Posted by: Merrika Aug 8 2006, 01:14 AM



Here is an interesting site
http://www.shalomjerusalem.com/jerusalem/jerusalem3.htm
It explains briefly the Jews and their occupation of Jerusalem

It's interesting but a tad biased i think

Posted by: Daniels Aug 8 2006, 03:11 AM



Faatimah, I think you hit the nail right on the head!

Using the Jews as an example, we can see that it is often the case that THE VERY PIOUS, THE VERY KNOWLEDGABLE, THE VERY DEVOUT, who miss the Promised One when He comes to us.

With the Jews, Christ -- the Messiah, walked amonst them but they hunted Him down and crucified Him (or at least intended to, in your belief).

For this despicable act of Martyring the Messiah, God allowed the Roman General Titus to destroy Jerusalem and banish the Jews from the holy land.

My point is that very few Jews recognized Christ as the Messiah, so what makes us think that WE will recognize Him?

GreatMuslim10, Faatimah, Bahreem; you all appear to be very devout, very knowledgeable and sincere Muslims. But how can you be sure that you wont fall into the same trap that the Jews did when Christ came the first time?

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 8 2006, 03:19 AM



I know that I'll recognize Christ the second time he comes because of his character, because of his actions, and because of the events. His character will be that of a saint, he will kill the Anti-Christ and help Muslims and Christians join together to be true Muslims, and during this whole time, we'll realize by ahadith and signs of Judgement Day that he corresponds to them and that the prophecies have all been fulfilled with his emergence and through his actions. Once he'll kill the Anti-Christ, you'll realize he had to have been the Messiah. The Jews never actually knew who exactly he was before he came, but we do. We know so much about him because he is described thoroughly in the Qur'an and in many ahadith and his name is mentioned explicitly, whereas the Jews never knew what his name would be. We know what he looks like, whereas the Jews never knew what he'll look like. It'll be very obvious at the time of his emergence and many people will realize this. There is even a hadith that states that not one of the People of Book (Jews and Christians) that will not believe in him and in Islam before Prophet Jesus (pbuh) dies after his second coming. God willing, you'll see and I hope soon.

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 8 2006, 06:05 AM




ok .. you say you know what he looks like ... what if when he comes back .. he looks different ... what if he comes back a woman? would you accept it ... would you believe it was him? because saying hew ould come back exactly as he was too begin ... to me .. thats what you would call "unlikely." i mean are you to think he'll come back through a rip in the sky? or that he will be born again in the new generation?

Posted by: Daniels Aug 8 2006, 02:06 PM



I very much hope that you do recognize Him GreatMuslim10.

It would seem, however, that history is filled with humankind NOT recognizing Him.

Not only did the Jews fail to see in Christ the Messiah that they had so ardently prayed for, but the Christians failed to recognize in Mahammad the Christ that they desperately sought.

It might be advantageous for us to reflect on why these otherwise sincere and devout people failed to see God's holy Prophet when He was right there in front of them.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 8 2006, 02:18 PM



Yes indeed Sanders. The Roman general Titus was raised up and destroyed Jerusalem, razing it to the ground in 70AD. He exiled the Jews under threat of death from the holy land. They were allowed to return under the Edict of Tolleration of 1844AD.

Outwardly this was because the Jews revolted and he came to put down the revolt.

Spiritually it is looked at as God's retribution on the Jews for having slain His divine Prophet.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 8 2006, 03:02 PM

After Christ was crucified the early Christians were persecuted, both by the Jewish hierarchy and the Roman population.

Christ was viewed, if He was viewed at all, as a person of little note. There is, apparently, no record of Him by the Roman chroniclers.

Contrast that with today! Many a king will loudly proclaim his allegiance to His Cause. But it's a whole heap easier today to declare oneself a Christian than it was back when one had to endure the vilest persecutions on ones road to God.

In around 300 AD emporer Constantine declared himself to be a Christian and ended the state-sanctioned persecutions of the Christians.

Constantine moved the capital from Rome to the new city of Constantinople. Eventually Constantinople became the Eastern Roman empire and I do believe they were termed Byzantines.

Constantinople became a center of excellence. The city was glorious, lavish and opulent. It had gold roofed palaces and bejewelled churches. It's architecture was impressive. Defended by "Greek Fire" (the formula of which is still unknown) it remained invoilable until the fratricidal sacking by the Fourth Crusade in 1204 AD. Though Pope Innocent III showed disembled regret, he delighted in this violation of the stronghold of Byzantine Christianity, and was probably its architect, as now the Roman church was the main branch. Pope Innocent III is described in John William Draper's "The Intellectual Development of Europe" as a "great criminal" because of his many evil doings, one of which was the unspeakably despicable and lewd sacking of Constantinople.
----------------------

By around 500 AD the spark had gone out of the Christian religion.
People now viewed Christianity as an easy path to power. Those lacking in leadership qualities, in wisdom and learning, sought the only route to dominance available to them: outward piety and a speed rise up the religious ranks.

All sorts of corruptions invaded the church; simony, trade in (fake) holy relics, murder, institutionalized extortion, spying under the guise of auricular confession, etc.

At around this time, Europe sunk into the superstitious Dark Ages, not to resurface for a full thousand years.

