Posted by: Hound Aug 2 2006, 02:19 PM

Sanders:

I'm sure you are aware of the fact that the story of David and Goliath is a myth?

However, I'm not sure that you are aware that the stories about David and Solomon are likewise mythical. Most people and def. the xtians take them as history. We have this problem earlier mentioned, that xtians believe in religious myths as historical reality. This creates a great deal of confusion.

David/Solomon and the Jewish kingdom are complete fantasies. This supposed "empire" left no monuments, no artifacts. Neither David or Solomon are mentioned in the huge corpus of state records of either Egypt or Assyria.

From this we can safely conclude that these biblical stories are myths with no basis in historical reality.

Posted by: GreatMuslim1 Aug 2 2006, 02:21 PM

Here is the story of Prophet Solomon according to Islam:
In the Qur'an, Solomon (Arabic: Sulayman) is a son of the Prophet David (Arabic: Dawud). He is told to have learned much from his father, and subsequently made a prophet by God and given power over all creatures, including the jinns. Ruling a large kingdom that extended south into Yemen, he was known throughout the lands for his wisdom and fair judgements.

Solomon is said to have been given control over various elements, such as the wind and transportation. In addition he had excellent relations with the Jinn as well as animals. Thus the Quran says,

And to Solomon (We made) the Wind (obedient): Its early morning (stride) was a month's (journey), and its evening (stride) was a month's (journey); and We made a Font of molten brass to flow for him; and there were Jinns that worked in front of him, by the leave of his Lord, and if any of them turned aside from our command, We made him taste of the Penalty of the Blazing Fire. [Quran 34:12]

And before Solomon were marshalled his hosts,- of Jinns and men and birds, and they were all kept in order and ranks. [Quran 27:17]

And Solomon was accordingly grateful of God, he says

"O ye people! We have been taught the speech of birds, and on us has been bestowed (a little) of all things: this is indeed Grace manifest (from God)." [Quran 27:16]
A well-known story of Solomon involves his interactions with the Queen of Sheba, Bilqis (possibly Makeda in English). Solomon comes to know about the ruler through a talking hoopoe who states:

"I found (there) a woman ruling over them and provided with every requisite; and she has a magnificent throne.[Quran 27:23]

According to the story, she was a wise ruler, but her people worshipped the sun. Solomon invites her to submit to "God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful". Upon receiving such a letter she requests advise from her chiefs, who are most willing to make war. The Queen, however, responds:

"Kings, when they enter a country, despoil it, and make the noblest of its people its meanest thus do they behave. But I am going to send him a present, and (wait) to see with what (answer) return (my) ambassadors." [Quran 27:34-5]

And so the Queen sends gifts to Solomon. These gifts offend Solomon, who is satisfied with that which God has granted him, and he begins to make preparations for war. Meanwhile the envoys of the Queen return with the gifts, and the Queen decides to personally visit Solomon. At this point Solomon decides to test the Queen. He orders a Jinn to bring the Queen's throne from her palace before she reaches Solomon's court. The Jinn executes the command "within the twinkling of an eye". Upon her arrival, the Queen is asked to identify the throne. The Queen not only identifies the throne but also states that she had known the power of Solomon and his God in advance and had decided to submit to God. Solomon, however, demonstrates to her another miracle of God:

She was asked to enter the lofty Palace: but when she saw it, she thought it was a lake of water, and she (tucked up her skirts), uncovering her legs. He [Solomon] said: "This is but a palace paved smooth with slabs of glass (and the water in underneath the glass)." She said: "O my Lord! I have indeed wronged my soul: I do (now) submit (in Islam), with Solomon, to the Lord of the Worlds." [Quran 27:44]

It is said that the Queen married Solomon thereafter.

According to the Quran, the death of Solomon was a lesson to be learned,

Then, when We decreed (Solomon's) death, nothing showed them his death except a little worm of the earth, which kept (slowly) gnawing away at his staff: so when he fell down, the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task). [Quran 34:14]

When Solomon was to die, he stood up in prayer holding his cane. There he silently passed away, but, by God's will, did not fall. He remained in this position, and everyone including the Jinns thought that he was still alive. Finally God ordered a termite to weaken the cane so that the body of Solomon fell. It was thereafter believed that the Jinn (along with all humans) did not know everything and only God had knowledge of all.

In the Qur'an a reference is also made to the writings of Solomon, the so called Book(s) of Wisdom. Jesus knew these writing according 5:110: "I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave"

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 2 2006, 11:55 PM



I beg to differ.

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 3 2006, 06:26 AM



As do I.

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 3 2006, 08:52 AM



and i differ to beg
arent there monuments and artifacts of colomon's rule in africa? where the gold mines were thought to be? and then there's the stoy of the knights templar that was looking for solomon's treasure. -shrug- i'm a lil rusty on this part ... and i just woke up.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 3 2006, 09:09 AM



Haha

I figure there's a seed of truth in most of it, with about 80% made up or exagerated stuff. That's my guess. But it doesn't make any of it any the less relevant - because of all the people that have believed in it.




Supposedly the Queen of Sheba was a descendent of Ishmael

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 3 2006, 09:04 PM

Back to the story of Joseph, I believe the Bible runs against the historical evidence.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 3 2006, 10:15 PM



What do you mean? How?

