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Sanders
e-Dog and I have decided to re-constitute this from LC. It is a thread about the 3 major religions of the world. The goal was to follow the path of each from their common origins to the present day. We (a number of LC posters and I) got as far as the begining of the First Crusade while the thread was active.

What becomes of this thread when all the copying is done is not clear. It may be just a read-only thread for the Religion topic. Or it may be left open to posting, so we can finish the journey.
librarian
Posted by: Sanders Jul 28 2006, 08:12 PM

Religion pops up so much on this board lately, I thought it might be interesting to compile our own "history of Islam, Judaeism and Christianity".

I'm not going to write it, interested posters are. Anyone that wants to contribute can help. I have some rules though -

Rules:

Discussion will be sequential. I'll start it off with Abraham. No one gets to talk about Lawrence of Arabia until we've talked about the Ottoman Empire, we don't get to talk about the Ottomans until after we touch on the Spanish Inquisistion, etc.

Try to limit to what is fact and what is not. For example, Muslims BELIEVE that Mohammed rose with Jesus and visited heaven. That is true, true Muslims believe that (I think?). Also, who invaded what part of the world when, stuff like that. That's what we want.

Try to keep the posts succinct and easy to comprehend. Try to summarise, giving your take on a particular event. If people say, Bulls#it!, then you can get into more detail to back up your view.

I reserve the right to play referee.

My goal in starting this thread is to (a) inform; and (b ) prove that people can discuss religion without starting a war. tongue.gif
librarian
Posted by: FL2 Jul 28 2006, 08:18 PM

In egyptians times, it was a 100% matriarchy(women ruled).
Men weren't allowed to vote, learn. They were basically slaves to females.
Then came a group of guys who had an idealogical vision (sort of like PNAC) and proclaimed that God is a man and and that men now had the right to rule. They could now do things like stone their wives an what not.

From then on it took it's course and has turned into something we have today.

Islam is the Arabs answer to the Holy Roman Empire.

Takes what's good from the bible and quran and burn them.
librarian
Posted by: water_bender Jul 28 2006, 08:19 PM


abraham had 2 sons ishmael and isaac. ishmael is the father of the arabs, isaac the same for the israelites.
librarian
Posted by: Sanders Jul 28 2006, 08:31 PM


QUOTE
In egyptians times, it was a 100% matriarchy(women ruled).
Men weren't allowed to vote, learn. They were basically slaves to females.
Then came a group of guys who had an idealogical vision (sort of like PNAC) and proclaimed that God is a man and and that men now had the right to rule. They could now do things like stone their wives an what not.



Even better place to start ! Far out... Wait, what are talking, when you say 'Egyptian times'?? How does that line up with Abraham's life and death? Are you saying the switch from a Matriarcial society started with Abraham?

QUOTE
abraham had 2 sons ishmael and isaac. ishmael is the father of the arabs, isaac the same for the israelites.



That's what I call succinct. salute.gif While you posted that I was writing this -

So God told Abraham that his descendant(s) would inherit the kingdom of God (in Israel), but his wife Sarah couldn't get pregnant. But Abraham was porking Hagar's Egyptian slave Hagar, who concieved and bore a son, Ishmael. Sarah was pissed, but couldn't say much - that is until she herself got pregnant. After she bore a son, Isaac, she told Abraham to 'send away that hussey and her bastard son'. Abraham felt bad, but God told him, "don't worry, I'll watch over Hagar and Ishmael, and Ishmael will have his own kingdom", and with that Abraham sent Hagar and her son out into the desert.

Ishmael settled in Saudi Arabia, and Arabs generally believe that they are all descended from him. Isaac went to Israel, and the Jews believe they are descended from him.

So basically, the Palestinian conflict, the business in Lebanon, and maybe half the world's wars could've all been prevented if Abraham hadn't slept around.

Is that about right?
librarian
Posted by: specimen0420 Jul 28 2006, 08:41 PM

Astro-Theology

This will take hours to read, but it is loaded with info and resources.

A few questions answered:

Who the hell are these few wanting to take over the world?
What are the real identities of the main characters in the Bible?
Who are the real Jews?
Where did Israel come from?

Wonderful Entymology (origins of words), for example; Christians out there should look at why you say "Amen" at the end of a prayer.

Here's a few good ones:
ISRAEL
A fascinating composite word, ISIS, RA and EL. These are three gods of the ancient Cults. There where 4 major Cults, one replacing the other through time. Finally these Cults joined up and became one. The earliest cult is the Stellar, next came the Lunar, then the Saturnian and then the Solar. The illusion that their where voluminous pantheons of gods is a result of these cults. (see, Da Vinci and Bottecelli, Mona Lisa and Last Supper, etc,.)

DAVID / DOVE
Means Divide and indicates 'Geometry.' The letters of the word seen geometrically make the Star of David. The two "D"s become a circle, the "A" is a triangle, the "V" is an downward facing triangle. We also derive the word Dove from David. This is why there is a dove on the modern credit card and why the Royalty also use the symbol. In Spanish the word for Dove is Columba, or Columbanus. This is where the Knights of Columbus get their name. The District of Columbia, British Columbia, Columbia (SA), Columbia Pictures, Columbia Records, Christopher Columbus and Columbine High School, all derive from the secret meaning of this term and symbol. The name of Columbus, was adopted by Christopher Columbus because he was in the pay of the Knights of Malta, the real founders and owners of America. We still see the pictures of the ships in which Columbus sailed. On the sails was the red cross of the Knights of Malta, also known as the Knights of Columbus. Another of their symbols, the dove, is also found on Greenpeace, and in the movie For your eyes only, the criminal group of crack assassins use the symbol. The Knights of Columbus trace their occult history from the actual Assassins of the Persians. Also from davad, meaning sexual desire.
librarian
Posted by: turturis Jul 28 2006, 09:30 PM


QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 03:31 PM)
QUOTE
In egyptians times, it was a 100% matriarchy(women ruled).
Men weren't allowed to vote, learn. They were basically slaves to females.
Then came a group of guys who had an idealogical vision (sort of like PNAC) and proclaimed that God is a man and and that men now had the right to rule. They could now do things like stone their wives an what not.


Even better place to start ! Far out... Wait, what are talking, when you say 'Egyptian times'?? How does that line up with Abraham's life and death? Are you saying the switch from a Matriarcial society started with Abraham?

QUOTE
abraham had 2 sons ishmael and isaac. ishmael is the father of the arabs, isaac the same for the israelites.

That's what I call succinct. While you posted that I was writing this -

So God told Abraham that his descendant(s) would inherit the kingdom of God (in Israel), but his wife Sarah couldn't get pregnant. But Abraham was porking Hagar's Egyptian slave Hagar, who concieved and bore a son, Ishmael. Sarah was pissed, but couldn't say much - that is until she herself got pregnant. After she bore a son, Isaac, she told Abraham to 'send away that hussey and her bastard son'. Abraham felt bad, but God told him, "don't worry, I'll watch over Hagar and Ishmael, and Ishmael will have his own kingdom", and with that Abraham sent Hagar and her son out into the desert.

Ishmael settled in Saudi Arabia, and Arabs generally believe that they are all descended from him. Isaac went to Israel, and the Jews believe they are descended from him.

So basically, the Palestinian conflict, the business in Lebanon, and maybe half the world's wars could've all been prevented if Abraham hadn't slept around.

Is that about right?


sarah wasnt pissed...she gave her handmaiden to abe because she was baren. it was customary in those days for a women who was baren to give her handmaiden to the husband.

sanders...i thought you were serious.....this doesnt really seem like its off to a good start
librarian
Posted by: Sanders Jul 28 2006, 09:55 PM


QUOTE (turturis @ Jul 29 2006 @ 06:30 AM)
sarah wasnt pissed...she gave her handmaiden to abe because she was baren.  it was customary in those days for a women who was baren to give her handmaiden to the husband.

sanders...i thought you were serious.....this doesnt really seem like its off to a good start


What?? Whadd I do?
Now, see, I didn't know that. I just learned something.
And I am serious ...
Now once Sarah was able to have a son, she DID tell Abraham to send Hagar away, right?
librarian
Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 28 2006, 10:31 PM

QUOTE (FL2 @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:18 PM)
In egyptians times, it was a 100% matriarchy(women ruled).
Men weren't allowed to vote, learn. They were basically slaves to females.
Then came a group of guys who had an idealogical vision (sort of like PNAC) and proclaimed that God is a man and and that men now had the right to rule. They could now do things like stone their wives an what not.

From then on it took it's course and has turned into something we have today.

Islam is the Arabs answer to the Holy Roman Empire.

Takes what's good from the bible and quran and burn them.


That is false because God has no gender in Islam. As for Abraham, he was one of the most important prophets of God ever, and is the only one in the Qur'an mentioned as a Friend of God. His firstborn was Ishmael (who is considered Father of the Arabs) and Ishmael's mom was Hagar, who was Abraham's second wife. Islamic belief holds that Abraham married Hagar, the mother of Ishmael. As a result, Ishmael was the first legitimate son of Abraham. Islam asserts that he was the one nearly sacrificed, not Isaac. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son for God is celebrated by Muslims every year as Eid ul-Adha. As for Isaac, he is consider the Father of the Israelis. Isaac was the second son of Abraham by his first-wife Sarah. It is recorded that she laughed when God gave her good tidings of the birth of Isaac (14:39)(11:71-72)(37:112-113). Islamic tradition holds that he was born nine years after Ishmael who was Abraham's son from his second-wife Hagar. He was born after Abraham attempted to sacrifice Ishmael. As for Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael, all are revered and significant prophets. Isaac went on to have twins who were Esau and Jacob. Jacob became a prophet and had twelve sons and a daughter. His sons would go on to father the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Among his sons was another prophet named Joseph.
librarian
Posted by: FL2 Jul 28 2006, 10:49 PM

QUOTE
A fascinating composite word, ISIS, RA and EL.


