Posted by: Hound Jul 31 2006, 10:51 AM


Hi, to you too Daniels!

Yes, that is right. But the means to further our historical knowledge has since then greatly improved. With lots of sciences to our aid. Epecially archeology.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with myths, as long as they are treated as myths. That was the case with the Indian, aboriginal and our pagan mythology.

The unique thing with christianity is that they are viewing myths as reality (I don't think the Jews do, however I'm not sure).

This phenomennon is especially obvious in the US, where you have this fundamental creed that litterally belives everything in the bible.

To them it is not myths at all. It is historical reality. They really believe Jesus walked on water, in the miracles etc.

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 31 2006, 10:52 AM


what about the summerian tablets? some of these are dated to be about 5,000 years old.

and through some of these tablets .. and other cave paints that have been found ... paganism .. or witchcraft predates christianity by thousands of years.

Posted by: Sanders Jul 31 2006, 11:56 AM


Are you asking me?

I asked much earlier on in this thread - would the world be a better place without monotheistic religion or a more chaotic one ?

I don't know. Did Christianity cause the dark ages or was it the fall of the roman empire? I say it was the fall. The Germanic tribes were warlike without much in the way of "high culture" - they fought each other as readily as they fought the Romans. You say 'they burnt every library' ... Who burnt who's libraries? As far as I know, the Visogoths, the Franks, the Lombards, the Ostragoths, they had no libraries. They were warriors.

Clovis was converted by his wife. She took Christianity because she liked the image of the Virgin Mary. Clovis' son recovered from an illness after she prayed once, (whether this is all Myth or "historical" I don't know) so when Clovis got in a jam he tried praying to God - for the heck of it, out of despiration, and subsequently won the battle. That was enough for him, he forced the whole of the Franks to convert. This was a people that believed Clovis' grandfather was a Seamonster (!?) They were hardly a sophisticated people.

A different question I might add, what lifted Europe out of the Dark Ages? Was it the Renaissance? Actually, it was probably the printing press more than anything - but what was it used to print?? The bible.

Then again, it might just have been greed.

However,

I agree with this. On top of that, I think fundamentalism pushes people backwards and toward violence.

But you know how humans are, they like movies, they like stories, they like myths. Especially if they give their lives meaning.

(You've figured by now that I don't believe in any religion, right?)

[QUOTE]9/11 was certainly a pretext for war, not a religious war. But they are using the tremendous power of religion. They are deliberatly spreading hatred among xtians towards Muslims.

I think you are right. In fact, I thought about it, and I think the only religious wars were probably the first Crusade (and even that's debateable), and probably some of the Muslim campaigns - thought I don't know enough about them to say. The Canaan wars of Joshua weren't religious - they were about clearing land. The fighting between the Jews and Palistinians isn't really religious in nature - that is, the Jews aren't trying to convert the Palestinians to Judaeism lol. It's about land.

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 31 2006, 12:51 PM


thats another reason i favor paganism ... its against wars and violence. plus .. it doesnt ask anyone to convert or follow thier ways .. they realize its not for everything .. that there are many paths to heaven or the summerland. many pagans actually combine it with other religions. there are christians that even mix with paganism.

and most pagans realize that the stories of old are just that ... stories. like the parables of the bible. they are good stories with good lessons .. but they dont say its factual history.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 31 2006, 05:21 PM




Listen, this is kind of getting old. Allah means God in Arabic. So God is God. Allah is Allah. Jehovah is Jehovah. They all mean the same thing in English. God. So God is Allah, Jehovah, Yahweh, Elohim, and etc. They're different languages, but same meanings. You believe that God sent His son to die for our sins, but we don't. God does mention Jesus's crucifying in the Qur'an, but only to say it never happened to him. We have different conceptions and beliefs about God, but it is still the same Supreme Being. Don't you believe that your god and the god of the Jews are the same? Don't you hold different beliefs about Him, though? That is the same with us Muslims.

Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 31 2006, 05:27 PM




i am not a christian ... but i do believe that god sent his son to die. its just the term of god that screws up the story. cuz yea ... doesnt really mean "GOD"

Posted by: Sanders Jul 31 2006, 07:16 PM

I had to laugh when I spotted the title of this thread - a concise history?? What what I thinking!

So just for heck of it, here's a concise history
http://img324.imageshack.us/img324/8179/timelineqp9.jpg

Also, I ran across this that was interesting - an article about the 12 Arab tribes - that co-existed (and fought) it seems with the Israelites.

Odd, I didn't realise that, not only are Judaeism and Islam closely related, the Jews and Arabs are really cousins (?)

http://www.brow.on.ca/Books/Ishmael/Ishpost.htm

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Jul 31 2006, 08:13 PM




If my God loves the Jews and your God hates them, then obviously they are not the same God. Allah can mean God all it wants to, but when it comes right down to it, when you look at their characteristics, their ideas, their actions, their consequences, they are two completely different Gods. And this is fundamentally where this huge religious conflict occurs.

Both Christianity and Islam are monotheistic. So if my God loves Jews and your hates them, and there can only be one God, one of us is wrong. My God created the nation of Israel through Isaac. Yours used Ishmael.

I'm by no means trying to be disrespectful to your beliefs, and I believe you did post some excellent things that I have learned from. I am simply saying we have arrived at the core of this religious conflict.

pr0mythius, as far as Sodom and Gomorrah goes, God had to destroy that city because of the nephalim. Nephalim are the offspring of angels having intercourse with humans. I'm at work and don't have my Bible with me, but I'll post the verses when I get home, unless someone beats me to it. Therefore, people like Hercules in Greek Mythology could have really existed because of this interbreeding of sorts, so myths are perfectly plausible at times.

As for the sex part...the fun stuff ...the Bible does not discourage sex, especially with your spouse. Christians who are being legalistic take that entirely out of context. Sex, in addition to being used for procreation, was designed for humans as a means of pleasure when you are married to your right man/right woman. So if you are married, God wants you to do it . Now, as for having sex when not married, God has a problem with that, but that is no greater of a sin than lying and gossiping is. All sins are equal. Now, if you would like to here a hilarious story about how I was really humiliated by my boyfriends parents who are STRICTLY RELIGIOUS, then PM me. The Bible never said you have to be babtised, but for God's sake, don't tell a babtist that.

When I go to church with my boyfriend's family I swear I take antibacterial because everyone in that church will hug you and shake your hand and stand in your personal space, to the point that you feel like you need a shower by the time you get done. I hate going to church.

Like I said, I'm at work, but if anyone needs me, or wants to talk about whatever (I'm bored, trust me), either PM me, email me, or send me a message on myspace at www.myspace.com/imabiggoober

Posted by: Sanders Jul 31 2006, 09:04 PM





You may have.

I'm starting to wonder though, what purpose does this debate serve?





Indulge me, I can think of a number of other posibilities... Your God loves the Jews and you only IMAGINE that his God hates the Jews. Your God hates the Jews too but you Imagine that he loves the Jews. God only loves jews, Christians and Muslims are all infidels. Only the Hindus have it right. All Gods are the same and neither hate nor love any of us, we just imagine he loves some of us and hates others. We all worship the same God who loves all of us, and after thousands of years we've added too much of our own commentary and everyone's confused. There is no God, this debate is pointless. There is a God, anyone can and will believe what they want, and this debate is pointless. There may or may not be a God, and he may or may not love us, which is irrelevant to "religion", because religion is nothing more than belief in a collection of myths, stories written by people. Islam, Judaeism and Christianity are connected because they derive from some of the same myths, whether they all worship the same God or not is not confirmable or not confirmable by those sets of beliefs, because they are simply a collection of myths and stories written by people, not by God.

I'm just stating possibilities, some of them purposely absurd, not what I believe. I hope we can get off of this soon.

Posted by: Sinewy Jul 31 2006, 09:58 PM


For Usediscernment/DayAfterTomorrow:


[quote] If Allah is the God of the Bible, why is he never called by these names?  [/quote]


The Christians in Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Jordan refer God as Allah. The name Allah is sufficient for them. The God in Islam has 99 Names and Attributes which have never been seen in the Bible, all 99 of them. Show me them. Should that insinuate that God in Judaism and Christianity lacks qualities of being a God?? God in Islam is the same God in Judaism and Christianity.

Side Note to start off: Please don't play the semantic games and fail miserably like others in confrontational debates (Read the works of Abu Bakr al Baqillani, a medieval Islamic scholar and was seen as a genius, particularily as the `ilm al kalam was at a heightened position at that time in history). Every well researched and scholarly Muslim I know, knows many orientalists including Tisdall and Muir. This conspicuous methodology will only work on the novice or ignorant. True Christians and true lovers of Christ, as I have many friends of, are never like this.