After every winter we have spring. And after the winter period engulfed Christianity, Muhammad brought the springtime of Islam to humankind.

The Muslims were often invited to take over cities because the residents knew that they would clear out the corruptions of the Christian clergy.

In Alexandria they were invited to conquer by members of the Coptic Christian sect.

In Spain they were aided by disaffected Spaniards after the daughter of one notable was raped by a Spanish prince ( I do believe that at this time they were known as Goths, and they thought of themselves as Roman).

For a summary of Islam we need look no further than George Townshend's summary of John William Draper's "The Intellectual Development of Europe" (1853). This is pure poetry:

“Because of the central position of the Quran, revered as a literary miracle, and because of Arabian pride in their language, which they held to be the one perfect tongue spoken by man and which is indeed regarded by scholars today as one of the greatest intellectual achievements of the race, literature in all its uses and forms was given a place of eminence. Schools and universities were founded and thronged by students of many nations. Great works were produced on all manner of subjects; great libraries were collected containing hundreds of thousands of volumes. The Caliphs ransacked the earth for knowledge, sending out expeditions of inquiry and making foreign lands and distant ages give up their lore. An army of translators was employed, rendering Greek, Egyptian, Indian and Jewish works into Arabic. Grammar and its laws were studied with great elaboration. Dictionaries, lexicons and encyclopedias on a vast scale were prepared. Paper was introduced from China; a new system of numerals (usually known as Arabic) from India. Arabic became the universal language. Caliphs would invite literary men of international repute to the court. Scholars, philosophers, poets, grammarians from diverse lands would find a meeting place in the great bookshops of the capital.

The pursuit of science, practical as well as abstract, kept pace with that of letters. In experimental science, in medicine and surgery, in chemistry and physics, in geography as well as in mathematics and astronomy, the Arabs led the world of that day. They invented a new and exquisite form of architecture, distinguished by its combination of airy grace with solid strength, and by its use of light. The influence of this style can be traced through India as far as Java, to China, to the Sudan and to the whole of Russia. They developed many branches of industry and improved methods of agriculture and horticulture. Introducing the use of the mariner’s compass their ships traversed the seas while caravans maintained a trade between all provinces of the empire, carrying produce from India and China, Turkistan and Russia, from Africa and the Malayan Archipelago.

The glory of Baghdad with its mosques and palaces, its temples of learning, its fragrant gardens, was reproduced in the lesser centers of the world of Islam: in Basra, in Bokhara, in Granada and Cordoba. It is written of the last-named city that at the height of its prosperity it contained more than 200,000 houses and more than a million inhabitants and that a man after sunset might walk in a straight line for ten miles along paved and illuminated streets—yet in Europe centuries later there was not a paved street in Paris nor a public lamp in London.

Cordoba was the first University founded in Europe, and in its halls multitudes of Christian scholars received instruction, among them being Gerbert who afterwards became Sylvester II, the brilliant Pope of Rome.

Inevitably, and in spite of the antagonism between Christendom and Islam, this advanced civilization influenced the course of life and thought in Europe. Through the Muslim outpost in Sicily and the scintillating brilliance of Muslim Spain, through the intelligence of scholars and the resources of the Muslim universities, through traders, through diplomats and travelers, through soldiers, sailors and reconquered peasants, new ideas, techniques, and attitudes passed from Islam to Western Europe.”

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 8 2006, 09:08 PM



Jesus will not come back as a woman, thats just silly. Quran and Sunnah don't say he'll come back as anything but himself.
I don't know why that seems unlikely to you. Why on earth would Jesus come back as anything but himself. Even if we didn't know(which we do know) how Jesus would appear to us in his return we know how the Anti Christ looks and behaves. So if anything we'd know how to avoid false impersonations of Jesus.
But Alhamdulillah we know how Jesus will appear to us and what he will do and what will lead up to the last days. So as long as we are knowledgable (and not too eager for his return that we'll believe anything) the believers are in good shape.

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 8 2006, 09:16 PM



We'll unlike the Jews, Muslims and Christians know that Jesus is coming and he is the true Messiah. Many Jews will end up following the Anti- Christ cause they are just so eager to meet their Messiah. And of course like the generations of Jews that came before them they will not except Jesus.
And so the cycle continues.....

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 9 2006, 02:55 AM



This is true...Muslims and Christians agree on the coming of Jesus.

But, Jews and Christians are in accordance about God...though I do not wish to stir up the Allah is God and God is Allah debate once more.

Sorry for my absence, I have been working on my next speech...and worrying about my date...I've never actually been on one.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 9 2006, 03:04 AM



Hmmm, Faatimah, you seem very sure of yourself on that point.

I have Christian friends who say pretty much the same thing, except they say that He will come down on a cloud, He will have blonde hair and blue eyes, He will do this and that, etc.

Isn't it this type of expectation that has veiled the Jews from the reality of Christ when He came to them before?

Could it not be this type of literal interpretation of scripture and traditions that veiled the Christians from the reality of Muhammad?

Would it be possible that you may be repeating the same mistakes in expecting a fulfillment of prophecies based on teachings and expectations given to you by experts in theological matters?

It was these same pious, devout and knowledgable Jewish experts who denied Christ, who failed to recognize the Christ spirit in Muhammad and who will probably fail to recognize Him when He returns.