Just checked

Is = Stands for Isis, the queen of the throne.
Ra = symbolizes the Sun
El = The supreme God (masculine entity)
librarian
Posted by: Sanders Jul 28 2006, 11:21 PM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 29 2006 @ 07:31 AM)
As for Abraham, he was one of the most important prophets of God ever, and is the only one in the Qur'an mentioned as a Friend of God. His firstborn was Ishmael (who is considered Father of the Arabs) and Ishmael's mom was Hagar, who was Abraham's second wife. Islamic belief holds that Abraham married Hagar, the mother of Ishmael. As a result, Ishmael was the first legitimate son of Abraham. Islam asserts that he was the one nearly sacrificed, not Isaac. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son for God is celebrated by Muslims every year as Eid ul-Adha. As for Isaac, he is consider the Father of the Israelis. Isaac was the second son of Abraham by his first-wife Sarah. It is recorded that she laughed when God gave her good tidings of the birth of Isaac (14:39)(11:71-72)(37:112-113). Islamic tradition holds that he was born nine years after Ishmael who was Abraham's son from his second-wife Hagar. He was born after Abraham attempted to sacrifice Ishmael. As for Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael, all are revered and significant prophets. Isaac went on to have twins who were Esau and Jacob. Jacob became a prophet and had twelve sons and a daughter. His sons would go on to father the Twelve Tribes of Israel. Among his sons was another prophet named Joseph. 

Interesting - I had never heard Abraham and Hagar were married - (I'm not a religious guy, don't read the Bible so you'll have to forgive me). Would it be fair to say that Islam teaches that they were married while Judaeism and Christianity teach that they were not?
librarian
Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 12:11 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 11:21 PM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 29 2006 @ 07:31 AM)
As for Abraham, he was one of the most important prophets of God ever, and is the only one in the Qur'an mentioned as a Friend of God.  His firstborn was Ishmael (who is considered Father of the Arabs) and Ishmael's mom was Hagar, who was Abraham's second wife. Islamic belief holds that Abraham married Hagar, the mother of Ishmael. As a result, Ishmael was the first legitimate son of Abraham. Islam asserts that he was the one nearly sacrificed, not Isaac. Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son for God is celebrated by Muslims every year as Eid ul-Adha.  As for Isaac, he is consider the Father of the Israelis.  Isaac was the second son of Abraham by his first-wife Sarah.  It is recorded that she laughed when God gave her good tidings of the birth of Isaac (14:39)(11:71-72)(37:112-113).  Islamic tradition holds that he was born nine years after Ishmael who was Abraham's son from his second-wife Hagar. He was born after Abraham attempted to sacrifice Ishmael.  As for Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael, all are revered and significant prophets.  Isaac went on to have twins who were Esau and Jacob.  Jacob became a prophet and had twelve sons and a daughter. His sons would go on to father the Twelve Tribes of Israel.  Among his sons was another prophet named Joseph. 

Interesting - I had never heard Abraham and Hagar were married - (I'm not a religious guy, don't read the Bible so you'll have to forgive me). Would it be fair to say that Islam teaches that they were married while Judaeism and Christianity teach that they were not? 


Actually, Hagar is, according to the Bible, Abraham's wife. He is an excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagar_%28Bibl...in_Islamic_Lore

"The story of Hagar is found in Genesis 16 and 21. The narrative states that Hagar was an Egyptian servant belonging to Sarah, who, being barren, gave her to Abraham for a wife, that by her, as a substitute, might bear him children."

Also, according to this, she was Abraham's wife. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagar

So the Biblical and Quranic accounts of the life of the Prophet Abraham (peace be upon him) are similar in so many ways, including the fact that Hagar was his wife, given to him by Sara. Sara's slave was Hagar, but she gave her to Abraham since she was barren.
librarian
Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 03:10 AM

You know, Jews, Christians, and Muslims are so closely alike. We worship the same One God, we believe in many of the same prophets and messengers of God, we believe in angels, the afterlife, and etc. All three of those religions are Abrahamic religions. We are all monotheists. To see similarities between the Bible and the Qur'an, visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Similarities_...nd_the_Qur%27an

We all agree that the Torah and Psalms came from God to Moses and David, Christians and Muslims both believe that the Gospel came from God to Jesus, and only Muslims believe that the Qur'an came from God to Muhammad. If you read about the similarities, you'll realize that Islam has come to be misunderstood by many and that Christianity and Judaism are very close in beliefs.
librarian
Posted by: roger Jul 29 2006, 03:24 AM


And then, as the mushroom cloud rose up over Tel Aviv, Muslims around the world jumped up and down, smacked themselves in the face with heavy chains and scream "Allah akbar!"

Meanwhile the Americans watched on TV in stunned amazament, mostly saying "Jesus H f*cking Christ look what they just did!"

Followed by a guy in Cheyenne mountain unlocking a special little box while he whispered, "God forgive me"...


woops, I skipped right to the last chapter.


religion=
librarian
Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 03:24 AM


QUOTE (roger @ Jul 29 2006 @ 03:24 AM)
And then, as the mushroom cloud rose up over Tel Aviv, Muslims around the world jumped up and down, smacked themselves in the face with heavy chains and scream "Allah akbar!"

Meanwhile the Americans watched on TV in stunned amazament, mostly saying "Jesus H f*cking Christ look what they just did!"

Followed by a guy in Cheyenne mountain unlocking a special little box while he whispered, "God forgive me"...


woops, I skipped right to the last chapter.


religion= 

Listen, if you are not going to contribute to this thread then don't post anything. You don't see me making fun of your beliefs, so don't make fun of mine.
librarian
Posted by: Daniels Jul 29 2006, 03:35 AM


QUOTE (roger @ Jul 29 2006 @ 03:24 AM)
religion= 

Durn Roger. I thought THEY were SKEPTICS!! doh1.gif
librarian
Posted by: Daniels Jul 29 2006, 04:18 AM


QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:12 PM)
My goal in starting this thread is to (a) inform; and (b ) prove that people can discuss religion without starting a war. 

I feel, Sanders, that the fingers may be moving toward the triggers to fire the first shots of WWIII.

Discussing religion has an inherant flaw. There are so many differing viewpoints that no two people can agree on the subject. So discussing the history of religion is bound to cause clash upon clash.

Throw into the mix a few remarks from rabid atheists (I used to be one) and suddenly the pot boils violently, spilling its fiery contents onto all who surround it. unsure.gif
librarian
Posted by: roger Jul 29 2006, 04:38 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 28 2006 @ 09:18 PM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:12 PM)
My goal in starting this thread is to (a) inform; and (b ) prove that people can discuss religion without starting a war.
 

I feel, Sanders, that the fingers may be moving toward the triggers to fire the first shots of WWIII. 

Discussing religion has an inherant flaw. There are so many differing viewpoints that no two people can agree on the subject. So discussing the history of religion is bound to cause clash upon clash.

Throw into the mix a few remarks from rabid atheists (I used to be one) and suddenly the pot boils violently, spilling its fiery contents onto all who surround it.


Alright, I want to contribute something vaguely meaningful to this thread since I've gone and called it what it is again (a personal note, I have sacrificed my own here, I turned off the "show signatures" option in the control panel just so I wouldn't have to see gm's stupid f*@kin quotes, thereby missing out on chucksheens ongoing works of art).

So tell me what you make of this-


Psalm 83

O God, do not keep silent;
be not quiet, O God, be not still.
See how your enemies are astir,
how your foes rear their heads.
With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
“Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
that the name of Israel be remembered no more.”


Discovered in a bog in Ireland last week, a 1,200 year old bible opened to Psalm 83

God's pissed and he's coming to eat you
librarian
Posted by: roger Jul 29 2006, 04:48 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:35 PM)
QUOTE (roger @ Jul 29 2006 @ 03:24 AM)
religion=

Durn Roger. I thought THEY were SKEPTICS!! 

Skeptics are harder to spot. They blend in with any other group.

I caught up with one today...can you find him in this picture?

[image no longer available]
librarian
Posted by: Daniels Jul 29 2006, 05:01 AM

QUOTE (roger @ Jul 29 2006 @ 04:38 AM)
QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 28 2006 @ 09:18 PM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 28 2006 @ 08:12 PM)
My goal in starting this thread is to (a) inform; and (b ) prove that people can discuss religion without starting a war.  tongue.gif

I feel, Sanders, that the fingers may be moving toward the triggers to fire the first shots of WWIII. 

Discussing religion has an inherant flaw. There are so many differing viewpoints that no two people can agree on the subject. So discussing the history of religion is bound to cause clash upon clash.

Throw into the mix a few remarks from rabid atheists (I used to be one) and suddenly the pot boils violently, spilling its fiery contents onto all who surround it.  unsure.gif

Alright, I want to contribute something vaguely meaningful to this thread since I've gone and called it what it is again (a personal note, I have sacrificed my own here, I turned off the "show signatures" option in the control panel just so I wouldn't have to see gm's stupid f*ckin quotes, thereby missing out on chucksheens ongoing works of art).