Posted by: free_me Aug 3 2006, 11:07 PM



Myths. Bayblon and Jerusalem are myths, too.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 4 2006, 01:51 AM

I kind of think we've talked about this Myth vs. Fact thing enough - obviously most of what is in the Bible or the Qu'ran is unsupportable from archaeological evidence. People have the right to believe or reject these stories just as much as they are due the right to believe in whatever version of whatever religion they want - the point here is to follow the time lines of the 3 religions to try to shed some light on the present conflicts. If we argue circularly about whether or not the stories are true or myths everytime we enter a new era we'll never get anywhere. If that's what everyone wants to do, that's fine too, but I was hoping to get to the real meat and potatoes stuff - the Crusades, the spread of Islam (was it a violent or peaceful revolution?), the stunting of growth in the Arab world under the Ottomans, the real reasons behind WWI, the founding of Israel. Terrorism in north Africa and the nationalizing of the oil in the Middle East are also connected.

I thought it should be approached chronologically, mainly because I worried if it could be done civilly or not - but I'm not worried about that now. Maybe this should be more of a free for all - ? That way we can start getting GreatMuslim and Sinewy's takes on the history of Islam, the spead of Christianity is no less interesting and DAT or others might have some input...

One thing that ought to be looked into first though, is why the Jewish nation died? The stronghold of the Jewish faith was not in the northern 10 tribes, but in Judah (the southern 2 tribes and Jeruselem). The Babylonians came and conquered these people, but only carried a small portion (the leaders supposedly) off into slavery in Babylon (I know some will say this too is Myth - doesn't matter, it is the account that Jews believe, that makes it relevant). Was this the deathknell of ancient Israel?
After the Babylonians the Greeks, then the Romans occupied the same real estate. Was it the Romans that finally but an end to the first Israel experiment?

Things I think about... just trying to keep things interesting.

PS I may be gone for 2 weeks - have to travel for work, don't know if the hotel will have ADSL or not. Cheers to all

Posted by: usediscernment Aug 4 2006, 03:16 AM



You will notice that it was the God of Israel who told jeremiah (one of God prophets) to go and tell the children of Israel that it would be God that would bring desolation to Israel because of their evil doings and evil ways. And that it would be God that brings in Nebuchadrezzar to rule over the children of Israel for 70 yrs.

Jeremiah, reproving the Jews' disobedience to the prophets

1 The word that came to Jeremiah concerning all the people of Judah in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that was the first year of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon; 2 The which Jeremiah the prophet spake unto all the people of Judah, and to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, 3 From the thirteenth year of Josiah the son of Amon king of Judah, even unto this day, that is the three and twentieth year, the word of the LORD hath come unto me, and I have spoken unto you, rising early and speaking; but ye have not hearkened. 4 And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear. 5 They said, Turn ye again now every one from his evil way, and from the evil of your doings, and dwell in the land that the LORD hath given unto you and to your fathers for ever and ever: 6 And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt. 7 Yet ye have not hearkened unto me, saith the LORD; that ye might provoke me to anger with the works of your hands to your own hurt.

foretells the seventy years' captivity

8 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts; Because ye have not heard my words, 9 Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. 10 Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. 11 And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. 12 And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations. 13 And I will bring upon that land all my words which I have pronounced against it, even all that is written in this book, which Jeremiah hath prophesied against all the nations. 14 For many nations and great kings shall serve themselves of them also: and I will recompense them according to their deeds, and according to the works of their own hands.

Jer 25:1-14 (KJV)

Posted by: free_me Aug 4 2006, 03:45 AM



Has even come up with a list of relevant, generally accepted sources from which to draw upon for purposes of this discussion? What's myth? What's fact? How does one decide?



But again... if we don't know what the truth of the story is, how can such be pondered or discussed?

Posted by: Daniels Aug 4 2006, 04:09 AM

"...empty thyself of all learning, that thou mayest partake of My knowledge..."


Baha'i Writings

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 4 2006, 04:39 AM




true that ... i cant remember who said it ... some ancient indian dude i think ...

"how can i fill your cup with knowledge when it is already full?"

ok now ... how bout an experiment .... tell a small story to someone about a time you went fishing and caught big ass bass ... or something like that. have then tell it to someone else .. then they tell it and so on til it goes thru like 20 people. and just see how accurate the story is once it gets to the end of the line.

i know you people have doing this sorta thing before .. like password. now .. imagine telling that story once a week to comeone over the course of about 50 years ... then see how accurate it is to the first story.

really ... the important thing about any book such as the bible or the Qu'ran ... if should be all about what was put into it. its supposed to be about what you get outta it. they both have good lesson that make a lot of sense and can be applied in life without going all religious.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 4 2006, 07:35 AM

Okay, who's next to discuss about? We've just finished Prophet Solomon, who should we discuss about now? I'm thinking Prophet Elijah.

Posted by: Chris Sarns Aug 4 2006, 10:29 AM

OK I've been gone for a while and I've been trying to catch up. A lot to read.

I am fascinated with the history from the three religons viewpoints.

Thank you GM10 for your great posts. Keep 'em commin'

Sanders: Keep 'em on track

I think the question here is " how the f*ck did we get into this mess" (from a historical point of view)

There is no God but God

We may give him/her diffrent names and diffrent atributes but one God is still one God

I think 'The great spirit' is better than God or Alah. But that's just my opinion.

