Posted by: Sinewy Sep 2 2006, 05:11 AM
Seljuk Turks were actually the ancestors of present day turks today. They were of Oghuz Turks. Lev Gumilev, a noted historian, stated that Oghuz Turks were of original caucasoid stock. There are Turks all over Turkey, Turkmenistan, Azeribaijan, and even there are Turks in Afghanistan---Sultan Mahmud Ghaznawi was, and perhaps is, the most popular Turk in Afghanistan's history.
Full Version: Sanders' Religion Thread
Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Sep 2 2006, 05:23 AM
I really liked what you wrote, except I was not sure about this one sentence. I've read countless other reports that it was Prophet Adam (pbuh) who built the Kab`ah. Is this true, or was it Prophet Abraham (pbuh)? Or did Prophet Abraham (pbuh) rebuild it?
An answer would be nice.
The Hajar al Aswad (Black stone) is embedded in the lower corner of the Kab`ah and its relevancy was that it fell during the Adam and Eve's time. The Kab`ah was originally built by Adam, then later on rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael, then during Muhammad's time it was refined even more (absolvement of idols was one part).
Thanks, that helps.
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Sep 2 2006 @ 01:00 AM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 31 2006 @ 04:23 PM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Aug 28 2006 @ 01:01 AM)
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Aug 26 2006 @ 05:00 PM)
These same people would cater to the notion that Abraham performed them due to their belief that Abraham built the Kab`ah, and that they descended from his son Ishma`el.
I really liked what you wrote, except I was not sure about this one sentence. I've read countless other reports that it was Prophet Adam (pbuh) who built the Kab`ah. Is this true, or was it Prophet Abraham (pbuh)? Or did Prophet Abraham (pbuh) rebuild it?
An answer would be nice.
The Hajar al Aswad (Black stone) is embedded in the lower corner of the Kab`ah and its relevancy was that it fell during the Adam and Eve's time. The Kab`ah was originally built by Adam, then later on rebuilt by Abraham and Ishmael, then during Muhammad's time it was refined even more (absolvement of idols was one part).
Thanks, that helps.
Posted by: Sanders Sep 2 2006, 05:25 AM
(Edit: be sure to read the last part of the quote from the second article - it really ties the Caliphs, the rise of Islam, and the dominance of the Seljuk Turks stuff together succinctly - leading us right up to the first Crusade)
http://bopedia.com/en/wikipedia/s/se/seljuk_turks.html
And this little article filled in a lot of holes for me...
http://www.metrocast.net/~moza/redbeast.htm
(Edit: be sure to read the last part of the quote from the second article - it really ties the Caliphs, the rise of Islam, and the dominance of the Seljuk Turks stuff together succinctly - leading us right up to the first Crusade)
QUOTE
The Seljuks were a major branch of the Oghuz (or ?uz) Turks that lived in Central Asia in the 9th to 13th century. The Seljuks migrated into western Asia in the 10th century while fighting with various tribes on their way. They accepted Sunni Islam and founded dynasties in Persia, Mesopotamia, Syria and Anatolia. The Seljuk Empire's lands covered approximately today's Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Turkey, all of the Middle East and a part of the Arabian peninsula. An Oghuz bey (chief) called Seljuk (Seldjuq) was the founder of the dynasty. His son led the Seljuks during the migration and his grandson, To?rül (Tughril), conquered Persia and occupied Baghdad. He died in 1063 in favour of his nephew (the great-grandson of Seljuk), Alp Arslan, who invaded Anatolia at the Battle of Manzikert in the 1070s.
Seljuk Turks can be regarded as the ancestors of Western Turks (today's Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Azerbaijan). They and their descendants (i.e., the Ottoman Empire) played a major role in medieval times by setting a barrier against the Mongol onslaught, defending the Islamic world against Crusaders and bringing an end to the Byzantine Empire. The fact that they embraced Sunni Islam and defended it with an irresistible power is one of the reasons why this branch is the major and most populous division of Islam.
Seljuk Turks can be regarded as the ancestors of Western Turks (today's Turkey, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Azerbaijan). They and their descendants (i.e., the Ottoman Empire) played a major role in medieval times by setting a barrier against the Mongol onslaught, defending the Islamic world against Crusaders and bringing an end to the Byzantine Empire. The fact that they embraced Sunni Islam and defended it with an irresistible power is one of the reasons why this branch is the major and most populous division of Islam.
http://bopedia.com/en/wikipedia/s/se/seljuk_turks.html
And this little article filled in a lot of holes for me...
QUOTE
The center of stone worship was Mecca. The city was situated in a convenient place along the trade routes and merchants would stop to perform the rituals associated with the Kaaba and its sacred Black Stone.
"Kaaba means a square structure, and is one with our word cube. In the belief of orthodox Moslems, the Kaaba was built or rebuilt ten times. The first was erected at the dawn of history by angels from heaven; the second by Adam; the third by his son Seth; the fourth by Abraham and his son Ishmael by Hagar.. the eighth by the Quraish leaders in Mohammed's lifetime (605); the ninth and tenth by Moslem leaders in 681 and 696... In its southeast corner, five feet from the ground, just right for kissing, is embedded the Black Stone, of dark red material, oval in shape, some seven inches in diameter. Many of its worshipers believe that this stone was sent down from heaven--and perhaps it was a meteorite; most of them believe that it has been a part of the Kaaba since Abraham.
...Jerusalem became the third holiest site in Islam because of Mohammed's vision that "he was miraculously transported in his sleep to Jerusalem; there a winged horse, Buraq, awaited him at the Wiling Wall of the Jewish Temple ruins, flew him to heaven, and back again; and by another miracle the Prophet found himself, the next morning, safe in his Mecca bed."
Because of the infighting between the Hashimites and the Umayyas of the Quraish, Mohammed was forced to flee Mecca to Yathrib (renamed Medina "City of the Prophet"). ...After many years in Medina, Mohammed made a ten year truce with those in Mecca, but the fighting started up again after only two years. He entered Mecca unopposed (because of the number of his army), declared a general amnesty, destroyed the idols in and around the Kaaba, but spared the Black stone and sanctioned the kissing of it. He proclaimed Mecca the Holy City of Islam and stated that no unbeliever should ever be allowed to set foot on its sacred ground. After this conquest, all of Arabia submitted to his authority.
...After Mohammed's death Islam was ruled by Caliphs ("representatives") and there were a succession of those who went out and either converted the vanquished, made them pay tribute or slaughtered them--those were the 3 choices. At the beginning (630s), Syria was the base of the spreading Moslem empire. A few of these caliphs seem to have favored dying their white beards red (with no explanation why). The Hashimite and Umayyad clans were still feuding and around 661 the Umayyad were victorious and took over the caliphate until 750.
The Abbasid caliphate ran from 750-1058 with the founder, Abu al-Abbas al-Saffah (the Bloodthirsty), ruling an empire "extending from the Indus to the Atlantic: Sind (northwest India), Baluchistan, Afghanistan, Turkestan, Persia, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Syria, Palestine, Cyprus, Crete, Egypt, and North Africa. Moslem Spain, however, rejected his authority..." This caliphate built a new capital at Baghdad....
...As the Abbasid caliphate ran down, many "Turks were employed in the armed forces of the state, as Germans had replaced Romans in the armies of Rome; and from al-Muntasir [a caliph] onward it was Turkish captains that made and unmade, commanded and murdered, the caliphs." The caliphs were forced to do the bidding of others and the "Commander of the Faithful became little more than the head of orthodox Islam."
The Turks, in turn, overran Islam: "Moving westward from Lake Baikal, the Turks of north central Asia organized themselves in the sixth century under a khan or chagan. Forging iron found in their mountains, they made weapons as hard as their code, which punished not only treason and murder, but adultery and cowardice, with death. The fertility of their women outran the mortality of their wars. By AD 1000 a branch of Turks known by the name of their beg or leader Seljuq dominated Transoxiana as well as Turkestan. Mahmud of Ghazni, thinking to halt this rival Turkish power, seized a son of Seljuq, and imprisoned him in India. Undaunted and enraged, the Seljuq Turks under the stern but masterful Tughril Beg took most of Persia, and paved their further advance by sending to the Caliph al-Qaim at Baghdad a deputation announcing their submission to him and Islam. The Caliph hoped that these fearless warriors might free him from his Buwayhid overlords; he invited Tughril Beg to come to his aid. Tughril came and the Buwayhids fled; al-Qaim married Tughril's niece, and made him 'King of the East and the West.' One by one the petty dynasties of Asiatic Islam crumbled before the Seljuqs, and acknowledge again the supremacy of Baghdad. The Seljuq rulers took the title of sultan--master--and reduce the caliphs to a merely religious role; but they brought to the government a new vigor and competence, and to Mohammedanism a new fervor of orthodox faith. They did not, like the Mongols two centuries later, destroy what they conquered; they rapidly absorbed the higher civilization, unified into a new empire what had been the scattered members of a dying state, and gave it the strength to endure and survive that long duel, between Christianity and Islam, which we know as the Crusades."
"Kaaba means a square structure, and is one with our word cube. In the belief of orthodox Moslems, the Kaaba was built or rebuilt ten times. The first was erected at the dawn of history by angels from heaven; the second by Adam; the third by his son Seth; the fourth by Abraham and his son Ishmael by Hagar.. the eighth by the Quraish leaders in Mohammed's lifetime (605); the ninth and tenth by Moslem leaders in 681 and 696... In its southeast corner, five feet from the ground, just right for kissing, is embedded the Black Stone, of dark red material, oval in shape, some seven inches in diameter. Many of its worshipers believe that this stone was sent down from heaven--and perhaps it was a meteorite; most of them believe that it has been a part of the Kaaba since Abraham.
...Jerusalem became the third holiest site in Islam because of Mohammed's vision that "he was miraculously transported in his sleep to Jerusalem; there a winged horse, Buraq, awaited him at the Wiling Wall of the Jewish Temple ruins, flew him to heaven, and back again; and by another miracle the Prophet found himself, the next morning, safe in his Mecca bed."
Because of the infighting between the Hashimites and the Umayyas of the Quraish, Mohammed was forced to flee Mecca to Yathrib (renamed Medina "City of the Prophet"). ...After many years in Medina, Mohammed made a ten year truce with those in Mecca, but the fighting started up again after only two years. He entered Mecca unopposed (because of the number of his army), declared a general amnesty, destroyed the idols in and around the Kaaba, but spared the Black stone and sanctioned the kissing of it. He proclaimed Mecca the Holy City of Islam and stated that no unbeliever should ever be allowed to set foot on its sacred ground. After this conquest, all of Arabia submitted to his authority.
...After Mohammed's death Islam was ruled by Caliphs ("representatives") and there were a succession of those who went out and either converted the vanquished, made them pay tribute or slaughtered them--those were the 3 choices. At the beginning (630s), Syria was the base of the spreading Moslem empire. A few of these caliphs seem to have favored dying their white beards red (with no explanation why). The Hashimite and Umayyad clans were still feuding and around 661 the Umayyad were victorious and took over the caliphate until 750.
The Abbasid caliphate ran from 750-1058 with the founder, Abu al-Abbas al-Saffah (the Bloodthirsty), ruling an empire "extending from the Indus to the Atlantic: Sind (northwest India), Baluchistan, Afghanistan, Turkestan, Persia, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Syria, Palestine, Cyprus, Crete, Egypt, and North Africa. Moslem Spain, however, rejected his authority..." This caliphate built a new capital at Baghdad....
...As the Abbasid caliphate ran down, many "Turks were employed in the armed forces of the state, as Germans had replaced Romans in the armies of Rome; and from al-Muntasir [a caliph] onward it was Turkish captains that made and unmade, commanded and murdered, the caliphs." The caliphs were forced to do the bidding of others and the "Commander of the Faithful became little more than the head of orthodox Islam."
The Turks, in turn, overran Islam: "Moving westward from Lake Baikal, the Turks of north central Asia organized themselves in the sixth century under a khan or chagan. Forging iron found in their mountains, they made weapons as hard as their code, which punished not only treason and murder, but adultery and cowardice, with death. The fertility of their women outran the mortality of their wars. By AD 1000 a branch of Turks known by the name of their beg or leader Seljuq dominated Transoxiana as well as Turkestan. Mahmud of Ghazni, thinking to halt this rival Turkish power, seized a son of Seljuq, and imprisoned him in India. Undaunted and enraged, the Seljuq Turks under the stern but masterful Tughril Beg took most of Persia, and paved their further advance by sending to the Caliph al-Qaim at Baghdad a deputation announcing their submission to him and Islam. The Caliph hoped that these fearless warriors might free him from his Buwayhid overlords; he invited Tughril Beg to come to his aid. Tughril came and the Buwayhids fled; al-Qaim married Tughril's niece, and made him 'King of the East and the West.' One by one the petty dynasties of Asiatic Islam crumbled before the Seljuqs, and acknowledge again the supremacy of Baghdad. The Seljuq rulers took the title of sultan--master--and reduce the caliphs to a merely religious role; but they brought to the government a new vigor and competence, and to Mohammedanism a new fervor of orthodox faith. They did not, like the Mongols two centuries later, destroy what they conquered; they rapidly absorbed the higher civilization, unified into a new empire what had been the scattered members of a dying state, and gave it the strength to endure and survive that long duel, between Christianity and Islam, which we know as the Crusades."
http://www.metrocast.net/~moza/redbeast.htm
Posted by: Sinewy Sep 2 2006, 05:55 AM
One more note: The Fatimid Shi`a Seveners and the Roman Byzantine Empire were allies of each other, and both were against the Seljuk Sunni empire.
One more note: The Fatimid Shi`a Seveners and the Roman Byzantine Empire were allies of each other, and both were against the Seljuk Sunni empire.
Posted by: Sinewy Sep 16 2006, 05:50 PM
Bump. As Sanders requested.
I will give a response to some of the comments in the "Pope Benedict's Instigation thread."
Someone can start and take off from where we left.
I apologize once again for not participating in the rise and spread of Christianity along with discussing its fundamental concepts---due to time constraints I wasn't able. I have not forgotten, and I will mention something.
Bump. As Sanders requested.
I will give a response to some of the comments in the "Pope Benedict's Instigation thread."
Someone can start and take off from where we left.
I apologize once again for not participating in the rise and spread of Christianity along with discussing its fundamental concepts---due to time constraints I wasn't able. I have not forgotten, and I will mention something.
Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Sep 16 2006, 09:36 PM
I have no idea where we left off.
I have no idea where we left off.
Posted by: Sanders Sep 16 2006, 09:47 PM
Whooooh ! Revitaizzzeeed !
It's ALIIIVE !
Late 12th century.
We left off where Europe was all major-ly Christianized and the Church was the center of midieval life. The collection of Icons was rampant, various monesteric sects were becoming popular, meanwhile the Seljuk turks were throwing their weight around and had conquered Anatolia.
Pope Urban II calls for a "crusade" to take back (modern) Turkey, and while he's at it he asks all devout Christians (converted Franks and Goths to be exact) to stop their bickering, answer the calling and retrive the holy land from the infidel Moslems.
Have at it ...
Edit - whoops ! I mean late 11th century
Whooooh ! Revitaizzzeeed !
It's ALIIIVE !
Late 12th century.
We left off where Europe was all major-ly Christianized and the Church was the center of midieval life. The collection of Icons was rampant, various monesteric sects were becoming popular, meanwhile the Seljuk turks were throwing their weight around and had conquered Anatolia.
Pope Urban II calls for a "crusade" to take back (modern) Turkey, and while he's at it he asks all devout Christians (converted Franks and Goths to be exact) to stop their bickering, answer the calling and retrive the holy land from the infidel Moslems.
Have at it ...
Edit - whoops ! I mean late 11th century
Posted by: Sinewy Sep 18 2006, 10:53 AM
Bump
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...3949&st=0&#last
Bump
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_F...3949&st=0&#last
"In 1672, POPE CLEMENT X declared the altar of the Eucharistic Miracle a priveleged altar..."
A bit of 'Church History' from:
http://www.acfp2000.com/Miracles/eucharistic.html
A bit of 'Church History' from:
http://www.acfp2000.com/Miracles/eucharistic.html
Thanks Tocarm 
Very informative
You'll notice that the last post in this (reconstituted) thread by Sinewy was September 18, 2006.
