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Bruce Sinclair
Some months ago I posted a comment about a movie I had seen about a DC-8 crash that I couldn't find again. Well, luckily I'm on medevac night shift and got back from a late flight so I turned on the tube and was able to see this documentary again on the CBC documentary channel between 3 and 4 am.

This documentary concerns itself with the crash of a Trans-Canada Airlines DC-8 north of Montreal on 29 Nov 1963. It is called "At The Moment Of Impact". The reason I want to get a hold of this documentary is that it clearly shows what is left of a large jet aircraft that impacts the ground at a very high speed in a near vertical flight path. Most of the aircraft and its contents were recovered and the crash investigators were able to determine almost everything about this crash even though the crash pre-dated the installation of FDR's and CVR's. All of this was determined from the recovered wreckage.

I am going to try to get a copy of this documentary and pass is around. After seeing this, if anyone still thinks that large transport category aircraft simple "disappear" or "vaporize" after hitting the ground in a vertical descent at a very high speed, I will be very surprised.

Has anyone else seen this documentary??
dMz
Hi Bruce,

Here are some links on the TCA 831 crash (not any photos though):

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19631129-0

http://archives.cbc.ca/version_print.asp?p...t=&IDCatPa=

I could not get this Nov. 29, 1963 news archive video to play or download:
http://archives.cbc.ca/on_this_day/11/29/12700/
SPreston
QUOTE
Trans-Canada Air Lines crash kills 118
Broadcast Date: Nov. 29, 1963

Trans-Canada Air Lines flight 831 has crashed outside of Montreal. As heard in this radio report, the CBC's Sheridan Nelson approaches the wreckage, making his way through the thick fog and the burning red trees. He describes the tragic setting as a scene of "almost indescribable devastation." There are no survivors among the 118 passengers and crew members who perish in the crash. As of this day in 1963, it is Canada's worst air disaster.
Trans-Canada Air Lines crash kills 118

• Trans-Canada Airlines' flight 831 left Montreal's Dorval airport for Toronto at 6:28 p.m. Four minutes later, the DC-8 jet crashed in the foothills of the Laurentians near Ste. Thérèse.
• Residents in the area described the fiery, loud explosion and crash into a muddy, tree-lined swamp. "There was this overwhelming noise and the sky was all red. We didn't know where to throw ourselves," Laura Lanctôt told the Toronto Star. "I thought it was the end of the world." (Nov. 30, 1963)

• At Malton airport outside Toronto, relatives of the victims gathered to hear the grim list of the dead. The Toronto Star reported that many of the passengers were businessmen; their wives stoically waited to hear the bad news. "The mothers remained composed: They read stories to the children, played with them and smiled; only their red-rimmed eyes and a tightness about their lips betrayed their inner fear." (The Toronto Star, Nov. 30, 1963)

• The 10-month-old plane was piloted by Capt. Jack Snider, a 19-year TCA veteran.
• The plane caused serious damage to the houses in the surrounding area. The Toronto Star reported that in one home, situated 300 feet (91 metres) from the crash, the plaster cracked and the plumbing wrenched from the wall. In local stores, the impact of the crash caused windows to shatter.

• TCA paid $7,000,000 for the DC-8 jetliner which could maintain a speed of 885 kilometres per hour at an altitude of 35,000 feet.
• Technical failure was cited as one of the main causes of the crash.

• Eight passengers had missed the flight due to a massive traffic jam in Montreal. In the downtown core, Christmas shoppers and rainy weather slowed the slow-moving streets. Gail McEachern was supposed to have been on flight 831. She told the Toronto Star, "I'll never complain about the shambles of Montreal traffic again."
• As of 2007, Air India flight 182 was Canada's deadliest air disaster. All 329 people on board were killed en route to London from Montreal.
Trans-Canada Air Lines crash kills 118

Medium: Radio

Program: Sunday Morning Magazine

Broadcast Date: Nov. 29, 1963


Host: Bruce Rogers, Bob Willson
Reporter: Bob McGrath, Tom Leach, James Minifie, Sheridan Nelson

Duration: 7:19

Last updated:
Feb. 28, 2008

http://archives.cbc.ca/on_this_day/11/29/12700/

Your video link worked just fine for me d.
dMz
Thanks Spreston,

I had the new computer on mute. doh1.gif The audio worked great, but was disguised as a video.