[quote]The God of the Bible tells us again and again that He is the God of the Jews. Many times He is called "the God of Israel." Yet there is such hatred for Israel among Muslims! [/quote]


By your logic, from the Old Testament, He is not God of you either, since you are a Christian. Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of Israel, and Muhammad was sent to the whole mankind according to theologists. Therefore, it would make sense from this perspective as the latter two confirm the previous messages and teachings. Furthermore, you are are sheerly playing polemics. Jews were the chosen people as stated in the Qur'an. Jews had broken their covenant and killed many of the prophets and messengers God sent according to Islam. Now if you have any knowledge of Asbab ul Nuzul or `ilm al Qur'an, then the verses you implicity summarized and speak of are evidently and known to be taken out of context. Islam, unlike Christianity and Judaism, gave freedom of rights to Christians and Jews under Muslim rule. They payed the Jizyah tax to the Islamic government and all their rights and property protected. As well, and more importantly, the Jews and Christians,"dhimmis", were absolved from participating in any war. This was not the case in Christianity and Judaism because such principles were unheard of along with being intolerable. Impossible. I have excluded of quoting many verses from the Qur'an which call for good relations with Christians and Jews along with God rewarding Christian and Jews and people of other faiths. If anyone wants them, tell me so. More importantly, through hadith literature, there are reports to substantiate this. More notably is the case with Spain. Under Ummayad and Abbasid rule (both Muslim dynasties), the Christians were allowed to enter scholarly universities and were boarded in lodges at the sole COST of the Muslim state. Now compare this with the Inquisition. No Muslim was left ALIVE! There was no mercy on the Jews either by the Christian crusaders. Jews fled to other Muslim empires for safety, particularily Turkey and Morocco. I haven't even referenced anything from Caliph Omar's time, Saladin's time, or in the Ottoman period. During these periods, there are more examples of how the principles of Islam justified tolerance towards other religions.

[quote]The Koran talks about Abraham and Ishmael, even claims they built the Ka'aba, but gives Isaac no prominence. The Bible mentions Isaac favorably and prominently more than 150 times. God very clearly says that His covenant is with Isaac, not with Ishmael (Gn 17:19-21), from whom the Arabs claim they are descended. [/quote]

First, do you want me to quote verses from the Bible to show God stating that He would bless Ishmael and make him a great nation, like you did with Isaac? This claim is wrong about how Islam views Isaac. Isaac is given prominence in the Qur'an, as he is given the honorary title of being a prophet of God. The Qur'an mandates that Muslims should not make any distinctions between prophets and messengers. But the Jews here are biased in favoring Isaac over Ishmael particularily knowing that the `Arabs come from Ishmael. In Islam, all prophets should be loved, revered, and admired. It happened to be that Ishmael and Abraham built the Kab'ah. Ishmael and Abraham are the forefathers of `Arabs. History can't change this. Muhammad descended from Abraham via Ishmael. Ishmael was an "`Arabized" `Arab. He learned the language of the region (Arabian peninsula). That is why there are many ancient tribes of `Arabs where all `Arabs trace their lineage from. Ishmael was an `Arabized `Arab, and his tribe is referred to as the Adnani tribe. This is the tribe which Muhammad descents from. Indigenous `Arabs there in the Arabian peninsula came from other tribes, and particularily, the Qahtani tribe.

[quote]The God of the Bible calls the Jews His chosen people. He loves them and gave the land of Israel to them as an heritage forever, as hundreds of verses in the Bible declare. Islam denies this basic biblical truth. The Jews are certainly not Allah's chosen people! How can Allah be the God of the Bible, yet not choose the Jews?  [/quote]

The Jews were the chosen people as mentioned in the Qur'an. They lost that position due to them abandoning their covenant with God and massacring God's prophets. Read the Qur'an please. You are copying and pasting tactic is apparently from anti-islamic sites. Don't pose this front of having any knowledge on Islam.

[quote]
In the Koran, as you must know, Allah commands Muslims, "Take not the Jews and Christians as friends" (Surah 5:51, Al Hil-ali, v. 54, Jusuf ali), so Allah is not the God of the Christians either. [/quote]

See this is what I mean by copying and pasting. Plus that is a famous verse Christian missionaries employ in a vain attempt I believe. Those verses are the reminders of historical significance. Muhammad was betrayed by many Jews and Christians. This verse was revealed in the city and outskirts of Madinah. Madinah was a city inhabited by Jews, Christians, newly converted Muslims, and hypocritesYou have to take note of the context, the asbab ul nuzul (reasons for being revealed), and whether it is a Madini/Makki verse. This is a Madinah revealed verse (For an indepth analysis, go to the Sirah, Biography of the Prophet Muhammad. The famous one is Ibn Ishaq's. It was revised by Ibn Hisham. This biography can be found in English. It is translated in beautiful and eloquent english by Martin Lings. The title is "Muhammad", by Martin Lings. Amazon or bookstores should have it). Those verses are to be seen in conjunction with these verses:

God forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for God loveth those who are just. (Quran 60:8)

God only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong. (Quran 60:9)

O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye God, if ye have faith (indeed). (Quran 5:57)

[quote]In the hadith, Muhammad himself said, "The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them" (Mishkat al Masabih Sh. M. Ashraf, 1990, pp. 147, 721, 810-11, 1130, etc.). Islam's god hates the Jews; the God of the Bible loves them as His chosen people! Allah is very clearly not Jehovah, Elohim, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the God of the Bible!  [/quote]

The last verse that I quoted is in the same chapter usediscernment quoted, but deceivingly left out the remainder of verses that followed chapter 5 of the Qur'an. Why? It is apparent as verse 57 of Chapter 5 makes note of. Muslims are allowed to befriend Christians and Jews, and atheists and others of different faiths according to the verse. Scripture signifies People of the Book (Another name for Jews and Christians due to them receiving revelations). Anyone who sees hostility towards them would not take that person as a friend. That is the logic in the verse.

Furthermore, the Qur'an states the following regarding Jews and Christians:

Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Quran 7:159)

We all know that people of Moses in this verse are Jews.

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Quran 5:47)

Not all of them are alike: Of the People of the Book are a portion that stand (For the right): They rehearse the Signs of God all night long, and they prostrate themselves in adoration. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin what is right, and forbid what is wrong; and they hasten (in emulation) in (all) good works: They are in the ranks of the righteous. (Quran 3:113-114)

And there are, certainly, among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God, in the revelation to you, and in the revelation to them, bowing in humility to God: They will not sell the Signs of God for a miserable gain! For them is a reward with their Lord, and God is swift in account. (Quran 3:199)

"Those who believe, the Jews, the Christians, and the Sabeans, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, no shall they grieve" (2: 62).

[quote]
The God of the Bible chose Jerusalem as His holy city. Forty times He calls Jerusalem "the city of David" and repeatedly He promises that the Messiah will be descended from David and will rule on David's throne in Jerusalem over the whole world (2 Chr 6:6; 33:7; 2 Sm 7:16; Ps 89:3-29, etc.). Never does the Bible (or the God of the Bible) mention Mecca or Medina, but Jerusalem is mentioned more than 800 times. Yet Allah never mentions Jerusalem. How can this be if Allah is the God of the Bible? And how can the Muslims today claim Jerusalem as a holy city of Islam, when it isn't even mentioned in the Koran? That recent claim comes from those who want to take that city from the Jews.  [/quote]

The Qur'an like the Bible mention Bakkah, Bakka, or Baca. Bakkah was another name implied for Makkah. This is what the Qur'an states:

Verily, the first House (of worship) appointed for mankind was that at Bakkah (Makkah), full of blessing, and a guidance for Al-'Alamin (the mankind and jinns). In it are manifest signs (for example), the Maqam (place) of Ibrahim (Abraham); whosoever enters it, he attains security. And Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah) to the House (Ka'bah) is a duty that mankind owes to Allah, those who can afford the expenses (for one's conveyance, provision and residence); and whoever disbelieves [i.e. denies Hajj (pilgrimage to Makkah), then he is a disbeliever of Allah], then Allah stands not in need of any of the 'Alamin (mankind and jinns). [Qur'ân 3:96-97

In the Bible:

Psalms 84 (NIV):

1 How lovely is your dwelling place, O LORD Almighty!
2 My soul yearns, even faints, for the courts of the LORD; my heart and my flesh cry out for the living God. 3 Even the sparrow has found a home, and the swallow a nest for herself, where she may have her young-- a place near your altar, O LORD Almighty, my King and my God. 4 Blessed are those who dwell in your house; they are ever praising you.
5 Blessed are those whose strength is in you, who have set their hearts on pilgrimage.
6 As they pass through the Valley of Baca, they make it a place of springs; the autumn rains also cover it with pools. 7 They go from strength to strength, till each appears before God in Zion.
8 Hear my prayer, O LORD God Almighty; listen to me, O God of Jacob.
9 Look upon our shield, O God; look with favor on your anointed one.
10 Better is one day in your courts than a thousand elsewhere; I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of the wicked.
11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield; the LORD bestows favor and honor; no good thing does he withhold from those whose walk is blameless.
12 O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you.

What is highlighted in bold falls in line with Hajar, Abraham's wife who was weeping and pleading with God due to her being left alone with Ishmael. God answered her prayers with the well of Zam-Zam.

Jerusalem is given significance in the Qur'an, particularily in terms of changing direction of face when praying, and significantly accounting for the Israa (night journey) of Muhammad from Makkah to Jerusalem: Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless (Surah Isra, verse 1).

The Mi`raj (ascent) took place from there to the heavens according to Islam. Jerusalem is the 3rd holiest city in Islam, and was the first Qiblah (direction of prayer).

[quote] That Allah has no son is further proof that He is not the God of the Bible, who definitely has a Son, as both the Old and New Testaments declare. Psalms 2 says, "Kiss the Son." Referring to the God of the Bible, Solomon says, "What is his son's name...?" (Prv 30:4). [/quote]

You are claiming proof of something which is irrelevant in the Muslims' minds. They hold the Bible to be tampered with. A lot of orientalists and atheists as well hold the same belief. More of your vain attempts. Islam wins in terms of authenticity of material passed down through generations and wins the tamper- free contest. The Qur'an has been preserved both in written form and in the mind since the time of Muhammad. The `ilm al hadith wa `ilm al rijal systems are incomparable. No other RELIGION on the face of the EARTH has devised such a scrupulous and critical analysis of religious traditions. Christianity can never make such a claim and wouldn't even dare so. That is why both the Old Testament and New Testament can't be tamper-free. The logical deduction should come to mind: Should you then believe something which has been preserved and been in its natural state due to having the above system of critical analysis, or something which has been passed down by no devised system of integral analysis?