So tell me what you make of this-


Psalm 83

O God, do not keep silent;
be not quiet, O God, be not still.
See how your enemies are astir,
how your foes rear their heads.
With cunning they conspire against your people;
they plot against those you cherish.
“Come,” they say, “let us destroy them as a nation,
that the name of Israel be remembered no more.”


Discovered in a bog in Ireland last week, a 1,200 year old bible opened to Psalm 83

God's pissed and he's coming to eat you


Roger, the god that you don't believe in, I don't believe in either.

I do believe in God, but I believe that He is far above the petty contrivances that we humans bicker over.

We tend to invent a partisan god that will one day zap all the infidels and unbelievers and raise us true believers up to heights of glory so that we can proudly proclaim, "There! Told you so!"

So I will tell you about the God that I believe in. My sincerest apologies to those these viewpoints may offend.

1 All great religions are from God.

2 These religions are revealed to us sequentially similar to teachers in a school who take us step by step from year 1 to year 7 (or something similar).

3 When a religion is new born it is powerful and dynamic. Because it is opposed by the entrenched authorities (often the previous religion) no 'hangers on' join up.

4 As the religion becomes established people realize that it is a shortcut to power, so the freeloaders start to climb on board.

5 The religion effloresces in its summertime glory, establishing a civilization that is the epitome of human development.

6 Eventually the freeloaders fully corrupt the religion and it becomes a spent force in human affairs.

7 At this point a new Holy Prophet of God appears and begins the cycle again.

So when we look at religion in the world around us what we see is the depleted structures of bygone glory.

Islam was truy glorious in the European Dark Ages, Christianity during the time of Constantine, Judaism during the ancient Greek civilization.

Perhaps future historians will be able to trace the influence of the Prophets on Egypt and Mesopotamia (or Ur or Sumeria).
librarian
Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 07:04 AM

QUOTE
I feel, Sanders, that the fingers may be moving toward the triggers to fire the first shots of WWIII.


You mean in Lebanon or here? I thought all the posts were good reads - roger was a little reckless as he always is with his wording choices ("god is coming to eat you") but pretty funny too so I'll let it slide...

QUOTE
Perhaps future historians will be able to trace the influence of the Prophets on Egypt and Mesopotamia (or Ur or Sumeria).


Enlighten us !

Also, we need to put stuff in context time-wise. Abraham was, what, around 2000 BC ? And he came from Ur, right? Ur looks like it's in Southern Iraq on a modern map to me...

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/5354/sumereu4.gif

Also I read somwhere that Ur is the birthplace of law - just gooled Ur and got this.

"Ur-Nammu's Code, dates from this time. Although called Ur-Nammu's Code, it is generally agreed that it was written by his son Shugli. (The code allowed for the dismissal of corrupt men, protection of the poor, giving testomony under oath, and the ability of judges to order damages be paid to a victim by the guilty party)."

Ah, those were the days, eh?

OK, thanks eveyone for the great posts - anyone is free to move on to what happens to Abraham's kids BTW -
librarian
Posted by: water_bender Jul 29 2006, 07:40 AM

if we're really gonna get t the nitty gritty of it all 3 sects of the abrahamic religions can be traced back to babylon and zoroastor (who is also a prophet btw, also know as zarathustra). it was his brand of religion that setup the initial ideas of a heaven, hell, angels, judgement day, etc. and yaweh was a originally a god of wind. but yes the three sects are quite similar, with judeaism being the opressive controlling, wealth obsessed core. christianity being the 'light' version that centers power in the church, and then islam which is also split between shiite and sunni one thats as oppressive as judaism, minus the wealth, plus women hatred and the other has the same only adding in violence as a way of glorifying god.
librarian
Posted by: Chris Sarns Jul 29 2006, 07:51 AM

GreatMuslim: Don't take offence at sanders satire or rogers rhetoric. It was ment to be humorous while expressing a vpoint of view.

For what it's worth, here's my 'religion'

There is only God, everything else is bullshit

God is the life force that flows through all living things

We must therefore love and respect all living things

That which brings us togeather is good, that which separates us is bad

Take only that from your religion which is good and discard the rest
librarian
Posted by: pr0mythius Jul 29 2006, 08:04 AM

isnt it safe to say that any one ever called a prophet is really no more than just someone that said something that made sense to a lotta people so they deamed it as truth .. or the forecasting there of?
librarian
Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 11:58 AM

QUOTE (Chris Sarns @ Jul 29 2006 @ 04:51 PM)
GreatMuslim: Don't take offence at sanders satire or rogers retoric. It was ment to be humorous while expressing a vpoint of view.

For what it's worth, here's my 'religion'

There is only God, everything else is bullshit

God is the life force that flows through all living things

We must therefore love and respect all living things

That which brings us togeather is good, that which separates us is bad

Take only that from your religion which is good and discard the rest

Thanks Chris. I do tend to inject a little sarcasm once in a while - I mean no disrespect by it. For anyone who cares, I personally am not religious - it's funny, I think I was a happier human being before I found "darwin". But I support people believing in what they want - I wonder sometimes if the world would be a better, more peaceful place without monotheistic religion, or an even more chaotic one. Food for thought, eh? Either way, I agree with Jimmy Carter (Our Endangered Values: America's Moral Crisis) that 'fundamentalism' in any denomination is dangerous. "That which brings us togeather is good, that which separates us is bad" (ChrisSarns from above).

The posts from GreatMuslim were about the best posts from you I think I've ever read - thanks for straightening me out.

The business of which son Abraham was told to sacrifice is a point of contention, the Bible and the Quran differ on this, and the two versions support different versions of what was promised to which progeny - but really, the point is that this was the source, these stories are where the 3 religions sprang from. The details can't be seriously argued - I mean, according to the Bible Sarah was 90 when she had Isaac? 90 ?? Abraham lived to 175 ??

But what do we know about the minds of people several thousand years ago, or the liberties that were common in the telling of stories? I have heard that the Quran is like poetry - and the speed with which the Islamic faith converted peoples is partially attributed to the beauty of the book's prose - something that can't be appreciated when read in anything but Arabic.

I can only imagine this story told in Arabic:

"Abraham had left Mecca on God’s command, leaving Hagar and Ishmael with only some water and dates. Hagar nursed her son and they drank the remaining water. Soon thereafter, faced with great thirst, Ishmael started to cry and Hagar began to run between the hills of Safa and Marwa looking for water. She repeated the journey seven times until an angel appeared to her, striking the ground with his wing, with the result that the Zamzam spring, which Muslims consider as a tributary of the waters of Paradise, sprang forth. Henceforth Mecca was graced with a source of water which has continued flowing to this day."

Ironically, right after that passage is this, which is right where I wanted to go -

QUOTE
After the departure and return of Abraham to Mecca, and his discovery that Hagar had died, Abraham was then ordered by God to make Hagar’s house into a temple where people could pray. Therefore, he demolished the house and began construction of the Ka’ba. God gave Abraham precise instructions concerning how to rebuild the shrine and Gabriel showed him the location. It is said that by the grace of God the Divine Peace (al-sakinah) descended in the form of a wind which brought a cloud in the shape of a dragon that revealed to Abraham and Ishmael the site of the old temple. They were told to construct the shrine directly upon the shadow of the cloud, neither exceeding nor diminishing its dimensions. Legends say the shrine was built from the stones of five sacred mountains: Mt. Sinai, the Mount of Olives, Mt. Lebanon, Al-Judi, and nearby Mt. Hira. Upon the completion of the shrine, Gabriel brought a magic stone for the sanctuary. Different sources speculate that this stone was a meteorite or a great white sapphire from the Garden of Eden, that it had been concealed on the nearby sacred mountain of Abu Qubays during the period of the flood, and that it was later restored to Abraham for inclusion in his version of the Ka’ba. Whatever its ultimate origin, the stone was most probably a sacred object of the pre-Islamic Arabian nomads who had settled around the Zamzam spring that flows at the center of old Mecca. Upon completion of the Ka’ba, Abraham and Ishmael, accompanied by the archangel Gabriel, then performed all the elements which constitute the Hajj ritual of today

Now I am easily confused about all this, and I was searching around to find out where Isaac went, and I was surprised to read in this which isn't particularly worthy of reading really, but it said that "When Sarah and Abraham are in Egypt, on their way to the Promised Land, Hagar, an Egyptian girl, becomes a handmaiden for Sarah." ??? I thought Abraham was from Ur, which is in southern Iraq. Is Egypt on the way to the promised land? (Ahhhhh, the first historical proof that men don't like to ask directions tongue.gif )

I finally figured out that Isaac didn't go anywhere. They were already in the (present) West Bank.

From this, http://www.nisbett.com/people/bp-abraham.htm , Abraham settled in Hebron (30km south of Jeruselem) where all these events took place.

Seems Turturis was right on the money about the handmadens:

"Jacob was born of Isaac in Hebron, twin with Esau, he was married with Leah and Raquel, and had 12 children, the 12 tribes of Israel: 6 with Leah, 2 with Rachel, 2 with the the servant of Leah, and 2 with the servant of Rachel."

12 tribes of Israel anyone?