Personally I probably can't spend much or any time on this thread in the near future, but since e-dog and I did import it I thought I'd leave it up here for people to read. The thread meanders into all sorts of areas, but for the most part covers the evolution of Jeudaeism, Christianity and Islam chronologically begining with Abraham. We got up to the onset of the first Crusade.
There weren't many knowlegable Christian contributors around when we were dealing with that aspect so it's a little lite in that department ... so thanks for the info Tocarm.
Cheers
Very informative
You'll notice that the last post in this (reconstituted) thread by Sinewy was September 18, 2006.
Personally I probably can't spend much or any time on this thread in the near future, but since e-dog and I did import it I thought I'd leave it up here for people to read. The thread meanders into all sorts of areas, but for the most part covers the evolution of Jeudaeism, Christianity and Islam chronologically begining with Abraham. We got up to the onset of the first Crusade.
There weren't many knowlegable Christian contributors around when we were dealing with that aspect so it's a little lite in that department ... so thanks for the info Tocarm.
Cheers
Dear Sanders,
Even since the time of the Apostles, the Faith that was entrusted to them to "preach and teach" to ALL the nations of our world had its OBSTINATE detractors, those who sought TO 'PROTEST' that which they were charged to give to mankind and those who wanted to mangle Christ's Own Revelation to mankind for their own aims, goals, agendas and benefit.
The Apostles had to put up with the JUDIAZERS, the GNOSTICS and every other manner of Cult/Sect within and throughout the then Roman Empire.
With respect to ISLAM, the Prophet Mohammed received his 'Christology' (the doctrinal study of Christ Himself) from a heretical JEWISH sect known as 'The Ebionites'. Go ahead. Research the 'Ebionities' on/over any Internet search engine.
So a HERETICAL 'protesting' Jewish sect - The Ebionites - teachs FALSE DOCTRINE about Christ Jesus to a wondering Arabian who, in turn, establishes his own religion - aka 'Islam'...and in Surah V of the Qu'ran Mohammed promotes the EBIONITES heretical/erroneous views on/about Christ Jesus to now countless millions of adherents of Islam.
How strange. How odd. How bewildering....that a heretical Apostolic teaching REJECTING Jewish sect ought to wind up teaching millions of MUSLIMS on/about the nature of Jesus Christ...
...and all the the current crop of JEWS throughout the world can do is but to PROMOTE HATE/VIOLENCE against all the peoples holding the Islam religion of the Prophet Mohammed!
Now that is an example of how ROYALLY SCREWED UP the entire world becomes WHEN one ROYALLY SCREWS UP God Incarnate's Own Divine Revelation of Himself He entrusted to His Apostles and to His Church!!!
Then throw the KABBALAHISTS, the many/varied HERMETIC orders, the ROSICRUCIANS, the MASONS, every odd-ball New Age Occult-based group into this mix ALONG WITH the 20,000+ "bible based/bible alone" denominations doing nothing different but then to DUPLICATE the actions/behavior of the early EBIONITES - and one winds up with a ROYAL GLOBAL >>MESS<< with, for and amongst 6 billion human beings currently alive and living on planet earth!
If people would finally >SHUT UP< and simply LISTEN TO and OBEY all things which Christ Himself told people TO LISTEN TO as well as TO OBEY, our human race might...just might..."have a fighting chance" for EVERYONE to have a wee bit of 'Taste of Heaven On Earth' precisely because the vast majority of people would be DOING GOD'S WILL >>HERE ON EARTH<< 'as it is in Heaven'!
But...people being what they are....what they WANT TO BE - pushy, arrogant, haughty....etc....we have a 'world' EXACTLY the way and in the manner THEY WANT FOR IT TO BE!
- tocarm
Even since the time of the Apostles, the Faith that was entrusted to them to "preach and teach" to ALL the nations of our world had its OBSTINATE detractors, those who sought TO 'PROTEST' that which they were charged to give to mankind and those who wanted to mangle Christ's Own Revelation to mankind for their own aims, goals, agendas and benefit.
The Apostles had to put up with the JUDIAZERS, the GNOSTICS and every other manner of Cult/Sect within and throughout the then Roman Empire.
With respect to ISLAM, the Prophet Mohammed received his 'Christology' (the doctrinal study of Christ Himself) from a heretical JEWISH sect known as 'The Ebionites'. Go ahead. Research the 'Ebionities' on/over any Internet search engine.
So a HERETICAL 'protesting' Jewish sect - The Ebionites - teachs FALSE DOCTRINE about Christ Jesus to a wondering Arabian who, in turn, establishes his own religion - aka 'Islam'...and in Surah V of the Qu'ran Mohammed promotes the EBIONITES heretical/erroneous views on/about Christ Jesus to now countless millions of adherents of Islam.
How strange. How odd. How bewildering....that a heretical Apostolic teaching REJECTING Jewish sect ought to wind up teaching millions of MUSLIMS on/about the nature of Jesus Christ...
...and all the the current crop of JEWS throughout the world can do is but to PROMOTE HATE/VIOLENCE against all the peoples holding the Islam religion of the Prophet Mohammed!
Now that is an example of how ROYALLY SCREWED UP the entire world becomes WHEN one ROYALLY SCREWS UP God Incarnate's Own Divine Revelation of Himself He entrusted to His Apostles and to His Church!!!
Then throw the KABBALAHISTS, the many/varied HERMETIC orders, the ROSICRUCIANS, the MASONS, every odd-ball New Age Occult-based group into this mix ALONG WITH the 20,000+ "bible based/bible alone" denominations doing nothing different but then to DUPLICATE the actions/behavior of the early EBIONITES - and one winds up with a ROYAL GLOBAL >>MESS<< with, for and amongst 6 billion human beings currently alive and living on planet earth!
If people would finally >SHUT UP< and simply LISTEN TO and OBEY all things which Christ Himself told people TO LISTEN TO as well as TO OBEY, our human race might...just might..."have a fighting chance" for EVERYONE to have a wee bit of 'Taste of Heaven On Earth' precisely because the vast majority of people would be DOING GOD'S WILL >>HERE ON EARTH<< 'as it is in Heaven'!
But...people being what they are....what they WANT TO BE - pushy, arrogant, haughty....etc....we have a 'world' EXACTLY the way and in the manner THEY WANT FOR IT TO BE!
- tocarm
"If people would finally >SHUT UP< and simply LISTEN TO and OBEY all things which Christ Himself told people TO LISTEN TO as well as TO OBEY, our human race might...just might..."have a fighting chance" for EVERYONE to have a wee bit of 'Taste of Heaven On Earth' precisely because the vast majority of people would be DOING GOD'S WILL >>HERE ON EARTH<< 'as it is in Heaven'!"
Well said tocarm
Mark 12:29-31
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Well said tocarm
Mark 12:29-31
29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
Where were we?
hahaha....
hahaha....
The Question ISN'T
"Where were we?" - hahaha
The Question is 'WHAT HAPPENS TO YOU WHEN YOU DIE?'
The other Questions are:
'WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE FIRST NUKES GO OFF IN THE MIDDLE EAST?'
'WHAT HAPPENS TO THE FLOW OF OIL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST?'
'WHAT HAPPENS WHEN FARMERS CAN'T PLANT THEIR CROPS BECAUSE THEIR IS NO FUEL?'
'WHAT HAPPENS TO THE MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE LIVING IN CITIES WHEN TRUCKERS CAN'T TRANSPORT WHATEVER FOOD THAT THE FARMERS MANAGED TO PLANT WITH THE VERY LITTLE FUEL THEY DID HAVE?'
Brain dead people who can only JEER at Divine/Supernatural Things and who can only LAUGH...
...HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...
"The Night Of The Living BRAIN Dead!"
.....go watch Brittney Spears cutting her hair - about your 'speed'
- tocarm
"Where were we?" - hahaha
The Question is 'WHAT HAPPENS TO YOU WHEN YOU DIE?'
The other Questions are:
'WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE FIRST NUKES GO OFF IN THE MIDDLE EAST?'
'WHAT HAPPENS TO THE FLOW OF OIL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST?'
'WHAT HAPPENS WHEN FARMERS CAN'T PLANT THEIR CROPS BECAUSE THEIR IS NO FUEL?'
'WHAT HAPPENS TO THE MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE LIVING IN CITIES WHEN TRUCKERS CAN'T TRANSPORT WHATEVER FOOD THAT THE FARMERS MANAGED TO PLANT WITH THE VERY LITTLE FUEL THEY DID HAVE?'
Brain dead people who can only JEER at Divine/Supernatural Things and who can only LAUGH...
...HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...
"The Night Of The Living BRAIN Dead!"
.....go watch Brittney Spears cutting her hair - about your 'speed'
- tocarm
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Feb 21 2007, 06:54 AM)
Where were we?
hahaha....
hahaha....
Taking a break I think - a 6 month break.
Specifically though, the onset of the crusades.
Human Nature - Human Society - Human History & "The Crusades"
US Troops violate international law and the US Constitution by invading Iraq - causing great infrastructure damage and destroying Iraqi culture. Iraqiis arm themselves and fight to drive out the invaders.
US Troops conduct a war in Viet Nam, causing great infrastructure damage and destroying Vietnamese culture. Vietnamese arm themselves to fight and drive out the invaders.
German Troops conduct 'Operation Barbarossa' against Russia, invading Russia across a 1,000 mile front, causing great infrastructure damage and destroying Russia culture in the process. Russian arm themselves to fight and drive out the invaders.
Human Nature & Human Society & Human History down through the centuries gives example after example of one 'social structure/society' invading another 'social structure/society'.
Caucasians on the North American continent repeatedly 'invaded' and 'destroyed' the social structures and society of any number of native Americans.
*****************************************************************
So, there is this political/social/religious movement initiated by one Arabian fellow by the name of Mohammed. No, his name was NOT Ghengis Khan or Hannibal or Julius Ceasar or Hitler or Lenin or Mao Tse Tung or George Bush - but like every other "historical figure" down through the centuries - he gets "his" people and "his" followers - by the use of naked violence and military force - to FORCE OTHERS INTO ADOPTING the type of 'World View' he would much more see imposed "by him" on his fellow man.
Sheeshhhh...just look at Chinese history. How many domestic/civil/rival WARS did they have to go through in order to 'settle' what Chinese culture would be and would become?
Anyways - the POINT OF THE MATTER I'd like to make here with an eye on "The Crusades" is that >>PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AGAINST UNJUST VIOLENCE & AGGRESSION<<!!!!
******************************************************************
Did you know that much of the continent of AFRICA - and in particular NORTHERN AFRICA - was predominantly >>CHRISTIAN<< prior to the rise of Mohammed's movement? There were in excess of 350 CHRISTIAN DIOCESES from one end of Northen Africa to the other. Why, St. Augustine of Hippo hailed from Carthage which was a vibrant center of Christianity during the times of the Roman Empire.
Now then, what are HUMAN BEINGS to do when they have these HORDES of sword brandishing horsemen swooping down upon your cities, upon your homes, upon your culture, your beliefs destroying all that you have worked for and for what you live for?
Do you just sit there like a DUMB AZZ and let them run roughshod over you?
Do you have a 'Right To Self-Defense'? Do you have a 'Right' to reclaim and obtain your LAWFUL POSSESSIONS???
****************************************************************
If all the SPINELESS so-called "christians" here in and throughout the USA had some >>B@LLS<<, they would have done something TO DEFEND their Nation, their culture, their beliefs, their economic/financial welfare & well being - just as THE CRUSADERS had THE B@LLS to do against Mohammed's movement - our US Nation and this entire world would NOT be in the very find pre-thermonuclear Third World War >MESS< that it is in.
But for the array of so-called "christians" in the USA - their Nation and the entire world can "go to thermonuclear HELL" because what is important to them NOW are such things a promoting same-sex marriages, ordination of women and other such "VITAL ISSUES" which all seem TO TRUMP getting off their STUPID LAZY AZZES in order "to fight for" seeing to it that God's Will gets done down here on earth - such Divine Concerns as JUSTICE and END OF POVERTY and PROMOTING MORALITY and buidling a JUST SOCIETY.
****************************************************************
But that is "soooo muchhhh workkkkk". Better to gather the SHEEP together every once in a while and suck out TITHES out of their pockets and send them off on their merry way telling them "God will take care of everything - just go watch TV, take your vacations, pad your bank accounts and stay away from controversies of every manner and kind while you make darn sure you SAY NOTHING which might be the least offensive to anyone at all!"
*****************************************************************
When it comes to discussions of 'Religion', in particularly the Catholic Church and the Catholic Faith - people AUTOMATICALLY bring up 'The Crusades' - and the INNER SPIRITUAL REASON why they do that is TO DEFLECT any sort of militant responsibility or militant response on THEIR OWN PARTS from doing ANY SORT of 'battle' to bring about Justice and restore people to their RIGHTFUL POSSESSIONS such as 1) their Faith 2) the Lands 3) their Possessions, etc.
******************************************************************
Go let the "U.S. Marines" and the "U.S. Armed Forces" SPILL THEIR BLOOD in keeping us all "comfy cozy defended and protected" while we watch our TVs, go on vacations, go watch the NFL, NBA, NHL, World Series, make our millions in real estate and day trading of stocks --- for you see, I'm "too busy" tending to my own personal creature comforts and luxuries to be concerned about such things as US national/political policy and what my US nation is doing its own citizens and the peoples throughout the world.
Yep, I suppose 'The Crusades' where about THE MOST HORRENDOUS EVIL ever perpetrated by those NASTY 'CHRISTIANS' back when one could employ all the MILITARY FORCE ONE WANTED against another peoples in order to get THEIR LANDS as wel as their NATURAL RESOURCES.
"God Bless America!" "God Bless the G.O.P.!" & "God Bless Bush!"
- tocarm
US Troops violate international law and the US Constitution by invading Iraq - causing great infrastructure damage and destroying Iraqi culture. Iraqiis arm themselves and fight to drive out the invaders.
US Troops conduct a war in Viet Nam, causing great infrastructure damage and destroying Vietnamese culture. Vietnamese arm themselves to fight and drive out the invaders.
German Troops conduct 'Operation Barbarossa' against Russia, invading Russia across a 1,000 mile front, causing great infrastructure damage and destroying Russia culture in the process. Russian arm themselves to fight and drive out the invaders.
Human Nature & Human Society & Human History down through the centuries gives example after example of one 'social structure/society' invading another 'social structure/society'.
Caucasians on the North American continent repeatedly 'invaded' and 'destroyed' the social structures and society of any number of native Americans.
*****************************************************************
So, there is this political/social/religious movement initiated by one Arabian fellow by the name of Mohammed. No, his name was NOT Ghengis Khan or Hannibal or Julius Ceasar or Hitler or Lenin or Mao Tse Tung or George Bush - but like every other "historical figure" down through the centuries - he gets "his" people and "his" followers - by the use of naked violence and military force - to FORCE OTHERS INTO ADOPTING the type of 'World View' he would much more see imposed "by him" on his fellow man.
Sheeshhhh...just look at Chinese history. How many domestic/civil/rival WARS did they have to go through in order to 'settle' what Chinese culture would be and would become?
Anyways - the POINT OF THE MATTER I'd like to make here with an eye on "The Crusades" is that >>PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO DEFEND THEMSELVES AGAINST UNJUST VIOLENCE & AGGRESSION<<!!!!
******************************************************************
Did you know that much of the continent of AFRICA - and in particular NORTHERN AFRICA - was predominantly >>CHRISTIAN<< prior to the rise of Mohammed's movement? There were in excess of 350 CHRISTIAN DIOCESES from one end of Northen Africa to the other. Why, St. Augustine of Hippo hailed from Carthage which was a vibrant center of Christianity during the times of the Roman Empire.
Now then, what are HUMAN BEINGS to do when they have these HORDES of sword brandishing horsemen swooping down upon your cities, upon your homes, upon your culture, your beliefs destroying all that you have worked for and for what you live for?
Do you just sit there like a DUMB AZZ and let them run roughshod over you?
Do you have a 'Right To Self-Defense'? Do you have a 'Right' to reclaim and obtain your LAWFUL POSSESSIONS???
