Posted by: Faatimah Aug 12 2006, 01:04 AM

-----okey dokey-------

"The Prophet(saw) said will these people drive me out?" Waraqa said"Yes, for nobody brought the like of what you have brought, but was treated with hostility. If I were to remain alive till your day, than I would support you strongly." Soon after Waraqa died and the revelations were paused while the Prophet(saw) grieved his loss.

Narrated by Jabir bin Abdullah: While the Prophet(saw) was talking about the period of pause in revelation, he said in his narration: "Once while I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and to my suprise, the same Ange; as had visited me in the cave of Hira. He was between sky and earth. I became afraid, and went home and said Wrap me, wrap me!" So they covered him and then Allah revealed:
O you, wrapped up! Arise and deliver thy warning! and your Lord do you magnify.

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 12 2006, 01:21 AM




What is your source? Please give the sources there.

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 12 2006, 01:35 AM



Muhammad was known as an `Ummi (illiterate) prophet.

It is mentioned in the Qur'an, chapter 29, verse 48:

“And thou was not (able) to recite a Book before this (Book came), nor art thou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.”

Elsewhere in the Qur'an:

“Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (Scriptures) in the Law and the Gospel”

Interestingly, if one wishes to dive further into this, one can validate this in previous scriptures mentioned in the verse (Torah, Tawrat in `Arabic and `Injil, `Arabic for Gospel).

I found this in Isaiah 29:12:

“And the book is delivered to him that is not learned.”

There were reports that he learned how to read and write after the revelations came down. The majority and mainstream opinion is taken from the above quotations

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 12 2006, 04:09 AM

Faatimah, you might want to say God instead of Allah in your posts because I know there are a lot of Islamic hating posters who will start saying that He is different from God. Just thought I'd let you know.

Posted by: zootalures Aug 12 2006, 04:12 AM



Or maybe G-d, just to be on the safe side... [ holding US Flag Emoticon]

Posted by: Daniels Aug 12 2006, 08:40 AM

...but when do we get to the latest world religion -- the Baha'i Faith.

(are we there yet?)

Posted by: Sanders Aug 12 2006, 05:16 PM



No need to !



If anyone wants to kick in anything from the time of Christ - or, I also think it might be good for someone to give us all a nice post about the persecution of the Christians and Jews by the Romans in the centuries before Constantine...

And since this whole thing about whether the Islamic God is the same god as the Christian God or not keeps coming up,

The Council of Nicea !?

I'm not interested in arguing about which god is who's god or who's god is the real god, but I'm plenty interested in looking at WHY we argue about it.

Here's a decent article about the Council of Nicea...

http://www.probe.org/content/view/790/91/


Around the time of Constantine there was a lot of arguing about whether Jesus was the son of god and a man, or if he was God - that is, they argued about the validity and the meaning of the "Trinity". The leader of the sect that promoted the Trinity view was Athanasius, Arius promoted the view that the father and son were separate entities. P.S. when Hitler talked about the Arian race, I'm pretty sure the word is traced back to the Arians, or the religious sect that followed the theories of Arius (refered to as a "presbyter" from Libya). I'm kind of curious as to why Hitler refered to the Germans as the Arian race (!?). I always thought the distinction had to do something with blue eyes and blond hair. Looks like it was about religion, distinquishing the Presbyterian Germans from the Roman Catholics and Jews of Europe.

Also, I found it interesting the part about different bishops being repeatedly banned and then reinstated through the years for their beliefs regarding the trinity - reminded me of the battles here on this forum with various skeptics, no-planers, etc. haha.




I don't know anything about the Baha'i faith. When did it come about?

Originally, I wanted to limit this to Christianity, Juadaeism and Islam - simply because it is these religions that are relavant to the milleniums long fight over the holy land, and thus related to 9/11 and the coming-to-a-theatre-near-you-soon WWIII.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 12 2006, 05:29 PM

This is jumping ahead a little bit, but it's something I've been looking into a little bit myself recently and I wanted to post these two links while I'm looking at them - the Rothschilds are Khazar (Ashkenazi) Jews by the way... ancient Khazar is part of modern Khazakistan.

http://www.khazaria.com/khazar-history.html

http://www.kulanu.org/khazaria/kazar_return.html

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 12 2006, 07:47 PM



I heard about the Rothschilds. Aren't they behind the Illuminati and Freemasonry?