There would hardly be two groups who can be said to agree on what the conditions of the Promised One will be, what signs will accompany His arrival, yet each group avidly claims that THEIR particular scenario is the one that will prevail.

Faatimah, you say that Jesus will not come back as a woman. Why is that so silly? He is Christ; can He not appear to us as He chooses?

You say that Jesus will not come back as anything but Himself. What is "Himself"?

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 9 2006, 03:41 AM



Well that where you have to really question the Christians...the bible doesn't state that Jesus has blonde hair and blue eyes in the first place. So why they believe that is a mystery...

I don't know why the Jews denied Jesus and then in return the Christians denied Muhammad. As a Muslim I can just hope we don't make the same mistakes.

Jesus can't appear as he chooses, he can only as Allah wills. Allah never said Jesus would return as a Muslim, meaning he won't. Allah says Jesus will return as himself. And himself is Prophet Isa, he will look like the same man he did when he lived on Earth so long ago.

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 9 2006, 03:46 AM



DayAfterTomorrow, what do you mean by Jews and Christians are in accordance about God?

By the way that movie Day After Tomorrow was pretty good.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 9 2006, 05:17 AM




And you have an ID image of Him from two thousand years ago so you will know to compare the two?   

Faatimah jon, I am grilling you on this point because it is a very common theme throughout history that
people of the established religion universally fail to recognize their Promised One when He appears
and after much experience with this, humankind still today is again expecting the literal fulfillment of their prophecies.

In Revelations we are told to expect someone with feet of brass and a sword for a tongue. Gracious! Can these scriptural promises not have a meaning other than the literal, outward meaning?

I read somewhere that one of the great Muslim poets, I think it was Rumi, a Man Who I consider to be a minor prophet under the umbrella of Muhammad's Revelation, said that the literal Words of the Koran are only there to deceive the unbelievers. He said that we should look for the underlying meaning. Only the pure in heart can discover that hidden meaning. He went on to say that the meanings of the Koran are seven in number; the last 3 or 4 meanings are veiled to all except God.

Do you have any thoughts on these comments, Faatimah? (or Kelly, Bahreem, GreatMuslim10, Pr0mythius, etc?)

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 9 2006, 05:36 AM



Allah says that somethings in the Qur'an are made simple and straight forward and others are made more complex.

People are known to turn the other cheek and be easily swayed. So even if they saw people with brass feet and a tongue like a sword who was suppose to be some savior or bringer of peace or whatever, some fast talker would be able to convince some of us otherwise sadly.
Many people think that what some is in the Quran is a metaphor for a deeper meaning. It is probably true for some things.

I have never heard of Rumi's theory on their being 7 meanings to the Qur'an.
And I don't know if there is any truth behind that.

Posted by: pr0mythius Aug 9 2006, 10:01 AM

faati ... you're kinda seeming like the types that think in a way that if its not in the holy book .. then it just isnt so. like the quote of jesus saying in the new testament "this is the way ... if it wasnt i would have told ya."

you dont know what jesus truely looked like back then .. niether do i .. we can only guess. and the pictures throughout the ages do not count. hell he could have been black -shrug- we dunno.

personally i hope he comes back in the form of a 10 foot tall reptilian. -nods- that would be cool. now see .. if you were to say THAT was silly ... you would be justified ... but it being silly for him to come back as a woman. its silly for you to say its silly that he would come back as a woman.

and if he comes down from a "cloud" that cloud will have an engine and doors on it. *hint hint*

Posted by: Daniels Aug 9 2006, 10:38 AM

Okay, ["Back to topic!!!" emoticon]

Rennaissance
After the Islamic Golden Age had been dazzling the eyes of the superstitious Europeans sunk deep in their Dark Ages, gradually the grip of the church was forcibly loosened by such luminaries as Fibonacci, Copernicus, Kepler, DaVinci, etc. "Greater than the march of mighty armies, and the powerful grip of a stifling religious orthodoxy, is an idea whose time has come."

Thus, the Rennaissance was born around 1400 AD. There had been many mini Rennaissances prior to this but each time it was forcibly put down by the religious secret police. The Age of Reason established science as the defining criterion of Truth rather than belief, in accord with Muhammad's injunction, "More holy than the blood of the martyr is the ink of the scholar".

It is important to note that the Rennaissance burst forth in the European arena in spite of religious orthodoxy, not because of it.

The European Rennaissance, fueled by the Inspiration of the Islamic Dispensation, climbed to great heights of discovery while the Islamic world gradually declined in prestige and influence.


[Edit: typos]

Posted by: Daniels Aug 9 2006, 10:54 AM

When this decline of the Islamic Golden Age was complete, and the world was once again sunk in a spiritual winter, a man was born in the Arabian Peninsula in 1750.

His name was Shaykh Ahmad, and he was to be the first of two heralds of two Holy Ones.

In the Bible we are told that "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
(King James Bible, Matthew 24:27 )

Indeed, we can pinpoint the commencement of the Industrial Revolution to 1750 AD, coincident with the birth of the herald for the new holy Prophet. The influence of the religion, instead of gradually illuminating the West after the passage of many centuries, now instantly Inspired the West. (Trust me. I've done much research on the beginings of the Industrial Revolution).

Shaykh Ahmad was succeeded by Siyyid Kazim who urged his followers to seek out the Promised One.