[quote]The angel Gabriel, whom Islam claims to honor, told the virgin Mary (Islam accepts the virgin birth of Jesus), "And, behold, thou shalt...bring forth a son, and shalt call his name jesus. He shall be...called the Son of the Highest ...the Son of God...and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David..." (Lk 1:31-35). That throne is in Jerusalem, not in Mecca. [/quote]

Yes, Muslims' believe in the virgin birth, in the miracles of Jesus, but don't elevate his status nor Muhammad's status to God or sonship. Muslims` win this logical point. Sujectively analyzing the Bible and referencing it only helps alleviate your mind and insecurities and fear you have regarding Islam.

[quote] Muslims insist that the name "Allah" must be used in every language; it cannot be translated Dios in Spanish, Dieu in French, or God in English. Muslims thus treat "Allah" not as a generic word for God, but as the name of a particular god. In fact, Allah was the god of the Kuraish tribe centuries before Muhammad was born. You deny that he was the chief god in the Ka'aba, but you admit there were for centuries 360 idols in the Ka'aba and one of these was called Allah. [/quote]

Where do Muslims insist that Allah should be used in every language? This is your generalized assumption and another deceptive tactic. Each language, and the languages I speak of (English, `Arabic, French, Pashtu, Farsi,) have another name for God besides the `Arabic one (Allah):

Pashtu- Khodai

Farsi-Khudawand, Parwardeegar, Khuda (Edited by e-dog: You actually say "goda")

French- Dieu

English-God

`Arabic - Allah, Allah azza wa jal, Allah Ta`ala, etc....

Allah was the `Arabic term for God, the creator. The Quraish never had an idol named Allah. Please don't be so deceptive. Again, either you are a pathological liar, or you are intimidated by Islam. I assume both, and the latter is quite evident of your numerous post. Al-Uzza, Mana, and Al-Lat were the chief handmade dieties of the polytheist `Arabs before the advent of Islam.

[quote]
What is Allah doing in a temple among 360 idols if he is the God of the Bible, who forbids idolatry? Why does Islam keep this idol temple, and why must Muslims to this day make a pilgrimage there?  That Allah was the chief idol in the Ka'aba is documented history.  [/quote]

Documented in history? Allah was never a diety in the Kab'ah. Nice polemical absurdness. Muhammad destroyed the 360 idols in his advent and conquest of Makkah (a peaceful one). This is documented history. Look to Ibn Ishaq's Sira Rasullulah and Martin Lings' translation of it. The Kab'ah is revered because it was the House of God which Abraham and his son Ishmael built to honor God.

If you further want to pursue this matter, then what will you tell the `Arab Christians of today who still refer God as Allah:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Sou...h/BibAllah.html

[quote] Let me quote one of the greatest historians:

The desert Arab...feared and worshiped incalculable deities in stars and moons. ...Now and then he offered human sacrifice; and here and there he worshiped sacred stones. The center of this stone worship was Mecca [with] the Ka'aba and its sacred Black Stone...in its southeast corner, five feet from the ground, just right for kissing....  [/quote]

The polytheist `Arabs knew that the House of Kab'ah was built by Abraham themselves. One of the reasons why they trace their lineage to him. They added a polytheistic nature to it.

[quote] The Quraish [Muhammad's tribe controlling Mecca] paved the way for monotheism by worshiping Allah as chief god; He was presented to the Meccans as the Lord of their soil, to Whom they must pay a tithe of their crops and the first-born of their herds. The Quraish, as alleged descendants of Abraham and Ishmael, appointed the priests and guardians of the shrine and managed its revenues (Will Durant, "The Story of Civilization," IV: 160-61). [/quote]

The Meccans and the Quraish were polytheists. They drove Muhammad and his followers out of Mecca because Islam chastized them and their gods. How were the Meccans monotheists? If they were, then there was no reason to drive Muhammad out of Mecca. The Meccans and Quraish tried to persuade Muhamamd to abandon his religion. They even bribed him, making him leader of the Quraish and Mecca. Muhammad's message was to worship God who is unseen and hidden (one of God's attributes, al Baatin) only.

[quote]The Ka'aba still stands, without its idols, but with the Black Stone. The pilgrimage to the Ka'aba, to...kiss the sacred stone, to run between Safa and Marwa, and to climb Mount Arafa, was practiced by pious pagan Arabs for centuries before Muhammad. Why did your prophet keep, as part of Islam, these pagan rituals? [/quote]

The Black stone is believed to have come from the heavens (space), as a meteorite perhaps, by the Muslims. Running between Safa and Marwa is done in commeration of Hajar, Abraham's wife, of finding nourishment and water for her son Ishmael. Later, God answers her prayers. Full narratives can be found in hadith literature. This action is legislated in the Qur'an:

Behold! Safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of God. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times should compass them round, it is no sin in them. Surah 2.158

Since the House of God, Kab'ah is known by Muslims and pre-Islamic `Arabs known to have been built by Abraham and Ishmael, so is their rituals. If Muhammad copied polytheistic rituals, he and his followers would have been chastized for doing so by the polytheist Meccans when the Muslims performed the Hajj after the treaty of Hudaibiyah was in effect. Note: Mecca was under control of the polytheists at this time. No pagan Meccans are documented to have been upset at him in imitating their rituals. It gives more credence that these rituals originated with Abraham, Ishmael, and Hagar.

Speaking of Paganism and religions, I leave you with a quote from Gibbon's History of Christianity:

"If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."

[quote]You say "Islam is the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus...." Do you think Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, et al. journeyed to the idol temple, the Ka'aba, and kissed its Black Stone? [/quote]

No Muslim says the above mentioned people's religion were Islam. Islam specifies that all those prophets are Muslims (one who submits themselves to God). Nice try.

[quote]Impossible! Not one follower of the God of the Bible would ever have gone near the Ka'aba, because the God of the Bible forbids any association with idols; and you admit (as history tells us) that the Ka'aba was filled with idols before Muhammad destroyed them all. In history and the Bible, you will find no mention of Islam or any religion like it. How could you have Islam without the Koran and Muhammad?  [/quote]

How about the above mentioned Baca reference? Do you want me to get real "polemical"? There are prophecies held by Muslims talking about the advent of Islam and Muhammad in the Bible.

[quote]Muhammad started a new religion called Islam to which Arabs, Persians, Egyptians, Turks and everyone else in the region had to convert at the point of the sword. They became Muslims, and there is no way you can say that Islam was the original religion of that or any other region.  [/quote]

How about this quote: "History makes it clear that the legend of fantatical Muslims sweeping and forcing Islam over others is the most absurd myth"?- De Lacy O'Leary, Islam at the Crossroads, London, 1923, p.8.

The principle taken from the verse still stands in Islam: There is no compulsion in religion (2: 256). Do you know any juristic priniciples outlined in Islam with regards to non-Muslims? For example, how are dhimmis treated? There is no outlined legislation which tolerates non-Christians from the Bible and its sources, other than what history has shown and continues to show: KILL THE INFIDELS (MUSLIMS).

How did Christianity spread throughout history? It spread by force in my opinion.

[quote]I've been asked to explain, "The God of the Bible is love, an impossibility for Allah." If Allah is a single being, as Muslims insist, then he cannot be love in and of himself, because he had no one to love until he created others; but the God of the Bible is love in and of Himself because He is three Persons but One God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit loved and communed with one another before men or angels were created.  [/quote]

I don't blame the atheists (former Christians). I would have left Christianity if I was a Christian and believed in such logic.

[quote] then why does the Bible refer to Him more than 2,500 times with the plural Elohim (gods)? Interestingly, however, always with the plural noun there is a singular verb. One cannot escape the plurality combined with singularity repeatedly used.[/quote]

You just refuted yourself. No need for me.

[quote]The Bible teaches that God's very essence is love and says, "God is love" (1 Jn 4:8). This is not true of Allah. The Bible repeatedly speaks of God's love for man and the love we must have for Him. But love is scarcely mentioned in the Koran. Not once is "love" listed in the index of the popular Marmaduke Pickthall translation of the Koran. Of Allah's 99 attributes, love is not one. The Koran does say that Allah loves "the beneficent" (Surah 2:195), "the stedfast [and] those whose deeds are good" (Surah 3:146-48), and "those who battle for his cause" (Surah 61:4). But never does it say he loves all mankind, much less sinners; but the God of the Bible loves sinners, even those who hate Him. Allah is said to be merciful, but he does not show mercy to those who need it. The God of the Bible, however, is merciful to all, ready to forgive confessed sin. [/quote]

What about the above references in the Qur'an with regards to the Jews and Christians? What do you make of the attribute/name Ar-Rahman (The Compassionate), Ar -Rahim (The Merciful), Ar-Ra`uf (The most Kind), etc. All are manifestations of love. You like to play semantics. I can quote many references in the Qur'an to validate God's love, but this will do. To translate from `Arabic into English, the Qur'an states:

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against your souls! Despair not of the grace of God, for God forgives sins, all of them, for He is much forgiving, most merciful." (39:53)

[quote] The first of the Ten Commandments is that we are to love the God of the Bible with our whole heart; but never does the Koran say a Muslim is to love Allah. You cannot love Allah, because he is unknowable. [/quote]

God's attributes make him known. His legislation, his mandates in the Qur'an make him known to Muslims. The Qur'an at times uses rhetorical arguments to contemplate on creation. In Islam, God is self-sufficient. Islam views God as free of wants and needs, whilst Christianity is the exact opposite. Jesus depicted as God and dying for our sins exemplify this. Bringing an anthropomorphic nature to God is not a necessity to have faith in him.