Posted by: Daniels Aug 13 2006, 01:30 AM



----------------------------------------------------------------
"Leaders of religion, in every age, have hindered their people from attaining the shores of eternal salvation, inasmuch as they held the reins of authority in their mighty grasp." (Baha'i Scripture)
----------------------------------------------------------------

The people of the previous religion denied Moses. He said, "And the LORD said unto Moses: 'How long will this people despise Me? and how long will they not believe in Me, for all the signs which I have wrought among them?" (Torah, Bamidbar)

The Jews denied Christ, yet He said, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me." (King James Bible John 14:6)

The Jews and the Christians denied Muhammad, yet He said, "The true believers are those only who believe in God and His Apostle (Muhammad)" (Koran,Sura 49 The Apartments)

The Jews, the Christians and the Muslims deny Baha'u'llah as the Promised One, yet He said, "No man can obtain everlasting life, unless he embraceth the truth of this inestimable, this wondrous, and sublime Revelation." (Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 183)

Anybody see a pattern here?

Posted by: Daniels Aug 13 2006, 01:56 AM

The Baha'i Faith, a brief summary

The Revelation proclaimed by Bahá'u'lláh, His followers believe, is divine in origin, all-embracing in scope, broad in its outlook, scientific in its method, humanitarian in its principles and dynamic in the influence it exerts on the hearts and minds of men. The mission of the Founder of their Faith is to proclaim that religious truth is not absolute but relative, that Divine Revelation is continuous and progressive, that the Founders of all past religions, though different in the non-essential aspects of their teachings, "abide in the same Tabernacle, soar in the same heaven, are seated upon the same throne, utter the same speech and proclaim the same Faith." His Cause, they have already demonstrated, stands identified with, and revolves around, the principle of the organic unity of mankind as representing the consummation of the whole process of human evolution. This final stage in this stupendous evolution, they assert, is not only necessary but inevitable, that it is gradually approaching, and that nothing short of the celestial potency with which a divinely ordained Message can claim to be endowed can succeed in establishing it.

The Bahá'í Faith
recognizes the unity of God and of His Prophets,
upholds the principle of an unfettered search after truth,
condemns all forms of superstition and prejudice,
teaches that the fundamental purpose of religion is to promote concord and harmony,
that it must go hand-in-hand with science,
and that it constitutes the sole and ultimate basis of a peaceful, an ordered and progressive society.
It inculcates the principle of equal opportunity, rights and privileges for both sexes,
advocates compulsory education,
abolishes extremes of poverty and wealth,
exalts work performed in the spirit of service to the rank of worship,
recommends the adoption of an auxiliary international language,
and provides the necessary agencies for the establishment and safeguarding of a permanent and universal peace.
Born about the middle of the nineteenth century in darkest Persia, assailed from its infancy by the forces of religious fanaticism, the Faith has, notwithstanding the martyrdom of its Forerunner, the repeated banishments of its Founder, the almost life-long imprisonment of its chief Promoter and the cruel death of no less than twenty thousand of its devoted followers, succeeded in diffusing quietly and steadily its spirit throughout both the East and the West. Its followers come from more than 2,000 different tribal, racial, and ethnic groups and live in 236 countries and dependent territories and has over time obtained from the ecclesiastical and civil authorities in various lands written affirmations that recognize its independent religious status.

http://bahai.org

I hope this helps to put the Baha'i Faith into an historical and contemporary context.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 13 2006, 02:25 AM

I cannot believe in God having been manifested through His prophets and messengers. I believe Almighty God is above all.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 13 2006, 01:53 PM



Yes, GreatMuslim10, "He is God". He is omnipotent and all-powerful. This is why Bahá’ís don’t believe in Satan. Nothing can exist but that it exists at God’s pleasure. Satan is simply the evil side of humankind. We have the free will to choose to do good things or to do evil things. If we choose the good, we become ever more saintly. If we choose the evil, we become ever more satanic.

The “Manifestations” are as mirrors that reflect the light of the Sun. The Sun does not descend into the mirror but still the mirror reflects the light, the heat, the intensity of the Sun.

In this sense, the mirror can proclaim "I am the Sun" and it would speak the truth because we see a perfect reflection of the disc, the heat and the light of the sun. And if the mirror, with regard to its separateness and individuality, were to claim to not be the Sun, it too would be true. Thus, apparent paradoxes in religious texts can be explained (by the Holy Ones) to be both factual and logical.
---------------------------------------------
The Bahá’í Faith is relevant to both this thread and to the Truth community in general because it teaches that this process of disintegration that we are currently experiencing is part of an organic process of eventual global unity.

Humankind has evolved ever-widening circles of unity over thousands of years. We have recognized the unity of the family, then the tribe, the city state and the nation. Now we need to complete the process of unification by recognizing the oneness of humankind.

It’s not going to be easy. The despicable barbarism accompanying the lead up to the next global catastrophe is painful. The catastrophe itself will be globally devastating.

