No wonder there is such confusion. It occurs to me though that there should be some archeological record of an influx of migrants from Egypt to Greece, expecially Crete, western Anatolia, Peloponnesia, Samothrace Lemnos etc. midway through the 2nd millenium if what I'm alluding to here is correct. I'm gonna keep my eye out for it. wink.gif

P.S.S. Regarding that Franklin literature, he makes an argument in chapter V that Abraham's wife Sarai was the sister of the Pharaoh. This struck me like a lightening bolt. If you remember from the bible, Abraham left Egypt a wealthy man ... could it be because he had married a princess? Secondly, I have long been aware of the dragon rites which the Israelites imported with them from Egypt - the root of "messiah" being "messeh", the holy crocodile with whose fat the Pharaohs were annointed for one, Jesus and John being "of Nazareth" and "the Great Nazar" respectively, 'Nazar' fitting in a category of terms that mean "dragon". This revelation that Abraham's wife, hence the matriarch of Judaeism, Christianity, and Islam, was an Egyptian princess explains all that in a specific way, and also explains why it is Abraham who gets the credit for being the patriarch of all these religions. There may even be evidence here that one can use to trace monotheism in general to the Aten cult of Egypt, as Michael Tsarion has tried for so long to do. That would be dependent on the timeline of course, which is fuzzy. Cheers.


Responding to my own questions -

I have found that there is archeological evidence which may support the mythical migration of peoples from Crete to Miletus. Cretian (Minoan) artifacts start showing up in what will become Miletus on the west coast of Anatolia, named for Mil (root of Milesians, military), in the centuries before, during and after the official era of Hyksos rule in Egypt. Crete had close connections with Canaan, so this movement can possibly be attributed to whatever sent the Hyksos Canaanites to Egypt in the first place (famine ?) and to the expulsion of foreigners from Egypt a century or two later. Either way, we have a first bit of archeological evidence for this scenario I'm proposing.

The founding and fall of Troy roughly coincide with best-guesses as to the era of the "Exodus". (13th century B.C.?)

As for Aten (Aton), the Pharaoh Akhenaten comes later, around 1350 B.C. If the source of monotheistic values, i.e. the seeds of Judaism, derive from Akhenaten, then the Hyksos expulsion from Egypt and the Exodus must be two different events, separated by about 2 centuries. Franklin appears to go along with such a timeline, others do not. Add to that confusion, the accepted timelines may be completely useless, as you said, elreb, so eloquently, ancient history is like the official version of 9/11. Hahah.

I really don't know what to think at this point. However, I am inclined to accept Franklin's premise that Sarai (Sarah - Abraham's wife) was a sister of a Pharaoh. Abraham wasn't just some nobody, he was a prince of Ugarit and later king apparently, he taught astonomy in Egypt. The biblical story whereby the Pharaoh tries to acquire Sarah from Abraham but is stopped by angels and afflicted with sickness is obviously nonsense, and it makes no sense that the Pharaoh, for his embarassment and failure to get in Sarah's pants would award Abraham with riches, even if Abraham did cure the Pharaoh's sickness. The whole story is just too weird. Abraham marrying a sister of the Pharaoh makes much more sense, and covering up this Egyptian blood in the line of the kings of kings provides ample reason for twisting the story around. This is all in Franklin's 5th chapter, in the later part.
KrNel
The inbred King Tut "Caucasoid/"white" (by extension his father Akhenaton and mother/sister 'unknown' as well Caucasoid)
QUOTE
By entering all the STR data inadvertently shown on the Discovery video, a 99.6 percent fit with the R1b haplogroup is revealed.

The significance is, of course, that R1b is the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup in Europe reaching its highest concentrations in Ireland, Scotland, western England and the European Atlantic seaboard — in other words, European through and through.

http://www.eutimes.net/2010/06/king-tuts-d...stern-european/

Looks like papa Akhenaton married his sister to produce this inbred yokel:

QUOTE
In February 2010, the results of DNA tests confirmed that Tutankhamun was the son of Akhenaten (mummy KV55) and his sister/wife (mummy KV35YL), whose name is unknown but whose remains are positively identified as "The Younger Lady" mummy found in KV35.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutankhamun
Hawass, Zahi et al. "Ancestry and Pathology in King Tutankhamun's Family" The Journal of the American Medical Association, February 17, 2010. Vol 303, No. 7 p.638-647

Trad. consensus on history of people in Euro area:
QUOTE
Prehistoric Europe

Most anthropologists believe that humans migrated from Africa and appeared in Europe more than 700,000 years ago. Neanderthal Man, an early form of human, emerged in Europe sometime between 100,000 and 200,000 years ago. One of the earliest forms of modern humans, Cro-Magnon Man, appeared in Europe in about 40,000 b.c. Prehistoric Europeans were hunters and gatherers until about 6000 b.c., when organized agriculture spread to Europe from the Near East.