[quote]
The God of the Bible can be known and repeatedly calls upon men to know Him; but the Koran says no one can know Allah because he is too great. [/quote]

God is known in Islam. The Qur'an shows God calling the believers to call upon Him for help. This is mentioned throughout the Qur'an. Also, God's attributes in Islam speak for themselves. If the nature and entity of God is known, then this would like the previous religions bring anthropomorphic interpretations of God. Hence, that is why God is so sublime, and hence "Like none unto Him" (Surah 112). No one has seen with their eyes this "perception" of God. One of the very logical points the atheists and skeptics make.

[quote]In spite of being infinite, without beginning and end, and the Creator of the universe, the biblical God reveals himself so that men can know Him. Jesus himself said, "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (Jn 17:3). Those who don't know the God of the Bible are lost eternally. No one knows Allah  [/quote]

Muslims as well believe that God is infinite. What you mentioned above is what Muslims believe. Muslims and Arab Christians know Allah. No need to continue.

[quote]  Bible is filled with prophecies of the coming of Messiah Jesus, but there is not one such prophecy in the Koran for Jesus or Muhammad. [/quote]

Read Surah (Chapter) Maryam (Mother of Jesus) in the Qur'an. It mentions the coming of Jesus. The coming of Muhammad is prophesized by Jesus in the Qur'an:

"And when Jesus son of Mary said, 'Children of Israel, I am indeed the Messenger to you, confirming the Torah that is before me, and giving good tidings of a Messenger who shall come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad" (61:6).

[quote]In fact, the Koran was written after Muhammad came, so it could not prophesy. [/quote]

The Qur'an was memorized and written down in Muhammad's time. In fact, the Gospels were written nearly a couple centuries after Jesus's time. Possible manipulations could have occurred in that span of time. Christianity unlike Islam does not have a scrupulous system of validating or invalidating texts in terms of authenticity and integrity.

[quote]but the Old Testament prophesied the coming of Jesus centuries and even thousands of years beforehand. The Jewish prophets in the Old Testament said the Messiah would be crucified and rise from the dead the third day. Jesus came at exactly the time prophesied and died for the sins of the world, as the Bible says over and over. But the Koran contradicts this and says He didn't die on the cross at all, much less for our sins. The Bible says that the penalty for sin must be paid and that God himself had to come as a man to die for our sins. Allah did not do that.  [/quote]

I can make a similar argument that the Bible prophesized not only Jesus, but Muhammad as well. Enough said there.

[quote]How does Allah save sinners? It would be unjust to forgive the guilty without the penalty being paid. Where does Allah explain the penalty? When and by whom was that penalty paid? If Allah forgives, how does he forgive? Allah simply refuses to forgive or forgives whom he will, but there is no consistent or just basis for either. No Muslim can be sure Allah will forgive him. [/quote]

Not true. The Qur'an states:

Say, "O My servants who have transgressed against your souls! Despair not of the grace of God, for God forgives sins, all of them, for He is much forgiving, most merciful." (39:53)

[quote]As a Christian I know for certain that I have been forgiven all my sins and that I have eternal life as a free gift from God through the death and resurrection of Christ and that I will be in heaven, not by my good works, but by Christ paying the penalty for my sins. Allah is merciful to those who do good. The Bible says that none do good, all have sinned, and that God saves sinners if they believe in the Christ who died for them. [/quote]

Salvation in faith was a concept in Islam long before the likes of Martin Luther of the 15th century. Salvation by faith alone was discussed by the early period scholars of Islam as well as during the period of `ilm al kalam (knowledge of speech).

[quote]You ask where Allah says in the Koran, "Let us make man in our image." I don't read Arabic so can't find that exact place but I was told by an Arabic scholar that in the Arabic that is what it says. However, the God of the Bible said, "Let us make man in our image." If Allah is the same God, why didn't he say that?  [/quote]

Not true at all. There is a weak hadith (narrations of Muhammad's sayings, expressions, actions) mentioned in the musnad (compilations) of Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal (one of the 4 schools of thought living today amongst the Muslims who has a following) that states similarily of God stating he created humans, Adam in this case, in his image. This is dismissed by the Muslims.

The general concept in Islam is that God is above and beyond His creation. He is not anthropomorphic in nature. Like none unto Him (112) and other chapters, (2), exemplify the nature of God.

Allah is the same God as to whom the Christians worship. Why don't the `Arab Christians from the above mentioned countries refer to God other than Allah in `Arabic? They know that Allah is `arabic for God. Simple.

I am upset that such hostility is thwarted on the Muslims and Islam, specifically after 9/11. My friends whom are Christian are more religious and humble than you are. They never state such rubbish. You claim to exemplify the teachings of Christ, but you contradict each of his teachings and tolerance he had for other faiths.

People like you guys are the reasons why "crusade minded" people of all faiths exploit to further this polarization that exists in our society. You are another pawn in their hands. It is obvious that you have been check-mated by them.

Edit: Numerous times. For the sake of argument and discord. I apologize if any finds the above offensive.

Posted by: Sinewy Jul 31 2006, 11:35 PM



I'm bringing the perspective of the Christian. The most common argument used in polemical debates.

In my above post, I have dispelled this ludicrous notion.

Posted by: Daniels Jul 31 2006, 11:53 PM






C'mon Kelly, post it so we can all see.

You tell us an embarrasing story and I promise I'll tell you one.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 31 2006, 11:55 PM


Sinewy just proved them wrong about Islam.

Posted by: Sanders Jul 31 2006, 11:58 PM


Thanks for the detailed post, Sinewy.

At the risk of compromising my "referee" status, I recommend all non-Muslims (like me) to read this. If everything you say in that is accurate, then the Islamic world should seriously think about hiring a good PR firm, lol.

Edit: I don't want to diss usediscernment or DayAfter for their views in any way - they are by no means 'dumb birds', in fact I believe their perceptions of Islam are fairly representative of MOST people, like me, that were brought up Christian. IMHO.

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 1 2006, 12:29 AM



Muslims have good PR people. This is documented in history. It is the powers that be that wish not to expose that side of Islam, and only expose a minority aspect of so-called Islam, "Wahabism".

Ever since the emergence of the Saudi state and Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahab's ideas being propagated from there, there has been a proliferation of portraying Islam as this barbaric and antagonistic cult.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 1 2006, 12:40 AM


Did you see that timeline? I don't know how accurate it is (there are only rough dates and lots of important stuff is missing probably) but, where does Abdul Wahab fit in?

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 1 2006, 02:07 AM



Yes, I saw it. Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab fits in the 18th century as does Saud. When the Saudi state was officially formed, the Wahabi (later termed Salafi or Salaf us Saleh to gain mass appeal) interpretation of Islam was the foundation of the law code.

The whole Wahabi ideology originates with the British pushing this form of Islam in the Arabian peninsula. The British aided Saud and Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab and their followers against the Ottoman Turks, the ruling authority of the Muslim lands.

Islam has been denounced, chastized, plagued, written off, and antagonized by many Christians throughout history. There are enough orientalists' quotes of the past and medieval quotes as well that have been levied against Islam to depict this.

From this, the British exploited the situation in the `Arabian peninsula, the Saudi royal family, and Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab. Mainstream muslims then became victims due to them losing a central authority at the end.

In the more modern era, the U.S. learned from the British by building alliances with the Saudia family as well. Also, CIA building the GID, which shipped the Wahabi `Arabs into Afghanistan and elsewhere furthered this puritanical form of Islam. The CIA/GID formation of Osama bin Laden was the newly version of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab. There are so many parallels. Both were exploited by western powers. Both have/had similar views. But Osama added another dimension of being exploited due to there not being a central authority (as was not the case for ibn `Abdul Wahab).

Also, the U.S. at the same time were benefitting from Saudi resources, particularily buying their hyrdrocarbons. Hence, this new wealth allowed the Saudis to propagate this misrepresented form of Islam further, not only in their home and nearby regions and elsewhere in the Islamic world, but here home in the U.S.A. The U.S. and others then exploited this version of Islam (as if the Saudi royal family really cares) as being barbaric, insinuating terrorism in the eyes of public, backward, etc. through al-Qaeda.

So the PR is the reason why Islam is in the state that it is. Who is the central authority for muslims as a whole? No one. That is why Islam is being exploited from all dimensions.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 1 2006, 02:14 AM


I understand a lot of what you are saying, Sinewy, but are you saying that Osama bin Laden is evil?

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 1 2006, 02:22 AM





Yes, Osama bin Laden is evil. He has cost numerous Afghans' death.

The Wahabi/Salafi ideology is so erroneous. The reason for its existence is money. The caravans of the modern era continue to be the Hajj. 2-3 million Muslims going to Hajj. The Hajj packages, hotels, food, souvenir selling and other costs benefit the kingdom greatly. As well, if you are a Saudi royal family member, you have the potential of 2-3 million Muslims to convert to the Wahabi ideology due to your published paraphernalia.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 1 2006, 02:26 AM


Do you believe he had anything to do with 9/11, like with with the help of the American government?