Let's try to keep it to history as seen from diffrent viewpoints....

Posted by: Sanders Aug 4 2006, 04:31 PM



That's the beauty of it. This is stuff people take on faith. All we have to do is try to understand what constitutes the basis of that faith. Once we get into the crusades there's more archeological evidence around (like castles all over the mid-east), but we don't have to prove anything, proving or debunking is not the goal. Understanding our world is the goal, is it not? Or in the words of ChrisSarns,





A Muslim proposing talking about Elijah ... you rock dude. Be my guest, I know nothing about him.

Here's a shocker for you all, I read today that there are very few Jews on the planet that actually derive from the middle east. Nearly all are descendents of Kazar or Spain - only a few % that can trace their roots to the Israelites. Sort of controversial stuff, but I'm not gonna hold anything back, and Islam and Christianity are probably gonna get their share of blows too before this thread dies.

I hearby declare that the waning of ancient Israel (diaspora, Greek and Roman occupation), the Gospel (birth of Christianity), and the birth of Islam are all open topics. Oh, and Elijah too.

I checked into my hotel and it turns out I do have ADSL. I'll be pretty busy but I'll be able to participate.

Thanks everyone for hanging in there.

Posted by: : pr0mythius Aug 4 2006, 06:44 PM

the story of elijah is an interesting one. he was said to live during the reign of jezzebell... an evil woman that worshiped Baal. i forget her husband's name .... but he was portrayed as a lazy one .. that was like "do whatever jezzebell." she had many priests that performed rituals. and i believe the story goes that there was a kind of competition between the queen and elijah to prove which god was real .. the one of elijah .. or of jezzebell .. it was said that jezzebell's priests went nutz trying to get Baal to show up ... cutting themselves .. making sacrifices. but nothing happened .... the elijah made a small alter ... and surrounded it with a small trench filled with water. he began to pray and a fireball fell from the sky and engulfed his alter. thus proving his god was real.

at least thats how i remember the story. its been a while.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 4 2006, 10:16 PM

The story of Prophet Elijah in Islam:

Elijah (Arabic:Ilyas) is a prophet of Islam mentioned in the Qur'an.

Elijah was descended from Aaron, and was a prophet sent to the Israelites.

After the death of Solomon, his kingdom fell apart. This allowed the influence of Satan to become widespread among the people of Israel. The religious people were mocked. The ruler of Samaria killed a large number of learned people. When the evil reached a boiling point, God sent Elijah to reform mankind during the reign of King Ahab of Israel. He tried his best to save the people from polytheism. He forbade them to worship the Tyrian Baal. He advised the people to ward off evil and worship the One God.

However his efforts bore no fruit. He suddenly appeared before the king and foretold that a severe drought and famine would overtake the kingdom. Elijah added that the Tyrian Baal would be powerless to avert it. The people paid no heed to his warnings and did not mend their ways. The prophecy of Elijah turned out to be true and whole of the kingdom experienced famine.

The people began to starve. After three years Elijah prayed to God to show mercy to the famine stricken people. They acknowledged the authority of God and felt regret. Soon after the rain ended the drought, God lifted His curses. After this Elijah was directed by God to call upon Elisha to be his successor. Elijah did this and disappeared mysteriously.

I guess that means Elisha is next.

Posted by: : GreatMuslim10 Aug 4 2006, 10:36 PM

Wait a minute, I realized we skipped Prophets Job and Jethro:

Here is the story of Prophet Job:

"That was Our proof which We gave Abraham against his people. We raise whom We will in degrees. Certainly your Lord is All-Wise, All Knowing. And We bestowed upon him Isaac and Job, each of them We guided and before him, We guided Noah, and among his progeny David, Solomon, Job, Joseph, Moses, and Aaron. Thus do We reward the good doers. (6:83-84)

God the Almighty praised His worshipper Job in His Glorious Quran:
Truly! We found him patient. How excellent a slave! Verily, he was ever oft returning in repentance to Us! (38:44)

Job (pbuh) was repentant, remembering God with thankfulness, patience, and steadfastness. This was the cause of his rescue and the secret of God's praising him.

A group of angels were discussing God's other human creatures, how those who were humble earned God's pleasure, while those who were arrogant incurred His displeasure. One of the angels remarked: "The best creature on earth today is Job, a man of noble character who displays great patience and always remembers his Generous Lord. He is an excellent model for the worshippers of God. In return, his Lord has blessed him with a long life and plenty of servants, as well as the needy and the poor share in his good fortune; he feeds and clothes the poor and buys slaves to set them free. He makes those who receive his charity feel as if they are favoring him so kind and gentle is he."

Satan overhearing all of this, became annoyed. He planned to tempt Job to corruption and disbelief, so he hastened to him. He tried to distract Job from his prayers by whispering him about the good things in life but Job was a true believer and would not let evil thoughts tempt him. This disturbed Satan even more; thus he began to hate Job even more.

Satan complained to God about Job. He said that although he was continuously glorifying God he was not doing so out of his sincerity but to satisfy God so that his wealth should not be taken away. It was all a show, all out of greed. "If You remove his wealth then You will find that his tongue will no longer mention Your name and his praying will stop."