****************************************************************
If all the SPINELESS so-called "christians" here in and throughout the USA had some >>B@LLS<<, they would have done something TO DEFEND their Nation, their culture, their beliefs, their economic/financial welfare & well being - just as THE CRUSADERS had THE B@LLS to do against Mohammed's movement - our US Nation and this entire world would NOT be in the very find pre-thermonuclear Third World War >MESS< that it is in.
But for the array of so-called "christians" in the USA - their Nation and the entire world can "go to thermonuclear HELL" because what is important to them NOW are such things a promoting same-sex marriages, ordination of women and other such "VITAL ISSUES" which all seem TO TRUMP getting off their STUPID LAZY AZZES in order "to fight for" seeing to it that God's Will gets done down here on earth - such Divine Concerns as JUSTICE and END OF POVERTY and PROMOTING MORALITY and buidling a JUST SOCIETY.
****************************************************************
But that is "soooo muchhhh workkkkk". Better to gather the SHEEP together every once in a while and suck out TITHES out of their pockets and send them off on their merry way telling them "God will take care of everything - just go watch TV, take your vacations, pad your bank accounts and stay away from controversies of every manner and kind while you make darn sure you SAY NOTHING which might be the least offensive to anyone at all!"
*****************************************************************
When it comes to discussions of 'Religion', in particularly the Catholic Church and the Catholic Faith - people AUTOMATICALLY bring up 'The Crusades' - and the INNER SPIRITUAL REASON why they do that is TO DEFLECT any sort of militant responsibility or militant response on THEIR OWN PARTS from doing ANY SORT of 'battle' to bring about Justice and restore people to their RIGHTFUL POSSESSIONS such as 1) their Faith 2) the Lands 3) their Possessions, etc.
******************************************************************
Go let the "U.S. Marines" and the "U.S. Armed Forces" SPILL THEIR BLOOD in keeping us all "comfy cozy defended and protected" while we watch our TVs, go on vacations, go watch the NFL, NBA, NHL, World Series, make our millions in real estate and day trading of stocks --- for you see, I'm "too busy" tending to my own personal creature comforts and luxuries to be concerned about such things as US national/political policy and what my US nation is doing its own citizens and the peoples throughout the world.
Yep, I suppose 'The Crusades' where about THE MOST HORRENDOUS EVIL ever perpetrated by those NASTY 'CHRISTIANS' back when one could employ all the MILITARY FORCE ONE WANTED against another peoples in order to get THEIR LANDS as wel as their NATURAL RESOURCES.
"God Bless America!" "God Bless the G.O.P.!" & "God Bless Bush!"
- tocarm
QUOTE (tocarm @ Feb 20 2007, 11:56 PM)
The Question ISN'T
"Where were we?" - hahaha
The Question is 'WHAT HAPPENS TO YOU WHEN YOU DIE?'
The other Questions are:
'WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE FIRST NUKES GO OFF IN THE MIDDLE EAST?'
'WHAT HAPPENS TO THE FLOW OF OIL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST?'
'WHAT HAPPENS WHEN FARMERS CAN'T PLANT THEIR CROPS BECAUSE THEIR IS NO FUEL?'
'WHAT HAPPENS TO THE MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE LIVING IN CITIES WHEN TRUCKERS CAN'T TRANSPORT WHATEVER FOOD THAT THE FARMERS MANAGED TO PLANT WITH THE VERY LITTLE FUEL THEY DID HAVE?'
Brain dead people who can only JEER at Divine/Supernatural Things and who can only LAUGH...
...HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...
"The Night Of The Living BRAIN Dead!"
.....go watch Brittney Spears cutting her hair - about your 'speed'
- tocarm
"Where were we?" - hahaha
The Question is 'WHAT HAPPENS TO YOU WHEN YOU DIE?'
The other Questions are:
'WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE FIRST NUKES GO OFF IN THE MIDDLE EAST?'
'WHAT HAPPENS TO THE FLOW OF OIL OUT OF THE MIDDLE EAST?'
'WHAT HAPPENS WHEN FARMERS CAN'T PLANT THEIR CROPS BECAUSE THEIR IS NO FUEL?'
'WHAT HAPPENS TO THE MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS OF PEOPLE LIVING IN CITIES WHEN TRUCKERS CAN'T TRANSPORT WHATEVER FOOD THAT THE FARMERS MANAGED TO PLANT WITH THE VERY LITTLE FUEL THEY DID HAVE?'
Brain dead people who can only JEER at Divine/Supernatural Things and who can only LAUGH...
...HA HA HA HA HA HA HA...
"The Night Of The Living BRAIN Dead!"
.....go watch Brittney Spears cutting her hair - about your 'speed'
- tocarm
Are you okay, or are you stupid?
QUOTE (Sanders @ Feb 21 2007, 05:45 AM)
QUOTE (Sinewy @ Feb 21 2007, 06:54 AM)
Where were we?
hahaha....
hahaha....
Taking a break I think - a 6 month break.
Specifically though, the onset of the crusades.
Biases would spread though I believe. After retrospect, I am hesitant that this may turn into, to reiterate your words in this thread, a "HOLY WAR"!
Anyone want to play? This is the game -
Religious HISTORY. No PREACHING.
I tried very hard to keep this thread focused on the History of the 3 Abrahamic religions (Jeudaism, Christianity, Islam), as apart from the "passion" - passion is important, I consider even myself a passionate person, and we are all passionate about what we personally are passionate about - passion is what keeps us all alive - but passion alone doesn't do it - and passion, in the forms of blind patriotism and religious fervor threaten to tear our world apart. That's the reason d'etre for this thread.
Passion is the easy part - understanding the roots of what you or I do or don't believe, or what others do or don't believe, well, that takes a bit of work. But it's interesting, it opens your eyes, it's absolutely liberating.
I'm not even a religious person per se - but I so love this topic.
My apologies for not responding earlier -
That's interesting to say the least (!). I've never even heard of the Ebionites, so I can't offer anything. (Curious what take some of our Muslim friends might have on that.)
Forgive me, back to Topic...
This thread meanders all over the place, and admittedly it would take a lot of time to read all of what's in it, but within these 25 pages we somehow managed to cover the couple thousand years begining with Abraham up until the onset of the first crusade... Moses, the 12 tribes of Israel, David, Solomon, the Exodus, the birth of Christianity, the destruction of Jeruselum by Rome, Mohammed & the birth of Islam, Constantine, council of Nicea... it's all in there. Every word was copied and pasted, every photo was re-uploaded, every bolded and colored text in every post in these 25 pages was recreated here by e-dog and I so that this thread could live or die here at P4T. We did it simply for posterity - I don't care so much if the thread lives or dies - but since we're here, I'll kick it off.
If you are confused about where we are, back up a few pages and catch up.
In the 11th century the Seljuk Turks (we all fiqured out who the Seljuk Turks were earlier in the thread - probably 5 pages back) invaded and conquered Anatolia, the eastern part of the Byzantine Empire (modern Turkey). The Eastern Roman Empire was in grave danger of being overidden, and so Pope Urban II called out to the rulers of Europe (descendants of the Barbarians who overthrew the Roman empire and their subjects who had by now all converted to Christianity) to stop fighting each other and take up arms and march into Byzantium and wrest Anatolia from the "infidels"... And while they were at it that they should try and take back the Holy Land as well.
This was a period where the Christian Church had become absolutely central to everyone's way of life - every hamlet had a church, gothic cathedrals were being built in cities around Europe with the money of nobles trying to buy their way into heaven, sects of monks had sprung up everywhere... the response to Urban's call to arms was enormous, it's been estimated that 150,000 people answered the call and headed toward Constantinople - which was alot in those days... The princess of Constantinople, Anna Comnena, remarked that it was as if "the whole West...was bursting forth into Asia in a solid mass, with all its belongings."
It's been about 10 years since I read up on all this, and I can't remember the details ... but I remember that the story of the crusaders and their first campaign in modern-day Turkey is extremely interesting. Rather than re-dig up all this history, I'll leave it up to anyone who wants to pick up the torch.
Religious HISTORY. No PREACHING.
I tried very hard to keep this thread focused on the History of the 3 Abrahamic religions (Jeudaism, Christianity, Islam), as apart from the "passion" - passion is important, I consider even myself a passionate person, and we are all passionate about what we personally are passionate about - passion is what keeps us all alive - but passion alone doesn't do it - and passion, in the forms of blind patriotism and religious fervor threaten to tear our world apart. That's the reason d'etre for this thread.
Passion is the easy part - understanding the roots of what you or I do or don't believe, or what others do or don't believe, well, that takes a bit of work. But it's interesting, it opens your eyes, it's absolutely liberating.
I'm not even a religious person per se - but I so love this topic.
QUOTE (tocarm)
With respect to ISLAM, the Prophet Mohammed received his 'Christology' (the doctrinal study of Christ Himself) from a heretical JEWISH sect known as 'The Ebionites'. Go ahead. Research the 'Ebionities' on/over any Internet search engine.
So a HERETICAL 'protesting' Jewish sect - The Ebionites - teachs FALSE DOCTRINE about Christ Jesus to a wondering Arabian who, in turn, establishes his own religion - aka 'Islam'...and in Surah V of the Qu'ran Mohammed promotes the EBIONITES heretical/erroneous views on/about Christ Jesus to now countless millions of adherents of Islam.
How strange. How odd. How bewildering....that a heretical Apostolic teaching REJECTING Jewish sect ought to wind up teaching millions of MUSLIMS on/about the nature of Jesus Christ...
...and all the the current crop of JEWS throughout the world can do is but to PROMOTE HATE/VIOLENCE against all the peoples holding the Islam religion of the Prophet Mohammed!
So a HERETICAL 'protesting' Jewish sect - The Ebionites - teachs FALSE DOCTRINE about Christ Jesus to a wondering Arabian who, in turn, establishes his own religion - aka 'Islam'...and in Surah V of the Qu'ran Mohammed promotes the EBIONITES heretical/erroneous views on/about Christ Jesus to now countless millions of adherents of Islam.
How strange. How odd. How bewildering....that a heretical Apostolic teaching REJECTING Jewish sect ought to wind up teaching millions of MUSLIMS on/about the nature of Jesus Christ...
...and all the the current crop of JEWS throughout the world can do is but to PROMOTE HATE/VIOLENCE against all the peoples holding the Islam religion of the Prophet Mohammed!
My apologies for not responding earlier -
That's interesting to say the least (!). I've never even heard of the Ebionites, so I can't offer anything. (Curious what take some of our Muslim friends might have on that.)
Forgive me, back to Topic...
This thread meanders all over the place, and admittedly it would take a lot of time to read all of what's in it, but within these 25 pages we somehow managed to cover the couple thousand years begining with Abraham up until the onset of the first crusade... Moses, the 12 tribes of Israel, David, Solomon, the Exodus, the birth of Christianity, the destruction of Jeruselum by Rome, Mohammed & the birth of Islam, Constantine, council of Nicea... it's all in there. Every word was copied and pasted, every photo was re-uploaded, every bolded and colored text in every post in these 25 pages was recreated here by e-dog and I so that this thread could live or die here at P4T. We did it simply for posterity - I don't care so much if the thread lives or dies - but since we're here, I'll kick it off.
If you are confused about where we are, back up a few pages and catch up.
In the 11th century the Seljuk Turks (we all fiqured out who the Seljuk Turks were earlier in the thread - probably 5 pages back) invaded and conquered Anatolia, the eastern part of the Byzantine Empire (modern Turkey). The Eastern Roman Empire was in grave danger of being overidden, and so Pope Urban II called out to the rulers of Europe (descendants of the Barbarians who overthrew the Roman empire and their subjects who had by now all converted to Christianity) to stop fighting each other and take up arms and march into Byzantium and wrest Anatolia from the "infidels"... And while they were at it that they should try and take back the Holy Land as well.
This was a period where the Christian Church had become absolutely central to everyone's way of life - every hamlet had a church, gothic cathedrals were being built in cities around Europe with the money of nobles trying to buy their way into heaven, sects of monks had sprung up everywhere... the response to Urban's call to arms was enormous, it's been estimated that 150,000 people answered the call and headed toward Constantinople - which was alot in those days... The princess of Constantinople, Anna Comnena, remarked that it was as if "the whole West...was bursting forth into Asia in a solid mass, with all its belongings."
It's been about 10 years since I read up on all this, and I can't remember the details ... but I remember that the story of the crusaders and their first campaign in modern-day Turkey is extremely interesting. Rather than re-dig up all this history, I'll leave it up to anyone who wants to pick up the torch.
Religions - ALL religions - are the result of HISTORICAL events!
About the Ebioinites:
http://answering-islam.org/Index/E/ebionites.html
http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/Tisdall/Sources/notes3.htm
http://www.geocities.com/mikailtariq/christ.htm
The 'Judaism' practiced today IS NOT the 'Judaism' practiced in the time of Christ.
The proscriptions for 'sin offerings' at the hands of a Levitical priesthood in a properly consecrated Temple CEASED ALTOGETHER with the Roman's destroying the Jerusalem Temple back in 70 A.D. And whether or not those 'sin offerings' at the hands of the Levitical priesthood were even VALID in the time of Christ is questionable, since the Second Temple WAS NEVER >>PROPERLY CONSECRATED<< with the Ark of the Covenant hidden in the hills somewheres by the Prophet Jeremiah.
And if ISLAM doesn't get its theology correct with respect to the Person of Jesus, THE CHRIST, prophesize to be MOSES' OWN REPLACMENT per the Pentateuch' book of Deuteronomy, Dt. 18:15-19, then Islam as far off in 'left field' with respect to RELIGION as is the many forms of defunct Judaism in existance now in our contemporary world.
Deuteronomy 18:15-19:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...19;&version=31;
ANY FURTHER consideration of 'Religion' here which DOES NOT focus on or concern itself with THE VALIDITY, THE TRUTHFULNESS of that particular 'Religion' is simply a 'spinning of the wheels' - since every last person currently alive on planet earth CAN >>INVENT<< his, her, their own Brand Spanking 'New & Improved' Religion! And they can do THAT with either sober or drunk, cognizant or high on hallucinogenic drugs!
- tocarm
About the Ebioinites:
http://answering-islam.org/Index/E/ebionites.html
http://www.bible.ca/islam/library/Tisdall/Sources/notes3.htm
http://www.geocities.com/mikailtariq/christ.htm
The 'Judaism' practiced today IS NOT the 'Judaism' practiced in the time of Christ.
The proscriptions for 'sin offerings' at the hands of a Levitical priesthood in a properly consecrated Temple CEASED ALTOGETHER with the Roman's destroying the Jerusalem Temple back in 70 A.D. And whether or not those 'sin offerings' at the hands of the Levitical priesthood were even VALID in the time of Christ is questionable, since the Second Temple WAS NEVER >>PROPERLY CONSECRATED<< with the Ark of the Covenant hidden in the hills somewheres by the Prophet Jeremiah.
And if ISLAM doesn't get its theology correct with respect to the Person of Jesus, THE CHRIST, prophesize to be MOSES' OWN REPLACMENT per the Pentateuch' book of Deuteronomy, Dt. 18:15-19, then Islam as far off in 'left field' with respect to RELIGION as is the many forms of defunct Judaism in existance now in our contemporary world.
Deuteronomy 18:15-19:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...19;&version=31;
ANY FURTHER consideration of 'Religion' here which DOES NOT focus on or concern itself with THE VALIDITY, THE TRUTHFULNESS of that particular 'Religion' is simply a 'spinning of the wheels' - since every last person currently alive on planet earth CAN >>INVENT<< his, her, their own Brand Spanking 'New & Improved' Religion! And they can do THAT with either sober or drunk, cognizant or high on hallucinogenic drugs!
- tocarm
If we must not "preach" here, but rather dicuss THE HISTORY of religions without any concern for/with/over the accuracy and truthfulness of it's "doctrines" and it's "theology" - it is then best for everyone who wishes to participate in such a discussion by getting a pretty good community-college level TEXTBOOK on the myriad of world religions. I can offer a high recommendation for this particular book:
"A History of the World's Religions" - on-line reference at:
http://www.amazon.com/History-Worlds-Relig...h/dp/0130991651
Since every manner of unseen 'tension' is currently brewing in and amongst those of what is termed 'Judaism' and contemporary post-Protestant 'christianity' and Islam (either Sunni or Shi'ite variety) - perhaps folks would rather discuss the perseonal characters and personal traits of those who have "incorporated" their thoughts, concepts, aspirations, etc. into a world class 'religion'.