(PS. FL2, Specimen, waterbender, Facsinating about matriarchy in Egypt, Is Ra El, Zoroator etc... I'll have to read up)
librarian
Posted by: ICE420 Jul 29 2006, 01:55 PM


I´m Atheist, but am interested to see peoples reactions and beliefs, especially not being biased to any side makes for a very interesting subject matter for debate and to see how people are going to deal with certain arguments



I think that Sanders Idea for this thread is a good one and one that will fuel a lot of attention.

popcorn.gif
librarian
Posted by: usediscernment Jul 29 2006, 02:25 PM


Just want to make sure we are on the same page.
What is a Christian?
Please consider what God’s Word, the Bible has to say about the name "Christian". People in our society as well as those around the world have many ideas of what the term Christian means and where it came from. Many from other countries consider the United States of America to be a "Christian" nation. Years ago that term may have fit our nation but not any longer, at best we could be called a "Post Christian" country. As we will see from the Bible a Christian or a Christian nation should act like the name it bears.
Many who live and were born in America consider themselves to be Christians. Some simply because they were born here, others because they are not Muslim, Hindu, or some other religion. Most that would consider themselves to be Christian do so because they have gone to church and believe in certain creeds, teachings, and doctrines. Lets take these thoughts and ideas to the Bible and see how well they hold up.
First, lets see where the term Christian came from. In the book of Acts 11:26 "So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch." This term Christian was not a complementary term. It was used in a derogatory way. But it identified those that were followers of Jesus Christ with Him. For you see the root word of Christian is Christ. The word Christian actually means "Christ like", a follower of Christ. Prior to this name which has become the most recognized name given to those that are followers of Jesus Christ, various other names were ascribed. Names such as "The Way", a "Sect", "Fools", and other unkind names.
Notice from the verse previously cited what Christians were known as prior to being called Christians, they were known as disciples. The word disciple comes from the Greek word "mathetes", which means: learner, follower, student, and disciple. Listen to the qualifications that Jesus gave for those that would be His disciples. In the Gospel of Mark 8:34-38 "When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, "Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it. For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels." Then in Matthew 10:37-39 Jesus tells us, "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it."
From these Scriptures, which is only a reflection of what Jesus has to say in many others verses, a Christian/disciple is one who: believes that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life; who chooses to surrender his or her life to Jesus and His will; who chooses to love Jesus more than anything and anyone else; who chooses to turn his or her back on all else that they may follow Jesus, learn of Him, and become like Him.
According to the Bible the word disciple and Christian should be synonymous. Unfortunately this is not the case in our society today. A Christian is someone that goes to church and believes (makes an intellectual accent) to some truths about Jesus, but doesn’t let it affect his or her life too much. They don’t become a "fanatic" about this Jesus stuff. A disciple on the other hand is considered to be quite a bit more serious. They take God at His Word, they seek to live their life by what the Bible says, they are considered to be a little radical even fanatical. God makes no such distinctions in His Word. It is a tragedy that the church has made two classes if Christianity. It should not be so.
How does a person become a Christian? It is not by certain rites, rituals, or baptisms. The Bible tells us that we are born into it. Listen to what Jesus said to a very religious man by the name of Nicodemus in John 3:3, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." In much the same way a person becomes a member of a human family (by physical birth), a person becomes a member of God’s family through spiritual birth. The Bible uses the term Born Again or Born of the Spirit.
This takes place when a person recognizes that they are a sinner (a breaker of God’s Law), acknowledges and confesses their sin to God, asks for forgiveness, repents of his sin, turns to Jesus Christ in faith for Salvation, accepting Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. It is all a matter of faith in the Wonderful Grace of God. As Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." God has done it all through His Son Jesus Christ. All you need do is turn to Him in faith. The moment a person does this he or she becomes a Christian.
For many this is far too simplistic. They say "There must be more, I must do something, I must do some kind of work, follow some rites or rituals. No! You can not do anything, only believe. I know this is a blow to man’s pride and ego. We like to think that we should have something to do with it. But we can’t, if we did we would for certain mess it up and it would cease to be grace. For you see grace is God’s unmerited favor toward mankind. If it could be earned, bought, or worked for it would no longer be grace. It would then be salvation based upon works and that is what "religion" is, man working his way to heaven. Heaven can never be obtained this way, because it says the sacrifice God gave in His Son is not enough. What a slap in the face of the Almighty God.
librarian
Posted by: BoneZ Jul 29 2006, 03:10 PM


tend to take a more scientific approach to religion. Here's a little sample of that research:

Clouds are the most common descriptions of the flying vehicles of the Elohiym. This is not surprising considering the probable size and density in daylight hours attributed to these objects. The word most often used in the Old Testament for cloud is `anan, pronounced aw-nawn'; a cloud (as covering the sky), i.e. the nimbus or thunder-cloud. The descriptions as a dark cloud, thick cloud, and dark water all allude to a solid object in the sky. Since there were no solid flying objects 2000 to 4000 years ago, and the only things close were thunder or storm clouds, this is a logical relation. For those that may cling to the belief that these are actually clouds, the flight characteristics, glowing at night, and other anomalous behavior, leaves such a narrow view very much in doubt. Perhaps the most important reference to clouds is that Jesus will return with an army in the clouds. If these clouds are not the fluffy kind, but very sophisticated flying craft, as the Bible records, then this would seem to have relevance to properly identifying that army. When Bible text says that Yhovah rides a swift cloud, are we to believe that he is literally sitting atop a cloud speeding through the sky? When the cloud turns to fire at night, are we to accept that it catches on fire, even though clouds can't burn? And when it stays in a stationary position for months, catching fire every night and burning out every morning, are we really talking about a cloud? No, this, or these, are not clouds. They are only named such because no one had ever heard about flying saucers, UFOs, spacecraft or star ships. They didn't even have balloons. The only big things in the sky during that time were clouds, so they called the objects clouds.

Exodus
34:5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord

Numbers
9:20 And so it was, when the cloud was a few days upon the tabernacle; according to the commandment of the Lord they abode in their tents, and according to the commandment of the Lord they journeyed. 21 And so it was, when the cloud abode from even unto the morning, and that the cloud was taken up in the morning, then they journeyed: whether it was by day or by night that the cloud was taken up, they journeyed.

10:11 And it came to pass on the twentieth day of the second month, in the second year, that the cloud was taken up from off the tabernacle of the testimony. 12 And the children of Israel took their journeys out of the wilderness of Sinai; and the cloud rested in the wilderness of Paran.

1 Kings
18:44 And it came to pass at the seventh time, that he said, Behold, there ariseth a little cloud out of the sea, like a man's hand. And he said, Go up, say unto Ahab, Prepare thy chariot, and get thee down that the rain stop thee not.

Psalms
104:3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:

Isaiah
19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the Lord rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

60:8 Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows

Matthew
17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

Revelation
11:11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

Acts
1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.


mount

1. The act or manner of mounting.
2. A means of conveyance, such as a horse, on which to ride.
3. an opportunity to ride a horse in a race.
4. An object to which another is affixed or on which another is placed for accessibility, display, or use

Exodus
19:12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, {that ye} go {not} up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:

(13) There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether {it be} beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.

QUESTION.....
If this 'mount' is just a dirt and stone mountain, then how do you tell people not to touch a mountain? Where does a mountain start and stop?

Exodus
24:12 And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tablets of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.
(13) And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up into the mount of God.
(18) And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into (not upon) the mount: and Moses was in (not on) the mount forty days and forty nights.

Exodus 32:19: And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, and he cast the tablets out of his hands, and break them beneath the mount.

The question is, "How do you 'break them beneath a mountain'? You might break something on a mountain. How about this as an explanation, "And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses' anger waxed hot, (He returned to the Spaceship. The door was shut.) and he cast the tablets out of his hands, and break them beneath the mount. (he threw them under the Spaceship breaking them beneath 'the mount'.)

Exodus 33:9: And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood {at} the door of the tabernacle, and {the Lord} talked with Moses.

You have seen rockets take off. They look like cloudy pillars ascending don't they? So, is this a possible explanation. "And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, (A Shuttle Craft) and stood {at} the door of the tabernacle, and {the Lord} talked with Moses."

Here's a great link to look at some of this research:

http://www.bibleufo.com/

cheers.gif
librarian
Posted by: chewysguitar Jul 29 2006, 03:23 PM


I seriously do not believe this thread will survive without intense clashes that are very anti-religion.

Is there any way you can make a rule about not making fun of religion? That will only help, but I still think there is no way this thread will survive without a bunch of criticizing back and forth.
librarian
Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 04:37 PM

ICE420, thanks for the words of encouragement rolleyes.gif I worry if this thread was a bad idea or not. Ironically, I worry more about it going off in a million directions at once more than fights breaking out. As rude as it might be, I'm gonna keep trying to steer it in the direction of a chronological history...

Usediscernment, thanks for the well written post - I read it twice. I'll try to remember to copy and paste it if and when we ever get to A.D.

Not sure where UFO's fit into all this, but hey, I suppose I can believe that as soon as I'd believe that Isaac's mother was a novagenarian.

QUOTE
Is there any way you can make a rule about not making fun of religion?

Sure. Consider it a rule - No making fun of religion. (Does my reference to my shock at learning that Sarah bore Isaac at 90 constitute an infraction I wonder?)

Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel, anyone?
Common, this is the start of the rich history of the Jews - in Egypt, of Moses, and in Canaan, of Soloman and David..
And what was going on in the Arab world all this time, or is that all irrelevant until Mohammed comes along much much later?
librarian
Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 04:58 PM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 29 2006 @ 04:37 PM)
Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel, anyone?
Common, this is the start of the rich history of the Jews - in Egypt, of Moses, and in Canaan, of Soloman and David..
And what was going on in the Arab world all this time, or is that all irrelevant until Mohammed comes along much much later?