But if we look to the larger view we will recognize this hardship and suffering as the birth pangs of the Christ-promised peace on earth. This will give us strength to endure and to remain positive in spite of our difficulties.
---------------------------------------------

Posted by: coverdws Aug 13 2006, 04:32 PM

Wow, that really sucked, I just lost my post into the ether. I'll try and recreate it:

Let's take a step back: I think we should have a look it the transition from Jesus to Christ and the events leading upto and including the council of Nicea. Ultimately, these events are at the root of the disagreement concerning the Christian and Muslim "version" of God.

If we all ascert that there is one God (regardless of whether we agree that He is the Same). There must be a continuity in his message.

There is a hadith in Islam (I'll paraphrase) that the Jews will separate into 71 sects, the Christians will separate into 72 sects, and the Muslims will separate into 73. Whether or not you are Muslim, I think we can all see the truth in this statement. The actual hadith is longer but for the sake of our discussion this will do.

There is another Hadith which states that if we do not fulfill our obligations to God, he will replace us with another people who will. ( I will provide the source unless someone can provide it more quickly). God has destroyed entire cities / peoples for their transgressions and unwillingness to repent. The account of Noah springs immediately to mind, but there are others.

Just taking these two statements (Hadith) and applying them to the historical information we have on our religions, we should be able to have an intelligible discussion on where things are consistent and where things diverge.

In my mind, God is ultimately Fair and Just, God is Truth without error. He is also infinitely mericful to those who turn to Him in open repentance. God is certainly not limited to these few attributes, they are just the ones that I chose as relevent to this line of thought.

I welcome everyone comments and any mistake are my own. I think that everyone has doen a very good job of keeping this thread free of insult. remember that there is no compulsion in religion.

PS, my other post was better, but this was the best I could do.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 13 2006, 05:17 PM



Haha, I hate it when that happens



What exactly are "these events" ? It'd be great if you could elaborate

If you indulge me, an analogy can be made between the centuries after Christ and the truth movement now. Obviously truthers aren't being fed to the lions (yet!), but there is persecution going on of a sort, suppression actually, if you think about Kevin Barrett, Charlie Sheen, hit pieces in the media, infiltration of truther sites by shills etc. Where the analogy really can be made, is that the Christians were forced to go underground, get their act together, and figure out what it was exactly that they believed and how to get the word out. Through that process 2 major sects emerged that couldn't make ammends with each other - that is, how to interpret the idea of the "trinity". ...Not unlike the different sects that have emerged in the truth movement, the no-planer controversy immediately comes to mind.

Constantine was like a forum administrator that said to everyone, stop all this bickering, lets have a council and decide once and for all what version of this religion we are going to make official...

Anyway that's my take on it.

(P.S. Where are the Christians? Plenty to touch on - the writing of the Gospels? Paul and the beginings of the Church? the persecution of the Christians? is there archeological evidence that Jesus lived? This is your chance - we are quickly approaching Mohammed...)

Posted by: Sanders Aug 13 2006, 06:03 PM

A peek into the future - (of this thread, if it doesn't die)

There are, in my mind, several pertinent questions that will hopefully come into focus - I'm bringing them up now because if you aren't careful you'll miss important information that can shed light on how everyone decides to answer these questions for themselves. Not that it's all that important either way, the world will keep spinning (out of control!?) nomatter what people think or think about. But, these to me are the pertinent questions -

Do the Jewish people have a right to live in Palestine? Do the Palestinians have a right to live in Palestine? Do Americans claim any right to any moral high ground when they stole their continent from the Indians? Can Americans just accept that they are and always have been imperialists, that the current campaign to paint Muslims as terrorists is no different that the campaign to paint Indians as savages? What is the basis of the Jewish claim to Palestine - an ancient promise from God? Do Muslims, who share religious history with the Jews and ostensibly believe in the same god, accept the validity of this pact between God and the Jews? Can the Jewish population in Israel trace their roots to the original Israelites, or are they nearly all of Khazar and Spanish decent, having no real relation to the Israelites other than the fact that their ancestors adopted that religion? Or is there evidence that the Khazar (Ashkenazi) Jews were in fact descended from the Israelites? Or does it even matter? Is it the "pact with God" that makes the claim valid? Or does "might make right" and Israel played their cards right and the Palestinians screwed up (bad leadership etc.) and that's the way the cookie crumbles? Why is President Bush, a proclaimed devout Christian, surrounded by a team of Zionist policy makers? Was a pact made between the American religious right and the Zionists to work together to wrest the holy land from Muslims? Why are these 2 sects seemingly in bed together?

Please don't anyone respond to any of that - just keep it in the back of your mind as we plow though the centuries...