We can discuss the human traits, character and nature of those 'Founders' as listed here in the realm of 'world religion':
http://www.letusreason.org/Cult11.htm
And with all of this talk that the USA is some sort of 'christian' nation, we might consider what Professor Harold Bloom concludes in his book entitled "The American Religion - The Emergence of the Post-Christian Nation" - on-line ref:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Religion-Em...n/dp/067167997X
And since discussions about "Catholicism" pose just so much fun from so many from the ranks of atheists, gnostics, esoterics, hermetic orders, the occult, pagans, secular humanists and the entire spectrum of folks from any and all Protestant denominations, perhaps we might discuss the character, nature and personal traits of the founders of any and all Protestant 'denominations'. Make your choice from:
http://www.religion-cults.com/Christianity...nominations.htm
With respect to this 'hot topic' of religion, Jesus the Christ asked the following question to others about the nature, character and personal traits of and about Himself to His immediate contemporaries:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...15;&version=31;
To which Peter gives his answer:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...16;&version=31;
Now if you are talking to the Son of the Living God 'face-to-Face'...why on earth would you consider any other 'religion' in the entire world other than the one He Himself establishes here on earth?
- tocarm
"A History of the World's Religions" - on-line reference at:
http://www.amazon.com/History-Worlds-Relig...h/dp/0130991651
Since every manner of unseen 'tension' is currently brewing in and amongst those of what is termed 'Judaism' and contemporary post-Protestant 'christianity' and Islam (either Sunni or Shi'ite variety) - perhaps folks would rather discuss the perseonal characters and personal traits of those who have "incorporated" their thoughts, concepts, aspirations, etc. into a world class 'religion'.
We can discuss the human traits, character and nature of those 'Founders' as listed here in the realm of 'world religion':
http://www.letusreason.org/Cult11.htm
And with all of this talk that the USA is some sort of 'christian' nation, we might consider what Professor Harold Bloom concludes in his book entitled "The American Religion - The Emergence of the Post-Christian Nation" - on-line ref:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Religion-Em...n/dp/067167997X
And since discussions about "Catholicism" pose just so much fun from so many from the ranks of atheists, gnostics, esoterics, hermetic orders, the occult, pagans, secular humanists and the entire spectrum of folks from any and all Protestant denominations, perhaps we might discuss the character, nature and personal traits of the founders of any and all Protestant 'denominations'. Make your choice from:
http://www.religion-cults.com/Christianity...nominations.htm
With respect to this 'hot topic' of religion, Jesus the Christ asked the following question to others about the nature, character and personal traits of and about Himself to His immediate contemporaries:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...15;&version=31;
To which Peter gives his answer:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...16;&version=31;
Now if you are talking to the Son of the Living God 'face-to-Face'...why on earth would you consider any other 'religion' in the entire world other than the one He Himself establishes here on earth?
- tocarm
Thanks Tocarm, I've still only read about half of what you turned us on to, but, Educational stuff-
Dear Sanders,
You are probably the FIRST PERSON who has posted a "thank you" to me these past several years on the Internet in >TRYING< to educate them on/about what OUGHT NOT TO BE such a "touchy topic" - religion.
What makes "religion" such a contestly debated/argued/asserted subject is simply due to mere human SUBJECTIVE PREFERENCES.
If every other 'body of knowledge' - or if you prefer, every other 'science' - were treated as is the 'science of religion' - we'd have people still hotly debating, arguing, asserting, legislating, incessently advertising and indoctrinating others into believing things like 1) the world is flat 2) the moon is made out of cheese 3) living life has no meaning and purpose 4) you can do any stupid or silly thing one wants with one's "Free Will" within a Cause and Effect 'All' in which we all move, live and have our being.
Our "world" and the vast majority of our fellow human beings are 'Going Nuts!' precisely on account of turning the 'science of religion' into A BLOOMIN' JOKE, the BUTT OF MERE HUMAN DERISION.
If we are going TO BREAK the 'chains' in which 6 billion human being's MINDS and THOUGHTS and BELIEFS and subsequent ACTIONS which keep human beings enslaved in their "Dungeons of Darkness" - we simply MUST do combat the MYTHS by which the live out their under lives in any manner or form of SUPERSTITIONS - be those superstitions RELIGIOUS in nature or POLITICAL, FINANCIAL, ECONOMIC in nature.
My word - if one were to give but a couple of honest minute's worth of personal reflection on this matter - one cannot have nor can one really 'tolerate' the vocal ramblings of teachers/prophets of FALSE RELIGIONS. If we give LICENSE to any and all human beings to assert FALSE DOCTRINES and FALSE THEOLOGIES, then we must give people LICENSE to all human beings - particularly those very rich oligarchs who have no allegiance to their fellow man, to their particular nation, to their particular country, to their particular nation's "constitution", their nation's "laws", their nation's "heritage", their nation's "values", their nation's "welfare/well-being" - TO ASSERT FALSE THINGS about every other last aspect of human communal life.
We must "tolerate" their "legal fiats" which assert thus-and-such are 'The Enemy' upon which we must spend our entire lives slaving away working at and on military and economic systems to fight 'The Enemy' whoever the Oligarchs declare to be an 'Enemy' - INSTEAD OF WORKING ON economic systems which result in the communal WELFARE of the entire national human community so as to eliminate such things as poverty, ignorance, sickness, illnesses/diseases, homelessnes SO THAT people of every last nation, color, race and national origin may have the SPIRITUAL FREEDOM to turn his/her/their thoughts, wonders, consideration, ponderings upon their CREATOR so as to realize just how GOOD He Is so as to THANK HIM for His 'Free Gifts' of both their own personal LIFE as well as this 'ALL' in which we all live and which is so magnificently "Engineered" and "Put Together" for their own personal and individual sakes and benefit.
The 'World Struggle' IS both religious and theological - for what these GOD-LESS FALSE RELIGION MYTH MAKERS are doing is simply ROBBING GOD of what ought to be an entirely 100% NATURAL and 100% HUMAN SPONTANEOUS RESPONSE from 6 billion human beings living on His planet earth this 2007 Anno Domini...
...6 billion people simply RECOGNIZING the Goodness of God Himself and THANKING HIM as well as >>PRAISING HIM<< for all the Divine Services He does and carries out for them all.
FALSE RELIGION FOUNDERS/TEACHERS and all of their psuedo-spiritual MYTHS they generate only serve to KEEP PEOPLE SEPERATED from a True Knowledge of God Himself - and in that fashion, they are no different that ATHEISTS who entirely deny any human response to their Creator is what 'The Meaning and Purpose to and for Our Lives" is all about in the very first place.
In closing...again, as a Bishop authorized "religion teacher" in the Catholic Church in my very small/limited capacity as a Catechism teacher for the Sacrament of Confirmation, I want to extend to you my heartfelt "thanks" in return.
Maybe all of this 'blood, sweat and tears' these past 20 some odd years in that particular capacity might have "paid off" a wee tiny bit in our horrendously SCREWED UP 'WORLD' of 2007 Anno Domini!
- tocarm
You are probably the FIRST PERSON who has posted a "thank you" to me these past several years on the Internet in >TRYING< to educate them on/about what OUGHT NOT TO BE such a "touchy topic" - religion.
What makes "religion" such a contestly debated/argued/asserted subject is simply due to mere human SUBJECTIVE PREFERENCES.
If every other 'body of knowledge' - or if you prefer, every other 'science' - were treated as is the 'science of religion' - we'd have people still hotly debating, arguing, asserting, legislating, incessently advertising and indoctrinating others into believing things like 1) the world is flat 2) the moon is made out of cheese 3) living life has no meaning and purpose 4) you can do any stupid or silly thing one wants with one's "Free Will" within a Cause and Effect 'All' in which we all move, live and have our being.
Our "world" and the vast majority of our fellow human beings are 'Going Nuts!' precisely on account of turning the 'science of religion' into A BLOOMIN' JOKE, the BUTT OF MERE HUMAN DERISION.
If we are going TO BREAK the 'chains' in which 6 billion human being's MINDS and THOUGHTS and BELIEFS and subsequent ACTIONS which keep human beings enslaved in their "Dungeons of Darkness" - we simply MUST do combat the MYTHS by which the live out their under lives in any manner or form of SUPERSTITIONS - be those superstitions RELIGIOUS in nature or POLITICAL, FINANCIAL, ECONOMIC in nature.
My word - if one were to give but a couple of honest minute's worth of personal reflection on this matter - one cannot have nor can one really 'tolerate' the vocal ramblings of teachers/prophets of FALSE RELIGIONS. If we give LICENSE to any and all human beings to assert FALSE DOCTRINES and FALSE THEOLOGIES, then we must give people LICENSE to all human beings - particularly those very rich oligarchs who have no allegiance to their fellow man, to their particular nation, to their particular country, to their particular nation's "constitution", their nation's "laws", their nation's "heritage", their nation's "values", their nation's "welfare/well-being" - TO ASSERT FALSE THINGS about every other last aspect of human communal life.
We must "tolerate" their "legal fiats" which assert thus-and-such are 'The Enemy' upon which we must spend our entire lives slaving away working at and on military and economic systems to fight 'The Enemy' whoever the Oligarchs declare to be an 'Enemy' - INSTEAD OF WORKING ON economic systems which result in the communal WELFARE of the entire national human community so as to eliminate such things as poverty, ignorance, sickness, illnesses/diseases, homelessnes SO THAT people of every last nation, color, race and national origin may have the SPIRITUAL FREEDOM to turn his/her/their thoughts, wonders, consideration, ponderings upon their CREATOR so as to realize just how GOOD He Is so as to THANK HIM for His 'Free Gifts' of both their own personal LIFE as well as this 'ALL' in which we all live and which is so magnificently "Engineered" and "Put Together" for their own personal and individual sakes and benefit.
The 'World Struggle' IS both religious and theological - for what these GOD-LESS FALSE RELIGION MYTH MAKERS are doing is simply ROBBING GOD of what ought to be an entirely 100% NATURAL and 100% HUMAN SPONTANEOUS RESPONSE from 6 billion human beings living on His planet earth this 2007 Anno Domini...
...6 billion people simply RECOGNIZING the Goodness of God Himself and THANKING HIM as well as >>PRAISING HIM<< for all the Divine Services He does and carries out for them all.
FALSE RELIGION FOUNDERS/TEACHERS and all of their psuedo-spiritual MYTHS they generate only serve to KEEP PEOPLE SEPERATED from a True Knowledge of God Himself - and in that fashion, they are no different that ATHEISTS who entirely deny any human response to their Creator is what 'The Meaning and Purpose to and for Our Lives" is all about in the very first place.
In closing...again, as a Bishop authorized "religion teacher" in the Catholic Church in my very small/limited capacity as a Catechism teacher for the Sacrament of Confirmation, I want to extend to you my heartfelt "thanks" in return.
Maybe all of this 'blood, sweat and tears' these past 20 some odd years in that particular capacity might have "paid off" a wee tiny bit in our horrendously SCREWED UP 'WORLD' of 2007 Anno Domini!
- tocarm
Yo tocarm, I'm sort of browsing around the forum and I've got to get going so I didn't read your above post carefully (but I did read more of your post before it) - so forgive me if I'm off the mark a bit...
If you peruse around this thread a bit (I realise you have, but it's so long it would be quite a feat if you hit on the parts I'm now talking about...), I think you'll see what I meant by the words, history of the 3 Abrahamic religions. In the context of this thread, it is not important whether or not a specific incident from the Bible or scripture or even what's in history books is factual or not. Some people tried to argue in the thread at different times whether something actually happened or not, and others would argue against their position - and these are often unwinnable arguments, these things happened so long ago. But in the context of this thread (and in my own mind), that's not what is important - Whether Peter the Hermit actually dug up the spear that pierced Christ's side near Solomon's temple is not important - the fact that the story was told and retold and gained acceptance is. The goal of the thread was always simply to find out what different people believe, and why. What are the stories, how did they originate, and what part did these religions play in shaping the world?
We are now at a time when propoganda about Islam is being used to shape the world... so I thought it would be a good exercise to take an objective look at these things.
BTW, thanks for the Ebionite links
Edt: That Ebionite page is really interesting - tieing back to what I posted above, a lot of people would be surprised to read, for example, that Muslims (from that link:) "believe that Jesus is indeed the Christ (Messiah). al-Masih is a title used exclusively of Jesus in the Qur'an." - and,"believe in the virgin birth of Jesus.". Go out on the street, and ask your run-of-the-mill protestant or catholic if Muslims believe in Jesus Christ and the virgin birth. (I'm not certain that all Muslims believe these two things, I'm just quoting what your link states...) - I think I know what 99% of them would say. -Which is not meant to be a commentary on the religious ignorance of even religious Americans, but more on the misconceptions that abound with regard to religion.
If you peruse around this thread a bit (I realise you have, but it's so long it would be quite a feat if you hit on the parts I'm now talking about...), I think you'll see what I meant by the words, history of the 3 Abrahamic religions. In the context of this thread, it is not important whether or not a specific incident from the Bible or scripture or even what's in history books is factual or not. Some people tried to argue in the thread at different times whether something actually happened or not, and others would argue against their position - and these are often unwinnable arguments, these things happened so long ago. But in the context of this thread (and in my own mind), that's not what is important - Whether Peter the Hermit actually dug up the spear that pierced Christ's side near Solomon's temple is not important - the fact that the story was told and retold and gained acceptance is. The goal of the thread was always simply to find out what different people believe, and why. What are the stories, how did they originate, and what part did these religions play in shaping the world?
We are now at a time when propoganda about Islam is being used to shape the world... so I thought it would be a good exercise to take an objective look at these things.
BTW, thanks for the Ebionite links
Edt: That Ebionite page is really interesting - tieing back to what I posted above, a lot of people would be surprised to read, for example, that Muslims (from that link:) "believe that Jesus is indeed the Christ (Messiah). al-Masih is a title used exclusively of Jesus in the Qur'an." - and,"believe in the virgin birth of Jesus.". Go out on the street, and ask your run-of-the-mill protestant or catholic if Muslims believe in Jesus Christ and the virgin birth. (I'm not certain that all Muslims believe these two things, I'm just quoting what your link states...) - I think I know what 99% of them would say. -Which is not meant to be a commentary on the religious ignorance of even religious Americans, but more on the misconceptions that abound with regard to religion.
All 'world religions' simply MUST base itself/themselves on some sort of 'concrete historical event' as being their 'claim to Divine Sanction'.
Consider but for a moment that accounts of these/those/that 'concrete historical event' can be imaginatively created in the mind of a mere human being - much like an individual wishing to write the ultimate 'Religious Novel' - OR - they are human accounts of encounters with the Infinite & Eternal God, human accounts which "struggle" with the task of using human language, human imagery and human comparisions in order to describe the Supernatural in/with natural terms.
For example, how would one human being go about describing to another human being a color nobody has ever seen before? Or how would one describe the signature notes of Beethovan's 5th Symphony to another human being who is deaf?
Or how would you describe the taste of chocolate to somebody who has never eaten the stuff?
Either individuals 'in the past', 'in the present' and 'in the future' have/can have an experience of/with God Himself - or they simply CAN'T on account of God being a 'non-reality'.
The Sacred Scriptures contained in those partitions of 'The Bible' within the Old Testament (Old Covenant if you prefer) and the New Testament (New Covenant if you prefer) ALL give the rest of the world written accounts of such encounters - human beings having encounters with a Supereme Deity.
Adam & Eve have theirs. Cain has his. Noah has his. Abraham has his. Moses has his. The Hebrews have theirs (most notably at Mt. Sinai). The Prophets all have theirs. The Blessed Virgin Mary has hers. The apostles and disciples of Christ have theirs. The Saints down through the centuries have theirs. And on and on this sort of 'Encounter' continues with every manner of religious and mystical experience by thousands upon thousands down through the centuries.
A "repeating hallucination" down through centuries, amongst peoples from all across our world - all of them encountering/expreriencing THE SAME "hallucination" during the course of our entire human history - simply gives 'witness' to the SAME GOD Who happens to make His Presense known to mankind time after time after time. This "repeating hallucination" of the SAME GOD down through the centuries simply gives witness to THE UNDENIABLE REALITY of our Common and Universal Creator God Who happens "to be" living His Divine Life in that Transcendent State of Being we call 'Eternal' and 'Infinity'.