Posted by: Daniels Aug 1 2006, 02:27 AM







It's common knowledge that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

It is one of the great fundamental truths of religious history that the spiritual Sun rises in the East and sets in the West too.
All religions are born in the East. Christianity is often thought of as a European religion because that is where it has had its brightest effulgence. But of course it was born, like all religions, in the East.

Islam follows the same pattern of “rising in the East and setting in the West”.

The glory of Islam in its Golden Age was truly inspiring and not something that can be done justice in a forum post.

Gradually this Inspiration traveled across the spiritual sky to Europe where it gave birth to the Renaissance.

The Jewish religion, too, was born in the East but had its brightest effulgence in Greece — the West

The summary that follows is provided as an indicator of the glory of Islam in its Golden and how it went on to influence Europe. It was written by George Townshend who was summarizing some chapters of John William Draper’s “The Intellectual Development of Europe” 1853. Every student of religion can benefit greatly by this knowledge------------------------------------------"Because of the central position of the Quran, revered as a literary miracle, and because of Arabian pride in their language, which they held to be the one perfect tongue spoken by man and which is indeed regarded by scholars today as one of the greatest intellectual achievements of the race, literature in all its uses and forms was given a place of eminence. Schools and universities were founded and thronged by students of many nations. Great works were produced on all manner of subjects; great libraries were collected containing hundreds of thousands of volumes. The Caliphs ransacked the earth for knowledge, sending out expeditions of inquiry and making foreign lands and distant ages give up their lore. An army of translators was employed, rendering Greek, Egyptian, Indian and Jewish works into Arabic. Grammar and its laws were studied with great elaboration. Dictionaries, lexicons and encyclopedias on a vast scale were prepared. Paper was introduced from China; a new system of numerals (usually known as Arabic) from India. Arabic became the universal language. Caliphs would invite literary men of international repute to the court. Scholars, philosophers, poets, grammarians from diverse lands would find a meeting place in the great bookshops of the capital.

The pursuit of science, practical as well as abstract, kept pace with that of letters. In experimental science, in medicine and surgery, in chemistry and physics, in geography as well as in mathematics and astronomy, the Arabs led the world of that day. They invented a new and exquisite form of architecture, distinguished by its combination of airy grace with solid strength, and by its use of light. The influence of this style can be traced through India as far as Java, to China, to the Sudan and to the whole of Russia. They developed many branches of industry and improved methods of agriculture and horticulture. Introducing the use of the mariner’s compass their ships traversed the seas while caravans maintained a trade between all provinces of the empire, carrying produce from India and China, Turkistan and Russia, from Africa and the Malayan Archipelago.

The glory of Baghdad with its mosques and palaces, its temples of learning, its fragrant gardens, was reproduced in the lesser centers of the world of Islam: in Basra, in Bokhara, in Granada and Cordoba. It is written of the last-named city that at the height of its prosperity it contained more than 200,000 houses and more than a million inhabitants and that a man after sunset might walk in a straight line for ten miles along paved and illuminated streets—yet in Europe centuries later there was not a paved street in Paris nor a public lamp in London.

Cordoba was the first University founded in Europe, and in its halls multitudes of Christian scholars received instruction, among them being Gerbert who afterwards became Sylvester II, the brilliant Pope of Rome.

Inevitably, and in spite of the antagonism between Christendom and Islam, this advanced civilization influenced the course of life and thought in Europe. Through the Muslim outpost in Sicily and the scintillating brilliance of Muslim Spain, through the intelligence of scholars and the resources of the Muslim universities, through traders, through diplomats and travelers, through soldiers, sailors and reconquered peasants, new ideas, techniques, and attitudes passed from Islam to Western Europe.”
------------------------------------------

Posted by: Sanders Aug 1 2006, 02:40 AM


Interesting

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 1 2006, 02:47 AM




I don't mind telling everyone, I just mind getting banned .

As for everyone else, like I've always said, arguing religion is a moot point. Or as my 5 year old cousin would say, a "moo" point. I don't even know why I bother, actually I do, it stems from boredom, which is in severe excess around here.

I will say, honestly, that I am not informed enough on the subject to continue debating. Though, if you have to go to church for some reason and need a recommendation as to which anti-bacterial to use, I'm your gal.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 1 2006, 03:24 AM





Yes. I find it interesting that there are many conspiracies in this world.

The concealment of the Golden Age of Islam and our debt of gratitude to them by centuries of religious and cultural prejudice is one such conspiracy.

As John William Draper has stated in his seminal work, ‘The Intellectual Development of Europe,’ “I have to deplore the systematic manner in which the literature of Europe has contrived to put out of sight our scientific obligations to the Mohammedans. … Injustice founded on religious rancor and national conceit cannot be perpetuated forever.”

Posted by: Sanders Aug 1 2006, 03:34 AM





Anti-bacterial???

Arguing about religion is "moo", discussing it isn't. I live in "pagan" Japan, this is not much of a stretch for me...

Don't stray far, we appreciate your input

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 1 2006, 03:57 AM




He was both used as patsy and exploited like Muhammad bin `Abdul Wahab. Both were formed by some type of intelligence agencies. Both had perverse interpretations of Islam. Both appeared as literalists.

If both were legitimate in their cause, then why didn't they not oppose their own rulers? Answer is found through the misinterpretation of hadith, particularily the hadith of corrupt rulers:

"He who sees from his ruler something he dislikes, let him be patient with him, for he who splits away from the Jamaa’ah by a handspan and then dies, dies a death of Jaahiliyyah" and in a narration, "then he has thrown off the yoke of Islam from his neck." Hadith - Al-Bukhari and Muslim, and other narration by at-Tirmidhee (no. 2867) and Ahmad (4/130).

Also, their response is evasive as they want to go to the heart of corruption of Muslim lands, and that being America, is bullsh*t to me.

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 1 2006, 04:08 AM



Anti-bacterial is VERY important when being forced to attend church. I'm surprised I haven't contracted some formidable disease from the hand-shaking and hugging and complete invasion of my personal space. <_<

I am reading several books on the two religions, and this discussion progresses faster than I can read, so my input may be limited at "moo"ing at things for the time being. Or I may just interject stuff to play devil's advocate.

Why, may I ask, do you live in Japan? Just curious. How old is everyone around here anyway? I never can tell.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 1 2006, 04:18 AM



Faster? I was hopin' to get to the good parts soon - When everyone starts invading everyone else...

I always felt just a little out of place in America, and by a fluke I started studying Japanese about 15 years ago. I came for a visit and got a work offer, and stayed for a year. I went home after that but people started calling me to fly over and work again. After several years the trips got so frequent and I was so tired of flying back and forth that I just moved here. That was about 5 years ago. I don't recommend it, it's quite a culture shock. You start getting serious cravings for real Mexican food... people are nice though. BTW I'm 49.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 1 2006, 04:23 AM



Definition:

"Hadith" means "Tradition" or a saying that is attributed to Mahammad. They form something like an unofficial Koran.

Many hadiths are false and misleading.

A few are true.

Discerning the true from the false is as hard for an Islamic average Joe as it is for a US average Joe to understand 9/11.

The hadiths are used in a similar way as false flag ops and the mainstream media to control unsophisticated people.

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 1 2006, 04:39 AM



If my God loves the Jews and your God hates them, then obviously they are not the same God. Allah can mean God all it wants to, but when it comes right down to it, when you look at their characteristics, their ideas, their actions, their consequences, they are two completely different Gods. And this is fundamentally where this huge religious conflict occurs.

Both Christianity and Islam are monotheistic. So if my God loves Jews and your hates them, and there can only be one God, one of us is wrong. My God created the nation of Israel through Isaac. Yours used Ishmael.

I'm by no means trying to be disrespectful to your beliefs, and I believe you did post some excellent things that I have learned from. I am simply saying we have arrived at the core of this religious conflict.

pr0mythius, as far as Sodom and Gomorrah goes, God had to destroy that city because of the nephalim. Nephalim are the offspring of angels having intercourse with humans. I'm at work and don't have my Bible with me, but I'll post the verses when I get home, unless someone beats me to it. Therefore, people like Hercules in Greek Mythology could have really existed because of this interbreeding of sorts, so myths are perfectly plausible at times.

As for the sex part...the fun stuff ...the Bible does not discourage sex, especially with your spouse. Christians who are being legalistic take that entirely out of context. Sex, in addition to being used for procreation, was designed for humans as a means of pleasure when you are married to your right man/right woman. So if you are married, God wants you to do it . Now, as for having sex when not married, God has a problem with that, but that is no greater of a sin than lying and gossiping is. All sins are equal. Now, if you would like to here a hilarious story about how I was really humiliated by my boyfriends parents who are STRICTLY RELIGIOUS, then PM me. The Bible never said you have to be babtised, but for God's sake, don't tell a babtist that.

When I go to church with my boyfriend's family I swear I take antibacterial because everyone in that church will hug you and shake your hand and stand in your personal space, to the point that you feel like you need a shower by the time you get done. I hate going to church.