Posted by: coverdws Aug 13 2006, 07:21 PM



Of relevance:

Who was Jesus and what was he teaching. (responses should be interesting)
Who were the apostles
Who was Paul of Tarsus
What about Barnabus

On a side note, The Arius that I am familiar with did not accept the trinity. He was born in Libia and he was a presbyter. He was the known leader of the Apostolic Church which followed the strict teachings of Jesus as he lived.

Posted by: Cary Aug 13 2006, 10:01 PM




Sorry Sanders. I know you said don't respond to your post, but I am anyway. LOL Not to argue with you on any of this, and I haven't read this thread. I don't do "religion." As Jesse Ventura is quoted as saying, "Organized religion is for weak minded people," and tend to stay way clear of religious debates.

But, (here's my BIG BUTT) Zionists got Israel going, and are using the Jewish people as victims, AGAIN, in their quest for global domination. It ain't about Jews vs. Muslims at all. It's about Zionists (bankers mostly) achieving their agenda, which only uses Judaism as a pretext. The "anti-Semite" and "Holocaust" card plays well. Zionists were in bed with Hitler. The Holocaust was an event that the Zionists used to get the Jewish state of Israel founded, post WW II. Then the state of Israel could be used to foment all kinds of bad sh*t to bring about WW III and "order out of chaos" a new one world government and one world banking system. The whole scheme of things uses "religion" as a pretext to further political agenda, plain and simple.

Okay, I sh*t in the lunch kit and I won't be back on this thead because I tend to puke around religious debates. For those who want or need religion to get through their day, fine. Every religion should have an equal opportunity to sway the masses, but it's all bullshit. No offense to the religious reading or posting here. Sorry, if this disrupts the thread, and please feel free to delete this post.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 14 2006, 12:19 AM





Cary, I'm a Baha'i and I believe in our Creator.

However, the god that you don't believe in, I don't believe in either.

Posted by: Faatimah Aug 14 2006, 02:50 AM



I wouldn't worry about it. By the way Daniels, you said that the god Cary doesn't believe in, you don't either. Cary's atheist. Cary doesn't believe in any god

Posted by: Sun Zoo Aug 14 2006, 04:29 AM



Yep, that's where it all started, and to this day the Jews believe they are superior as a result. When in reality, they are brothers of the Arabs, cousins anyway. Same root and source, in a promise.

In quantum reality the only thing that's real is like a promise and a promise isn't a promise unless it is kept, and the glue which holds the committment in place with lasting integrity is love. That is how the Bible is read, as the story of a divine romance. I don't know about the Koran, but it sounds a little more trible and rule driven, to keep people closely in line with Doctrine. Christianity then steps in as the ultimate revelation of the promise, extended to all humanity. There's an interesting type of historical tension there, which a thorough and proper interpretation of all three Religions central tenets holds the key to resolving, with increased conscious awareness on the part of everyone.

I predict that a grand lesson is being learned, which is both something very old and very new.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 14 2006, 06:17 AM



One thing to mention though is that Sarah gave up Hagar (who was her slave) to Abraham as a wife, since she was barren. Abraham did not do impregnate her behind Sarah's back.

Posted by: Sun Zoo Aug 14 2006, 06:36 AM

And since Abraham had sex with both his daughters, while drunk, there needn't be any moral inequivalency..

Posted by: Daniels Aug 14 2006, 07:29 AM



GreatMuslim10, the god that Cary doesn't believe in is the partisan, manufactured god that takes sides with groups of people, that will come to earth one day and severely punish those who don't believe in a particular religion or sect of religion.

That's the type of god that makes sensible people into atheists.

Deep, deep down, Cary may well feel that there is a Force, a Power, an Essence that is far, far above the minds of men and our petty squablings.

Prior to becoming a Baha'i at age 21, I was an atheist. One day I was asked if I believed in God. My reply was to talk about god as a superstition that weak minded people carried with them as a crutch to get through life. I then went on to say that "If there was to be a God, a great Being that could bring this stupendous universe into existence, then you can bet your life that He would be far, far above what the religious people say about Him". Turns out I was right.

Perhaps Cary and other atheists feel the same.

I love God. I thank Him every day for his wonderful bounties to His creatures. But I don't belive that He sides with Sunnis over Shi'ahs, or Catholics over Coptics, or Christians over Muslims, etc. I think that when we seek to exalt ourselves over others we are demonstrating just how far away are from Him we really are.

I'll say it again, "The god that the atheists don't believe in, I don't believe in either."