God told Satan that Job was one of His most sincere devotees. He did not worship Him because of the favors; his worship stemmed from his heart and had nothing to do with material things. But to prove to Satan the depth of Job's sincerity and patience, God allowed him to do whatever he and his helpers wished with Job's wealth.

Satan was very happy. He gathered his helpers and set about destroying Job's cattle, servants and farms until he was left with no possessions. Rubbing his hands in glee, Satan appeared before Job in the guise of a wise old man and said to him: "All your wealth is lost, some people say that it is because you gave too much charity and that you are wasting your time with your continuous prayers to God. Others say that God has brought this upon you in order to please your enemies. If God had the capacity to prevent harm, then He would have protected your wealth."

True to his belief, Job replied: "What God has taken away from me belongs to Him. I was only its trustee for awhile. He gives to whom He wills and withholds from whom He wills." With these words, Job again prostrated to his Lord.

When Satan saw this, he felt frustrated, so he again addressed God: "I have stripped Job of all his possessions, but he still remains grateful to You. However he is only hiding his disappointment, for he places great store by his many children. The real test of a parent is through his children. You will see how Job will reject You."

God granted Satan authority but warned him that it would not reduce Job' faith in His Lord nor his patience.

Satan again gathered his helpers and set about his evil deeds. He shook the fountain of the house in which Job's children were living and sent the building crashing, killing all of them. Then he went to Job disguised as a man who had come to sympathize with him. In a comforting tone he said to Job: "The circumstances under which your children died were sad. Surely, your Lord is not rewarding you properly for all your prayers." Having said this, Satan waited anxiously hoping Job was now ready to reject God.

But again Job disappointed him by replying: "God sometimes gives and sometimes takes. He is sometimes pleased and sometimes displeased with our deeds. Whether a thing is beneficial or harmful to me, I will remain firm in my belief and remain thankful to my Creator." Then Job prostrated to his Lord. At this Satan was extremely vexed.

Satan called on God. "O my Lord, Job's wealth is gone, his children are dead, and he is still healthy in body, and as long as he enjoys good health he will continue to worship You in the hope of regaining his wealth and producing more children. Grant me authority over his body so that I may weaken it. He will surely neglect worshipping You an will thus become disobedient."

God wanted to teach Satan a lesson that Job was a devoted servant of his Lord so He granted Satan his 3rd request but placed a condition: "I give you authority over his body but not over his soul, intellect or heart, for in these places reside the knowledge of Me and My religion."

Armed with this new authority, Satan began to take revenge on Job's body and filled it with disease until it was reduced to mere skin and bone and he suffered severe pain. But through all the suffering Job remained strong in his faith, patiently bearing all the hardships without complaining. God's righteous servant did not despair or turn to others for help but remained hopeful of God's mercy. Even close relatives and friends deserted him. Only his kind, loving wife stayed with him. In his hour of need, she showered her kindness on him and cared for him. She remained his sole companion and comforter through the many years of suffering.

Ibn Asaker narrated: "Job was a man having much wealth of all kinds; beats, slaves, sheep, vast lands of Haran and many children. All those favors were taken from him and he was physically afflicted as well. Never a single organ was sound except his heart and tongue, with both of which he glorified God, the Almighty all the time day and night. His disease lasted for a long time until his visitors felt disgusted with him. His friends kept away from him and people abstained from visiting him. No one felt sympathy for him except his wife. She took good care of him, knowing his former charity and pity for her."

Therefore Satan became desperate. He consulted his helpers, but they could not advise him. They asked : "How is it that your cleverness cannot work against Job, yet you succeeded in misleading Adam the father of man, out of Paradise?"

Satan went to Job's wife in the form of a man. "Where is your husband?" he asked her.

She pointed to an almost lifeless form crumbled on the bed and said: "There he is, suspended between life and death."

Satan reminded her of the days, when Job had good health, wealth and children. Suddenly, the painful memory of years of hardship overcame her, and she burst into tears. She said to Job: "How long are you going to bear this torture from our Lord? Are we to remain without wealth, children or friends forever? Why don't you call upon God to remove this suffering?"

Job sighed, and in a soft voice replied : "Satan must have whispered to you and made you dissatisfied. Tell me how long did I enjoy good health and riches?"

She replied: "80 years."

Then Job replied: "How long am I suffering like this?"

She said: "7 years."

Job then told her: "In that case I am ashamed to call on my Lord to remove the hardship, for I have not suffered longer than the years of good health and plenty. It seems your faith has weakened and you are dissatisfied with the fate of God. If I ever regain health, I swear I will punish you with a hundred strokes! From this day onward, I forbid myself to eat or drink anything by your hand. Leave me alone and let my Lord do with me as He pleases."

Crying bitterly and with a heavy heart, she had no choice but to leave him and seek shelter elsewhere. In this helpless sate, Job turned to God, not to complain but to seek His mercy: "Verily! distress has seized me and You are the Most Merciful of all those who show mercy." So We answered his call, and we removed the distress that was on him, and We restored his family to him (that he had lost), and the like thereof along with them as a mercy from Ourselves and a Reminder for all who worship Us." (21:83-84)

Almighty God also instructed: "Remember Our slave Job, when he invoked His Lord saying: "Verily! Satan has touched me with distress (by losing my health) and torment (by losing my wealth)!" God said to him: "Strike the ground with your foot: This is a spring of water to wash in and cool and a refreshing drink." And We gave him back his family, and along with them the like thereof as a Mercy from Us, and a reminder for those who understand. (38:41-43)

Job obeyed and almost immediately his good health was restored. Meanwhile, his faithful wife could not longer bear to be parted from her husband and returned to him to beg his forgiveness, desiring to serve him. On entering her house, she was amazed at the sudden change: Job was again healthy! She embraced him and thanked God for His mercy.