Like I said, I'm at work, but if anyone needs me, or wants to talk about whatever (I'm bored, trust me), either PM me, email me, or send me a message on myspace at www.myspace.com/imabiggoober

ok playing catch up again.

you are absolutely right .. i've also found this to be the reason for its destruction. but not as some mystical act of God(big G) but rather an attack from god(little g). yep the "angels" were mating with humans and this pissed "god" off. and as i recall "god" was actually annoyed by the noise of his creation and was tired of them and this was one instance when he was dealing with that irritation. much like the "great flood" in which "god" saved a handful of people to start things over to hopefully get it right. and "god" did so not because the world was wicked ... he just didnt like how things turned out .. so he smashed the clay .. so to speak to start over a bit. (notice the frequent use of the little g god)




yes .. all understood .. they were a very intellectual group of people. so is this to say that in matters of religion these people's word should be taken more as truth than the others? i can see the arguement for that, which is why i bring it up. but as they say .. there is a fine line between genius .. and insanity.



anti-bacteria soap weakens the immune system. be dirty .. its not bad. i shower on average about once every 3 days. basically when i feel its needed. and use PURE SOAP .. not that oil of olay type crap thats crammed with chemicals. oh and btw .. most shampoo contains human blood. i kid you not. but yea .. i only shower about every 3 days and i only get sick about once a year and it never lasts more than 2 or 3 days.



i agree .. this reminds me of one of my favorite shirts. has this cartoon like guy on the front smiling all big and it says "Wash your hands after touching christians."[laughing] so to anyone that offends .. but yea .. just reminded me of that.



none whatsoever



i totally feel the same way .. altho i'm still in america ... and in need of such a culture shock. btw i'm 24.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 1 2006, 05:24 AM



Hell no pr0mythius mah man.

I guess I'm trying to indicate that, apart from credit where its due, these people at one time had "the Force" (to use Star Wars language).

So powerful was its influence that even without its associated religion it caused the rebirth of scientific inquiry that we know as the Renaissance.

No I certainly don't want you to take their word over any other.

It was a bunch of fanatical Muslims who butchered 20,000 early Baha'is in Persia, shot our Prophet-Herald, the Bab, with a regiment of 750 rifles in 1850 and imprisoned, tortured and exiled our Founder, Baha'u'llah, to a filthy, disease infested backwater. The only thing that saved Baha'u'llah from joining the 20,000 others was the Russian ambassador who threatend great retribution on Persia if He was harmed.

That's why the Baha'i world center is in Israel. We have no business with the Israelis but during the 1800s Akka was a fortified penal colony of the Ottoman empire and Baha'u'llah was exiled there. [ It says in the Bible that "I will ...give the valley of Achor for a door of hope ...(King James Bible, Hosea 2:15 ) ]

So I most certainly don't think that present day Muslims have any spiritual advantage over any other religious group. They follow a divine Prophet, like the Christians. Their people, like the Christians, have done some horrendous, and some heroic, things over time.

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 1 2006, 06:06 AM


ahh yes .. the radicals turned to the dark side. and yes i would say that the early day arabs were very influential. most progression through the ages was usually copies of past policies and ways taken and spun with just a little something new. but as well there has always been a somewhat collective consciousness throughout the world at different times of history. such as darwin studying evolution .. there were several other people around the world at the same time that were studying the same thing, yet they had no connection to each other. this continues today. people everywhere have many great ideas about how a change in society should be implimented .. yet they never cross paths.

intellegence is a common tool used by all that are fortunate enough to posses it. as they say .. great minds think alike. people observe the happenings around them .. of present and past then logically come to conclusions of the futures.

these are esential things that have been programmed in our DNA .. these abilities of forsight. when the scriptures of any holy book say as if the words of God "i will bring you a door of hope." i feel is really saying in leahmans terms "someone will eventually figure it out."

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 1 2006, 03:32 PM


I would like everyone to note that he said I am absolutely right about something...for once .

In addition to the whole world being evil, God wiped out everyone except Noah's family in the flood so that there would be no dispute about the lineage of Jesus. Noah's son, Shem, was responsible for the Semitic tribe, which is where we get anti-semitic from. If you trace than blood line, you eventually end up with Jesus.

Actually, anti-bacterial soap does not weaken the immune system, and that is a common misconception. The bacteria actually mutate around the anti-bacterial, so it is not you who is becoming immune to the anti-bacterial, it is the bacteria that is. Then you are left with no anti-bacterial for the new mutation, which is why you get sick. It is not your immune system's fault, it is the overuse of anti-bacterial in unnecesarry intances, like in the shower, as you said with the oil of olay crap.

No, no, Christian people scare me...and that's sad, since I am one. I hate legalism. For instance, there was this guy at church one time with a bumper sticker that said, "You can't be Christian and be pro-choice." I'm a Christian and pro-choice, so he's just a pompous self-righteous @ss. But anti-bacterial is strong protection against Christian-born plagues that manifest themselves throughout pot-luck dinners, babtisms, gospel music, and vacation Bible schools across the nation. Oh, and I also figured out why old people in church have such bad joint problems...it's from the standing up, singing, sitting down, praying, standing up singing, sitting down, listening, standing up, praying routine.

Yay, I found someone who was born in my generation ! No offense, Sanders and Daniels, you are wonderful human beings too.



Kelly

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 1 2006, 05:43 PM




`Ilm al hadith is a complicated system. I would go into the technicalities if anyone wishes.

There are many hadith believed to be weak, but for the Muslims, there are many hadith to be held credible, NOT just a few. Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are the collection of hadith which are held the most trustworthy and reliable of all the hadith for the Sunni Muslims. Their authenticity are hardly questioned due to the rigorous standards of verification used by the two authors of the works, Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim. This does not exclude hadith which are also held as strong and credible by Muslims from other collection of works.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 1 2006, 06:09 PM


Daniels, you have a way of explaining things - I FINALLY understand the concept of the Hadiths.

DAT, you're cracking me up. Stop it! I'm laughing so hard about the Christian kudees thing it hurts ! (My Church was the same way !!! We even had a blue-grass band, 0ur Ministor played banjo)

Sinewy and GM10, I'm reading and rereading everything you write - us Christians never get the chance to understand what Islam is about, to hear it from the horse's mouth.

My intent was simply to try and generalize the history of the 3 religions. So far, we haven't done too well as far as the history goes, but we've struck to the heart of the issue. Didn't take long, and were all still here, and not fighting. To me that says something. It should be obvious that we are all just people. Sinewy is a Muslim. Does that mean he's a terrorist? Of course not. Do I, as an American Christian, support the occupation of Iraq? Hell no. Are there Americans that do? Yes. Are there Muslims that hate America? Yes. Do they have good reason? Yes. Are our differences being magnified to promote violence in the world? YES !!! That is the point. That is why I wanted to talk about what our different religions really say. Not much, nothing profound, just talk. If there are any Jewish lurkers out there, I want you HERE. I want to hear your viewpoint as well. We are all victims, we are all being played against each other.

I'm ready to talk about the kingdoms of David and Solomon. Those were the years that the Jewish religion really came into fruition. Those were the kingdoms that set the stage for everything that came after.

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 1 2006, 08:09 PM



Man, banjos are freakin' hot. So is anti-bacterial. I just sit there and glare are the wall in church, so people think I'm possessed and angry, and then they pray for me in the comfort of their own homes and thank God that I am not their child. Frankly, I thank God I am not their child.

When I get time this week, I will start writing what I have found out in regards to the Bible. This is an important topic and we need to keep it going in a civilized manner, unless I have offended someone in my anti-bacterial rantings. I promise I will contribute something of substance soon.

Kelly

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 1 2006, 10:13 PM


We don't follow a divine prophet. We follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) and he is nothing more than a messenger of God.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 2 2006, 12:33 AM



Good point GreatMuslim10.

I'm trying to use a language that all will readily relate to.

In my religion we refer to the Holy Prophets of God as "Manifestations of God", or "Manifestations". Problem is, unless there are other Baha'is on this board, no-one but me would know what that means.

Baha'is view all creation as occupying different "kingdoms".

The mineral kingdom has the power of cohesion.
The plant kingdom includes the power of the mineral but adds the power of augmentation -- growth.
The animal kingdom includes the powers of those kingdoms below it and adds the power of the senses.
The human kingdom has the power of cohesion, growth, the senses and adds the power of the intellect -- which gives us our great inventions and arts.
The next Kingdom is that of the holy Manifestations. We cannot know Their power because They occupy a Kingdom above us. Just as the plant cannot comprehend the power of the animal, the Manifestations of God are exalted beyond our comprehension.

To a Baha'i, Adam, Noah, Moses, Krishna, Christ, Buddha, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah, all belong to that Plane of existence. All are exalted, holy, venerated and cherished for Their great sacrifices in bringing to humankind the life-giving teachings of God.

There is an interesting pattern to these Holy Manifestations.

If we look closely we can see that the Jews accept Adam, and Noah (more or less) but refuse to acknowledge Christ.

Christians accept Moses, Noah and Adam (again, more or less) but refuse to acknowledge Muhammad.

The Muslims accept Christ, Moses, Noah and Adam but refuse to accept the Bab and Baha'u'llah -- the Manifestations of the Baha'i Faith. In fact some fanatical ones executed the Bab, imprisoned Baha'u'llah, butchered over 20,000 gentle Baha'is and to this day, in Iran at least, continue to persecute the Baha'is (a couple of hundred Baha'is were killed in the 1980s for being Baha'is).

Interesting how the cycles of history operate.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 2 2006, 01:12 AM



No offense taken.

I'm just as delighted when I recognize someone on this board of my own vintage. No offense to you young-uns.