In 1844, the year 1260 AH (note that date well) the Bab, the holy Prophet-Herald of One greater than Himself, declared to one of Siyyid Kazim's followers that He was the Bab, the Gate of God.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 9 2006, 11:13 AM

It's interesting to note that Biblical scholars have calculated 1260 years for the coming of the Promised One, but because they didn't recognize the Divine Station of Muhammad they failed to take the Hijira into consideration when trying to fit "1260 years" into their calculations.

Those same scholars also calculated "1844" from other Biblical prophecies.

Both these dates came together when the Bab declared His mission, 1844 AD, 1260 AH.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 9 2006, 03:33 PM



Thanks for that link, Merrika. I didn't think it was all that biased. I was disapointed that it only dealt with Jeruselem, not Israel or Judah as a whole, but decent. For anyone who didn't read it,



Some things are skewed. For example it states that the jews returned to Jeruselem from exile in Babylon. Actually only a small percentage of Jews returned. Also, if you take this article for gospel (pun intended), Israel should have been full of Jews by the 20th century. I have a book about the Israeli/Palestine conflict, it is the worst written book I've ever tried to read (only the author has read it cover to cover probably), but what's interesting is practically the whole book is about population, there are lots and lots of census graphs to demonstrate the zionists progress in increasing the Jewish population to counter the Arab population - the Jews were a small minority in Palestine for a very long time.

But I'm jumping ahead.

Personally I'm content to skip over the Gospel - only because everyone knows the story. This is nothing but an overview, but in the first centuries after Christ, monotheistic religion was in a very tenuous state. Christians were few and were persecuted mercilessley, Jews were thrown out of Jeruselem and persecuted as well.

Then something happened, or two things actually. in the 4th century Constantine converted to Christianity and made it the official religion of the Byzantine Empire. Meanwhile, the Roman Empire was under attack and eventually collapsed (very slowly) leaving the Gothic tribes in control of Europe. These people were pegans and unsophisticated, but their Kings eventually came to yearn for the grandeur of the Roman Empire they had destroyed and the Byzantine Empire they heard stories about and obtained things of high quality from...

Then the wife of Clovis, the King of the Franks, decided to become a Christian (she might have converted before becoming Clovis' wife, I don't remember). Their first child died, when their second child got sick as well, Clovis's wife prayed fervently and the child survived. So when Clovis got into a jam on the battlefield he tried praying for victory, and it worked, he was convinced. All the Franks were baptized and Christianity was off and running in Europe.

I wrote that without doing any fact-checking so I might have fumbled a little bit...

I think there is also an interesting side-story about the 'aryans' from around this time (in Africa???).

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 9 2006, 03:35 PM



That is quite a deceptive methodology. You say something and belittle it by saying that you don't want "stir" it up. Then why did you state it in the first place? I already explained it to you and usediscernment in my rebuttal in the first few pages. Allah is God in `Arabic. Go find yourself an `Arabic Bible.

Now, what about your Christian brethren (`Arabs) in Lebanon that are heavily being bombarded by the Israeli Jews? These Christians cry to Allah for help and comfort.

In other words, the Israeli Jews are not in accordance with the God (Allah) of the Lebanese Christians.

Some words of advice: Don't be ignorant and delusional.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 9 2006, 03:49 PM

was writing another post to say:

"Sorry I haven't been around much lately, long work days. I checked in today to find a whole new page of posts - and Holy War hadn't even broke out ! Thanks all for the good reading - "

And I previewed it and laughed. Common guys, not this 'are Allah and God the same god?' crap again??

Yaawwwwn

How 'bout this for a concept - my God and Sinewy's God and DayAfter's God are ALL different Gods because they are all reside in each of our heads

Please don't anyone respond to that - or we WILL have a holy war break out .

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 9 2006, 04:01 PM



No one knows for sure how Jesus will be recognized (for those that have faith in him). Christians and Muslims rely on their traditions as sources to depict the image of Jesus.

More than 50% of the world's population don't believe in him. It is of no importance to them.


Faatimah,



Prophets of God are known to be Muslims (Wa ana minal muslimiin), those that submitted themselves to the will of God, in Islam. So in essence Jesus is viewed as a muslim. That was his true nature according to Islam.

There are known to be reliable traditions amongst the many fabricated hadiths regarding the descent of Mahdi. In some narrations, Jesus will be praying behind the Imam (Mahdi).

The religion of Islam will not be abrogated by Jesus's return as the Qur'an is viewed to be the last revealed, divine book by the Muslims.

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 9 2006, 04:03 PM




["NO WAR FOR OIL!" emoticon]

Posted by: Sanders Aug 9 2006, 04:04 PM

Well, you better hope the messiah doesn't decide to return anytime soon - he'd get thrown into Gitmo the first time he opened his mouth

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 9 2006, 04:57 PM



How is that deceptive methodology? I didn't say I didn't want to stir it up, I said I didn't want to stir it up AGAIN, as it has already been thoroughly discussed. I stated it because I was in agreement with GreatMuslim on Christ's return with the exception that he believes Allah and God are the same, and I do not.

If you would like me to enter into that debate again, I would be more than happy to do so, but seeing as it has already discussed, understanding was reached, and a consensus was never agreed to, I see no point in continuing that aspect of this discussion any further. I was just referring to what had been discussed earlier, without the intention of starting up that debate again.