"He is God"

PS Now that I am religious I realize that I was mistaken when I felt that religious people followed superstitions. I now know that the Great Prophets and Messengers from God inspire in us humans such awe and love that we will follow them in spite of the ridicule of those who don't believe.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 14 2006, 08:21 AM



First of all, that is not true. Second of all, Abraham only had two children and they were both males. Their names were Ishmael and Isaac. Third of all, I think you are mixing up with the Biblical story of Lot's (it is mentioned in the Bible what you said except it was Lot and not Abraham). And fourth and most important of all, Muslims and the Qur'an rejects that story of Lot getting drunk and sleeping with his two daughters anyways.

Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Aug 14 2006, 08:22 AM

Hey Daniels, what was your religion before you became an atheist in the first place?

I had no religion.

In primary school we had "scripture" classes but they were so bad that they became the "proof" that there was no god.

It wasn't until I discovered God for real in the Baha'i Faith that I understood
that science and religion must go hand in hand,
that God loved all of us rather than just those that "went to church on Sunday",
that religion was progressive and revealed to humankind in stages,
that the religions of the world are actually all part of the ONE religion,
that religion was not about imprisoning people within a belief structure but about liberating the thoughts from superstition and a self focus,
that the various races of people are like flowers in a garden, the garden is more beautiful with a variety rather than a monoculture,
that the Return of Jesus was not going to be on a cloud (gracious God, what sort of childish spectacle do people attribute to Christ?!?) but that the "cloud" was the obscuring of the Sun of Truth, and that Persia in the middle of the 1800s represented the most clouded or veiled part of the earth.
that we would not all climb out of our graves like some B grade zombie movie but that our invisible souls ascend to the eternal spiritual realm after abandoning the body at death
that there was no Satan except the satan of self
that "heaven" and "hell" are not places but conditions of the soul
that I am not "saved" because I say that I believe in Christ or Muhammad but I am "saved" because I love God and try my best to do His will, and that is to love all humankind, even my sworn enemies.
This is a picture of the Indian Baha'i Lotus temple and the grounds around it:

]

Posted by: TheTruth Aug 14 2006, 10:50 AM



And all this time I thought the pharaoh's were males...

Posted by: razorback Aug 14 2006, 03:43 PM

How comes most of you - believers - are so picky on facts and evidence regarding the 911 event and accept all this BS from religious books?

The Earth is flat, doesn't rotate around the Sun and is 6000 years old. These are facts, right? I hope so because otherwise you have blood in your hands.

In America atheists are considered WORST than muslims - They deserve to die. Oh yeah? Like the millions of Indians that Christians slaughtered before establishing their religious power?

I recommend to watch "30 days" - third episode - where an atheist goes to a christian family. Freeeaaakkkyyyy.

Anyway, I'm not against any religions. What I'm saying in that religious people should keep their faith for themselves. We'll have no more wars and f*ckers like Bush won't be elected in the future.

Just like for this 911 event, we don't know what happened 2000 years ago. We have some clues, rumors and lies. So, investigate first!!!

Anti 911 truth movements and religious people have something in common: they have been brainwashed since day 1.

Ok, that said you guys can throw stones at me.

Posted by: Sun Zoo Aug 14 2006, 03:54 PM

It all depends on how you look at it. If you believe deeply in principals, and the ebodimement of life with spirit, then you essentially believe in God, as the "light of life" which I interpret to mean God consciousness or the most essential "I AM" of being and becoming.

Posted by: Sun Zoo Aug 14 2006, 04:01 PM

The oughtness of the isness of being, that is God's will, from what is, to what shall be, from end to end and the first/last cause and the prime mover of existence. Alpha and Omega.

I believe that life is an eternally progressive recurrence wherein only the good fruit that lasts is retained and bottled up, from level to level, unto the infinite Godhead.

However, love to BE love, must express or communicate itself in action, and that is, at least in my belief, the root and source of Christianity, which is the expression of the Love of God, through a human familial relationship, where sin is a multi-generational degenerative disorder of both nature and nurture (blood and family).

If true then the implications are absolute astounding in no uncertain terms.

And we do indeed live within a quantum holographic universe in which the distinctions between mind/body and reality are very blurred and functioning relative to one indivisible NON-LOCALITY.

To me, Christianity is there to help keep us laughing like little children, when we run up smack dab against the utter absurdity, and insult, of life's injustice, for which a price must always be paid.

Read some Gurdjieff
http://www.gurdjieff.org/ and you'll understand where I am coming from about this.

Posted by: razorback Aug 14 2006, 04:01 PM

Hi Sun Zoo! First, I like you and your posts.. But do you really understand what you're saying? Next you'll tell me: hey, you have five fingers therefore you believe in a God, mine especially.

Posted by: Sun Zoo Aug 14 2006, 04:02 PM

A rational basis for Christian faith? You bet.