Job was not worried, for he had taken an oath to punish her with a hundred strokes if he had regained health but he had no desire to hurt her. He knew if he did not fulfill the oath, he would be guilty of breaking a promise to God. Therefore in His wisdom and mercy, God came to the assistance of His faithful servant and advised him: "take in your hand a bundle of thin grass and strike therewith your wife, and break not your oath." Truly! We found him patient. How excellent a slave! Verily, he was ever oft returning in repentance to Us!" (38:44)

Abu Hurairah (may God be pleased with him) narrated that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: "While Job was naked, taking a bath, a swarm of gold locusts fell on him, and he started collecting them in his garment. His Lord called him: "O Job! Have I not made you too rich to need what you see?" He said: "Yes, My Lord! But I cannot shun Your Blessings." (Al Bukhari)

And now Prophet Jethro:

Jethro (Arabic: Shoaib) was a direct descendant of Abraham as well as Moses' father-in-law.

Muslims believe that Jethro was appointed by God to be a prophet to the people who lived east of Mount Sinai, the people of Midyan and Ayka. The people of these lands were said to be especially notorious for cheating others through dishonest weights and measures. Jethro warned them against such actions but they did not listen. Subsequently, both lands were destroyed by the wrath of God.

Jethro was said to have lived to pleasure those around him.

His desire was to discover the ishabid of the Matwa Mountains which were said to give powerful visions and keep people in a constant state of pleasure.

Here is a more detailed story:

The people of Madyan were Arabs who lived in the country of Ma'an, part of which today is greater Syria. They were a greedy people who did not believe that God existed and who led wicked lives. They gave short measure, praised their goods beyond their worth, and hid their defects. They lied to their customers, thereby cheating them.

God sent His Prophet Jethro (pbuh) armed with many miracles. Jethro preached to them, begging them to be mindful of God's favors and warning them of the consequences of their evil ways, but they only mocked him. Jethro remained calm as he reminded them of his kinship to them and that what he was doing was not for his personal gain.

They seized the belongings of Jethro and his followers, then drove them out of the city. The Messenger turned to his Lord for help, and his plea was answered. God sent down on them scorching heat and they suffered terribly. On seeing a cloud gathering in the sky, they thought it would bring cool, refreshing rain, and rushed outside in the hope of enjoying the rainfall. Instead the cloud burst, hurling thunderbolts and fire. They heard a thunderous sound from above which caused the earth under their feet to tremble. The evil doers perished in this state of horror.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 4 2006, 11:42 PM



I have been to the Cave of Elijah on Mt Carmel in the Holy Land.

Mt Carmel is also where Jesus gave the Sermon on the Mount.

It's also the Baha'i administrative center...



This is the Center of the Study of Texts and Seats of the universal house of Justice.

Posted by: Faatima Aug 4 2006, 11:54 PM




Chris,
When talking about God you have to be careful. Alot of people say that the God of Christianity and Judiasm and Islam are the same God. But the God referred to in these seperate religion has different characteristics(if thats the right word) and associations. So its not really the same God...if you get what I'm saying?

I would also like to know how we got into such a crappy situation with eachother?

Oh and by the way I'm Muslim....
...if the name didn't already give it away

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 5 2006, 12:09 AM

The God of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is the same, but we each have different concepts about Him. The different concepts don't actually change Him into a different god for each, but yes, we do have different characteristics of Him.

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 5 2006, 12:25 AM

Salam
GreatMuslim10,
But how can God be the same if to each religion the characteristics of God differ?
If in Islam God says he has no son or family or partners then in Christianity God is viewed to some Christians as having as son(Isa) and a holy spirit. To me it just doen't add up..

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 5 2006, 12:30 AM



No, you don't understand. God in Judaism and God in Islam is the same in terms of not having any family members or partners. But in Christianity, the "father", if you will, is the God that we all believe in. We don't believe God is a father, but they believe He is. So the father God that Christians worship is the same as the One God that Jews and Muslims worship, except that we don't believe He has a son or is part of a trinity.

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 5 2006, 12:52 AM



But then that makes it weird. Because the fact is in a Muslims mind God has no son. But in a Christians mind the fact is that he does.

And having a son is not a characteristic.

Wouldn't it be kind of going against God for me to except that he has a son when he clearly says he does not.

Though there may be similarities in the God of Islam, Christ. and Judiasm it doesn't mean there the same. That we don't believe he has a son or is apart of a trinity matters alot. I couldn't let a Christian lead me in prayer(not salat just any random prayer) and ask for forgiveness or mercy from God because what God are they referring to: the one with a son or the one without?

And some Christains believe Jesus is their Lord and savior. Surely Muslims and Jews do not.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 5 2006, 01:26 AM

I understand what you are saying, but God having a son is just a different concept. It doesn't change Him into a different god. It's still the same God, just with a son for Christians. Yeah, it does seem weird. However, you have to remember that we all worship the God of Abraham. We all have intentions to worship the God of Abraham, but the Christians do it wrong (that's what we believe) in believing that He also has a son. As for believing Jesus is their lord, the Christians that say that believe that Jesus was both son of God and God himself. It's really complicated to explain and you shouldn't worry too much about it, especially since you don't believe in it.