The account of Abraham's encounter with God is most revealing. Abraham encounters 'three strangers' - and instead of bowing down while addressing them as 'LORDS' (in the plural), the account of this Sacred Encounter has Abraham addressing the 'three strangers' in the SINGULAR... "Lord".
If one were a 'student of the Pentatuech' - or the Hebrew 'Torah' if you prefer - you would find an 'echo' of Abraham's doctrinal/dogmatic religious declaration about these 'three strangers' in the account of Genesis where we find this passage making mention of a PLURALITY with respect to the Creator Himself:
"GOD said, 'Let >>US<< make man in OUR own Image, in the likeness of OURSELVES." - Genesis1:26
How do the 'monotheistic' religions of Judaism and Islam make their claim to "historical validity" on account of Abraham's ecounter with the Supernatural in our day and age when they theologically DENY the Christian Church's dogmatic doctrine of "The Blessed Trinity" as they assert there is but ONE GOD while Abraham addresses these "three strangers" with the singular 'LORD' and God Himself refers to Himself as "OURSELVES"???
Either contemporary Judiasm and Islam are BOTH "right" - asserting there is but One God while both DENYING Christ and His Revelation of God the Father, Himself and God the Holy Spirit - thus BOTH making Abraham WRONG which undercuts their own 'claim to historical validity' and thus making their ENTIRE 'religion' WRONG/IN ERROR as well as the written text of Genesis on/about God FRIVOLOUS and SUPERFICIAL - or BOTH Judiasm and Islam are both WRONG/IN ERROR thus making Christ's Revelation and Teachings 100% ACCURATE, CORRECT and IMMUTABLE!
Either all devout/religous/pious JEWS and MUSLIMS are meant to become CHRISTIAN and all "christian denominations" are meant to ALL SUBMIT TO the Teachings of both Christ and His Apostles so that there is ONE UNIVERSAL religious Faith, Belief and Practice amongst 6 billion human beings - or we human beings have >>NO GOD<<!!
All human beings either AGREE that 2+2=4, the moon is NOT made out of cheese, water is wet and liquid BUT becomes a solid (ice) below freezing temperature, their is air in our earth's atmosphere, there are stars, a sun and planets in 'Outer Space', gravity is measured at 32.2 ft/sec^2 here in the USA as well as in Europe, Africa, Asia, etc. - and ALL OF US 6 billion human beings have 'One God' and this 'One God' gave us human beings >>HIS<< 'religion' 2,000 years ago in the Person of Jesus, the Christ - or we human beings individually and collectively CHOOSE TO deny God Himself so that we might advance/assert/promote our own personal "religion" which is a "religion of DENIAL of God Himself" which is simply the desire to impose the world over any variant of "mythical ATHEISM"!
- tocarm
Consider but for a moment that accounts of these/those/that 'concrete historical event' can be imaginatively created in the mind of a mere human being - much like an individual wishing to write the ultimate 'Religious Novel' - OR - they are human accounts of encounters with the Infinite & Eternal God, human accounts which "struggle" with the task of using human language, human imagery and human comparisions in order to describe the Supernatural in/with natural terms.
For example, how would one human being go about describing to another human being a color nobody has ever seen before? Or how would one describe the signature notes of Beethovan's 5th Symphony to another human being who is deaf?
Or how would you describe the taste of chocolate to somebody who has never eaten the stuff?
Either individuals 'in the past', 'in the present' and 'in the future' have/can have an experience of/with God Himself - or they simply CAN'T on account of God being a 'non-reality'.
The Sacred Scriptures contained in those partitions of 'The Bible' within the Old Testament (Old Covenant if you prefer) and the New Testament (New Covenant if you prefer) ALL give the rest of the world written accounts of such encounters - human beings having encounters with a Supereme Deity.
Adam & Eve have theirs. Cain has his. Noah has his. Abraham has his. Moses has his. The Hebrews have theirs (most notably at Mt. Sinai). The Prophets all have theirs. The Blessed Virgin Mary has hers. The apostles and disciples of Christ have theirs. The Saints down through the centuries have theirs. And on and on this sort of 'Encounter' continues with every manner of religious and mystical experience by thousands upon thousands down through the centuries.
A "repeating hallucination" down through centuries, amongst peoples from all across our world - all of them encountering/expreriencing THE SAME "hallucination" during the course of our entire human history - simply gives 'witness' to the SAME GOD Who happens to make His Presense known to mankind time after time after time. This "repeating hallucination" of the SAME GOD down through the centuries simply gives witness to THE UNDENIABLE REALITY of our Common and Universal Creator God Who happens "to be" living His Divine Life in that Transcendent State of Being we call 'Eternal' and 'Infinity'.
The account of Abraham's encounter with God is most revealing. Abraham encounters 'three strangers' - and instead of bowing down while addressing them as 'LORDS' (in the plural), the account of this Sacred Encounter has Abraham addressing the 'three strangers' in the SINGULAR... "Lord".
If one were a 'student of the Pentatuech' - or the Hebrew 'Torah' if you prefer - you would find an 'echo' of Abraham's doctrinal/dogmatic religious declaration about these 'three strangers' in the account of Genesis where we find this passage making mention of a PLURALITY with respect to the Creator Himself:
"GOD said, 'Let >>US<< make man in OUR own Image, in the likeness of OURSELVES." - Genesis1:26
How do the 'monotheistic' religions of Judaism and Islam make their claim to "historical validity" on account of Abraham's ecounter with the Supernatural in our day and age when they theologically DENY the Christian Church's dogmatic doctrine of "The Blessed Trinity" as they assert there is but ONE GOD while Abraham addresses these "three strangers" with the singular 'LORD' and God Himself refers to Himself as "OURSELVES"???
Either contemporary Judiasm and Islam are BOTH "right" - asserting there is but One God while both DENYING Christ and His Revelation of God the Father, Himself and God the Holy Spirit - thus BOTH making Abraham WRONG which undercuts their own 'claim to historical validity' and thus making their ENTIRE 'religion' WRONG/IN ERROR as well as the written text of Genesis on/about God FRIVOLOUS and SUPERFICIAL - or BOTH Judiasm and Islam are both WRONG/IN ERROR thus making Christ's Revelation and Teachings 100% ACCURATE, CORRECT and IMMUTABLE!
Either all devout/religous/pious JEWS and MUSLIMS are meant to become CHRISTIAN and all "christian denominations" are meant to ALL SUBMIT TO the Teachings of both Christ and His Apostles so that there is ONE UNIVERSAL religious Faith, Belief and Practice amongst 6 billion human beings - or we human beings have >>NO GOD<<!!
All human beings either AGREE that 2+2=4, the moon is NOT made out of cheese, water is wet and liquid BUT becomes a solid (ice) below freezing temperature, their is air in our earth's atmosphere, there are stars, a sun and planets in 'Outer Space', gravity is measured at 32.2 ft/sec^2 here in the USA as well as in Europe, Africa, Asia, etc. - and ALL OF US 6 billion human beings have 'One God' and this 'One God' gave us human beings >>HIS<< 'religion' 2,000 years ago in the Person of Jesus, the Christ - or we human beings individually and collectively CHOOSE TO deny God Himself so that we might advance/assert/promote our own personal "religion" which is a "religion of DENIAL of God Himself" which is simply the desire to impose the world over any variant of "mythical ATHEISM"!
- tocarm
You're wasting your breath, tocarm, no matter how fervently you believe what you are saying. Simply, there are non-christians in the world who believe in god (I'm not gonna bother with the caps) - to say to them that because they don't accept christ they are heathens or they are wrong or that from that logic demands that there is no god etc. only serves to piss people off, and, as many of us know from our experiences over at LC, pissing people off isn't a very good way to convince anyone of anything.
"Truth" has this uncanny way OF 'pissing people off'.
A certain historical figure about 2,000 years ago got Himself nailed to a Cross on account of 'The Truth' He taught, revealed and proclaimed.
"And there is NOTHING NEW under the sun." - Ecclesiastes
- tocrm
P.S. And it "pisses people off" in very high places going around telling other people that 9-11 was "an inside job".
"Truth? What is that?" The Roman Governor of Palestine many moons ago.
A certain historical figure about 2,000 years ago got Himself nailed to a Cross on account of 'The Truth' He taught, revealed and proclaimed.
"And there is NOTHING NEW under the sun." - Ecclesiastes
- tocrm
P.S. And it "pisses people off" in very high places going around telling other people that 9-11 was "an inside job".
"Truth? What is that?" The Roman Governor of Palestine many moons ago.
Why can't I get through to you, tocarm? Go re-read your own above post - you are flat out telling people who believe differently than you do that they are wrong - which is preaching by any name... you refuse to abide by the rules for this thread I've stated numerous times. 
Odd, tocarm, you seem to have missed the significance of the part in your own link that states that Muslims do belive in Christ. And how does it follow logically that if people who don't believe in your Christ are correct then God doesn't exist? I'm sorry, tocarm, but with all due respect and respect for what you believe, I can only read your posts as you saying "I and people who believe like me are right and everone else is wrong" - seems to me that sort of attitude has gotten the world into some trouble before ...
Sigh. What am I to do?
I think Sinewy is right. I'm saddened, but I think I have no choice but to close this thread. At least for now, I don't have time to spend here these days, and this conversation is going nowhere fast...
Odd, tocarm, you seem to have missed the significance of the part in your own link that states that Muslims do belive in Christ. And how does it follow logically that if people who don't believe in your Christ are correct then God doesn't exist? I'm sorry, tocarm, but with all due respect and respect for what you believe, I can only read your posts as you saying "I and people who believe like me are right and everone else is wrong" - seems to me that sort of attitude has gotten the world into some trouble before ...
Sigh. What am I to do?
I think Sinewy is right. I'm saddened, but I think I have no choice but to close this thread. At least for now, I don't have time to spend here these days, and this conversation is going nowhere fast...
Why are you so beligerent?? Why?
Why are you so "troubled" by THE FACT that God Himself took on our human INCARNATE nature in the Divine Person of Jesus of Nazareth - conceived in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary by the Power of God the Holy Spirit and born into our human race roughly 2,000 years ago?
I'm just simply STATING >FACT<. Historical FACT.
I'm a CATECHISM >TEACHER<. Put me in a 'pulpit', put me in front of 50,000 people gathered for a 'revival' in Yankee Stadium...and THEN you might say to me that I'm "preaching"!
So THE EBIONITES asserted that Christ's APOSTLES "got it all wrong" and sold their heretical Christology to an Arabian man named Mohammed, who then included THAT dogmatic/doctrinal statement about Christ as >>HIS<< "catechism lesson on Divine Things" in his writings referred to as 'The Qu'ran'.
Who is "preaching" here? Mohammed did HIS 'catechism teaching' via his Qu'ran to millions upon milllions - and they ALL accept his 'catechism lessons' as DIVINE TRUTH!
As a Catholic 'catechism teacher', I'm simply asserting that MOHAMMED "got it all wrong"!
Is that any reason to resort to 'ad hominem' against ME and what I post here?
So there are those who assert that the PROPHET MOHAMMED got it "right", and they call themselves followers of Islam. Then there are those others who say that the PROPHET MOHAMMED got it wrong....like the PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH of the Mormonism.
The Patron Saint of my religious order is St. Elijah who had HIS OWN confrontation with "false prophets" way, way BEFORE either Mohammed or Joe Smith. That account is given in the Old Testament book of 1st Kings:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...-40;&versio=31;
Father Elijah was "man enough" to confront the FALSE religious teachers who spun their MYTHS in order to "control" and "indoctrinate" the people into their own PERSONAL agendas.
I don't advocate killing anybody on account of their ficticious/erroneous religious beliefs. But I DO believe in giving them all THE FACTS with the hope and expectation that God the HOLY SPIRIT will move them to "repent", "convert" and utilize their God-given human INCARNATE natures in order to work at brining about 'The Kingdom Of God' alive and living here all across this planet earth.
"My People PERISH for want of knowledge." - the Prophet Hosea - Hosea 4:6
And I to be 'persecuted' for desiring people the world over to have the FULLNESS OF LIFE as God Incarnate desires for them to have - to include obtaining the Ultimate Spiritual 'Prize' of Eternal Life by their being endowed with God's Own DIVINE NATURE???
"We don't need no education...
We don't need no thought control...
TEACHER - LEAVE THOSE KIDS ALONE!"
And WITHOUT the knowledge that their TEACHER can give them all - all the 'little kiddies' throughout the world of any age are being led like those children in the fairy tale of the 'PIPED PIPER' into the very real hellish prospects of a thermonuclear THIRD WORLD WAR on account of their abandonment of the One, True God!
As a Catholic 'catechism teacher'...I >>CARE ENOUGH<< about my students to do everything in my power so they have the KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTANDING and WISDOM to make the correct choices they MUST MAKE in order to have "The Blessed Life".
- tocarm
Why are you so "troubled" by THE FACT that God Himself took on our human INCARNATE nature in the Divine Person of Jesus of Nazareth - conceived in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary by the Power of God the Holy Spirit and born into our human race roughly 2,000 years ago?
I'm just simply STATING >FACT<. Historical FACT.
I'm a CATECHISM >TEACHER<. Put me in a 'pulpit', put me in front of 50,000 people gathered for a 'revival' in Yankee Stadium...and THEN you might say to me that I'm "preaching"!
So THE EBIONITES asserted that Christ's APOSTLES "got it all wrong" and sold their heretical Christology to an Arabian man named Mohammed, who then included THAT dogmatic/doctrinal statement about Christ as >>HIS<< "catechism lesson on Divine Things" in his writings referred to as 'The Qu'ran'.
Who is "preaching" here? Mohammed did HIS 'catechism teaching' via his Qu'ran to millions upon milllions - and they ALL accept his 'catechism lessons' as DIVINE TRUTH!
As a Catholic 'catechism teacher', I'm simply asserting that MOHAMMED "got it all wrong"!
Is that any reason to resort to 'ad hominem' against ME and what I post here?
So there are those who assert that the PROPHET MOHAMMED got it "right", and they call themselves followers of Islam. Then there are those others who say that the PROPHET MOHAMMED got it wrong....like the PROPHET JOSEPH SMITH of the Mormonism.
The Patron Saint of my religious order is St. Elijah who had HIS OWN confrontation with "false prophets" way, way BEFORE either Mohammed or Joe Smith. That account is given in the Old Testament book of 1st Kings:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...-40;&versio=31;
Father Elijah was "man enough" to confront the FALSE religious teachers who spun their MYTHS in order to "control" and "indoctrinate" the people into their own PERSONAL agendas.
I don't advocate killing anybody on account of their ficticious/erroneous religious beliefs. But I DO believe in giving them all THE FACTS with the hope and expectation that God the HOLY SPIRIT will move them to "repent", "convert" and utilize their God-given human INCARNATE natures in order to work at brining about 'The Kingdom Of God' alive and living here all across this planet earth.
"My People PERISH for want of knowledge." - the Prophet Hosea - Hosea 4:6
And I to be 'persecuted' for desiring people the world over to have the FULLNESS OF LIFE as God Incarnate desires for them to have - to include obtaining the Ultimate Spiritual 'Prize' of Eternal Life by their being endowed with God's Own DIVINE NATURE???
"We don't need no education...
We don't need no thought control...
TEACHER - LEAVE THOSE KIDS ALONE!"
And WITHOUT the knowledge that their TEACHER can give them all - all the 'little kiddies' throughout the world of any age are being led like those children in the fairy tale of the 'PIPED PIPER' into the very real hellish prospects of a thermonuclear THIRD WORLD WAR on account of their abandonment of the One, True God!
As a Catholic 'catechism teacher'...I >>CARE ENOUGH<< about my students to do everything in my power so they have the KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTANDING and WISDOM to make the correct choices they MUST MAKE in order to have "The Blessed Life".