As for Jacob and the 12 tribes of Israel, Jacob had 12 sons, one who was a prophet named Joseph. According to the Qu'ran, Joseph (Arabic: Yusuf) was the son of Jacob (Arabic: Yaqub) and the great-grandson of Abraham (Arabic: Ibrahim). He was thus from a lineage of prophets, and had eleven brothers. At an early age, Joseph displayed signs of prophethood: he had a dream in which he saw eleven stars, the sun, and the moon, prostrating to him. His father, also a prophet, interpreted the dream to mean that his brothers, represented by the eleven stars, and the sun and moon, his mother and father, would bow down to his dignified position one day. Jacob also added that God would give him gifts such as dream interpretation, wisdom, grace, and honour, as well as make him a prophet.

Joseph's brothers were all jealous of his talents and the fact that their father favoured him over his other sons. They unanimously plotted to get rid of him by throwing him into a well to die. They asked their father's permission to take him out to play, who granted them their request, not wanting to isolate Joseph from his brothers. The brothers proceed with their plan and dropped him in a well and left him to die. They brought back Joseph’s shirt with them to tell their father that wolves have eaten Joseph. Jacob became very saddened at the disappearance of his son and eventually became blind.

Joseph was rescued by a passing caravan and sold into slavery in Egypt, to a rich man termed al-Aziz. The Quran names Joseph as a very attractive man (see 12:31). While working for al-Aziz, he was constantly approached by his al-Aziz's wife (Imra'at al-Aziz), she being intent on seducing him. Joseph continuously rebuffed her attempts, until one day, she became frustrated to the point where she chased him and tore the back of Joseph's shirt. Al-Aziz then walked in on the scene and became angered at what he was witnessing. Imra'at al-Aziz then proceeded to accuse Joseph of initiating the chase. A servant who witnessed the scene aided Joseph by pointing out the obvious: his shirt was torn from the back, meaning that she (Imra'at al-Aziz) was perusing Joseph, not the other way around. Being constantly put in incidents to test his faith and honour, Joseph prayed that he would rather be imprisoned that be placed through the constant ordeals he was put through.

After being imprisoned for a few years, God gave him the ability to interpret dreams, a power in which he became popular amongst the prisoners using. However, two cooks were envious of his ability, so they decided to try to fool him by making up dreams and asking him to interpret them. Joseph of course interpreted these dreams, saying that the King of Egypt would catch the cooks after they had done something illegal, one would be forgiven and the other killed. The two cooks later on secretly laughed thinking they had fooled Joseph.

A day later, under order of the King of Egypt soldiers came to take the two cooks away, the King said one would be forgiven, the other killed. The forgiven cook would work near the King, as his slave. One day the King awakening from sleep told the forgiven cook about his very interesting dream, and about what it could mean. The forgiven cook was quick to say that there was a man in prison that could interpret dreams. The King immediately called Joseph, and told him that if he were to interpret this dream correctly he would become his advisor, freed from prison, however if he interpreted it incorrectly he would be killed.

Joseph went on to tell the King that his dream mean that Egypt would suffer a few years drought, and that the King should get ready for it. However, later on there would be very bountiful harvests, the same amount of years as the drought lasted. His interpretation turned out correct.

Joseph eventually went on to become a prominent advisor to the King of Egypt. Later on, he would once again run into his brothers whom he would forgive. He would also find his father (Jacob) only to find out that he has become blind after crying so much over the disappearance him (Joseph). However, Joseph would then fix his fathers blindness. Joseph would end up dying in Egypt. Tradition holds that when Moses (Arabic: Musa) left Egypt, he took Joseph's coffin with him so that he would be buried alongside his ancestors in Canaan.
librarian
Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 05:03 PM

Do you not see that God became angered by the Children of Israel (who had become Jews)? According to the Qur'an, he sent many prophets and messengers to guide them to the straight path, but they killed so many of them. He sent them Prophet Jesus, and even they planned a plot to kill Prophet Jesus, but God saved Prophet Jesus and lifted him to Heaven. God's curse was upon the Jews as a result.
librarian
Posted by: Daniels Jul 29 2006, 05:07 PM

QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 29 2006 @ 08:04 AM)
isnt it safe to say that any one ever called a prophet is really no more than just someone that said something that made sense to a lotta people so they deamed it as truth .. or the forecasting there of?

That is a very common supposition pr0mythius.

However, if we look a little closer at the concept we can see that it doesn't actually work.

For example, there have been many great philosopers who have had exceedingly wise insights into reality but few if any people have been inclined to lay their life on the line for the teachings of those philosophers.

With religion on the other hand, history demonstrates that wise, cleanly, calm, gentle people will willingly lay down their lives rather than give up their faith.

During the 1800s over 20,000 Baha'is were killed by the authorities in Persia who wanted to squash the religion. And history is replete with the early Muslims, Christians and Jews who valiantly laid down their lives for their faith.

Thus, holy Prophets of God inspire in Their followers a love and devotion that is supernatural.

---------------------------------------------------------------
An anecdote I heard about Abraham when He was a child is quite interesting.

His father was an idol maker in Ur. That was his profession. As a child, Abraham tried to get His father to stop making idols that others could worship, and suggested that His father should recognize that there was only one God.

His father refused to stop making the idols.

One day while the family were out, Abraham smashed all the idols except one.

When His father returned he was furious.

"Who did this?!" he demanded.

Abraham replied, "This idol rose up and smashed all the others".

"But that's impossible," exclaimed His father.

"Then why do you worship them?" asked Abraham.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry I don't have anything to add to the history bit Sanders. My knowledge of religious history is based mainly on what They stood for rather than an accurate chronological sequence.
librarian
Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 05:28 PM

GM10, thanks for the excellent 1st post thumbsup.gif thumbsup.gif thumbsup.gif
Pontormo did a whole series on Joseph
http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-bin/...rkNumber=NG6451
As for the second post, (God's curse was upon the Jews...), thumbdown.gif
Keep a lid on it, ok? I'll indulge you this - is that your own commentary on that, or is does that reflect what is written in the Qu'ran? Just tell me which, no need to elaborate. Thanks.
librarian
Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 29 2006, 05:28 PM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 29 2006 @ 05:07 PM)
---------------------------------------------------------------
An anecdote I heard about Abraham when He was a child is quite interesting.

His father was an idol maker in Ur. That was his profession. As a child, Abraham tried to get His father to stop making idols that others could worship, and suggested that His father should recognize that there was only one God.

His father refused to stop making the idols.

One day while the family were out, Abraham smashed all the idols except one.

When His father returned he was furious.

"Who did this?!" he demanded.

Abraham replied, "This idol rose up and smashed all the others".

"But that's impossible," exclaimed His father.

"Then why do you worship them?" asked Abraham.
---------------------------------------------------------------

That story is identcal with the one in the Qur'an. His father, however, still refused to stop his idol worshipping and even carried out an act of killing of Abraham and threw him into a big fire, but God protected Abraham from being burned. After that, Abraham left the idol worshippers.
librarian
Posted by: Sinewy Jul 29 2006, 06:44 PM

Sanders, where should I start? Are we past the Abraham/Ishmael/Isaac/Sarah/Hagar stage?

Or we still on the Sumerian/Materialist stage? Did we skip the Creationist, Adam/Eve stage?
librarian
Posted by: Sanders Jul 29 2006, 07:08 PM

QUOTE (Sinewy @ Jul 30 2006 @ 03:44 AM)
Sanders, where should I start? Are we past the Abraham/Ishmael/Isaac/Sarah/Hagar stage?

Or we still on the Sumerian/Materialist stage? Did we skip the Creationist, Adam/Eve stage? 

Dunno, I was hoping to get through this old testament stuff as quick as possible - to me the most pertinent stuff is the Jewish claim to Palestine, the rise of Islam, and the Crusades. But I thought everything from Abraham on should be covered at least briefly. This thread might die long before we get to the Caliphs or any of that but I'm enjoying it so far...

Add anything you think is material - and yeah, I skipped the Adam and Eve part - I want to talk about how the 3 religions are connected and have interreacted with each other over the milleniums. I was hoping to do it sequentially to keep some order to it, that's all. Funny though, once you start getting into it I can see how it might take forever.

Add what you want -
librarian
Posted by: usediscernment Jul 30 2006, 02:52 AM

Defying the God of the bible, and the God of the Kuran...

The biblical God is called Yahweh (or Jehovah) nearly 9,000 times. Yet Allah is not called by that name even once in the Koran. Why not, if Allah is the same God? God is also referred to as Elohim more than 2,500 times in the Bible, but again that word never appears for Allah in the Koran. Why? The God of the Bible is called "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob/Israel" (Jacob's name was changed by God to Israel later in life, so he is referred to by either name). He is the father of the Jews. The God of the Bible revealed himself to Moses at the burning bush by this name ("God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob/Israel") and told Moses, "this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations" (Ex 3:1-16). If Allah is the God of the Bible, why is he never called by these names?

The God of the Bible tells us again and again that He is the God of the Jews. Many times He is called "the God of Israel." Yet there is such hatred for Israel among Muslims! The Koran talks about Abraham and Ishmael, even claims they built the Ka'aba, but gives Isaac no prominence. The Bible mentions Isaac favorably and prominently more than 150 times. God very clearly says that His covenant is with Isaac, not with Ishmael (Gn 17:19-21), from whom the Arabs claim they are descended.

The God of the Bible calls the Jews His chosen people. He loves them and gave the land of Israel to them as an heritage forever, as hundreds of verses in the Bible declare. Islam denies this basic biblical truth. The Jews are certainly not Allah's chosen people! How can Allah be the God of the Bible, yet not choose the Jews?