I apologize for my "deceptive methodology."

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 9 2006, 05:05 PM




Nice sidestepping to what I stated. You didn't answer to the core of my material that was thwarted at you. You still remain in denial.

Now, why do the `Arab Christians refer God as Allah? Are you a better Christian than them? You have a different god than them? Are you both polytheists then?

Posted by: Sanders Aug 9 2006, 05:40 PM

Stop it.


I'll tell you a secret. This kind of debate serves three purposes - to make the divide between people wider, to offer a means for each party to try to feel good about themselves at the expence of the other, and to close off the means by which to convince the other side of your view.

The only time you win these kinds of arguments is in a Presidential debate, where at the end the news pundits exclaim - YOU WIN !!!!

Threatening another's belief system causes them to shut down, to rally into defensive mode, to react violently. That is why the subject of 9/11 produces such anguish.

There is only one way to make a person listen to what you have to say - they have to want to. Explaining a new view to someone, whether it's about 9/11 or Religion, is exactly like a guy wooing a girl. You have to make them interested in what you have to say. You have to first establish report. If what you have to say isn't interesting to them, if what you have to say comes off as you attacking their beliefs, they will go into defensive mode and stop listening and start formulating counterattack strategies. Sure it feels good to say what you know in your heart to be true, but it is wasted if it is just going to be ignored or ridiculed. It blows my mind that people try as hard as they can to make enemies of people that don't agree with them and then complain that their voices aren't heard. I'm talking in generalities mind you, not about religion necessarily, more about 9/11 and this site and the 'skeptics'. (And my dad !...)

For goodness' sake, DayAfterTomorrow, if Sinewy is trying to tell you the God he believes in is essentially the same God you believe in, should you not welcome that news?

For goodness' sake, if DayAfterTomorrow believes that her god is different from the Islamic Allah, isn't that OK too? The important thing is for people to start really listening to each other - . This is so much like arguing about semantics, which I find totally meaningless.

My 2 cents.

Posted by: DayAfterTomorrow Aug 9 2006, 06:14 PM

Look, I honestly don't care what anyone else believes, when it comes down to it, we all are accountable for our own beliefs, not those of others.

It was my understanding that we had already discussed the God/Allah being the same thing scenario, so I'm sorry I mentioned it.

My point all along has been that there is one God and only one God. Christians and Jews call Him God, Muslims call Him Allah. It is when Christians and Jew's beliefs on the characteristics of God diverge from the Muslim's beliefs on the characteristics of Allah that you have the problem. If God to Christians and Jews loves the Jewish people, and Allah of Muslims hates the Jewish people, that is a distinct difference at the core of this conflict. So, if God has two totally different sets of characteristics to each of these religions, and there is only one God, then someone is wrong. God cannot love Jews and hate them simultaneously, it is contradicting and hypocritical, and I think we can all agree that if God/Allah is perfect, He cannot be contradicting and hypocritical.

I am not trying to win, I was not even trying to argue by my initial statement. I was simply agreeing with GreatMuslim, yet setting a reminder of the fundamental differences between God/Allah. If you do not believe there are differences, then that's your perogative, and it honestly does not phase me in the least.

Sinewy, I apologize, I am having a rather crappy week and I don't mean to take it out on you or anyone else on here. I do respect your opinions and beliefs, and I'm sorry if I don't always come across as such.

Kelly

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 9 2006, 06:15 PM





Stop to a means, sure.




The second purpose is the not my intent nor is the third. The first is inevitable even if all precautions are employed.

Self righteousness is exemplified by DayAfterTomorrow. It is racist in nature. Denying that Allah does not refer to God or "Father", because of the `Arabic origins and Islamic usage of the term Allah, shows that `Arab Christians are ignorant of their language and worship the "wrong" God. That is the implicit meaning of her words. She does not come to the realization of this.

It is not about which religion or belief system is right or wrong, but that arrogance should be expected to take a back seat.



Please show me where I threatened the "other's" beliefs. It was all defensive. Offensive outbursts were started by the instigators. They know who they are.

The way Islam is approached is analogous to the way people "first" approach 9/11 on this forum: Skeptical.




See above. It is okay, but not at the expense of ignoring `Arab Christians usage of the name "Allah" and isolating it to Islam only.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 9 2006, 06:23 PM

I think what Sinewy is trying to say is that God is the same as Elohim and Allah. Many Jews call God today Elohim, which is Hebrew for God. Do you hear Christians saying that they are worshipping a different god? No. I, too, don't want to start a debate again, but what I'm saying is that we all believe that we worship the same God as each other (Jews, Christians, and Muslims). We only have different conceptions about Him. If Christians don't want to accept that Muslims do worship their God, then that is okay, but we do have the intention to do so and we are.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 9 2006, 06:38 PM





Nice post, GM10. DID EVERYONE READ THAT?!?!?? Please do.

We are saying the same thing. I am going one step further in a slightly different direction, in saying that you can't force anything down anyone's throat. I am glad we are having these kinds of discussions, for the reason that Christians, by and large, believe that Islam is some kind of totally foreign religion that believes in something totally different from what Christians believe. This is of course false, this is of course the result of a thousand years of propoganda designed to pit Christian against Muslim, forwarded first by the Holy Roman Pope in the 12th century in order to rally the Christians of Europe to march into Palestine (12 times finally) to try to seize Jerusesum from the Arab residents.