- tocarm
Dear Sanders,
"The three CRITICAL Christian doctrines ISLAM DENIES are the Trinity, the Incarnation and the Resurrection. Like JUDIASM, Islam DENIES CHRIST'S CLAIM TO DIVINITY. Allah is oen; so who could He be three? Jesus is human; so how could He be divine? "It is unfitting for Allah to have a son," wrote Mohammed, apparently interpreting sonship biologically." - from on-line reference:
"Comparing Christianity & Islam"
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/...ics/ap0009.html
"Why Muslims Become Christians" @
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Testimonies/index.html
- tocarm
A Third Order Carmelite
http://carmelnet.org/toc/html/about.htm
In the service of the Mother of Jesus, THE CHRIST, complying with her personal call to me to come to THE DEFENSE of His Church here on earth:
http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/zeitun.html
'Ne Transient!'
"The three CRITICAL Christian doctrines ISLAM DENIES are the Trinity, the Incarnation and the Resurrection. Like JUDIASM, Islam DENIES CHRIST'S CLAIM TO DIVINITY. Allah is oen; so who could He be three? Jesus is human; so how could He be divine? "It is unfitting for Allah to have a son," wrote Mohammed, apparently interpreting sonship biologically." - from on-line reference:
"Comparing Christianity & Islam"
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/...ics/ap0009.html
"Why Muslims Become Christians" @
http://www.answering-islam.de/Main/Testimonies/index.html
- tocarm
A Third Order Carmelite
http://carmelnet.org/toc/html/about.htm
In the service of the Mother of Jesus, THE CHRIST, complying with her personal call to me to come to THE DEFENSE of His Church here on earth:
http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/zeitun.html
'Ne Transient!'
QUOTE (tocarm @ Feb 26 2007, 11:04 AM)
Why are you so "troubled" by THE FACT that God Himself took on our human INCARNATE nature in the Divine Person of Jesus of Nazareth - conceived in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary by the Power of God the Holy Spirit and born into our human race roughly 2,000 years ago?
I'm not troubled by anything like that - I'm not even dissagreeing with you - I haven't even stated what I personally believe, but that is immaterial in my mind. I think we're just not comunicating very well... I'm sorry you think I was being beligerent, I didn't mean anything personally toward you, and I completely respect your passion for what you believe. The only point I was trying to make was that this thread was always about simply comparing the 3 religions, and plotting their histories through the millemiums, while being tolerant of other's beliefs.
Dear Sanders,
Where on earth did the human race ever get indoctrinated into EVERYTHING HAVING TO BE "tolerated"?
We have 'Political Correctness' in politics, in the media, in human behaviors which are entirely contrary to human beings' nature. Since we are we supposed to be 'P.C.' about dogmatic/doctrinal mattes with respect to Religion?
This "tolerating" every manner of BULLSH!T is precisely the 'social SICKNESS' that is going to get our entire human race wiped off the face of the planet of this earth!
With respect to 'JUDAISM'...there is >>NO LONGER<< any valid form of Judiasm since the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple back in 70 A.D. And as for Islam, the prophet Mohammed has it ALL WRONG about Christ.
So we are supposed to "tolerate" what refers to itself as 'Judaism' under Talmudic, Zionist, Kabbalistic influences pitting IT'S psuedo-religious beliefs which has it ALL WRONG about Christ vs. Islam which likewise has it ALL WRONG about Christ to the point we are supposed to "tolerate" their desires to plunge the entire planet earth into a thermonuclear Third World War for the Illuminati?
Contemporary 'Judiasm' is in CRITICAL ERROR with respect to it's religious beliefs.
Contemporary 'Islam' is in CRITICAL ERROR with respec to it's religious beliefs.
If we are to be "tolerant" of what each and every last person "believes", then we are "condemned" into having TO ACCEPT whatever sorts and forms of both PERSONAL as well as COMMUNAL BEHAVIORS of every last person alive on planet earth.
Bush has his "religious beliefs" - and are we to 'tolerate' THEM if those beliefs require the US military makes a MASS THERMONUCLEAR SACRIFICE of hundreds of thousands...maybe millions...of people to his god MOLOCH???
Anyways...why don't you tell us all of your own "religious beliefs". Can't hurt now, can it? You're not ashamed of your "religious beliefs", now are you?
- tocarm
Where on earth did the human race ever get indoctrinated into EVERYTHING HAVING TO BE "tolerated"?
We have 'Political Correctness' in politics, in the media, in human behaviors which are entirely contrary to human beings' nature. Since we are we supposed to be 'P.C.' about dogmatic/doctrinal mattes with respect to Religion?
This "tolerating" every manner of BULLSH!T is precisely the 'social SICKNESS' that is going to get our entire human race wiped off the face of the planet of this earth!
With respect to 'JUDAISM'...there is >>NO LONGER<< any valid form of Judiasm since the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple back in 70 A.D. And as for Islam, the prophet Mohammed has it ALL WRONG about Christ.
So we are supposed to "tolerate" what refers to itself as 'Judaism' under Talmudic, Zionist, Kabbalistic influences pitting IT'S psuedo-religious beliefs which has it ALL WRONG about Christ vs. Islam which likewise has it ALL WRONG about Christ to the point we are supposed to "tolerate" their desires to plunge the entire planet earth into a thermonuclear Third World War for the Illuminati?
Contemporary 'Judiasm' is in CRITICAL ERROR with respect to it's religious beliefs.
Contemporary 'Islam' is in CRITICAL ERROR with respec to it's religious beliefs.
If we are to be "tolerant" of what each and every last person "believes", then we are "condemned" into having TO ACCEPT whatever sorts and forms of both PERSONAL as well as COMMUNAL BEHAVIORS of every last person alive on planet earth.
Bush has his "religious beliefs" - and are we to 'tolerate' THEM if those beliefs require the US military makes a MASS THERMONUCLEAR SACRIFICE of hundreds of thousands...maybe millions...of people to his god MOLOCH???
Anyways...why don't you tell us all of your own "religious beliefs". Can't hurt now, can it? You're not ashamed of your "religious beliefs", now are you?
- tocarm
Well, I think it's time to close this thread.
The last thing I wanted was a quarrel between tocarm and myself.
BTW, I don't believe in god -- since you asked. Not ashamed to say it in the least.
Sayonara
The last thing I wanted was a quarrel between tocarm and myself.
BTW, I don't believe in god -- since you asked. Not ashamed to say it in the least.
Sayonara
Re-opened
Please peruse the entire thread before posting, there's a continuance thing here.
(All 26 pages?? Ya gotta be joking !!!!???)
Hehe
Please peruse the entire thread before posting, there's a continuance thing here.
(All 26 pages?? Ya gotta be joking !!!!???)
Hehe
QUOTE (Sanders @ Apr 30 2007, 07:26 PM)
Re-opened
Please peruse the entire thread before posting, there's a continuance thing here.
(All 26 pages?? Ya gotta be joking !!!!???)
Hehe
Please peruse the entire thread before posting, there's a continuance thing here.
(All 26 pages?? Ya gotta be joking !!!!???)
Hehe
Ahh, well, were where we??
We were at the beginning of the Crusades.
To the uninitiated, this thread started with Abraham. Christianity, Judaism and Islam all can trace their roots to Abraham. We covered a couple thousand years of ground in these 26 pages, albeit via a circutous route.
I've been sort of busy this winter, as have we all. Rob released Pandora's Box chapter II, BBC World got busted (but the media ignored it), Rosie came out of the closet (the media DIDN'T ignore it), Cheney's itching to invade Iran, Loose Change Final Cut is in the pipeline, and none of us have been carted off to a FEMA camp yet, thank 'God'.
So I s'pose I can spare a little tiny bit of time to one of my favorite subjects.
A couple of rules, once more for good measure - no preaching allowed. Tolerance is almightly. The goal here is not to convince anyone of the truth or fiction of one religion or another, it's to trace the histories of the 3 major religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam - there's no prejudice here, other religions are not focused on simply because they don't impact on the war on terror as of this posting) through history. Much of the "history" of the various religions may or may not be based on historical fact or fiction - that is understood and is not necessarily relevant. We are trying to figure out what exactly is the historical record, and what various peoples of the world who are engaged in the "Clash of Civilizations" currently being promoted believe. That is all.
I'm sort of looking forward to diving into the Crusades, for the reason that this is where the Knights Templar came to power. The Knights Templar are the founders of our current banking and legal systems. Interestingly, the home of the International Bar Association is STILL the Crown Temple Church in the City of London, the same church that many of the Templars called home after they returned to England from the Holy Land. The current center of the wold's banking system, if you exlude the Bank of International Settlements in Switzerland, is also there in the City of London, the Bank of England is just a hop skip and a jump down the street from the Crown Temple Church. In other words, this, the Crusades, is where it all started.
For anyone that doubts that the effect of the crusades are not still felt in more ways than one, the Middle East, particularly Israel, Syria and Lebanon, are dotted with the castles built during the Crusades. Purportedly, Muslims still talk about the Christian invasions. When GHW Bush initiated the 1st Gulf War, some headlines read: "Al-Salibiya !!" (crusade)
So.
The ancestors of the barbarians (Franks, et.al) that had long since displaced the Holy Roman Empire finally filed into Constantinople (modern Istanbul) in 1095 (?), and were disgusted by the sight of the Byzantine Emperor, Alexus I. (One of the reasons the Crusade was called for by Pope Urban II was because the Seljuk Turks had invaded Anatolia, or modern Turkey ... if you are fuzzy, back up a few pages).
Alexus I was a weak, pampered, shadow of a man. The Frankish knights were burly ruffarians who had been weaned in battle. The Crusaders weren't impressed. Whatever, they carried on into Anatolia in pursuit of the Seljuk turks...
We were at the beginning of the Crusades.
To the uninitiated, this thread started with Abraham. Christianity, Judaism and Islam all can trace their roots to Abraham. We covered a couple thousand years of ground in these 26 pages, albeit via a circutous route.
I've been sort of busy this winter, as have we all. Rob released Pandora's Box chapter II, BBC World got busted (but the media ignored it), Rosie came out of the closet (the media DIDN'T ignore it), Cheney's itching to invade Iran, Loose Change Final Cut is in the pipeline, and none of us have been carted off to a FEMA camp yet, thank 'God'.
So I s'pose I can spare a little tiny bit of time to one of my favorite subjects.
A couple of rules, once more for good measure - no preaching allowed. Tolerance is almightly. The goal here is not to convince anyone of the truth or fiction of one religion or another, it's to trace the histories of the 3 major religions (Christianity, Judaism, Islam - there's no prejudice here, other religions are not focused on simply because they don't impact on the war on terror as of this posting) through history. Much of the "history" of the various religions may or may not be based on historical fact or fiction - that is understood and is not necessarily relevant. We are trying to figure out what exactly is the historical record, and what various peoples of the world who are engaged in the "Clash of Civilizations" currently being promoted believe. That is all.
I'm sort of looking forward to diving into the Crusades, for the reason that this is where the Knights Templar came to power. The Knights Templar are the founders of our current banking and legal systems. Interestingly, the home of the International Bar Association is STILL the Crown Temple Church in the City of London, the same church that many of the Templars called home after they returned to England from the Holy Land. The current center of the wold's banking system, if you exlude the Bank of International Settlements in Switzerland, is also there in the City of London, the Bank of England is just a hop skip and a jump down the street from the Crown Temple Church. In other words, this, the Crusades, is where it all started.
For anyone that doubts that the effect of the crusades are not still felt in more ways than one, the Middle East, particularly Israel, Syria and Lebanon, are dotted with the castles built during the Crusades. Purportedly, Muslims still talk about the Christian invasions. When GHW Bush initiated the 1st Gulf War, some headlines read: "Al-Salibiya !!" (crusade)
So.
The ancestors of the barbarians (Franks, et.al) that had long since displaced the Holy Roman Empire finally filed into Constantinople (modern Istanbul) in 1095 (?), and were disgusted by the sight of the Byzantine Emperor, Alexus I. (One of the reasons the Crusade was called for by Pope Urban II was because the Seljuk Turks had invaded Anatolia, or modern Turkey ... if you are fuzzy, back up a few pages).
Alexus I was a weak, pampered, shadow of a man. The Frankish knights were burly ruffarians who had been weaned in battle. The Crusaders weren't impressed. Whatever, they carried on into Anatolia in pursuit of the Seljuk turks...
QUOTE (librarian @ Nov 11 2006, 07:06 AM)
Posted by: FL2 Jul 28 2006, 10:49 PM
Just checked
Is = Stands for Isis, the queen of the throne.
Ra = symbolizes the Sun
El = The supreme God (masculine entity)
QUOTE
A fascinating composite word, ISIS, RA and EL.
Just checked
Is = Stands for Isis, the queen of the throne.
Ra = symbolizes the Sun
El = The supreme God (masculine entity)
I haven't thoroughly digested this thread in total but I alighted upon this particular reply which I feel deserves some clarification. (I promise I wll get to perusing all 26 pages though, Sanders.
)Icke among others propagates this break down of the word Israel, and it is popularly assumed as the hidden secret behind the name within many alternative history circles. On the surface of it, the break down seems plausible but it is not etymologically sound. The real story of what "They" are obscuring about the name "Israel" is that it stands for Isra El, i.e. The God (el) Isra otherwise called Assur or Osir. Assur and Osir are derived from the same root, i.e. the appellation for semen or seed: oos, hence Juice and interestingly, Zeus.
In this respect, Israel, Osiris, Assura, and Zeus all basically mean Holy Sperm.
Athene, Yahweh, and Zion, Dionne, Dianna, Britannia etc. all mean Holy Egg. the term On, Ahweh or Ova, Oon, Ene, onne, Annia and Anna all signify egg or ovum or womb and the prefixes Ath, Ya, Brit, Di and Zi all designate high eminence or similar holy status.
A note here regarding the greatly obscured origins of the most significant term "Zion":
The original wife of Zeus or Deus was Zion or Dionne. Hera is merely an honorific meaning heroic, i.e. Zion was a "heroic" Goddess. Zeus would have been similarly designated a "Hero" to Zion/Dionne's "Hera". Zion, simply put, is the magical and most powerful Sky Goddess, as is Britannia and Athena, and in fact they are all one and the same. While I'm on this point I might as well add that of course Britannia "rules the waves" as do Zion and Athene being that they are one and the same. The behavior of the sky is properly thought of as dominating the water below it.
Of special and intriguing interest is the fact that the promoters of the judaic religions have reversed the male/female status of these god terms: Yahweh, being a case in point. Yahweh clearly stands for holy egg or womb and was once regarded as the female deity. In original terms the sky was female and representing the womb and the sun was seen to be the egg/yolk in the womb from which was born the child, i.e. sonne or son.
What is popularly presented as the hidden female deity in the bible, i.e. Ashera, who is represented by the Ashera pole or post, was actually the male god, Assyria and the pole is an obvious metaphor for the penis. The Earth was in former times regarded as male. Assura, Osiris etc are all represented by poles, obelixes or trees.
So our Sky Father is more properly thought of as a Sky mother, i.e. this is a more appropriate and useful metaphor and in likewise fashion, our Earth Mother is more properly thought of as an Earth Father.
Big question: why would the "powers that be" reverse and obscure things in this way?
Big answer: "They" are the deceivers that routinely present black as white and vice versa and routinely obscure ALL truth.
QUOTE (Factfinder General @ Oct 11 2007, 02:57 AM)
I haven't thoroughly digested this thread in total...
GOOD LUCK !!!
(back to topic - Interesting stuff)
just throwing this in...
1) our presidents are blood related to the queen, the queen is blood related to the hebrews, the hebrew bloodline came from the egyptian pheroas.
2) non historical figures... {mosses} usually lived around the same time when HISTORICAL figures were alive {king tut mosses} pretty much all characters in the bible were stories of egyptian rulers..
3) in the bible...it generaly refers to 8 rules you have to follow ALONG with not sinning.... nobody is going to heavan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzzORZhnCao
1) our presidents are blood related to the queen, the queen is blood related to the hebrews, the hebrew bloodline came from the egyptian pheroas.
2) non historical figures... {mosses} usually lived around the same time when HISTORICAL figures were alive {king tut mosses} pretty much all characters in the bible were stories of egyptian rulers..
3) in the bible...it generaly refers to 8 rules you have to follow ALONG with not sinning.... nobody is going to heavan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzzORZhnCao
QUOTE (THE_DECIDER @ Apr 1 2008, 04:14 AM) 
just throwing this in...