Posted by: razorback Aug 14 2006, 04:06 PM





See? That's the result of a well done brainwashing process.

Posted by: Sun Zoo Aug 14 2006, 04:11 PM

All I am saying in essence is this.

You, and I, are a subjective observer and are, therefore, imprisoned in a type of subjective prison, from which we cannot stand apart from ourselves and effectively measure our true worth, or lack thereof.

We are flawed. We think and do things that are out of alignment with what is perfect for us, for our happiness and satisfaction. We sin all of us.

We are also emeshed within history, entangled with the whole of it all.

Thus, we are forever doomed, if the universe is infinite (eternal recurrance) to be locked up in a self reinforcing subjective experience of history (namely, family history, as the origin and source of our existence, from the individual to the collective) wherein we may, and often do, delude ourselves, that we know just who we really are, since "neurosis is always the substitute, for legitamet suffering".

To be "treated" to the core in terms of this, we require a demonstration, and a proclamation (model of leadership). Without the model we are lost. With it, we have a guiding light, an ideal.

Jesus was either a madman, a bad man, or, he was a good and honest man. However, given what he said, and said about himself specifically, and his role in relation to us, we are forced to conclude that he was entirely sane, and entirely good.

In my view, it's an inescapable conclusion, and a very good one, since it releases us from the bondage of sin and evil, at a point in time and history who's purpose was to be generative of our next step up in human evolution - rising conscious awareness about just how Good God is, and how good he is to us as a wholly Loving God - asigning to us in the process, a value of infinite measure, as a true prodigal son.

I see in the parables, levels of depth in the myth and metaphor and the archetype or story, which are almost unfathonable and unfathonably beautiful.

Posted by: .... Aug 14 2006, 04:11 PM

To be is to be percieved. In short, we're all f*cked. We need help from a source greater than self. Self is not and cannot be God.

In the end, the athiest must and is forced to argue, for his/her non-existence.

Posted by: razorback Aug 14 2006, 05:42 PM



That's the other way around, dude. Prove that your God does exist. Show me the evidence. So far what we know is that your God is suck at almost everything. He can't even control the weather - Look at all the death from the tsunamis and hurricanes !!! Almighty, huh?

Anyway, religion is about money and power, and Bush knows that so well. Adding a religious comment on the dollar bill ( in 1953 ) couldn't be more self explanatory.

Oh well, I'm off now

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 14 2006, 07:15 PM




Ok back...what's new?

This caught my eye.

SunZoo you mean "tribal" right, not trible? Care to establish the Qur`an being tribal only?

You then mention that Christianity (Pauline) being an extension to humanity. Jesus preached a renaissance form of Judaism. Paul who never met Jesus in flesh established the religion, Christianity, to humanity based on a vision. Along with that and the Gospels being conglomerated and formulated centuries later, authenticity becomes the issue. I will stop here, as I don't want to create a discord.

Islam was a religion meant for all of humanity. There are proofs in the Qur`an to establish this. Unlike Jesus, Muhammad's teachings were preserved during his lifetime. Hence, abrogation was not needed to further this religion.

Posted by: Sanders Aug 14 2006, 08:39 PM



No prob -

I basically agree with all of the above - (notice, all of what I touced on was posed as a question.) But even if the world is dancing at the end of the "Zionists banker's" puppet strings, does that let everyone off the hook? If you talk to Americans about the slaughter of the American Indian tribes they will say, that was a different time, Americans aren't like that now. But Americans back then were played by both State and Federal propoganda campains to paint Indians as savages to make people go out of their way to kill them. Many indian tribes violently resisted encroachment onto their lands, but the authorities (for example the Governor of Georgia in the case of the Cherokees, who were a peaceful tribe) actively caused trouble to force confrontation. Sound familiar? Americans now are falling for the same ruse. There are always two bad guys - the puppeteers, and 'ignorance' - ignorance of the fact that people are being played, and their own ignorance of the people they are being conditioned to regard as a "savage", or a "terrorist".

I mentioned the Khazar issue specifically because the Zionist bankers you refered to are Ashkenazi, or Khazar jews. There is some controversy as to whether the descendents of this people, who outnumber all the other jews in Israel, have any genetic claim to the holy land - and whether that's even relevant or not is even debatable. The incompetence of various Palestinian leaders is also a factor in us winding up in the place we're in, so I mentioned that too. Why the Zionist Neocon cabal chose a Christian fundamentalist to head up their administration is an amusement to me, it's bizarre.

In sum, Carey, I love asking these questions - talking about them leads to clarity. I'm quite aware of the scenario you outlined, that religion is being pitched against religion at the whim of powerful banking dynasties - and - in my opinion - their strongest weapon is our ignorance. That's why I started this thread I guess. (P.S. I am not religious.)