Mediterranean Civilizations

The first major European civilization, the Minoan civilization, developed on the island of Crete about 2500 b.c. and lasted until about 1400 b.c. The Minoans were the first Europeans to develop a system of writing. Minoan culture spread to nearby islands and to the Balkan peninsula.

The Achaeans, an ancient Indo-European people, created a highly developed civilization that displaced the Minoans about 1400 b.c. and lasted until about 1100 b.c. The civilization was known as the Mycenaean civilization, after its foremost city, Mycenae, on the Peloponnesus. Mycenaean culture spread throughout much of the eastern Mediterranean region.

The Greek and Roman Period

From the Mycenaean civilization emerged a Hellenic, or Greek, civilization. From about 1100 b.c. until the Roman conquest of Greece in the first century B.C., the Greeks created a society outstanding for self-government, philosophy, architecture, mathematics, sculpture, and literature. Greek culture spread throughout most of the Mediterranean region. In central and northern Europe there were less advanced peoples, such as the Celts.

http://history.howstuffworks.com/european-...e.htm/printable

But, if the DNA from inbred Tut is 99.6% North-Western Euro, and he is from 14th C BCE, then the ancestors of poppa Akhenator or momma unknown derive from North West Europe, with no interbreeding with African Negro population at least for a good many generations (otherwise he wouldn't be 99.6% "white").

Since the civilizational expansion only reached that area (read above quote "Celts") in c. 1100 BCE, then we have a few possibilities for how they got to Egypt

If the accepted chrono is right: either some white folk came or were traded and eventually ended up in Egypt, or the Egyptians took them from up north or wherever they were and they got into the bloodline.
Or, the accepted chrono is not right: we don't know when Tut ruled (in chrono timeline), or when West Euro people were able to be in contact with this southern Egyptian civilization (in chrono timeline). Likely scenario is both civilizations were in tandem development, with a possibility of the West Euro civ being more mature (older) than the Egyptian, resulting in their conquering it or injecting themselves into the ruling elite. Which explains why "whites" are the ruling power in Egypt in 14th Century BCE. Otherwise, how would some people from North-West Euro in a non-civlizational state (i.e. no large organizational societal structure) manage to get to Egypt and take over? You need to be advanced enough to have trade or some form of communication to know they are even there. Egypt wouldn't give a shit about nobodies up north if that was the case. So, in order for these Caucasoid "White" from North-West Euro to get there on their own or be taken and end up in the royal bloodline would necessitate an importance of some form of maturity to make them of value. At least I think so.

I favor the latter (accepted chrono is not correct for various civs). As the former requires the "original" African Negroid population willingly diluting their racial hegemony by taking "white" partners willingly for whatever reason -- illogical in power structure unless mounting pressure to do so via existing or new influx of alternating power bloc i.e. the "whites". The importance of "royal bloodlines" is apparent in the marriage of the sister by Akhenaton, so clearly a biological and racial ideology existed (even though these words were probably not used), the understanding was the same. Maybe the alleged original Egyptian elite "blacks" did not adhere to a bloodline philosophy. And this is assuming the original rulers of the Egyptian civilization (not simple tribal rulers) were African Negroes -- which is debatable.

Indeed, as I see it, the chrono's are bullshit, which should lessen the emphasis on claiming absolute dates for various people. The important aspect is the chronological (non-temporal based) development of events and peoples, -- regardless of fixed chronological placement on the timeline relative to our own concoction of the year '2010' -- in trying to figure out who went where, what they did, who remained, how they mixed, etc. It is all 'guess work' from existing accepted assumptions/conclusions that may or may not be right. No verifiability. Believe what we want wink.gif
elreb
The Kings of Atlantis:

Poseidon, the earth-shaker, God of the Sea, Earthquakes and Horses was alotted the dominion of the sea just as Zeus got the sky, and Hades the Underworld.

Poseidon colonized the Island of Atlantis and named his first son “Atlas” by Cleito as its first king. His twin brother obtained the Island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world. All these and their descendants for many generations were the inhabitants and rulers of divers islands in the open sea; and also, as has been already said, they held sway in our direction over the country within the Pillars as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia. (Tentyra)

Atlantis = Doggerland

Poseidon = Sidon

Atlas = Atlas Mountains (Morocco)

Gades = Cadiz/Gadir (Spain)

Pillars of Heracles = Gibraltar & Abyla

Belus was the son of Poseidon and Libya = Belus, king of Egypt and Agenor king of Tyre.

Belus + Anchirrhoe of Sidon = Aegyptus and Danaus

Danaus moves to the Phoenician Colony of “Argo” located in Magnisia, Thessaly, home of the Argonauts'.

From Danaus you get Hypermnestra and from Aegyptus you get Lynceus

From Lynceus and Hypermnestra you get Abas

From Abas you get Acrisius

From Acrisius you get Danae and from Zeus and Danae you get Perseus.

Therefore within 8 generations, you have the Persian Empire…how is that possible?

PSS: Somehow I want to connect the Danes with Danaus going back to the Trundholm Sun Disk & horse.
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