Edit: spelling

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 10 2006, 04:23 AM



Sorry about that I meant to say that Jesus won't return as a woman, I think I was getting a little tired.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 10 2006, 04:57 AM

Didn't Muhammad say, "I am the Christ"?

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 10 2006, 05:20 AM



I don't recall the Prophet(saw) saying anything like that.

Posted by: Faatimah .. Aug 10 2006, 05:28 AM




Ummm....I donnu how you want me to respond to that. I'm Muslim and it's is not just a title its a way of life. My religion is based on the Quran and the teachings of Muhammad(saw). So in a way Yes, if its not in the Quran Sunnah or Hadith than it just isn't so. And if theirs an issue seek the advise of a scholar.

You don't seem to believe that I know what Jesus(may Allah be pleased wit him) looks like but maybe you'll believe that I know what the Anti Christ looks like and how he behaves and what he will accomplish. I believe what I believe....

Posted by: Daniels Aug 10 2006, 07:25 AM



Islamic truthers (including Faatimah), are you aware of the Abjad notation in the Arabic and Persian languages?

I believe that the anti-Christ was a man whose name equalled 666 in the Abjad system.

Posted by: nike2422 Aug 10 2006, 10:43 AM

I watched an excellent video a few weeks ago. It's called The God Who Wasn't There This spring I read the book The Key to Solomon's Key by Lon Milo Duquette. In the wake of all of the banter on this thread about what Jesus will look like or what gender Jesus will be when he returns, may I offer up the conclusions of this video and book.

In The God Who Wasn't There The following are explored:

* The early founders of Christianity seem wholly unaware of the idea of a human Jesus

* The Jesus of the Gospels bears a striking resemblance to other ancient heroes and the figureheads of pagan savior cults (Mithra, Osiris, Dionysis)

* Contemporary Christians are largely ignorant of the origins of their religion

* Fundamentalism is as strong today as it ever has been, with an alarming 44% of Americans believing Jesus will return to earth in their lifetimes

* And God simply isn't there

In other words, Jesus never actually existed. What historical records exist outside of the bible? None. Do you know why much of the scriptures written about Jesus are not included in the Canon? Because it's the stuff of fantasies and tall tales and would make it obvious to intelligent people that the story of Jesus is just a story.

In The Key to Solomon's Key Lon Milo DuQuette discusses the origins of Masonic mysteries and the legacy handed down from the Knights Templar. I'm sure you know about the 9 knights in the 12 century CE who went to Jerusalem to start an order of knights to protect pilgrims in the Holy Land. They asked for the land the Temple once stood on, then settled in for seven years and no one saw or heard from them during that time. They certainly didn't protect any pilgrims while they were there, but there were already orders of knights in the area doing that.

DuQuette's book asks the question, what did the Knights Templar find there after seven years? After their stint in the holy land, they packed up and went all the way to Scotland and established "The Poor Knights of the Temple" They continued on their mission of "protecting" pilgrims in the holy land; securing valuables for pilgrims and loaning money, eventually developing a very lucrative usury business until their violent end in the 14th century.

DuQuette's research to answer the question what did the Knights find or learn about the Temple Mount revealed a startling discovery. It's most likely the Knights found ABOSULTELY NOTHING at the Temple Mount. No treasure, no ark of the covenant, in fact ... NO TEMPLE. What historical evidence do we have that Moses existed. The Bible. What historical evidence do we have that King David or Solomon existed? The Bible. Who says the Bible is true? The Bible says it's true. Think of it as the Wikipedia of the early church.

Egyptians never mention Moses in their histories. There is no mention of David or Solomon in the histories of nations surrounding Israel during the time they supposedly lived. The first historical account of the Israelites outside of the Bible comes in the 6th century BCE when the Persians, followers of Zoroastrianism at the time, encountered the Israelites being held captive in Babylon.

It wasn't until they returned to Palestine, and Ezra came out of the supposed ruins of the Temple Mount that these people heard about their "history": the stories of Moses , David, Solomon and so on ...

The Knights Templar discovered the most dangerous secret in the world, the Arameic religions are based on FICTION.

Think about it, all of the wars, all of the suffering, the torturing, the BULLSHIT going on in the Middle East right now, all of the human suffering the Judeo-Christian-Islamic religions have caused for millenia! All based on fiction.

Jesus isn't coming back, he never existed in the first place!

We love to joke about swallowing the red pill and learning the truth on this website. This is the mother of all red pills.

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 10 2006, 09:42 PM




Thats another conspiracy theory.
And I don't know how many people(religious) will fall for it.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 11 2006, 01:23 AM

Shouldn't we be talking about something else?

Posted by: Daniels Aug 11 2006, 02:43 AM

Nike2422, the point you raise is a valid topic of discussion.

What proof do we have that God exists?

One proof is that every building needs a builder. This marvelous structure that we inhabit would need Someone to create it.