Posted by: arommel88 Aug 5 2006, 02:56 AM




A reasonable reponse!

Now I am a Christian. Now Judasim is easy to point out as being in error. I never know how they missed their own prophesy other than Paul saying they will. The first one explains when Jeruselam will be rebuilt and when the Messiah will be cut off. days are often used as years in prophesy. Eziekiel did the same before Jerusalem fell. The 20th year of Artaxerxes and 69 weeks of years turns out to be around 30-40 AD. So if is was not Christ then is was another guy around 30-40 AD. Also in their own Talmud they record some odd things with the Temple sacrifice starting 30 AD.

Daniel 9

24: Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25: Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26: And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined


Nehe 2

1: And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been beforetime sad in his presence.
2: Wherefore the king said unto me, Why is thy countenance sad, seeing thou art not sick? this is nothing else but sorrow of heart. Then I was very sore afraid,
3: And said unto the king, Let the king live for ever: why should not my countenance be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers' sepulchres, lieth waste, and the gates thereof are consumed with fire?
4: Then the king said unto me, For what dost thou make request? So I prayed to the God of heaven.
5: And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favour in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchres, that I may build it.
6: And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time.


"Forty years before the Temple was destroyed (30 A.D.) the chosen lot was not picked with the right hand, nor did the crimson stripe turn white, nor did the westernmost light burn; and the doors of the Temple’s Holy Place swung open by themselves, until Rabbi Yochanon ben Zakkai spoke saying: 'O most Holy Place, why have you become disturbed? I know full well that your destiny will be destruction, for the prophet Zechariah ben Iddo has already spoken regarding you saying: 'Open thy doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour the cedars' (Zech. 11:1).' Talmud Bavli, Yoma

Posted by: arommel88 Aug 5 2006, 03:17 AM



Unfortunately the details are everything. Christianity is all about being justified by Christ and that no human deed is worthy to be accepted by God without understanding you are lost without it.

Isaiah 64
6: But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.


That is very different than Islam. It is also very different from so called "Christian" Crusaders as well. I do not know how such a people ever got war mongering from Christianity.

Matt 5

9: Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

So anything not done in love to an arab or muslim is not from Christ and I am very sorry for how they have been selected for persecution.

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 5 2006, 03:32 AM



Go to creationist sites. They will show you their "empirical" evidence.

Don't make a generalization and deduce logic that way. Examine all perspectives.

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 5 2006, 03:51 AM

arommell88:



That is very different than Islam. It is also very different from so called "Christian" Crusaders as well. I do not know how such a people ever got war mongering from Christianity.


Are you discussing the concept of original sin, or are you trying to state that believing in Christ will validate the deeds that you do? And then how does it differ from Islam?

I will give a response.

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 5 2006, 04:07 AM



The Bible mentions the ruler of Egypt during Joseph's time and Moses's time as Pharaoh (Fir`awn in `Arabic). The Qur'an designates Pharaoh only for the ruler of Egypt during Moses's time. During Joseph's time, the ruler was referred to as King (Malik in `Arabic).

According to Egyptology and heiroglyphics the term Pharaoh was first used in the 18th dynasty of the New Kingdom Period. The term Pharaoh wasn't used during Joseph's time according to these records.

Posted by: arommel88 Aug 5 2006, 04:07 AM



Many people think the Trinity is confusing. I am not even sure about the Trinity myself because it may not be by number. It is easy to understand that God can have a Son if you understand the fallacy of "one" so often applied.
One God is one what? One man is one what? A man has two eyes. I have two hands. If one hand is cut off am I am man still? Do I write this post or did a computer? I did, but why? It was my will , the computer does my will. Jesus was the Son of God because he could only do God's will. One inherently has many except that which makes the one as we focus on it. The one car has doors, seats, wheels etc but the car is one. The Holy Spirit, The Son, The Father all have the will that is one. Every one thing has many, the important thing is what that one is and it is "will" for lack of anything else.
When God said that I AM that I AM that is all we can ever know about God because with only one there is no comparison. What I do know is that I cannot think of anyone thing without thinking of its many things. However we humans made in the image of God consider the "will". That is why we have concepts such as accident and mistake. In a car accident , I may be the driver, it may be my car but was I evil? No, because the will is our primacy and it is not my will to have an accident. I have responsibility because it was my will to drive.

Posted by: arommel88 Aug 5 2006, 04:14 AM



Believing in Christ will not give you licence. To willfully sin is to not to love Christ. Christ said if you love me you will follow me.
As to original sin man is sinful by nature and that is why we must be set free. As a slave to sin we could never buy our way out so it was Christ that freed us.

John 14

14: If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15: If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Being "good" and going to heaven and being "bad and going to hell is really not a Christian concept though in popular culture it is.

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 5 2006, 04:19 AM



Thanks I know the concept of "original sin". It was reference to those quotes in your previous post.

Now you mention this:



Then this:



Those are apparent contradictions, because the first shows the salvation by faith is not enough, but the the latter quote assumes that salvation can be achieved by faith alone, regardless of deeds because the "modern thought" of what you explained is erroneous.