Posted by: Sanders Aug 14 2006, 08:41 PM

Hey Sun Zoo - nice sig

Posted by: Cary Aug 14 2006, 09:57 PM



Okay, I'm back. LOL I lied about not coming back. Sue me. This is the second time I've even been on this thread. When did I say I don't believe in God? Never did. All I said was "Organized religion is for weak minded people," a quote from Jesse Ventura.

It's the ORGANIZED religions that I have a problem with. No, I'm not an atheist. I believe in God or a Creator. We didn't just show up out of nothing.

ORGANIZED religions are filled with dogma used to control the masses is the point of my Jesse Ventura quote. That's all. Don't your panties up in a wad. Look at all the hate and genocide that has been committed "in the name of God." God, Jesus, Mohammed, whomever would kick the sh*t out of the people who have committed genocide in their name if they were here and gave much of a sh*t. They don't give a sh*t while it's going on, is my take. They're just laughing their ass off about the bullshit that occurs in their name and are waiting for these goobers to show up in the after life. Payback is a bitch.

Sanders, love your posts. I'll try to stay the hell outta here. ORGANIZED religion is one topic I get into trouble with all the time. LMAO.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 15 2006, 12:08 AM




Razorback, I would never throw stones at you for expressing your sincere beliefs. Your beliefs are to be respected, whatever they may be, and your right to express them is to be upheld.

The comments you made have much validity. There are many superstitions in the religions, particularly where people have taken the scriptures literally. In the Baha'i Faith science and religion must go hand in hand. Therefore, those statements in the scriptures that oppose an intelligent and scientific mind need to be understood as parables and metaphors.

It is said that Jesus will return on a cloud. Baha'is understand this to mean that He will come to a part of the earth that is "clouded" from the "Sun" of enlightenment. We believe that He did return in 1844, to Persia, which was a backward country of great superstition, corruption and tyranny. Of course we don't believe that the physical body of Christ returned but that the essential Reality of Christ appeared in another Messenger from the Unknowable Essence.

I would urge you to maintain your skepticism for religion. I feel that for too long sons have followed their fathers religion with little thought for what is Truth. The first principle of the Baha'i Faith is independent investigation of Truth. You appear to have a good grasp of that principle, both in your views on religion and as a truther.

Posted by: razorback Aug 15 2006, 03:00 AM

Thanks Daniels.

I'll keep your post in mind next time I meet one of my great neighbors.

The old woman believes that Arnold (The Terminator) is the Anti-Christ, the other one wanted to take our 4 years old to her Church in order to "save" her and the third one (a muslim) can't look at my wife because women are dirty, he finally admitted it to me.

And when I go to work "I shall not forget that we are running this business for the love of GOD".

Yes, I live in Texas. Yeeeeeeeeehhhhhawwwwww.

I'm soooo gonna go back to the civilization soon. haha.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 15 2006, 04:40 AM



Gracious Razorback.

You really do live in a strange place!

Had a great laugh over that post. [laugh]

Posted by: Sinewy Aug 15 2006, 06:13 AM




To clarify for others:

In Islam the pattern ends with Muhammad, due to the importance of the verse in the Qur`an: "Wa Laaker-Rasulallahi wa Khataman Nabiiyiin" (33:40). This translates into: But (he is) the Apostle of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets.

There are traditions (hadith) to indicate as well to confirm that Muhammad was the last prophet.

Semantics came to redefine what "Khatam" means. Khatam means seal, finish, end. Now the Ahmadi and Qadiani movements arose and stated that it didn't indicate the finality of prophethood. An argument that they use in their literature is Jesus's return. Similarily, Orthodox Islam rejects Baha`ullah due to the seal of prophethood ending with Muhammad.

Posted by: Daniels August 15, 2006



Yes indeed, Sinewy, fellow truther and esteemed believer in our omnipotent Creator. Orthodox Islam rejects Baha'u'llah just as orthodox Christianity rejects Muhammad, orthodox Judaism rejects Christ, etc. I guess if Muslims didn't reject Baha'u'llah they'd be Baha'is. Hundreds of thousands in Iran have accepted Baha'u'llah as the Promised One but there are a couple of billion Muslims in the world.

Indeed, Baha'is accept and proclaim the truth of Muhammad's station as, "The Seal of the Prophets".

What is questioned is the interpretation of those words. As Baha'u'llah says, "...empty thyself of all learning, that thou mayest partake of My knowledge..."

If we already "know" what "The Seal of the Prophets" means then we will deny Baha'u'llah as the Promised One. However, if we accept that the verse may have meanings other than its obvious, outward meaning, then we may partake of His knowledge.