My searches did find another? archive in French (Francais):

http://archives.radio-canada.ca/societe/fa...ers/clips/9892/

http://archives.radio-canada.ca/version_pr...amp;IDCatPa=152

Here are a few more links, but I\'m not finding any photos or video yet.

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/view_de...anada+Air+Lines

The Wikipedia links that came up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accid...ercial_aircraft

see Air Canada (incl. TCA)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accid...ners_by_airline

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_DC-8

Military aircraft accidents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_accid...litary_aircraft

EDIT: No photos at the chronological archive for TCA 831 in 1963 at:
http://aviation-safety.net/photos/gallery....ycode&var=%

EDIT2: More info on the Air Canada DC8 fleet:
http://www.dc-8jet.com/aca-dc8-fleet-info.htm

I found a couple of pre-crash photos of DC-8-54F #CF-TJN though:


http://dc-8.co.uk/extant.htm

http://www.myaviation.net/search/photo_sea...php?id=00809725

http://www.myaviation.net/search/search.ph...nada%20Airlines
Omega892R09
I have found this picture which purports to be that of the DC-8 CF-TJN crash in question:



Reposted from:

http://groups.msn.com/ConseilHistoriquedes...amp;PhotoID=268
Bruce Sinclair
Thanks alot to everyone for jumping in on this one! Well done! I will contact CBC tomorrow to see how I can get a hold of a copy of this documentary. It is amazing what they were able to discover about this crash just from the recovered wreckage. They were able to determine the angle of the aircraft on impact, the power settings, the speed, etc.

I would like to contrast this to the alleged "crash" near Shanksville so that people can see how improbable (impossible?) the claims are that a large transport category jet actually crashed there.

Hope everyone is having a great week-end!!
Destinova
The interesting thing about this crash is what I learned about it in a german forum.

Here's the source: http://www.mysnip.de/forum-archiv/thema/24...hlinger%3F.html

First of all, a member starts with a film about the assassination of president Kennedy. He ask if somebody knows a mentioned "Walter Ohlinger".

The reply to his post is: That there is a very interessting interview with a old man. Maybe a readjusted interview with a old man that tells about a time when he was 20 years old. He tells that he is the second rifleman besides Lee Harvey Oswald. And the question is... is he still alive?

Interesting to me is the next reply:
It's not possible that the second rifleman is still alive because he died at even this flight on 29 Nov 1963. The passanger list is still classified as "secret"...

And of course the last reply... let me translate:
Re: Walter Ohlinger?