Christianity and Islam both agree that salvation can be achieved by faith. It is not entirely based on deeds.

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 5 2006, 04:36 AM




I respect and sincerely admire Christianity and other faiths. So please don't feel offended, as this is a "religion thread."


Yes. Indeed that is the general view. Some questions are what about infants that die at birth? Evil? What about the people before Jesus Christ's time?

Now this is the view of Islam. They believe in the concept of Fitrah. Fitrah is the natural, pure state of people. Muhammad mentioned that this primordial nature of humans is prevalent in all, but it is the extraneous factors that will eventually raise him or her to other faiths and ideologies. The Qur'an mentions, "Wa Khalaqal Insaana Da`iifa". This translates into "And We (God) created humankind in a "weak" state. Weak state meaning that man is falliable and sinful, but he does not have this original sin in him due to him being born in a state of fitrah.

Posted by: arommel88 Aug 5 2006, 04:53 AM



I think the key was that the sacrifice of Christ makes this possible. There was the ignorance of the law and faith for the gentiles and the process of Atonement and faith for the Jews who had the law before Christ came.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 6 2006, 04:33 AM

So what's next?

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 6 2006, 08:44 PM

:ph43r: Well Sanders said it was kind of a free for all... sooo any ideas and things on peoples minds=then put fingers to keyboard!

Posted by: Daniels Aug 6 2006, 10:18 PM

Within the context of a free for all, I would pose the following query:

If the Messiah (Jews), or the Spirit of Truth (the Return of Christ), or the Mihdi (Shi'iah Islam) or the Fifth Imam (Sunni),

were to appear before humankind...

would any of those people of those religions recognize Him?

Consider the Jews. The Jews were ardently praying for the Merciful One to send the promised Messiah. However, when His Holiness Jesus announced His mission, they had Him put to death. The very Individual they were beseeching the One True God to send to them!

They didn't recognize Jesus.

My God! They didn't recognize the very One that they had been beseeching God to send to them.

Doesn't this strike anyone as being odd??

What makes us think that we will do any better than the devout Jews? In fact, the most devout Jews (as I understand it) were the Pharisees. Jesus actually singles these people out for condemnation. Yet, they were the most devout and, no doubt, esteemed themselves as those most qualified to recongnize the Messiah when He should arrive!!

But they failed to recognize Jesus. He appeared before them, walked amongst them, preached to them but they couldn't see Him!! All they could see was but a man like themselves.

I wonder if my brothers and sisters in the Truth movement have any comments on this?

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 6 2006, 11:21 PM

I would just like to say that Al-Mahdi is a whole different being from Prophet Jesus Christ (PBUH). If you are wondering if we are going to recognize him, I advise you to visit this web site: http://www.jesuswillreturn.com

Posted by: Daniels Aug 7 2006, 12:15 AM



GreatMuslim10, Who are you awaiting in your religion?

Just so I can understand the Promised One from your perspective.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 7 2006, 01:32 AM

That site that you posted is very beautiful. It has been well illustrated and is abviously a work of love.

My point about not recognizing the One sent by God is based mainly on the experience of the Jews:

"They had not perceived the inner significances of the Holy Bible. They voiced their objections, saying, "We are expecting Christ, but His coming is conditioned upon certain fulfillments and prophetic announcements.

Among the signs of His appearance is one that He shall come from an unknown place, whereas now this claimant of Messiahship has come from Nazareth. We know his home, and we are acquainted with his mother.

"Second, one of the signs or Messianic conditions is that His scepter would be an iron rod, and this Christ has not even a wooden staff.

"Third, He was to be seated upon the throne of David, whereas this Messianic king is in the utmost state of poverty and has not even a mat.

"Fourth, He was to conquer the East and the West. This person has not even conquered a village. How can he be the Messiah?

"Fifth, He was to promulgate the laws of the Bible. This one has not only failed to promulgate the laws of the Bible, but he has broken the law of the sabbath.

"Sixth, the Messiah was to gather together all the Jews who were scattered in Palestine and restore them to honor and prestige, but this one has degraded the Jews instead of uplifting them.

"Seventh, during His sovereignty even the animals were to enjoy blessings and comfort, for according to the prophetic texts, He should establish peace to such a universal extent that the eagle and quail would live together, the lion and deer would feed in the same meadow, the wolf and lamb would lie down in the same pasture. In the human kingdom warfare was to cease entirely; spears would be turned into pruning hooks and swords into plowshares. Now we see in the day of this would-be Messiah such injustice prevails that even he himself is sacrificed. How could he be the promised Christ?"

And so they spoke infamous words regarding Him."

Thus, the devout Jews failed to recognize Christ and to this day, still await His appearance.

Would the people of today do any better?

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 7 2006, 02:10 AM



Muslims are awaiting for both Al-Mahdi and Prophet Jesus Christ (pbuh). Al-Mahdi will come first and will unite Muslims. Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will come second and will unite Muslims and Christians together and will kill the Anti-Christ.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 7 2006, 05:37 AM



GreatMuslim10, thank you for clarifying that point for me.

Did you see my post just above yours refering to the signs that the Jews were looking for in the Messiah?

They used the very signs that would accompany the Messiah to deny Him when he appeared.

Do you think that's possible to happen again in our time? Would YOU recognize Him if you saw Him?