In the Koran, as you must know, Allah commands Muslims, "Take not the Jews and Christians as friends" (Surah 5:51, Al Hil-ali, v. 54, Jusuf ali), so Allah is not the God of the Christians either. In the hadith, Muhammad himself said, "The last hour will not come before the Muslims fight the Jews, and the Muslims kill them" (Mishkat al Masabih Sh. M. Ashraf, 1990, pp. 147, 721, 810-11, 1130, etc.). Islam's god hates the Jews; the God of the Bible loves them as His chosen people! Allah is very clearly not Jehovah, Elohim, the God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, the God of the Bible!

The God of the Bible chose Jerusalem as His holy city. Forty times He calls Jerusalem "the city of David" and repeatedly He promises that the Messiah will be descended from David and will rule on David's throne in Jerusalem over the whole world (2 Chr 6:6; 33:7; 2 Sm 7:16; Ps 89:3-29, etc.). Never does the Bible (or the God of the Bible) mention Mecca or Medina, but Jerusalem is mentioned more than 800 times. Yet Allah never mentions Jerusalem. How can this be if Allah is the God of the Bible? And how can the Muslims today claim Jerusalem as a holy city of Islam, when it isn't even mentioned in the Koran? That recent claim comes from those who want to take that city from the Jews.

That Allah has no son is further proof that He is not the God of the Bible, who definitely has a Son, as both the Old and New Testaments declare. Psalms 2 says, "Kiss the Son." Referring to the God of the Bible, Solomon says, "What is his son's name...?" (Prv 30:4). The angel Gabriel, whom Islam claims to honor, told the virgin Mary (Islam accepts the virgin birth of Jesus), "And, behold, thou shalt...bring forth a son, and shalt call his name jesus. He shall be...called the Son of the Highest ...the Son of God...and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David..." (Lk 1:31-35). That throne is in Jerusalem, not in Mecca.

Muslims insist that the name "Allah" must be used in every language; it cannot be translated Dios in Spanish, Dieu in French, or God in English. Muslims thus treat "Allah" not as a generic word for God, but as the name of a particular god. In fact, Allah was the god of the Kuraish tribe centuries before Muhammad was born. You deny that he was the chief god in the Ka'aba, but you admit there were for centuries 360 idols in the Ka'aba and one of these was called Allah. What is Allah doing in a temple among 360 idols if he is the God of the Bible, who forbids idolatry? Why does Islam keep this idol temple, and why must Muslims to this day make a pilgrimage there?

That Allah was the chief idol in the Ka'aba is documented history. Let me quote one of the greatest historians:

The desert Arab...feared and worshiped incalculable deities in stars and moons. ...Now and then he offered human sacrifice; and here and there he worshiped sacred stones. The center of this stone worship was Mecca [with] the Ka'aba and its sacred Black Stone...in its southeast corner, five feet from the ground, just right for kissing....

Within the Ka'aba, in pre-Moslem days, were several idols representing gods. One was called Allah...three others were Allah's daughtersal-Uzza, al-Lat, and Manah. We may judge the antiquity of this Arab pantheon from the mention of Al-il-Lat (Al-Lat) by Herodotus [fifth-century b.c. Greek historian] as a major Arabian deity. The Quraish [Muhammad's tribe controlling Mecca] paved the way for monotheism by worshiping Allah as chief god; He was presented to the Meccans as the Lord of their soil, to Whom they must pay a tithe of their crops and the first-born of their herds. The Quraish, as alleged descendants of Abraham and Ishmael, appointed the priests and guardians of the shrine and managed its revenues (Will Durant, "The Story of Civilization," IV: 160-61).


The Ka'aba still stands, without its idols, but with the Black Stone. The pilgrimage to the Ka'aba, to...kiss the sacred stone, to run between Safa and Marwa, and to climb Mount Arafa, was practiced by pious pagan Arabs for centuries before Muhammad. Why did your prophet keep, as part of Islam, these pagan rituals?

You say "Islam is the religion of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus...." Do you think Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, et al. journeyed to the idol temple, the Ka'aba, and kissed its Black Stone? Impossible! Not one follower of the God of the Bible would ever have gone near the Ka'aba, because the God of the Bible forbids any association with idols; and you admit (as history tells us) that the Ka'aba was filled with idols before Muhammad destroyed them all. In history and the Bible, you will find no mention of Islam or any religion like it. How could you have Islam without the Koran and Muhammad?

The only people who journeyed to the Ka'aba and kissed the Black Stone were pagan Arabs who worshiped one or more of the idols within and around it. Muhammad started a new religion called Islam to which Arabs, Persians, Egyptians, Turks and everyone else in the region had to convert at the point of the sword. They became Muslims, and there is no way you can say that Islam was the original religion of that or any other region.

I've been asked to explain, "The God of the Bible is love, an impossibility for Allah." If Allah is a single being, as Muslims insist, then he cannot be love in and of himself, because he had no one to love until he created others; but the God of the Bible is love in and of Himself because He is three Persons but One God. Father, Son and Holy Spirit loved and communed with one another before men or angels were created.

While the Jews know that Allah is not Jehovah, they try to say (as Muslims do for Allah) that Jehovah is a single being. If so, then why does the Bible refer to Him more than 2,500 times with the plural Elohim (gods)? Interestingly, however, always with the plural noun there is a singular verb. One cannot escape the plurality combined with singularity repeatedly used.

The famous shema (Dt 6:4), the most fundamental saying about God for a Jew, declares, "Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our Elohim is one Jehovah." Far from declaring that the God of the Bible is a singular being, the Hebrew word translated "one" is echad, which means a unity of several becoming one, as when God said the man and woman became "one [echad] flesh" (Gn 2:24); when many soldiers became "one [echad] troop" (2 Sm 2:25) or when two sticks became "one [echad] stick" (Ezk 37:17) etc.

The Bible teaches that God's very essence is love and says, "God is love" (1 Jn 4:8). This is not true of Allah. The Bible repeatedly speaks of God's love for man and the love we must have for Him. But love is scarcely mentioned in the Koran. Not once is "love" listed in the index of the popular Marmaduke Pickthall translation of the Koran. Of Allah's 99 attributes, love is not one. The Koran does say that Allah loves "the beneficent" (Surah 2:195), "the stedfast [and] those whose deeds are good" (Surah 3:146-48), and "those who battle for his cause" (Surah 61:4). But never does it say he loves all mankind, much less sinners; but the God of the Bible loves sinners, even those who hate Him. Allah is said to be merciful, but he does not show mercy to those who need it. The God of the Bible, however, is merciful to all, ready to forgive confessed sin.

The first of the Ten Commandments is that we are to love the God of the Bible with our whole heart; but never does the Koran say a Muslim is to love Allah. You cannot love Allah, because he is unknowable. The God of the Bible can be known and repeatedly calls upon men to know Him; but the Koran says no one can know Allah because he is too great. In spite of being infinite, without beginning and end, and the Creator of the universe, the biblical God reveals himself so that men can know Him. Jesus himself said, "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent" (Jn 17:3). Those who don't know the God of the Bible are lost eternally. No one knows Allah.

The Bible is filled with prophecies of the coming of Messiah Jesus, but there is not one such prophecy in the Koran for Jesus or Muhammad. In fact, the Koran was written after Muhammad came, so it could not prophesy his coming, but the Old Testament prophesied the coming of Jesus centuries and even thousands of years beforehand. The Jewish prophets in the Old Testament said the Messiah would be crucified and rise from the dead the third day. Jesus came at exactly the time prophesied and died for the sins of the world, as the Bible says over and over. But the Koran contradicts this and says He didn't die on the cross at all, much less for our sins. The Bible says that the penalty for sin must be paid and that God himself had to come as a man to die for our sins. Allah did not do that.

How does Allah save sinners? It would be unjust to forgive the guilty without the penalty being paid. Where does Allah explain the penalty? When and by whom was that penalty paid? If Allah forgives, how does he forgive? Allah simply refuses to forgive or forgives whom he will, but there is no consistent or just basis for either. No Muslim can be sure Allah will forgive him. As a Christian I know for certain that I have been forgiven all my sins and that I have eternal life as a free gift from God through the death and resurrection of Christ and that I will be in heaven, not by my good works, but by Christ paying the penalty for my sins. Allah is merciful to those who do good. The Bible says that none do good, all have sinned, and that God saves sinners if they believe in the Christ who died for them.

You ask where Allah says in the Koran, "Let us make man in our image." I don't read Arabic so can't find that exact place but I was told by an Arabic scholar that in the Arabic that is what it says. However, the God of the Bible said, "Let us make man in our image." If Allah is the same God, why didn't he say that?
librarian
Posted by: usediscernment Jul 30 2006, 03:02 AM

AAAHH... a question about "PALESTINE"

This small region was also referred to as Philistia (Ps 60:8; 87:4, 108:9). It was clearly not “synonymous with the land of Canaan” and did not indicate “the whole region, including both Judaea and Samaria.” On the contrary, it referred specifically to the land of the Pelishtee, or Philistines, in the same location but a bit larger than the Gaza Strip of today, named after the Philis-tine city of Gaza. Their other cities were Ashdod, Gath (home of Goliath), Gerar and Ekron. They were not Semitic people, but invaded Canaan by sea from across the Mediterranean and occupied that particular area before the Israelites arrived.

Thus even the Phil-istines were not the “original inhabitants of the land,” but displaced others just as they were eventually displaced by Israel. Nor can the Arabs living there today (who are Semites) claim any ethnic, linguistic or historical relationship to the Philistines or on any other basis justify calling themselves Palestinians.