from Thomas Schmid - on 20.May 2003 23:31

... Thomas Datum: 24 Apr 2003 17:34 The 1999 closed examination board for assassination documents quarried a truly "hot track". Tom Tilson, a Police Officer from Dallas that got a day off on the 22 Nov 1963, together with his doughter at the time of the assassination were close to the DP (?) and on the way with his car, notice a black car that parked behind the triple underpass and that hectically rush away right after the shots. Tilson chase that (for his own terms "fleeting") car a while but get leave behind. He notify the FBI right after the event and gave them the number plate. Tilson was never consult and never heard anything about that event again. 33 years later the blacken protocol of the "Assassination Records Review Board", that were classified as "secret" appeared at the documents summary again. It arise from the documents that the FBI take this event for serious and call out a nationwide tracing (emphatically as a observation instruction without access!) for that car. According to the safety protocol the car with mentioned number plate toured through the USA as follows:
22. Nov. at 12:40 Dallas heading to the north.
T.Tilson Dallas Police on 24.Nov at 16:30 Memphis heading north
S.Parker FBI 25.Nov at 11:30 Interstate towards Chicago
R.W. Ray Memphis Patrol 27.Nov at 21:15 Detroit Higway Station Off. Dolway heading to Canada
Detroit Police mention of 2-3 occupants
On 29 Nov 1963 crashes the DC-8 flight Trans Canada Air Lines, from Montreal to Mexico with 118 Passengers.
On 07.Dec 1963 the traced, abandoned car, were found by the Montreal Police near to the Montreal Dorval Airport and get secured.
On 11.Dec 63 the car get inspected by the FBI and brought back to the USA.
At this point there is no clue for contents and the whereabout of the car.
About the reason of the plane crash, the commission report says: "Crashed shortly after takeoff from Montreal-Dorval Airport after an uncommanded extention of the pitch trim compensator."
Anything else including the passenger list are still classified as "Secret". ...
dMz
QUOTE (Destinova @ Jul 13 2008, 04:39 PM) *
Interesting to me is the next reply:
It's not possible that the second rifleman is still alive because he died at even this flight on 29 Nov 1963. The passanger list is still classified as "secret"...

Thanks Destinova,

That is a truly interesting twist that I'd never heard of before. You might want to look for a German translation of the "Torbitt Document" or "NOMENCLATURE OF AN ASSASSINATION CABAL" by William Torbitt- you might see some other familar names or connections.

http://www.newsmakingnews.com/torbitt.htm

Mae Brussell links:
http://www.newsmakingnews.com/mblinks.htm
-----------------------------
I'm not sure how "FOIA"-type things work in Canada, but classifications in the US are supposed to last about 25 years, then become public information. Do any of our friends North Of the Border (NOB) wink.gif want to turn over a few rocks on this passenger list?
fransan
From air disaster.com accident database: On TCA 831

Accident Description: Crashed shortly after takeoff from Montreal-Dorval Airport after an uncommanded extention of the pitch trim compensator.

I found interesting the fact that no recognizable pieces of aircraft can be seen in the picture. By the way, this is not a high speed vertical crash to the ground. The crash might have been near to or vertical but certainly not high speed, since it was shortly after take off.

Casualties were 118 of 118.
Bruce Sinclair
There were plenty of recongnizable pieces recovered. Basically, the whole aircraft was recovered and the investigation determined that the plane had crashed at a very high speed. It had been quite a bit higher and then started a rapid descent, and then leveled off for a brief time just below the clouds and then pitched over and dove at a very high speed into the ground. This is all covered very well in the documentary.

The Kennedy assassination link is a very interesting twist on this crash. The crash was overshadowed by the fact that Kennedy had been assassinated just days before on November 22nd.

Another interesting angle which I had never considered is the theory that the assassins escaped through Canada back to France - a theory which no doubt a few of you that have studied the assassination will remember...

Also, this flight was from Montreal to Toronto, not Mexico as stated above.
Omega892R09
QUOTE (fransan @ Jul 12 2008, 02:19 AM) *
I found interesting the fact that no recognizable pieces of aircraft can be seen in the picture.


Doh! Did you not notice that there was rather alot of water in the crash site.

QUOTE
The crash might have been near to or vertical but certainly not high speed, since it was shortly after take off.



Who told you it was not 'high speed'?

or

From where did you source this information?

Because it was 'shortly' after take off (I note your use of elastic descriptions) does not mean it was not a high speed crash (whatever you mean by that?).

If you had followed some of dMoles links you would have discovered the velocity at impact. I'll help you out:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record...9-0&lang=fr

Please note here the early date on this report the compilers of which would not have had the full data to inform on the probable cause.

Edit. I suggest you find a few books on air crashes and study them, they often have pictures of interest.
dMz
QUOTE (Omega892R09 @ Jul 14 2008, 05:08 AM) *
Who told you it was not 'high speed'?

or

From where did you source this information?