Another is our own station. We humans are a part of nature, and nature dictates that we live on the land, walk at a certain speed, breathe air, etc. However, by some mysterious connection with the spiritual realm we are able to fly through the air, sail the trackless oceans, rapidly transit the globe. If nature had her way all these things would be impossible for humans. The fact that we can violate the strict laws of nature is a proof that God exists and that we humans connect with God to learn these supernatural wonders. This same mysterious connection allows us to penetrate the hidden mysteries such as the earth being a globe. The animals are devoid of this human faculty and would always believe that the earth is flat.

What proof do we have that the holy Prophets existed?

"If the earth is not cultivated, it becomes a jungle where useless weeds grow; but if a cultivator comes and tills the ground, it produces crops which nourish living creatures."

In this paragraph, the Cultivator is the holy Prophet. He establishes a religion that goes on to become the epitome of human civilization. Without His influence the human society would have become barbaric, filled with "thorns" and "weeds" of hate and self-interest. (recognize any of this going on today?)

Moses founded a religion that went on to become the basis of the great Greecian civilization.

Jesus founded a religion that became the great empire of Constantinople, which had architecture and science that baffled the mind. "Greek Fire" was an invention of this civilization that defended it for over 1,000 years. We still, today, don't know the formula for Greek Fire.

Muhammad founded a religion that went on to dazzle the world with its wonders. We in the West are barely aware of the great Islamic civilization because of religious and cultural prejudices. One day a complete history of the world will be written that will include ALL history and not just the propagandized version that we currently have.

The Islamic influence directly caused the barbaric Europeans to lift themselves out from the Dark Ages and into the Rennaissance.

Nike2422, I hope these comments may give you food for thought. It's a topic that we have to contemplate over time to see the truth.

[Edit: typos]

Posted by: coverdws Aug 11 2006, 03:49 PM

Nike2422

I used to have similar doubt concerning the strength of the biblical tales. In fact as it has already been discussed on this thread, the gospels contained in the New testament were written well after Jesus departed, and by people who had never met him. The end result is going to be human error and contradiction.

However, try viewing Judaism, Christianity and Islam as one continuum beginning with Adam and Eve. ( BTW there is scientific DNA evidence that all men can be traced back to one origin. This is done the same exact way they can determine if some one is the biological father in a perternity case).

After Satan (Iblis) refuses to bow before Adam, the following dialogue takes place:

God (Allah): "Then get you from here, for verily, you are outcast. And verily!, My curse is upon you til the Day of Recompense."
Satan (Iblis): ""My Lord! Give me then respite till the Day the dead are resurrected>"
God (Allah):"Verily! you are of those allowed respite - till the Day of the time appointed."
Satan (Iblis):By Your Might, then I will surely mislead them all, -- except Your chosen slaves among them"
(Surah 38: 71-85)

Lets jump ahead to what happens in Eden. Adam knows that he supposed to stay away from the Tree of Knowledge "But come not near this tree or you both will be of the wrong doers" (Surah 2: 35) But Iblis continually whispers to Adam "Your Lord did not forbid you this tree save you should become angels or become of the immortals" and Iblis swore by God to them both saying: Verily, I am one of the sincere well-wishers for you both" (Surah 7: 20-21) Day after day, year after year this went on until Adam and Eve eventually forgot their promise to God. Upon eating the apple, they both became ashamed and became aware of their nakedness. They repent to God who forgives them, but they can no longer stay in Eden and they are given their spot on earth.

Now, I took the time to type this story out because it clearly demonstrates our struggle and the parts that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam will play. Starting with Adam, we know there is only one God. However, Satan works on man until he forgets. Each time, God sends a new Prophet to bring man back on track. Each prophet is sent to a specific people, until the coming of the Last Prophet, Muhammed (pbuh) who is sent as a mercy to all of mankind. It is one long continuum.

From this view, infact, these prophets are not introducing new religions, but reminding us of what we keep forgettingL there is only one God. Subsequently, with each new round of transgressions, God adds or subtracts from what is permissable. The only deviation from this message comes during the period after Jesus (pbuh) and before Mohammed (pbuh) when the trinity is conceived. But that is a who other set of postings.

Also at least begining with the Torah, there is written tidings of the coming of future prophets, and even the New Testament includes very clear indications of the coming of the Final Prophet, Muhammed (pbuh). The Quran is also loaded with very clear descriptions of science which we have only discovered to be true today 1600+ years later. http://www.islam-guide.com/bqs/index.htm was written by a frenchman and has many interesting truths.

However, since you are probably not Muslim, I will direct you to a very interesting video I came across a few years ago called "the Real Mt Sinai" you can read their account at http://www.baseinstitute.org/Sinai_1.html. These guys are Christian and they only go by descriptions contained in the Bible. The bottom line is that they find hard visable evidence that the Exodus took place and they are able to follow the trail that Moses ( may God be plaesed with him) took based on descriptions in the Bible.

One last comment concerning the remarks about the Templars. Arab History has a lot to say about those chaps. They were extremely visioucs and there are planty of accounts written by non-Muslim scholars which indicate they were responsible for numerous attrocities during the Crusades, but we haven't actually gotten that far yet.

Sorry for the length and any mistakes are my own. I have summarized substantially and obviously there are several areas which could be expanded upon. Look for the truth, its out there.

Posted by: coverdws Aug 11 2006, 04:27 PM

Sorry I didn't actually complete my thought which is this: History is a funny thing. If it is written by men, you can guarantee that it will be biased. if you don't believe me, read either Lies my teacher Told Me or Lies Across America, both written by James Loewen. This is only a micocosm of the larger issue.