Exodus 15:14,15 makes it clear that Palestina is not “synonymous with the land of Canaan.” On the contrary, “the inhabitants of Palestina” are distinguished from “all the inhabitants of Canaan.” It is also clear that Isaiah 14:29, 31 do not refer to the land of Israel from the fact that the passage promises blessing to Israel and pronounces destruction upon Palestina (along with Babylon, Assyria, Moab, et al.). To “kill thy root... [and] slay thy remnant” (v. 30) foretells the end of Palestina (i.e., the Philistines and their descendants). This is in clear contrast to “the Lord hath founded Zion [Israel]” (v. 32), and the many promises of Israel’s everlasting possession of that land.

The “whole region” of the promised land is called “the land of Israel” 31 times in Scripture. Scores of other times “Israel” means both the people and the land. It is an insult to God and to His people to whom He gave this land to call Israel after her chief enemies, the Philistines!

Sadly, most Bibles promote this fraud. Maps in the back of the Scofield reference Bible show “Palestine under the Maccabees” and “Palestine in the time of Christ.” In fact, the land God gave to His chosen people was known only as Israel until A.D. 135, when the Romans angrily renamed it Palestine after the Philistines to spite the Jews (see TBC reprints Sep ’00). Let us not honor Israel’s enemies by calling the promised land of Israel, which God says is His land (Lv 25:23), by the pagan name “Palestine”! And let us oppose the fraudulent claims of those today who illegally call themselves Palestinians.
librarian
Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 03:40 AM

Okay, let me first say that it is false that Muslims claim that "Allah" cannot be translated into different languages. Some are hesistant to do such a thing like call "Allah" "God" because the name God can be pluralized or have a gender by adding an "s" or "dess", whereas the name "Allah" cannot. Because of this, they believe that the name "Allah" seems to be the proper name for God. However, most Muslims believe you can say "God." Just that "Allah" seems to be better to use. The God in the Bible calls Himself "Yahweh," "Jehovah," and "Elohim" in the Bible because it is revealed in Hebrew. To say that Muslims worship a different "God" because they say "Allah" is just as illogical as saying that French people worship another God because they use the word "Dieu", that Spanish-speaking people worship a different God because they say "Dios" or that the Hebrews worshipped a different God because they sometimes call Him "Yahweh". Certainly, reasoning like this is quite ridiculous! It should also be mentioned, that claiming that any one language uses the only the correct word for God is tantamount to denying the universality of God's message to mankind, which was to all nations, tribes and people through various prophets who spoke different languages. be aware of the fact that some Christian missionary organizations print English literature intended to teach Christians about Islam which say such things as: "Allah is the god of the Muslims" and that "Muhammad came to get people to believe in the god Allah" - implying that "Allah" is some sort of false "god". However, when these same organizations print literature in the Arabic language, hoping to lead Arabic-speaking Muslims "to Christ", they use the word "Allah" for God. It seems that if they were on the side of truth, they would not have to resort to such inconsistencies. And on an even more ridiculous note . . . there are also missionary organizations that exceed this in ignorance (or deceit) by writing books that call on Muslims to give up their belief in "Allah", and instead worship the "Lord" Jesus, "the Son of God". Besides making it abundantly clear that they are outside the community of Pure Monotheism, the people who write such material don't even realize that if they wrote such a pamphlet in Arabic, it would be self-contradictory. This is because in an Arabic Bible Jesus is the "Son of Allah"! If an Arabic-speaking person gave up the worship of "Allah", they would have no God to worship, since "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for God! The Hebrew speaking ones of course called Him "Yahweh" or "Jehovah", which means "The LORD" or "GOD". "Yahweh" is a Hebrew-language word. "Allah" is both Arabic and Aramaic. And yes, God mentions Himself as "Yahweh" in the Qur'an. "Yahweh" is mentioned in the Qur'an when God says He is the Lord. "Yahweh" means Lord. "Jehovah" means God. So when He says Al- Rabb, it means "Lord" in Arabic, which is "Yahweh" or "Jehovah" in Hebrew. When He says Allah, it means "God" in Arabic, which is "Elohim" in Hebrew. You are using false language theories. So yes He does use these names to describe Himself, but only in a different language. Another false thing you say about the Koran is that God favors Ishmael over Isaac and that no prominence is given to Isaac. God says in the Koran to not make any differentiate between any of His prophets and messengers. And besides, Isaac's life is mentioned more in the Koran than Ishmael. Ishmael was the father of the Arabs and Isaac is the father of the Israelis. God made prophets out of Isaac's children. Jacob was his son and was a prophet. Joseph was a prophet and was his grandson. God sent Moses and Jesus to the Children of Israel (who were Jews). He sent prophets and messengers to the Jews, but they slain so many. So God became angry with them and His curse was upon them. That is why before 1948, so many Jews were scattered around the world. His curse was upon them. He gave them too many chances, and once they plotted to kill Jesus, He saved Prophet Jesus and lifted him to Heaven. That was their last strike. So God sent a prophet to the Arabs. He sent Muhammad as His last messenger and prophet. Through this, the Arabs were saved and Muhammad sent a universal message. God says in the Koran that He did indeed make a covenant with Abraham, but that they broke it. The Jews became wrong doers. "The Ka'aba still stands, without its idols, but with the Black Stone. The pilgrimage to the Ka'aba, to...kiss the sacred stone, to run between Safa and Marwa, and to climb Mount Arafa, was practiced by pious pagan Arabs for centuries before Muhammad. Why did your prophet keep, as part of Islam, these pagan rituals?" The Black Stone is not to be kissed. Don't judge a car by its driver. Those rituals were not practiced by Pagan Arabs. Muhammad chased out all of the idol worshippers and destroyed all 360 idols. As for Allah, that is false that He was an idol. He was believed to be the Supreme God that no one can see, but they sinned through associating partners with Him. That is why God sent Muhammad to them and the world. No doubt that the Children of Israel were God's chosen people, but they have deceived Him, and for that, His curse was upon the Jews. That is why there will be a war between Muslims and Jews. As for the verses you throw at me from the Bible, we don't believe in many of them because we believe they have been perverted. They were right originally, but not anymore. Like how the Bible mentions that Jesus is the son of God, that is wrong. It never originally stated that, but the Jews and Christians changed it. That is why God sent the Qur'an, the protected revelation. It has never been perverted. It holds no inconsistencies, unlike the Bible. The Bible holds many self contradictions and yet further proves that it cannot be the Word of God today. http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim...radictions.html Also,
to refute that God wants us to hate Christians and Muslims, read this verse "5:5 This day are (all) good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who received the Scripture before you (lawful for you) when ye give them their marriage portions and live with them in honour, not in fornication, nor taking them as secret concubines. Whoso denieth the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter." You need to know the timing of when a verse came. God also mentions many times in the Koran of how He is pleased by many pious Jews and Christians. He does not want us to fight you. Also explain how Arab Christians and Arab Jews use "Allah" to say "God."

"How does Allah save sinners? It would be unjust to forgive the guilty without the penalty being paid. Where does Allah explain the penalty? When and by whom was that penalty paid? If Allah forgives, how does he forgive? Allah simply refuses to forgive or forgives whom he will, but there is no consistent or just basis for either. No Muslim can be sure Allah will forgive him. As a Christian I know for certain that I have been forgiven all my sins and that I have eternal life as a free gift from God through the death and resurrection of Christ and that I will be in heaven, not by my good works, but by Christ paying the penalty for my sins. Allah is merciful to those who do good. The Bible says that none do good, all have sinned, and that God saves sinners if they believe in the Christ who died for them.

You ask where Allah says in the Koran, "Let us make man in our image." I don't read Arabic so can't find that exact place but I was told by an Arabic scholar that in the Arabic that is what it says. However, the God of the Bible said, "Let us make man in our image." If Allah is the same God, why didn't he say that?"

Okay, here goes, God does save sinners when they repent. It would not be unjust to forgive the guilty if they feel guilty and repent. God explains the penalty as Hell for sinners, except for those whom He forgives. It is true, no Muslim can be sure that God will forgive him because only God knows. God is loving in the Koran. He is "The Merciful" and sent many prophets and messengers as a mercy for mankind. No one can be sure that there sins can be forgiven, except God but you are only to repent once, never do the sin again, and forget you ever did it. If you don't believe you will ever be forgiven, then you have taken the attribute of "The Merciful" and the "The Oft Forgiving" out of God. You sin through doing that. God didn't say that "Let Us make man in Our image" because that is idolatry to believe that you look like God. No one knows what God truly looks like. It is idolatry to draw a picture of Him.