For that matter, would anyone else like to comment on that point?

Posted by: Sanders Aug 7 2006, 07:49 PM

The exchange between GM10 and Daniels was very illuminating. Thanks for posting. I am currently working 14 hour days - this isn't the kind of thread you can just read a couple of recent posts and fluff off some half baked comment - I can't be here much for the next week. And if the thread dies a natural death it's no big deal. But I have a feeling that this thread adds balance to the LC forum - I want it to continue.

I want to know if, when, and why the jews in ancient Israel left/died out. I don't know. I used to believe (because many people propogate this myth) that they were all carted off to Babylon - but that seems not to be the case. And the Babylonian exile (for the small percentage of Israelites population-wise that were enslaved there) wasn't that long, historically speaking. After 50 or 100 years (?) they and their anscestors were free to return to Israel but very few did. What I have been able to discern is that the final end to ancient Israel came at the hands of the Romans. But I know nothing about it and am too busy to research it right now - if someone can clear this up we are into A.D. - where it gets fairly interesting fairly quick...

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 7 2006, 10:03 PM



I think the reason is because God's curse was upon them after they killed so many of His prophets and messengers. The last one God sent for them was Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and even then they wanted to crucify him, but God lifted him to Heaven before they could and instead they crucified Judas, (or someone else who deceived God but most likely Judas) whom God made look like Jesus. God said in the Qur'an that His curse was upon the Jews for what they did and history sort of proves that they been having a lot of bad things happening to them and they were dying out.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 7 2006, 10:06 PM



Yeah I read it. I do believe I will recognize the Messiah Jesus Christ (pbuh). I don't think anyone will deny him except for the non Abrahamic religions. That is atheists, pagans, and etc. Some of them too will believe in him, but none of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims will deny him.

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 7 2006, 11:19 PM

Their are descriptions given of the anti- Christ one being that he will have a single eye that he is able to see out of. There are others but I can't remember at the moment, but I'll do some research. In my opinion though the Jews(maybe not all of them) won't recognize the Messiah(Jesus) because they rejected Jesus the first time around. It is said that even some Muslims who have access to the descriptions of the anti- Christ will fall into his trap and be mislead to follow him.
We'll just have to wait and see how things play themselves out...

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 7 2006, 11:46 PM

The Messiah that Jews believe that didn't come yet and is not Jesus is actually the Anti-Christ. This "Messiah" is supposedly going to establish the official Jewish state. Jews don't realize that he is going to be the Anti-Christ. They don't believe in an Anti-Christ like Christians and Muslims do. A hadith states that he will be followed by 70,000 Jews. Christians and Muslims will suffer and Al-Mahdi won't be able to kill him nor stop him, but Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will descend from Heaven and kill him and wipe off all Zionists from the Earth and establish peace. The problem is that Christians want to be the Jews' friends and not the Musims. Christians are taught to be Zionists by the Bible. Jews don't even like Christians and can't wait for their Messiah (Anti-Christ) to kill them all. Read this:

"Islaam, Christianity, and Judaism all believe in the coming of the leader of the great and final battle whom they all call the Messiah.

The Jews are looking forward to his coming because they claim he will bring about God's kingdom on Earth, after the establishment of a Jewish nation in Palestine. They await a leader from among the children of Prophet David, peace be upon him. According to Imaam Ibnul Qayyim, when this leader "moves his lips in prayers all the nations will die." They claim that he is the promised Messiah, and call him the 'Prince of Peace'. Believing that he will make all mankind subservient to the state of Israel, they are preparing for his arrival by gathering in Palestine. According to their beliefs, he will come to rule the Earth and reside in Jerusalem, which he will take as his capital. The person they are waiting for is the Dajjal, whom the Christians call the Antichrist. This is why the majority of the Dajjal's followers will be from the Jews.

The Christians and the Muslims agree that this promised Messiah leader is Jesus who will descend from Heaven and return to Earth to lead the great battle. This battle will be led by Jesus against the Anti-Christ and his followers.

The Christians believe that before the second coming of Jesus, those who believe in Jesus as the son of God will experience 'the rapture' when they will be raised up into the heavens to meet their Lord, and thereby will be saved from the Antichrist. They base their belief on the corrupted text of the Bible: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ [i.e., the dead Christians] will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). The rest of the people will be left to perish with the king of darkness, son of Satan.

"Then the king [Anti-Christ] shall do according to his own will: He shall exalt and magnify himself above every god, shall speak blasphemies against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the wrath has been accomplished; for what has been determined shall be done" (Daniel 11:36).

The Christians believe that the Armageddon will take place in a small valley called Meggido in Palestine. They claim that the battle which will be led by Jesus against the Dajjal and his followers, will be crowned by victory for the Christians and the complete destruction of the non-Christians who will all drown in a lake of fire burning with brimstone. This is based on the corrupted text of the Bible: "Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, 'Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses, and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people both free and slave, both small and great.' And I saw the beast, the kings of the Earth, and their armies gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse against his army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast, and those who worshipped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh." (Revelation 19:17-21) "


The Christians should unite with Muslims. Just look at userdiscrement who supports the Israel state. It's not his fault. It is the Bible's teaching. He is only trying to be a good Christian. Even though he knows that Jews are treating Palestinians unjustly, it doesn't matter to him because he wants Jesus to come sooner.