Because it was 'shortly' after take off (I note your use of elastic descriptions) does not mean it was not a high speed crash (whatever you mean by that?).

If you had followed some of dMoles links you would have discovered the velocity at impact. I'll help you out:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record...9-0&lang=fr

Well that "but certainly not high speed" bit certainly paints these 2 posts in an interesting light:

#46
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10745791

#54
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum//index....&p=10745820

I don't think I want Carlos, er fransan vectoring any bird I'm riding on anytime soon.
Destinova
Good link about this flight:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/sos/002...0rurk1v815uqg66

And on the same web page some photos:

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/sos/002...0rurk1v815uqg66
fransan
Sorry. My mistake. The speed of the crash deffinetly is pretty high. Not as high perhaps as UA93 but pretty high anyways.
Yes I noticed the watter in the crash site, but still, I couldn´t make out any large piece of the plane, maybe at one side of the place or something like that.
About the reconstruction of the wreckage, are there any photos of that?
About the JFK assasination, is there somehow the suspicion that the accident was a sabotage to kill one of the assasins?
Carlos sends his regards by the way. Saw him three days ago in Monterrey, México.
Bruce Sinclair
The swamp was drained the following spring and they built a cofferdam around the site to prevent the dirt walls from collapsing. Then they dug down to recover all of the wreckage. Also, there were, I believe (going from memory) about 6 tons of debris recovered from the bush around the crash site in the spring after the snow had melted and the ground thawed.

Basically, the entire aircraft was recovered and reconstructed. The documentary shows all of these steps very clearly as there was a film crew around from the night of the crash right through the entire investigation.

I got a hold of CBC today to try to get a hold of a copy of this documentary and they promised to get back to me by e-mail shortly.

I can't remember the exact speed they calcuated, but I think it was around 470 kt at impact. So if an airplane can drive into a swamp at 470 (over 400 for sure - can't remember the exact number) and they can recover almost the entire airplane, it begs the question - what happened to the debris near Shanksville and for that matter, the Pentagon.

Personally, I have seen no evidence to support the claim that large transport category aircraft crashed at either of these sites.

I will keep everyone posted if I can get a hold of this documentary...
dMz
QUOTE (Bruce Sinclair @ Jul 15 2008, 12:34 AM) *
I can't remember the exact speed they calcuated, but I think it was around 470 kt at impact.

Hi Bruce,

From O892's post above:
"The aircraft then deviated from its normal flight path about 55deg to the right and began a quick descent. At 18:33, 16.9mls from the airport, the DC-8 struck the ground at a speed of 470-485 knots descending in an angle of about 55deg (+/- 7deg). It was found that the pitch trim compensator actuator was in the extended position and the horizontal stabilizer at setting of 1.9deg nose down on the right hand side and between 1.6deg and 1.7deg nose down on the left hand side."
Dave62
Bruce,
I would be interested in seeing or getting a copy of that documentary if you are able to get one from the CBC. The co-pilot of flight 831 was my neighbour.
ULTIMA1
QUOTE (fransan @ Jul 12 2008, 02:19 AM) *
I found interesting the fact that no recognizable pieces of aircraft can be seen in the picture. By the way, this is not a high speed vertical crash to the ground. The crash might have been near to or vertical but certainly not high speed, since it was shortly after take off.

Casualties were 118 of 118.



I find it interesting that Payne Stewarts Learjet (thats much smaller then a 757) Left almost as big as crater as the crater at Shankesville, and recognizable pieces could be clearly seen (even though it hit the ground almost straight in doing almost the speed of sound.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_South_Dakota_Learjet_crash
with the aircraft hitting the ground at a nearly supersonic speed and an extreme angle.[3]

Photos of pieces tht survived from the small Learjet.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...7BA-scene-1.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm..._background.jpg
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