You younsters are the engine room of the ship of humanity. We older rudders play our part too though we sometimes look back with fondness to when we were the engines.

And I am so very pleased that there are dynamic young people like you Kelly, Pr0mythius, Bahreem, etc. who are sane, sensible and keen truthers.

Go get 'em you young ones.

Posted by: water_bender Aug 2 2006, 01:52 AM



this is incorrect. sodom and gomorrah were destroyed for thier severe imorality. for thier perversion. lot was allowed to escape so long as he didnt look back... the flood was the intended destruction of the nephalim. though it didnt work 100% some nephalim survived, as goliath is an example of such a person. you are right about the nephalim being half angel, they arose from the watchers. the watchers were a choir of angels sent to watch over and safe guard the humans. but they fell in love with the 'daughters of man' and procreated with them. (see some of us are part alien afterall )

n Genesis 18, God informs Abraham that He plans to destroy the city of Sodom because of its gross immorality. Abraham pleads with God not to destroy Sodom, and God agrees that He would not destroy the city if there were 50 righteous people in it, then 45, then 30, then 20, or even 10 righteous people. The Lord's two angels only find one righteous person living in Sodom, Abraham's nephew Lot. Consequently, God follows through with His plans to destroy the city.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 2 2006, 04:33 AM


As for the story of the Prophet Lot (pbuh) and the city of Sodom in Islam, here it is:
Lot was a prophet listed in the Qur'an and known as Lut in Arabic.


According to Islamic tradition, Lot lived in Ur and was a nephew of Abraham (Arabic:Ibrahim). He was commanded by God to go to the land of Sodom and Gomorra (Arabic:Sadum) where the people were well-known for their indulgence in homosexual lifestyles. When he arrived there, the people ridiculed his teachings and ignored him.

God's repeated offer of forgiveness was communicated by Lot but each time it fell on deaf ears.

And Lot, when he said to his tribe: "Do you commit an obscenity not perpetrated before you by anyone in all the worlds? You come with lust to men instead of women. You are indeed a depraved tribe." The only answer of his tribe was to say: "Expel them from your city! They are people who keep themselves pure!" So We rescued him and his family-except for his wife. She was one of those who stayed behind. We rained down a rain upon them. See the final fate of the evildoers! (Qur'an, 7:80-84)
Lot, who was a patient, determined, and courageous servant, manifested his joyous faith in and respect for God. His tribe's mockery and attacks only reinforced his enthusiasm and determination. Like all of the other prophets, he continued to command what is good and forbid what is evil, thus scrupulously fulfilling his God-given duty.

Of all beings, do you lie with males, leaving the wives God has created for you? You are a people who have overstepped the limits." They said: "Lot, if you do not desist, you will be expelled." He said: "I am someone who detests the deed you perpetrate. (Qur'an, 26:165)
The Biblical stories of Lot's incestuous relationship with his daughters are considered a perversion and blasphemous in Islam, as such an action would remove a man from being a prophet of God in the Islamic view.

The Qur'an tells that Lot was willing to offer his daughters — or, as some scholars suggest, young women of his tribe — so that people would turn away from the prohibited act of homosexuality.

His tribe came running to him excitedly — they were long used to committing evil acts. He said: "My people, here are my daughters. They are purer for you. So fear God and do not shame me with my guests. Is there not one rightly-guided man among you?" They said: "You know we have no claim on your daughters. You know very well what we want." (Qur'an, 11:78-79)
But this, too, was of little importance to the people. Then finally the angels disguised as two men came to Lot. They gave him the news of the imminent destruction of the city's people, and God ordered the prophet to take away his selected people and leave his wife, and not to look back upon the city.

We also sent Lot: He said to his people: Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. And his people gave no answer but this: they said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" (Qur'an 7:80-82)
Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, And leave those whom God has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing (all limits)! They said: "If thou desist not, O Lot! thou wilt assuredly be cast out!" He said: "I do detest your doings:" "O my Lord! deliver me and my family from such things as they do!" So We delivered him and his family,- all Except an old woman who lingered behind. But the rest We destroyed utterly. We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)! Verily in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe. And verily thy Lord is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful. (Qur'an 26:165-175)
Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! But his people gave no other answer but this: They said, "Drive out the followers of Lut from your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" But We saved him and his family, except his wife; her We destined to be of those who lagged behind. And We rained down on them a shower (of brimstone): and evil was the shower on those who were admonished (but heeded not)! (Qur'an 27:55-58)
And (remember) Lot: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway? - and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of God if thou tellest the truth. (Qur'an 29:28-29)

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 2 2006, 05:45 AM




ok start from the beginning ... perhaps this is reason that the bible gives for the flood .. at least one reason .. i dont recall. but i for one dont believe that noah's family was the only one to survive.(notice how the bible always goes back to incest? hmmmm) i have reason to believe that the "great flood" only occurred on one side of the world. not like the seas just suddenly rose 5 miles .. thats pretty much impossible. so .. in saying that the earth was only flooded on one side .. cant be certain there were not other people that survived.

the soap thing .. sounds logical .. i just know that people being obsessed about germs and cleanliness is leading to thier demise. i'm not a filthy person .. but i dont use any of that anti-bacteria junk. when i drop food on the floor .. i pick it up and eat it(just blow on it .. it'll be ok). and something tells me i have a better chance of surviving some biological attack that your average "OMG I MUST WASH MY HANDS 47 TIMES A DAY." who knows .. i could have a bacteria in me that would kick ebolas ass!

and yes ... i hate that connection with christian people .. the whole pro-life crap .. as if that just MUST be if you're christian. i have a bumper sticker on my car that says "friends dont let friends vote republican" .. first time my dad saw it, he said "so what you for abortion now?" i need to find another bumpersticker to compliment that one "friends dont let friends vote democrat" then lets see what he has to say.

oh .. question .. why the hell does every church pot luck dinner have to have deviled eggs? i've never seen one without them. and why call them deviled eggs? and since they're called that .. why do church people love them so much?





thank you -bows-altho i'm not quite that young ... 24 ... so does that mean i could be like a host in the dinning hall of the ship?


bless you for using the world alien. nice to have someone else around here not afraid to use the word.
(side note ... from now on when referring to the god of the bible .. i'm going to use the name Anu .. when referring to the creator of the universe i will use the term God ... so yea .. this way i can keep it straight)
I think there was both going on. but when you are talking righteous people ... this would say that Anu examined the people .. and i imagine they were just materialistic people like you would find in any city. the one part of scripture that deals with this that i cant get over .. is the part where it talks about the "angels" being at lots house .. i think it was .. and it says that the men of the town surrounded the house as started yelling "bring out your visitors so that we can have sex with them." [laugh] first off .. if the city is really that bad ... why would they tell them to come out .. why didnt they just force thier way in? personally i think that line is crap .. but its in there .. i forget exactly where .. but its there.

but yes one reason i think that Anu told abraham and lot n them not to look back as they left was because they wouldnt be able to comprehend what was going on. i do NOT think that the woman turned to salt when she looked back. good bedtime story twist .. but yea .. not likely.

oh one more thing on this .. the nephalim still live today. does anyone recall the 11 foot man that soldiers encountered in the mountains of afghanistan? soldiers entered this cave that had many bones scattered at the entrance .. upon entering they found this giant man with massive strength .. the man was "unpleased" with the soldiers presence .. and began to hurl rocks at them .. but not just any rocks .. ones weighing close to a metric ton. a soldier involved said it took nearly a full minute of gunfire from every troop to take the man down. the giants body smelled of a sulfuric odor.(lines up with the biblical description of this race of beings)here's a small article about a tomb that was found for one of these creatures .. with a pic at the bottom of a man holding the turban of the giant:http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2005/11/07.html
there are probably more of these ... question is .. where are they? i have my theories .. but nothing concrete.

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 2 2006, 06:33 AM



Isn't there like a 10 second rule regarding dropped food? I don't know, the floor has never bothered me all too much. I cultured the bacteria off of my hand in lab yesterday, and turns out, I have penicillium...so if you contract a bacterial infection, I suppose I could rub my hand on it and your problems would be solved ...but preferably not in provocative areas...

I'm not sure about the deviled eggs tradition there, but I guarantee you I have learned to make some excellent deviled eggs in my time. I avoid pot lucks at all costs.

And 24 isn't that old at all.

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 2 2006, 06:41 AM



i believe its a 5 second rule ... but the guys on myth busters disproved that theory .. wiether its 1 second or 10 .. same amount of bacteria was found on the food after i think it was a 4 hour time period.

and no 24 is not old ... but they say you're only as old as you feel .. in which case i'm 64.

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 2 2006, 07:36 AM

just thought i'd throw something out there .. see what thoughts anyone might have.

lucid dreaming .... a dream state in which one is conscious enough to recognize that one is in the dream state and which stays in one's memory. anyone ever read much into this? over the past 3-4 years i've been learning quite a bit about it. since i was around 12 years old i was able to do this. at the time i had no clue what lucid dreaming was. i just did it. i could realize when i was dreaming and control certain parts of dream. for instance.

at first when i found i could realize when i was dreaming ... i would attempt to fly .. so i would flap my arms like a bird and after several tries i was able to levitate ... but at first i could never go above the tree line. as if that was my ceiling or something. well ... long story short. ever since then i would train myself to do different things in my dreams. now i've developed what could only be described as super powers. i can change the scenary .. the people there .. and can fly like superman .. even into space .. but i cant seem to get past the moon. something keeps stopping me. kind of like that playstation game ATV offroad .. where if you go too far off the map it BLASTS you back like several hundred yards.

anyone else have experience with such things?