1) our presidents are blood related to the queen, the queen is blood related to the hebrews, the hebrew bloodline came from the egyptian pheroas.
2) non historical figures... {mosses} usually lived around the same time when HISTORICAL figures were alive {king tut mosses} pretty much all characters in the bible were stories of egyptian rulers..
3) in the bible...it generaly refers to 8 rules you have to follow ALONG with not sinning.... nobody is going to heavan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzzORZhnCao
1) our presidents are blood related to the queen, the queen is blood related to the hebrews, the hebrew bloodline came from the egyptian pheroas.
2) non historical figures... {mosses} usually lived around the same time when HISTORICAL figures were alive {king tut mosses} pretty much all characters in the bible were stories of egyptian rulers..
3) in the bible...it generaly refers to 8 rules you have to follow ALONG with not sinning.... nobody is going to heavan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzzORZhnCao
First of all, yo THE DECIDER, really great to hear from you. Hope you are happy and well.
I spent a lot of time and energy chasing down that 'Tribe of Dan' stuff. There is only circumstantial evidence that the Hebrews are descended from Pharoahs ... I have found that the whole puzzle comes together much more readily if you consider Egypt as a pit-stop rather than as a source. The source is Sumer. IMO. Two little pieces are very intriguing to me, which center on the Israeli tribes of Dan and Nephtali - the patrons of both (Dan and Nephtali were full brothers) were from the same mother according to the Bible, and were illegitimate (very significant IMO). Both tribes occupied (after the tribe of Dan moved to the northern reaches of Israel) adjacent lands, both were farthest from the country of Judah, both were reportedly "pagan" in nature according various bible passages. The name of the tribe of "Nephtali" is awfully close to Nephilim, which described the "fallen angels" of Sumer - one of which of those "angels" was named Daniel.
But then you get into the subject of the Dragon blood-line - which connects directly to what you mentioned about the Queen ... but a bit too deep for this post. Anyway, my advice is, don't get too centered on Egypt - Egypt is not the source. The source is Sumeria, which appears to be close to the Biblical Eden. (Actually "Eden" is now under water - under the Persian Gulf, from what I can tell. )
(If anyone is interested in this topic...)
http://www.chaban.ripside.com/forum/index.php?topic=12.0
thanx
i admit i have been primaraly focusing on egypt..
religion to me is amazing... i talked to a pretty smart guy 20 plus years of collages.. and he believes in it all...
but at the same time he says the bible was "written" by/for... the emperor of rome.. 350 AD he felt the hebrews had it right and christianity made the most sense... so he felt it should be a religion...
more or less... im sure im missing alot of what he said...lol
so heres a very religious person....admitting the bible is 100% malarchy... but in his words... "nothing that explains mans existance better has come along" so untill he obtains better evidence...hes sticking with the bible...
totally amazing.
i admit i have been primaraly focusing on egypt..
religion to me is amazing... i talked to a pretty smart guy 20 plus years of collages.. and he believes in it all...
but at the same time he says the bible was "written" by/for... the emperor of rome.. 350 AD he felt the hebrews had it right and christianity made the most sense... so he felt it should be a religion...
more or less... im sure im missing alot of what he said...lol
so heres a very religious person....admitting the bible is 100% malarchy... but in his words... "nothing that explains mans existance better has come along" so untill he obtains better evidence...hes sticking with the bible...
totally amazing.
When I saw "Ring of Power", I immediately noticed a few glaring mistakes in the film, things that were stated as being factual which were demonstrably untrue. Quest still thought the film had a lot of value, so I started investigating for myself, and the seach quickly led me to an obscure branch of research that people dub "the dragon blood-line". It's VEERRRY interesting in my opinion. As I was trying to get a handle on it, I wrote quite a few lengthy posts about it, they are all there @ that link above.
One thing I never got into though, was the pyamids. Did you know there are pyramids in modern Iran and in China as well? THAT to me is interesting - particularly when you note that written script appears to have appeared first in Sumeria, then Egypt, then in the Indus Valley (and from there to China). I could make more suppositions, maybe about correlations pertaining to shipbuilding, metalurgy, the construction of pyramids and even the myths which would manifest in various pagan belief systems that originated in Sumeria (or, Chaldea if you will - practically the same place...) and how those foundations of "civilization" seem to fan out from ancient Sumeria over the centuries - but it's a lot of work and a lot of the info is controversial or hard to find (on the internet at least). Haha, a little project I got tired of obsessing over.
But, and this reconnects with your above comments Decider, I did discover that evidence of this ancient time comes in the form of those ancient texts, and that stories about what was happening at the time were generally written down in the form of myths and legends - not unlike the bible, there is some decoding that must be done and various texts compared to make any rational assumption about what who where and when - about anything. The bible, which I hadn't had any interest in for decades, suddenly became interesting to me. As a coded record of sorts of ancient history - indeed, the whole doctrine of Kabbala (I'm certain I spelled that wrong - too lazy to look it up) is that of decifering the code of ancient texts to get at the meat of it. Obviously the goal of Kabbala is spiritual enlightenment, while my only interest was in figuring out who was who and where they went and when ... but the "coded" and "mythical" nature of the bible (as I interpret it) can be viewed as merely one example of a slew of other ancient texts that are clouded in mythology and written in codes, so to speak. .... Just an observation.
One thing I never got into though, was the pyamids. Did you know there are pyramids in modern Iran and in China as well? THAT to me is interesting - particularly when you note that written script appears to have appeared first in Sumeria, then Egypt, then in the Indus Valley (and from there to China). I could make more suppositions, maybe about correlations pertaining to shipbuilding, metalurgy, the construction of pyramids and even the myths which would manifest in various pagan belief systems that originated in Sumeria (or, Chaldea if you will - practically the same place...) and how those foundations of "civilization" seem to fan out from ancient Sumeria over the centuries - but it's a lot of work and a lot of the info is controversial or hard to find (on the internet at least). Haha, a little project I got tired of obsessing over.
But, and this reconnects with your above comments Decider, I did discover that evidence of this ancient time comes in the form of those ancient texts, and that stories about what was happening at the time were generally written down in the form of myths and legends - not unlike the bible, there is some decoding that must be done and various texts compared to make any rational assumption about what who where and when - about anything. The bible, which I hadn't had any interest in for decades, suddenly became interesting to me. As a coded record of sorts of ancient history - indeed, the whole doctrine of Kabbala (I'm certain I spelled that wrong - too lazy to look it up) is that of decifering the code of ancient texts to get at the meat of it. Obviously the goal of Kabbala is spiritual enlightenment, while my only interest was in figuring out who was who and where they went and when ... but the "coded" and "mythical" nature of the bible (as I interpret it) can be viewed as merely one example of a slew of other ancient texts that are clouded in mythology and written in codes, so to speak. .... Just an observation.
you noticed ive seen RING OF POWER a few times?...lol.. i loooooove it......given..it contradicts itself a few times... but all and all...it is so jam packed with information, and vertually nothing is proven...just more like a story telling session....wich i dont mind.. cuz i feel that documentaries should bring up a topic..and the viewer should research it..
i posted a new video "ESOTERIC AGENDA" it goes into the "mystery religion" how vertually all symbols and rituals we do are pagen and 2012 it may reveal itself.. "worship of earth" global warming?
toaly awesome movie! 3 times as good as ZEITGEIST
i posted a new video "ESOTERIC AGENDA" it goes into the "mystery religion" how vertually all symbols and rituals we do are pagen and 2012 it may reveal itself.. "worship of earth" global warming?
toaly awesome movie! 3 times as good as ZEITGEIST
QUOTE (THE_DECIDER @ Apr 6 2008, 11:03 AM)
you noticed ive seen RING OF POWER a few times?...lol.. i loooooove it......given..it contradicts itself a few times... but all and all...it is so jam packed with information, and vertually nothing is proven...just more like a story telling session....wich i dont mind.. cuz i feel that documentaries should bring up a topic..and the viewer should research it..
Well put - I feel both of those flicks are important because the subject matter hasn't been touched on in documentary form anywhere else (that I know of). Unfortunately, at times the evidence they provide to support their conclusions leaves a little to be desired. Apart from that, personally, I think both films over-focus on Egypt.
I think the maker of Ring of Power is on the money when she connects the Tribe of Dan to the Danaus of Greece, but I don't think the source of these conquering pagans was Egypt, the impression that film leaves one with.
From a write up I did about the Tribe of Dan -
QUOTE
...Homer called the Greeks "Danois".
Petavius says that Danaus was the son of Bela - who was a sojourner in Egypt - and fled with his tribe to Greece - settling near Argos, a century before the Exodus.
Danau/Danaus' "patriarch" is cited alternately as Belus, Belos, or Bela. Who is Belus?
"Belus (Greek?) the Egyptian is in Greek Mythology a son of Poseidon by Libya. He was a King of Egypt and father of Aegyptus and Danaus."
Another thing I stumbled on to said that Belus was an Egyptian King who sired two sons Aegyptus and Danaus ... his son Danaus ruled LIBYA. Is this why in Greek mythology Belus' mother is described as Libya?
One more:
The ancient Greek records of Hecateus of Abdera, a Greek historian and philosopher of the 4th century B.C., say: “The most distinguished of the expelled foreigners followed Danaus and Cadmus from Egypt; but the greater number were led by Moses into Judća.”
In the Bible, Dan and Nephtali were full brothers, sons of Jacob by a handmaiden named Bilhah. Remembering that Hebrew is written without vowels, could Bilhah somehow represent Bela/Belus? Bela was supposedly Danaus' father in Greek mythology, whereas Bilhah was Dan's mother in the bible. Yet, if one allows for a certain amount of allegory in these stories, it's not crazy to see a possible connection here.
Note this as well, Dan and Nephtali were represented as full brothers and were closely associated. Dan (in the Bible), despite being the 2nd most populous tribe, recieved a paltry portion of land. They decided to invade Laish (a city near Sidon just north of the Israelite lands), killed all the inhabitants and changed the city's name to Dan. (This city was adjacent to Mount Herman, also known as Mt. Sion. Apparently, "Hermes" of Greek legend comes from this Mt. Herman, as does the "Sion" in the Priory of Sion name, not Mt. Zion near Jerusulem.)
More significantly, this new territory that the Tribe of Dan made their own was adjacent to that of the Nephtali tribe. Other writings say that, much later in history, descendents of the tribes of Dan and Naphtali migrated together first to Scythia (which became Khazaria), then later to Scandinavia, Dan settling in Denmark and Naphtali settling in what is now Norway. It's also suggested that the Sc- in "Scandinavia" (as well as "Scotland") derives from Scythia. That the Vikings came from Scythia is widely believed and there's alot of evidence for it. Point is, the tribes of Dan and Nephtali were apparently closely allied, and maybe were regarded as apart from the other tribes, particularly Dan. In a passage from the Old Testament, the "Song of Deborah", the Tribe of Dan is repremanded for "Remaining in Ships" while the other Israelites fought the Canaanites. I read an interesting analysis of this, where the Canaanites of Sidon and Tyre stood by and allowed the tribe of Dan to sack and take over nearby Laish in a sort of neutrality pact, and later to honor this pact the tribe of Dan remained neutral when the other tribes were battling it out with the Canaanites. (Canaanites and Phoenicians are synonomous - Phoenician being the Greek term for the Canaanites btw.) The salient point though, is that the Tribe of Dan didn't care for the land they were given in the south - they prefered to be up north next to their bretheren the Nephtali.
So, if I'm to try and make this connection between the Israelite Dan and the Egyptian Danaus of Greek legend, then is there a parallel correlation between Nephtali and someone else in the Bela/Belus family of legend?
No. But the name sure sounds alot like "Nephilim". Nephilim, of ancient Mesopotamian pagan legend, were fallen angels, sired by the god Elohim paired with human females.
I looked up the origins of the word Naphtali, and here's what I got (remember that the mark of the Tribe of Dan was the serpent) -
"The name Naphtali is commonly understood to come from patal meaning to twist. Derivatives are cord, thread; (petaltol 1857b), tortuous (Deut 32:5); (naptulim 1857c), wrestlings (Gen 30:8).
Some other occurrences of the verb-plus-nun are: Job 5:13 ...the advice of he cunning (; NAS); and Pr 8:8 ...crooked or perverted (; NAS)."
Then there's this:
"Diodorus Siculus (1.27.28) claims that Belus founded a colony on the river Euphrates and appointed the priests whom the Bablyonians call Chaldeans."
And this:
"Modern writers speculate on a possible connection between Belus and one or another god who bore the common northwest Semitic title Ba‘al."
Ba'al ???
And, the name of one of the "fallen angels" (Nephilim) was ... Daniel (Book of Enoch).
One other piece of this puzzle needs to be brought up. The city of Dan was near Tyre, and when Solomon decided to build his temple he appealed to the King of Tyre, who sent him Hiram. Hiram's mother was from the tribe of Dan, and Hiram's workforce were said to be Phoenicians. Read: Canaanites, the ones around Sidon and Tyre just north of Israel proper - the ones who apparently made a pact with their Dan neighbors ... In fact, the Danaus of Egypt/Greece are also often connected to (or said to BE) Phoenicians, or "Sea People". I won't go into the story of Hiram right now, other than to say the legend of Hiram, Solomon's master builder, in many respects mirrors that of the Egyptian god Osiris, and that this story and the meaning behind it is part and parcel of the initiation rite of the 3rd degree in Freemasonry.
To try and tie this all together, we are talking about two allied tribes that were, at least in the case of Dan, the "black sheep" of the Israelites. Both were descended from sons of Jacob by a handmaiden (i.e. illegitimate) . Try to view these stories as allegorical or coded - indeed the whole study of Kabbalah revolves around coded truths. And let go of the idea that the tribe of Dan was Jewish just because they were one of the Israelite tribes ... Judah was in the far south and the tribes of Dan and Nephtali lived in the far north. The whole story of the Israelites strikes me as a story of a large group of people, related but separated into tribes, struggling with the concept of renouncing pagan gods and idols and accepting monotheism. Solomon's pagan ways illustrates the point I think, and in Revelation Dan is excluded from the list of tribes which are "sealed", specifically they were unworthy because of their "pagan traditions".
In other words, not too put too fine a point on it, the tribe of Dan were solidly pagan - and their descendants that sailed or marched out of Egypt and Canaan into Greece, Macedonia, Sardinia, Scythia, Scandinavia, Denmark and the British aisles, overwhelming the indigenous peoples along the way with their superior ships, trading and warring finess and knowlege of metalurgy, carried those pagan beliefs with them wherever they went. Similarities are rife between Druid paganism, Greek paganism and Viking paganism ... and all correlate in various respects with the ancient legends rooted in ancient Mesopotamia/Chaldea, where Dan, or the Danaus (as well as the other patiarchs of the Old Testement for that matter), originated.
This, about an ancient historian, Manetho, who claimed the Hyksos settled in Canaan (further confirmation of the theory put forth in the documentary "Ring of Power", which I mentioned earlier, that the Hapiru and Hyksos kings of Egypt and the Israelites were one and the same), and another historian by the name of Berosus, a priest of Belus, is also very interesting ... remember, Belus was the father of Danaus in Greek legend:
"Manetho, a priest and scribe of Heliopolis, and the Chaldean Berosus, a priest of Belus, both of whom flourished under Ptolemy Philadelphus (285-247), composed accounts in Greek of the history of their respective nations. In the writings of the vanquished to the conquerors, both writers sought to demonstrate that the vanquished peoples were descendents of very ancient and noble civilisations. Berossus, in the Chaldaika to Antiothos I, claimed to base his history on Babylonian astronomical archives 473,000 years old. ... Professor Waddell, in his translation of the works of Manetho [6], said that the works of Berossus and Manetho should be seen principally as expressions of rivalry between Ptolemy and Antiochus, each seeking to proclaim their civilisation the most ancient. "
So Berosus, priest of Belus ("father of Danaus"), was defending his people, a CHALDEAN people, the people to whom Danaus belonged. This is problematic, for the area was not known as Chaldea until the 6th century BC, far too late to be connected with Dan, a (bilblical) son of Jacob. The paradox can only be resolved by accepting these references as being to a "people", refered to as Chaldeans, that long predate the "Chaldean Empire", who's patriarch was Belus, or "Ba'al", the "father" of Dan. These references are never used in connection with Abraham or his descendents, and I believe this distinction is what is meant by Dan being represented as an illegitimate son of Jacob in the Bible.