Baha'is believe that we have just been through a Great Cycle that we call the "Adamic Cycle". All of the holy Prophets from Adam up to Muhammad have been part of that Adamic Cycle of 6,000 years duration.

The next cycle is the "Cycle of Maturity" where humankind, having attained the stage of maturity, will develop as "an adult" for the next 500,000 years.

All the holy Prophets leading up Baha'u'llah, the Promised One, were prophesizing (Prophets) this Promised One, and this Great Age that we are privileged to live in.

Thus, from a Baha'i perspective, Muhammad is indeed the Seal of the Prophets because he is the last Prophet of the Adamic Cycle. He "Sealed" that Great Cycle in preparation for Baha'u'llah to open the Great Cycle of our time -- the "Cycle of Maturity" of humankind.

There is a tradition that states that all knowledge consists of 27 letters. Until the Promised One arrives only 2 letters of knowledge have been released. Once He arrives, the remaining 25 letters of knowledge will be released.

Ever wondered why our sciences have skyrocketed in the past couple of centuries?

This is a picture of part of the Arc on Mt Carmel. There are four Baha'i administrative buildings arranged in an arc. The distant building is the International Archives Building, taken from the Center for the Study of the Texts.

Posted by: Sanders August 15 2006


OK, I've waited a few days, no one had much to add about the 1st few centuries of Christianity so I'll cap and move on -

The Romans persecuted the Jews and Christians, fed them to the lions
Christianity flourished underground, the Roman empire waned, Constantine (the emperor at Constantinople) made Christianity the official language, held the Council of Nicea to sort out theoretical differences, the believers in the Trinity won.

I'll elaborate more on the fall of the Roman Empire to the Goths, the rise of Christianity in Europe, and the migration of the Jews outward from Israel (all important - any help would be appreciated)

We're on to Mohammed. Go guys, explain in laymans terms who Mohammed was and how Islam got started...

(BTW, I asked about the Ka'ab rites earlier, I still don't understand what that is all about...)

Posted by: Daniels Aug 15 2006, 12:52 PM


ISLAM
The land of Arabia was inhabited by a barbaric and warlike tribal people who had some quite repulsive customs such as the burying alive of their firstborn daughters — which they thought to be a meritorious deed.

Muslims refer to these times prior to Muhammad as “The Days of Ignorance”.

As the holy Prophet of God always appears on earth in the most clouded and backward region, Muhammad arose in Arabia.

He faced fierce persecution by His fanatical countrymen, to the extent that He allowed His followers to use the sword in defense of the community of believers.

The Koran was dictated by Muhammad to an amanuensis and inscribed on sheep shoulder bones and velum, making it the first Holy Book to be dictated directly by the Messenger of God Himself. This is why the Koran is esteemed to be the indisputable Word of God.

Previous Holy Books were written by the followers of the Holy Prophet sometime after they were uttered by Him. This has led to mistakes creeping in. Mistakes such as where Jesus is recorded as having complained to God on the cross, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? (King James Bible, Mark 15:34) According to Bahá’í belief, it is impossible for the holy Prophet of God to question the Unknowable Essence for even a moment. Therefore, it can be assumed that He was misheard and that He actually said something more in the order of, “My God, my god, how thou hast glorified Me”.

Posted by: Daniels Aug 15 2006, 01:02 PM


ISLAM
"...by the widespread rays of His consummate wisdom, His universal knowledge, those savage denizens of Medina and Mecca, miraculously, and in so brief a time, were drawn out of the depths of their ignorance, rose up to the pinnacles of learning, and became centers of arts and sciences and human perfections, and stars of felicity and true civilization, shining across the horizons of the world."

Posted by: Sun Zoo Aug 15 2006, 01:10 PM

Christians believe that at that moment Jesus experienced total seaparation from God as the embodiment of sin, and that it is there, at that point, on ALL points, that our separation from God is removed through his sacrificial atonement offering. Most of us also believe that Jesus was also fully human as much as he was divine (filled with the holy spirit of God).

Sometimes I find is sad, and even disturbing, that people always want to put their own spin on it, and in doing so, place limits on the act itself in terms of its meaning and it's importance and significance.

Just how Jesus could take on responsibility for the sins of the world is another matter and would take some work to try to illuminate, but suffice to say, there is always a price to pay and in some things we need help from a power and source of life greater than our self.

THe cross of Christ is a gateway, where all evil became relative to the victim, and all goodness, mercy, truth and justice, the only absolutes that we can be absolutely certain of at the end of the day.

I see Jesus as God communication through humanity born of Love and the desire to see all God's children re-united in himself and one to the other.