Men have been editing recorded history as long as we have been recording it. So it is not a big step to believe that many of the "stories" related in the Bible might not be found outside, why would they. By and large those historians did not believe in Jesus either. And remember that in Europe most lettered men were clergy, so they thought they were recording history, at least as they saw it.

But from an islamic standpoint: we have the Quran in its original language, just as it was revealed and recorded. So when we read it and find no contradiction or falasy, and we find many many truths that are revealed through science, it is easy to accept the stoies of the Prophets as being true. God says they are.

So just as you would trust your best friend who has never lied to you, so we put our trust in what is relayed to us from the Prophets and especially Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and the Quran because they are without falasy or contradiction.

God's history is in fact the only one we can trust, but we must be careful to validate the source who is relating it. Was it some monk who was translating Aramaic to greek or greek to italian and decided the the story would read better if a word was changed? Or is it actually handed to us from one of God's many Prophets, and most specifically Mohammed (pbuh) whose entire life was documented by his close friends and Family.

Again something which did not survive in the currenlty accepted gospels. Remeber our friends the Romans had a lot to do with this. But that is a separate topic for discussion.

Again, I apologize for any mistakes, they are mine, I am not a great scholar.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 11 2006, 06:21 PM



You're kickin' MY @ss!

Welcome newbie


Is it true that Mohammed was illiterate, that others wrote what he dictated?

P.S. - I am ready to dive into the birth of Islam. I don't care much about hashing out the Gospel, mostly because I was brought up Christian and none of it's news to me... but if anything comes to mind this is the time. There is something that wasn't touched on, Arius. Why did Hitler refer to the Germans as the 'Arian race'? Controversy about the trinity 700 years ago... was Jesus a man, or god?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4456874.stm

http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainT...?historyid=ac61?

Posted by: Daniels Aug 11 2006, 07:22 PM



It would appear that every holy Prophet of God has something about Him that forms a test of faith for the generality of humankind.
Moses slew a man in a marketplace prior to receiving Revelation and establishing the Mosaic Law.

Christ was born of a virgin, thus Jesus was looked upon as fatherless and lowly. Many people make a mistake here. Most think that the virgin birth signifies a holiness and sanctity because He was not fathered in a normal manner. Baha'is are taught that His virgin birth was purely a test of sincerity for the people of that time.

Muhammad was illiterate and considered unlettered and unlearned.

Baha'u'llah (the Founder of the Baha'i Faith).... well, I don't know what shortcoming He had but no doubt those who oppose Him will find one.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 11 2006, 08:34 PM


B)

Sinewy, I wasn't talking toward you. This is really the crux of it. Read what I posted and it should be clear. "Threatening another's belief system causes them to shut down, to rally into defensive mode".

The big problem is belief systems. They are based largely on propoganda. That is the reason for this thread.

I'm ready to learn about the birth of Islam.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 11 2006, 08:38 PM






Yes, Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was illiterate.

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 11 2006, 08:45 PM



I apologize then. I saw it from a generalized point of view. That is all. I didn't see any harm in my feedback. This is a forum and things can be interpreted from so many angles.

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 11 2006, 08:51 PM

Where were we in this thread officially?

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 11 2006, 10:47 PM

Prophet Muhammad(saw)
First
Revelation

The commencement(of Divine Inspiration) to Allah's Prophet was in the form of true dreams in his sleep, for he never had dream but it turned out to be true and clear as bright as daylight. Then he began to prefer seclusion, so he used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship Allah continuously for many nights before going back to his family to take the necessary provisions. He would come back to his wife Khadija again to take his provisions, until one day he recieved the guidance while in the cave of Hira.

An angel, Gabriel, came to him and asked him to read. Muhammad said "I do not know how to read". The Prophet added, "Then the angel held me down and presssed me so hard I felt distressed. Then he released me and again asked me to read, and I replied, 'I do not know how to read'. There upon he held me again and presssed me for the second time until I felt distressed. He then released me and asked me to read but again I replied. 'I do not know how to read'. Thereupon he held me for the third time and pressed me till I got distresssed, and then he released me and said, 'Read, in the name of your Lord who has created all, has created man out of a clot, Read! And your Lord is the most generous. Who has taught by the pen, has taught man that which he knew not.'" (ch96:1-5)

Then Muhammad(saw) returned home trembleing from that experience, he camae upon his wife Khadija and said "Cover me!, Cover me!" She covered him and once a little relieved from that which shocked and frightened him, he said to Khadija. "O Khadija(ra) What is wrong with me? I was afraid something horrible would happen to me. Then he told her what happened. Khadija said" Nay, But recieve the good tidings! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you, for by Allah, you keep good relations with you Kin, speak the truth, help the poor and the destitute, entertain you guest generously and assist those who are stricken with calamities." Khadija athan took him to Waraqa bin Naufil, the son of Khadija's paternal uncle. Waraqa used to write Arabic and write of the Gospel as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said " O my cousin, listen to what Muhammad is going to say." Waraqa said " O my nephew what have you seen?" The Prophet(saw) then described to him what he had seen. Waraqa then said " This is the same angel who was sent to Moses."

------will finish later-----