In addition to records of the Danaus or Danois in Greece, Greek legends are rife with serpents, such as the myth that the Spartans grew out of planted dragon's teeth, or the baby Hercules, born illegitmately of Zeus and the mortal Alcmene, killing two snakes which had been sent by Zeus' lawful wife to kill him, or Cecrops, a half-serpent king of Athens, Athens having just been invaded by the Edoni (e-DON-i) who were (according to the Greeks) descendents of Danp... everywhere I follow the Danau around I see serpents it seems. The story doesn't end with Dan either by any means. I am currently struggling with a book that totally rejects this theory about the tribe of Dan, yet traces bloodlines from ancient Mesopotamia all over Eurasia right into the Royal families of Europe (including the Balkans and parts of Central Asia) and England ... a bloodline he calls the "Dragon bloodline". These dynasties merge and migrate and compete and war with each other and intermarry throughout history, and it's so damn complicated I've almost given up trying to get through it. But the overriding dragon theme has me intriqued.
In the movie Zeitgeist there is a section that describes the precession through the astrological signs as the earth's axis slowly wobbles - each "age" takes approximately 2150 years, we are now in the age of Pieces, before that we were in the age of Aries, and in 2150 we will enter the age of Aquarius. Connected to this (not mentioned in Zeitgeist) is the impermanence of the North Star. At the moment it is Polaris, but a few thousand years ago it was the star Thuban. As the earth slowly wobbles the "north star" will continue to change, tracing out a circle. Within this circle, wrapped around "theoretical-absolute north" is the constellation Draco - the dragon.
Petavius says that Danaus was the son of Bela - who was a sojourner in Egypt - and fled with his tribe to Greece - settling near Argos, a century before the Exodus.
Danau/Danaus' "patriarch" is cited alternately as Belus, Belos, or Bela. Who is Belus?
"Belus (Greek?) the Egyptian is in Greek Mythology a son of Poseidon by Libya. He was a King of Egypt and father of Aegyptus and Danaus."
Another thing I stumbled on to said that Belus was an Egyptian King who sired two sons Aegyptus and Danaus ... his son Danaus ruled LIBYA. Is this why in Greek mythology Belus' mother is described as Libya?
One more:
The ancient Greek records of Hecateus of Abdera, a Greek historian and philosopher of the 4th century B.C., say: “The most distinguished of the expelled foreigners followed Danaus and Cadmus from Egypt; but the greater number were led by Moses into Judća.”
In the Bible, Dan and Nephtali were full brothers, sons of Jacob by a handmaiden named Bilhah. Remembering that Hebrew is written without vowels, could Bilhah somehow represent Bela/Belus? Bela was supposedly Danaus' father in Greek mythology, whereas Bilhah was Dan's mother in the bible. Yet, if one allows for a certain amount of allegory in these stories, it's not crazy to see a possible connection here.
Note this as well, Dan and Nephtali were represented as full brothers and were closely associated. Dan (in the Bible), despite being the 2nd most populous tribe, recieved a paltry portion of land. They decided to invade Laish (a city near Sidon just north of the Israelite lands), killed all the inhabitants and changed the city's name to Dan. (This city was adjacent to Mount Herman, also known as Mt. Sion. Apparently, "Hermes" of Greek legend comes from this Mt. Herman, as does the "Sion" in the Priory of Sion name, not Mt. Zion near Jerusulem.)
More significantly, this new territory that the Tribe of Dan made their own was adjacent to that of the Nephtali tribe. Other writings say that, much later in history, descendents of the tribes of Dan and Naphtali migrated together first to Scythia (which became Khazaria), then later to Scandinavia, Dan settling in Denmark and Naphtali settling in what is now Norway. It's also suggested that the Sc- in "Scandinavia" (as well as "Scotland") derives from Scythia. That the Vikings came from Scythia is widely believed and there's alot of evidence for it. Point is, the tribes of Dan and Nephtali were apparently closely allied, and maybe were regarded as apart from the other tribes, particularly Dan. In a passage from the Old Testament, the "Song of Deborah", the Tribe of Dan is repremanded for "Remaining in Ships" while the other Israelites fought the Canaanites. I read an interesting analysis of this, where the Canaanites of Sidon and Tyre stood by and allowed the tribe of Dan to sack and take over nearby Laish in a sort of neutrality pact, and later to honor this pact the tribe of Dan remained neutral when the other tribes were battling it out with the Canaanites. (Canaanites and Phoenicians are synonomous - Phoenician being the Greek term for the Canaanites btw.) The salient point though, is that the Tribe of Dan didn't care for the land they were given in the south - they prefered to be up north next to their bretheren the Nephtali.
So, if I'm to try and make this connection between the Israelite Dan and the Egyptian Danaus of Greek legend, then is there a parallel correlation between Nephtali and someone else in the Bela/Belus family of legend?
No. But the name sure sounds alot like "Nephilim". Nephilim, of ancient Mesopotamian pagan legend, were fallen angels, sired by the god Elohim paired with human females.
I looked up the origins of the word Naphtali, and here's what I got (remember that the mark of the Tribe of Dan was the serpent) -
"The name Naphtali is commonly understood to come from patal meaning to twist. Derivatives are cord, thread; (petaltol 1857b), tortuous (Deut 32:5); (naptulim 1857c), wrestlings (Gen 30:8).
Some other occurrences of the verb-plus-nun are: Job 5:13 ...the advice of he cunning (; NAS); and Pr 8:8 ...crooked or perverted (; NAS)."
Then there's this:
"Diodorus Siculus (1.27.28) claims that Belus founded a colony on the river Euphrates and appointed the priests whom the Bablyonians call Chaldeans."
And this:
"Modern writers speculate on a possible connection between Belus and one or another god who bore the common northwest Semitic title Ba‘al."
Ba'al ???
And, the name of one of the "fallen angels" (Nephilim) was ... Daniel (Book of Enoch).
One other piece of this puzzle needs to be brought up. The city of Dan was near Tyre, and when Solomon decided to build his temple he appealed to the King of Tyre, who sent him Hiram. Hiram's mother was from the tribe of Dan, and Hiram's workforce were said to be Phoenicians. Read: Canaanites, the ones around Sidon and Tyre just north of Israel proper - the ones who apparently made a pact with their Dan neighbors ... In fact, the Danaus of Egypt/Greece are also often connected to (or said to BE) Phoenicians, or "Sea People". I won't go into the story of Hiram right now, other than to say the legend of Hiram, Solomon's master builder, in many respects mirrors that of the Egyptian god Osiris, and that this story and the meaning behind it is part and parcel of the initiation rite of the 3rd degree in Freemasonry.
To try and tie this all together, we are talking about two allied tribes that were, at least in the case of Dan, the "black sheep" of the Israelites. Both were descended from sons of Jacob by a handmaiden (i.e. illegitimate) . Try to view these stories as allegorical or coded - indeed the whole study of Kabbalah revolves around coded truths. And let go of the idea that the tribe of Dan was Jewish just because they were one of the Israelite tribes ... Judah was in the far south and the tribes of Dan and Nephtali lived in the far north. The whole story of the Israelites strikes me as a story of a large group of people, related but separated into tribes, struggling with the concept of renouncing pagan gods and idols and accepting monotheism. Solomon's pagan ways illustrates the point I think, and in Revelation Dan is excluded from the list of tribes which are "sealed", specifically they were unworthy because of their "pagan traditions".
In other words, not too put too fine a point on it, the tribe of Dan were solidly pagan - and their descendants that sailed or marched out of Egypt and Canaan into Greece, Macedonia, Sardinia, Scythia, Scandinavia, Denmark and the British aisles, overwhelming the indigenous peoples along the way with their superior ships, trading and warring finess and knowlege of metalurgy, carried those pagan beliefs with them wherever they went. Similarities are rife between Druid paganism, Greek paganism and Viking paganism ... and all correlate in various respects with the ancient legends rooted in ancient Mesopotamia/Chaldea, where Dan, or the Danaus (as well as the other patiarchs of the Old Testement for that matter), originated.
This, about an ancient historian, Manetho, who claimed the Hyksos settled in Canaan (further confirmation of the theory put forth in the documentary "Ring of Power", which I mentioned earlier, that the Hapiru and Hyksos kings of Egypt and the Israelites were one and the same), and another historian by the name of Berosus, a priest of Belus, is also very interesting ... remember, Belus was the father of Danaus in Greek legend:
"Manetho, a priest and scribe of Heliopolis, and the Chaldean Berosus, a priest of Belus, both of whom flourished under Ptolemy Philadelphus (285-247), composed accounts in Greek of the history of their respective nations. In the writings of the vanquished to the conquerors, both writers sought to demonstrate that the vanquished peoples were descendents of very ancient and noble civilisations. Berossus, in the Chaldaika to Antiothos I, claimed to base his history on Babylonian astronomical archives 473,000 years old. ... Professor Waddell, in his translation of the works of Manetho [6], said that the works of Berossus and Manetho should be seen principally as expressions of rivalry between Ptolemy and Antiochus, each seeking to proclaim their civilisation the most ancient. "
So Berosus, priest of Belus ("father of Danaus"), was defending his people, a CHALDEAN people, the people to whom Danaus belonged. This is problematic, for the area was not known as Chaldea until the 6th century BC, far too late to be connected with Dan, a (bilblical) son of Jacob. The paradox can only be resolved by accepting these references as being to a "people", refered to as Chaldeans, that long predate the "Chaldean Empire", who's patriarch was Belus, or "Ba'al", the "father" of Dan. These references are never used in connection with Abraham or his descendents, and I believe this distinction is what is meant by Dan being represented as an illegitimate son of Jacob in the Bible.
In addition to records of the Danaus or Danois in Greece, Greek legends are rife with serpents, such as the myth that the Spartans grew out of planted dragon's teeth, or the baby Hercules, born illegitmately of Zeus and the mortal Alcmene, killing two snakes which had been sent by Zeus' lawful wife to kill him, or Cecrops, a half-serpent king of Athens, Athens having just been invaded by the Edoni (e-DON-i) who were (according to the Greeks) descendents of Danp... everywhere I follow the Danau around I see serpents it seems. The story doesn't end with Dan either by any means. I am currently struggling with a book that totally rejects this theory about the tribe of Dan, yet traces bloodlines from ancient Mesopotamia all over Eurasia right into the Royal families of Europe (including the Balkans and parts of Central Asia) and England ... a bloodline he calls the "Dragon bloodline". These dynasties merge and migrate and compete and war with each other and intermarry throughout history, and it's so damn complicated I've almost given up trying to get through it. But the overriding dragon theme has me intriqued.
In the movie Zeitgeist there is a section that describes the precession through the astrological signs as the earth's axis slowly wobbles - each "age" takes approximately 2150 years, we are now in the age of Pieces, before that we were in the age of Aries, and in 2150 we will enter the age of Aquarius. Connected to this (not mentioned in Zeitgeist) is the impermanence of the North Star. At the moment it is Polaris, but a few thousand years ago it was the star Thuban. As the earth slowly wobbles the "north star" will continue to change, tracing out a circle. Within this circle, wrapped around "theoretical-absolute north" is the constellation Draco - the dragon.
When I discovered that there are ancient pyramids in China (as well as Iran), I couldn't help but wonder about a connection between the royal dragon theme in China to this Chaldea-based fountainhead of pagan worship and conquering traditions. I did find some evidence that the first written texts in both Egypt and the Indus Valley (from where Chinese civilization has it's roots) appeared some centuries after when the first Cuneiform tablets from Mesopotamia are dated, but evidence of a connection is scant. An interesting possibility, nonetheless.
Haha, look what I stumbled on @ myspace
http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseac...oupID=102396676
http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseac...oupID=102396676
QUOTE (Sanders @ Apr 3 2008, 11:13 AM)
Haha, look what I stumbled on @ myspace
http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseac...oupID=102396676
http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseac...oupID=102396676
Hierosololo...Wah
???
Carl's Religous Glossary (CRG)
Taoism : sh*t happens.
Confucianism : Confucius says, sh*t happens.
Buddhism : sh*t happening is an illusion.
Zen : What is the sound of sh*t happening?
Islam : sh*t happening is the will of Allah.
Catholecism : If sh*t happens, you deserve it.
Protestantism : Let sh*t happen to someone else.
Judaism : Why does sh*t always happen to us?
Calvinism : sh*t happens because you don't work hard enough.
Christian Sciene : If sh*t happens, pray and it will go away.
Mormonism : If sh*t happens, sh*t it!
Hinduism : That sh*t has happened before.
Hare Krishna : sh*t happens, sh*t happens, sh*t, sh*t, happens, happens.
Atheism : sh*t happens for no reason at all.
Agnostic : Maybe sh*t happens, maybe it doesn't.
Stoicism : So sh*t happens, I can take it.
Paganism : sh*t is a part of the Goddess too.
Jehova's wittness : Let us in and we'll tell you why sh*t happens.
Scientology : Join a course and you'll know why sh*t happens.
Rastafarianism : Let's smoke this sh*t and see what happens.
Laotseism : The sh*t that can be described is not the absolute sh*t.
Oshoism : If you don't see sh*t in my eyes, in my gesture and in my silence, you will never find it in my words.
Byronkatiesm : What would you be without that sh*t?
Bachism : If you give a few drops of this sh*t in a bottle and take it four times daily, you are able to better bear all the other sh*t.
Yoganandaism : Always concentrate on the sh*t on the top of your head
Rumiism : Love that sh*t.
Freudism : Let's talk about your sh*t since childhood.
Papajism : There is no sh*t.
Satsangism : Damned, why don't sh*t understand that sh*t already is that sh*t?!
Tatrism : Breath deeply into the sh*t.
Avatarism : I am the source of all this sh*t.
Astrologism : Tell me your birthdate and I tell you the exactly second when your mothers aunt will have her next sh*t.
Sannyaism : The sh*t of my master tastes better than yours.
Yogism : Press your ass and keep it inside.
Vipassanaism : Watch that sh*t, passing your body, as it naturally flows
Bad Bankism : Carl
Taoism : sh*t happens.
Confucianism : Confucius says, sh*t happens.
Buddhism : sh*t happening is an illusion.
Zen : What is the sound of sh*t happening?
Islam : sh*t happening is the will of Allah.
Catholecism : If sh*t happens, you deserve it.
Protestantism : Let sh*t happen to someone else.
Judaism : Why does sh*t always happen to us?
Calvinism : sh*t happens because you don't work hard enough.
Christian Sciene : If sh*t happens, pray and it will go away.
Mormonism : If sh*t happens, sh*t it!
Hinduism : That sh*t has happened before.
Hare Krishna : sh*t happens, sh*t happens, sh*t, sh*t, happens, happens.
Atheism : sh*t happens for no reason at all.
Agnostic : Maybe sh*t happens, maybe it doesn't.
Stoicism : So sh*t happens, I can take it.
Paganism : sh*t is a part of the Goddess too.
Jehova's wittness : Let us in and we'll tell you why sh*t happens.
Scientology : Join a course and you'll know why sh*t happens.
Rastafarianism : Let's smoke this sh*t and see what happens.
Laotseism : The sh*t that can be described is not the absolute sh*t.
Oshoism : If you don't see sh*t in my eyes, in my gesture and in my silence, you will never find it in my words.
Byronkatiesm : What would you be without that sh*t?
Bachism : If you give a few drops of this sh*t in a bottle and take it four times daily, you are able to better bear all the other sh*t.
Yoganandaism : Always concentrate on the sh*t on the top of your head
Rumiism : Love that sh*t.
Freudism : Let's talk about your sh*t since childhood.
Papajism : There is no sh*t.
Satsangism : Damned, why don't sh*t understand that sh*t already is that sh*t?!
Tatrism : Breath deeply into the sh*t.
Avatarism : I am the source of all this sh*t.
Astrologism : Tell me your birthdate and I tell you the exactly second when your mothers aunt will have her next sh*t.
Sannyaism : The sh*t of my master tastes better than yours.
Yogism : Press your ass and keep it inside.
Vipassanaism : Watch that sh*t, passing your body, as it naturally flows
Bad Bankism : Carl
deep sh*t Carl .. deep !! 
way too funny, carl. are you sure you aren't george carlin?
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