Posted by: Daniels Aug 2 2006, 10:53 AM


[QUOTE=pr0mythius @ Aug 2 2006, 07:36 AM]anyone else have experience with such things?

Yes, I have experienced something like that. I find it amuzing that things can be so meaningful in the dream state yet when I analyze it with the still-conscious part of my mind it sounds ludicrous. As soon as that happens I surface above the dream level and the dream itself seems to go from 3d to 2d, a bit like the opening sequence of "Carnivale" where the camera would zoom in on a card and as we got close to the card the pictures on the card would become 3d and we would enter 'the card'.

Here's a few snippets from the Baha'i Writings regarding dreams:

"...thy spirit, having transcended the limitations of sleep and having stripped itself of all earthly attachment, hath, by the act of God, been made to traverse a realm which lieth hidden in the innermost reality of this world."

"Indeed, O Brother, if we ponder each created thing, we shall witness a myriad perfect wisdoms and learn a myriad new and wondrous truths. One of the created phenomena is the dream. Behold how many secrets are deposited therein, how many wisdoms treasured up, how many worlds concealed."

"Now there are many wisdoms to ponder in the dream, which none but the people of this Valley[THE VALLEY OF WONDERMENT (the 6th of 7 Valleys)] can comprehend in their true elements."

Posted by: Sanders Aug 2 2006, 12:57 PM



I thought it was 3 seconds

Deviled eggs ... hmmmm never thought of that Must have something to do with the illuminati


I'm just gonna bulldozer forward - try to make my way across a few more centuries -

So Saul was the first king of Isreal (before that they had "judges", in fact there's the book of Judges, this is a time when the Israelites were battling the Canaanites), I'm skipping a whole lot of stuff probably, like Samson (guy who derived his power from his long hair, of Samson and Delilah fame), and Ruth, so then they elect their first king, who was Saul, Saul's the guy who screwed up by not killing all the Amalekites to the last cow. His weakness isn't forgiven, and Samuel, the head prophet of the day, tells him his days are numbered:

"I shall not return to you for you have rejected the word of the Lord and the Lord has rejected you from being King over Israel."

And Samuel turned to go and he [Saul] seized the hem of his robe and it tore. And Samuel said to him, "The Lord has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today and has given it your fellow who is better than you.'" (1 Samuel 15:26-28)

So Samuel goes looking for the next king and finds himself in Bethlehem talking to Jesse - Jesse has 7 sons and Samuel looks them all over and says, not bad, but do you have any others? To which Jesse replies, well there's the little tyke tending sheep right now... So Samuel has a look at little David and says "That's the one, there's our new king!".

The Israelites are constantly battling the Philistines (among other Arab tribes) who live in what is now Gaza (a strip of land along the sea in the south of Israel ... In fact, the term "Palestinian" is derived from "Philistine" and was first used by the Romans to denote the Jews of "Palestine" to insult them - some claim it is incorrect to call the Palestinian people Palestinian... a fine point though). Anyway, the Philistines were not descended from Ishmael and so were not strictly 'Arab', they have nothing to do with today's Palestinians and for all I can tell are an extinct people - but they were a formidable foe that caused the Israelites a lot of problems. One of their warriors was Goliath.

Goliath is a giant, and is standing out in front of the Philistine lines shouting insults at the Israelites, and no one is brave enough to take him on. Enter David. David is carrying food for the troops (still too young to be in the army) and he volunteers to take on Goliath - Samuel (the prophet) says "Go and may God be with you" and David slays him with a slingshot and cuts of his head... the Philistines go running.

The moral of the story is, supposedly, "Not by strength, not by might, but with My spirit," says the Lord of Hosts." (Zechariah 4:6)

Soon Saul is killed in battle and David, insanely popular by now, becomes king.

David conquers the last pockets of resistance, Gaza, and Jeruselem, which he makes his Capitol.

I ran across an interesting fact about Jeruselem. In the last 3000 years, this piece of real estate has been conquered or destroyed 36 times (!). Eeeeeverybody wants Jeruselem.

David seduces a woman he spys, Bathsheba, and gets into some trouble over it (she's not exactly single at the time) - which is sort of complicated and I don't remember the whole story, but anyway David is punished by their first child dying, then Bathsheba bears him another son, Solomon. David dies, Solomon becomes king at 12 yo.

Solomon is the "wisest of all men", builds Solomon's temple where the Arc of the Conenant is housed (the Arc holds the actual 10 commandments), and reigns for 40 years.

Regarding the reign of Solomon,


God is pissed at Solomon for being so extravagant, and promises to take it out on his son, Rehoboam, after he becomes king and Solomon is dead.

What basically happens is, the 10 norther tribes start complaining about the high taxes being extorted to build up Jeruselem. Rehoboam says ''screw you" and the 10 tribes secede, calling themselves "Israel". Jeruselem and the lower 2 tribes come to be known as "Judah".

The 10 northern tribes then go through a long period of moral decline and bad rulers, and fall prey to corruption and idolatry (placing golden calves in their new temples etc.). The old-testament God of course will have none of that, so in come the Assyrians from the north who conquer the northern tribes one by one and displace them, scattering the 10 tribes all over Assyria - these people are "assymilated" and become the "10 lost tribes of Israel".

We're now about 500 years before Christ.

Corrections, additions, commentary welcome.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 2 2006, 01:01 PM

Oh yeah, lucid dreaming. I used to do that all the time as a kid. I would be in 2 states of consciousness at once, dreaming about one thing and doing something completely different at the same time while talking nonsense to my mom. She was certain I was crazy, I'd remember it all later. I remember it felt reeeaaally good. Bizarre - hadn't thought of that in years.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 2 2006, 02:00 PM

Are David and Solomon regarded as prophets of God in Judaism and Christianity?

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 2 2006, 02:13 PM

Here is the story of Prophet David according to the Islam:

David (Arabic: ?????, D?w?d), is one of the prophets of Islam, to whom the Psalms (Arabic: Zabur) were revealed by God. Muslims reject the Biblical portrayal of David as an adulterer and murderer. This is based on the Islamic belief in the righteousness of prophets.

Goliath appears in the Qur'an as Jalut, which is Arabic for Goliath; and like Judaism, Goliath's slayer is David. In Chapter 2, verse 251, the text quotes the one God Himself: "And David slew Goliath, and God gave him kingdom and wisdom, and taught him of what He pleased." David was in Saul's (Arabic:Talut's) army.
In Chapter 5, verse 78, God says: "Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus, son of Mary; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit."

In Chapter 21, verses 78-80, God says: "And David and Solomon when they gave judgment concerning the field when the people's sheep pastured therein by night, and We were bearers of witness to their judgment. So We made Solomon to understand it; and to each one We gave wisdom and knowledge; and We made the mountains, and the birds to celebrate Our praise with David; and We were the doers. And We taught him the making of coats of mail for you, that they might protect you in your wars; will you then be grateful? "

Ibn Jarir recorded that Ibn Mas`ud said: "Grapes which had grown and their bunches were spoiled by the sheep. David ruled that the owner of the grapes should keep the sheep. Solomon (Arabic: Sulayman) said, "Not like this, O Prophet of God!" David said, "How then?" Solomon said: "Give the grapes to the owner of the sheep and let him tend them until they grow back as they were, and give the sheep to the owner of the grapes and let him benefit from them until the grapes have grown back as they were. Then the grapes should be given back to their owner, and the sheep should be given back to their owner."

When he recited the Psalms in a beautiful manner, the birds would stop and hover in the air, and would repeat after him, and the mountains would respond and echo his words. The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) passed by Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari while he was reciting Qur'an at night, and he had a very beautiful voice, he stopped and listened to his recitation, and said: "This man has been given one of the wind instruments (nice voices) of the family of David." He said: "O Messenger of God, if I had known that you were listening, I would have done my best for you."

In Chapter 34, verses 10-11, God says: "And certainly We gave to David excellence from Us: O mountains! sing praises with him, and the birds; and We made the iron pliant to him, Saying: Make ample (coats of mail), and assign a time to the making of coats of mail and do good; surely I am seeing what you do."

In Chapter 38, verses 17-26, God says: "And remember Our servant David, the possessor of power; surely he was frequent in returning (to God). Surely We made the mountains to sing the glory (of God) in unison with him at the evening and the sunrise, And We strengthened his kingdom and We gave him wisdom and a clear judgment. And has there come to you the story of the litigants, when they made an entry into the private chamber by ascending over the walls? When they entered in upon David and he was frightened at them, they said: Fear not; two litigants, of whom one has acted wrongfully towards the other, therefore decide between us with justice, and do not act unjustly, and guide us to the right way. Surely this is my brother; he has ninety-nine ewes and I have a single ewe; but he said: Make it over to me, and he has prevailed against me in discourse. He said: Surely he has been unjust to you in demanding your ewe (to add) to his own ewes; and most surely most of the partners act wrongfully towards one another, save those who believe and do good, and very few are they; and David was sure that We had tried him, so he sought the protection of his Lord and he fell down bowing and turned time after time (to Him). Therefore We rectified for him this, and most surely he had a nearness to Us and an excellent resort. o David ! surely We have made you a ruler in the land; so judge between men with justice and do not follow desire, lest it should lead you astray from the path of God; (as for) those who go astray from the path of God, they shall surely have a severe punishment because they forgot the day of reckoning."