"The Bible teaches that God's very essence is love and says, "God is love" (1 Jn 4:8). This is not true of Allah. The Bible repeatedly speaks of God's love for man and the love we must have for Him. But love is scarcely mentioned in the Koran. Not once is "love" listed in the index of the popular Marmaduke Pickthall translation of the Koran. Of Allah's 99 attributes, love is not one. "

Another lie. Al-Wadud (ÇáæÏæÏ) The Loving, the Kind One.
librarian
Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 03:50 AM

Hey, usediscernment, you need to understand that we believe in the same One God, but we have different concepts about Him. Just quit saying that "Allah" is a separate deity, for that is false. It is not true that "Allah" is supposed to be used in every language. That is false. Many Muslims do that because they are ignorant, but again, don't judge a car by its driver. And I have some questions about how you believe in God (notice how I didn't say your God). In the Bible, you believe that God got drunk. Explain this: Then the Lord awoke as from sleep, as a man wakes from the stupor of wine. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 78:65)" Come on now, this is really ludicrous! If GOD gets drunk and/or goes to sleep, then what kind of a god is He?! No offense to any Jew or Christian, but please answer this. "Then the Lord AWOKE......" is pretty much clear and self explanatory! He may not "sleep" like we do, but he certainly appears to have been away or not knowing or not controlling of His Creation at that time or moment! Now, you might say that this is only symbolic and I shouldn't take it literally from the Bible. Well first of all, isn't GOD Almighty supposed to be formal and "professional" as we say it today, with us? If you want to consider the entire Bible as the perfect book of GOD Almighty, then you must take everything in it formally. The Bible also claims that the earth is set firm on pillars and it never moves. How can I take this claim symbolically and not seriously when we know today that the earth is an egg-shaped sphere, and doesn't stand on any pillars, and it certainly does move?! By the way, the Noble Quran does claim that the earth is "egg-shaped", and it does swim in space along with the other planets and stars. It also claimed that the space is "expanding" as it was scientifically proven to be true. Science is on the Koran's side, and not the Bible's so people who are really knowlegeable in science will realize that the Koran is more accurate in science and is more consistent. The Bible contains numerous ridiculous contradictions. For instance:

"And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen. (From the KJV Bible, 1 Kings 4:26)"

"And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem. (From the KJV Bible, 2 Chronicles 9:25)"

Explain that.
Now any normal reader would raise this simple question: How many stalls of horses did King Solomon have?

Can the Bible give a definite answer to this? No!

It's not the number or the piece of information that is important here. No body really cares about how many stalls of horses Solomon had. But the serious issue here is that how on earth can we trust that either the book of Kings or Chronicles were truly inspired by GOD Almighty?!
Anyway, to further prove that the above Psalm 78:65 verse from the bible is a bunch of garbage, it is important to know that neither of the bible's books and gospels are really valid. The authors of the books and gospels of the bible are unknown. Let's see the proof for ourselves:

The books of Psalm:

The following quotes were taken from the article "Just who were the real authors of the Bible?" Today's Books and Gospels' authors of the Bible are UNKNOWN. See the comments from the NIV Bible itself! Just why in the world should I believe in today's Bible?

The Bibliography of the NIV Bible that I used is listed in the above link.

"Regarding authorship, opinions are even more divided. The notations themselves are ambiguous since the Hebrew phraseology used, meaning in general "belonging to", an also be taken in the sense of "concerning" or "for the use of" or "dedicated to". The name may refer to the title of a collection of Psalms that had been gathered under a certain name. (From the NIV Bible Commentary, page 773)"

"The Psalms consist of one hundred fifty poems of Israel written at different times by different authors, though mainly by David, around 1000 B.C.
..........
Because of the vast range of human feelings expressed in the Psalms, this book remains one of the best loved and most used books of the Bible. (From the King James Version Bible Commentary, page 801)"

As we clearly see above from the NIV and KJV Bibles' commentaries, this book can not be considered as the True Words of GOD Almighty, because it was written by many unknown authors! There is no proof that these authors were True Messengers of GOD Almighty. Another corruption and man-made alterations had invaded the Bible and corrupted it.

This corrupted book claims that the Earth is flat and never moves:

"He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved. (From the NIV Bible, Psalm 104:5)"

Since when the Earth is flat and can never move?! We all know that the Earth and the other planets rotate and move in space around the Sun.

For those Jews and Christians who would like to see where in the Noble Quran does Allah Almighty say that the planets in space rotate and move, read the following Noble Verse:

"It is He who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its orbit with its own motion. (The Noble Quran, 21:33)"


Explain all of that. Enough of your false claims of "Allah" and "God" being different gods. Don't try to mess with the Koran, when you should look at the Bible first. I still have much more to say about the Bible, but I'll wait for you to answer these unanswerable questions.
librarian
Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 04:41 AM

To Usediscernment,

Thanks for the posts, but we don't need this. Do you realise what you are saying? Think about it for a second. You are saying Muslims don't worship the same God because they call him(/her?) by a different name. If anything, the Bible is more confused about who/what he is because they never settle on a single name ! But that's not the point. In actuality, Muslims worship the same God, Islam believes in many of the same things and events and prophets as Christians and Jews because the religions all grew from the SAME SOURCE

The Japanese go to a shrine, clap their hands 3 times throw money into a pit, pray to a god of prosperity and hope that their business will do well. They're PAGANS by any definition. Do you feel anger toward them for that?

I live in Japan, I can assure you they are very nice, interesting people. Should we bomb Tokyo once more because they are all 'infidels'? No, that's ridiculous. Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...??? Wait till we get to the Crusades, when the Pope told Christians all over Europe to go to the Holy Land and kill as many Muslim infidels as they can - that they would be forgiven their sins and go to heaven if they killed Muslims (!!!???!!!). It is pure insanity. The Jihad that resulted is still in effect today, a thousand years later, and the ripple effect of that state-religious sponsored propoganda is still alive in the hearts of Christians ... Bush and Co. are trying (fairly successfully I might add) to revive it. When George Bush Sr. bombed Baghdad in 1990 the Arab headlines proclaimed 'Crusade!!!'. They were probably right, this is probably just another instance of Christians going to the Holy Land to kill infidels. The invaders aren't representing Christianity per-se, they are representing "America", and it wasn't enough for the Pope to make a speech, they needed 9/11 and a lot of malarky about WMD to convice them it was the right thing to do, but there are almost as many similarities between the two as there are between the Bible and the Koran, if you get my drift.

Anyway, this is NOT a thread about who worships the true God, if you want to post, get with the program. Here we are abolutely TOLERANT about what other people believe, it is the only road to peace. If you don't GET it, read the first post one more time. If you don't understand what tolerant means, look it up in the dictionary, you're a grown up. OK? Got it?

Great Muslim gets a reprieve, he was rebutting.

With all due respect and good will, THIS STOPS NOW.

Thanks

I'm cool with GM10's account of Joseph being sold into slavery - any problems? How does it get from there to Moses taking the Jews out of Egypt? Did Joseph just represent one of the 12 tribes? Were all of Moses' jews descendants of Joseph?
librarian
Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 04:51 AM


QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)
Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...???


I agree with everything that you are saying, but we didn't get the name wrong. Even Arab Christians and Arab Jews say "Allah". English Muslims say "God." It's only the matter of which language you speak.
librarian
Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 05:01 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 30 2006 @ 01:51 PM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)

Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...??? 

I agree with everything that you are saying, but we didn't get the name wrong. Even Arab Christians and Arab Jews say "Allah". English Muslims say "God." It's only the matter of which language you speak.


doh1.gif

From the CHRISTIAN point of view ! I know, I know, I meant that "from the Christian point of view", Arabs 'got the name wrong'. Don't take it seriously - I was making a point... that's not what I meant.
librarian
Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 05:11 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)
I'm cool with GM10's account of Joseph being sold into slavery - any problems? How it get from there to Moses taking the Jews out of Egypt?  Did Joseph just represent one of the 12 tribes?  Were all of Moses' jews descendants of Joseph? 

About going from the Joseph story to Moses taking the Israelis out of Egypt, it was just a fun fact thrown in at the end. It really had no significance to the story of Joseph. Yes, Joseph represents one of the 12 tribes. I'm not sure if all of Moses Israeli descendants were of Joseph. As for why I say Israelis instead of Jews is because God calls them the Children of Israel in the Qur'an. Those children of Israel, however, have become Jews and they are the Jews of today. God mentions how He chose the Children of Israel many times in the Qur'an and how they deceived Him and broke the covenant which He made with Abraham. Which prophet would you like to talk about next? And just for the record, we believe that all prophets and messengers of God were Muslims. We believe that to be a Muslim before the descension of the Qur'an and the coming of the final prophet and messenger, Muhammad, you had to believe in One God, the revelations (or holy books sent by God to His messengers), in angels of God, prophets and messengers of God, the afterlife (including Heaven, Hell, Judgement Day and Day of Resurrection, and etc.), and predestination. So if you lived during the time of Moses, to be a Muslim, you would have had to believe in God, believed in the previous prophets and messengers (including Adam, Noah, Abraham, and etc.), you would also have to believe that Moses was a prophet and messenger of God, and you would have to believe in and follow the Torah. In Jesus's time, you would have had to believe in the previous prophets and messengers, including Jesus, believe in God, of course, and believe in the Torah, believe in the Psalms, and believe in and follow the Gospel. The term Jews and Christians don't apply to prophets and messengers of God in Islam. We don't believe that Islam was created and founded by Muhammad. We believe it has always existed and to have been a Muslim you would have had to do what is mentioned above.
librarian
Posted by: GreatMuslim10 Jul 30 2006, 05:13 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 05:01 AM)
QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 30 2006 @ 01:51 PM)
QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)
Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...??? 

I agree with everything that you are saying, but we didn't get the name wrong. Even Arab Christians and Arab Jews say "Allah". English Muslims say "God." It's only the matter of which language you speak. 

doh1.gif

From the CHRISTIAN point of view ! I know, I know, I meant that "from the Christian point of view", Arabs 'got the name wrong'. Don't take it seriously - I was making a point... that's not what I meant.

Wait, I don't get it. Do Christians believe we got the name wrong? I'm not upset, I'm just really curious.
librarian
Posted by: Sanders Jul 30 2006, 06:06 AM

QUOTE (GreatMuslim10 @ Jul 30 2006 @ 02:13 PM)
Do Christians believe we got the name wrong?  I'm not upset, I'm just really curious.

I have no idea - I doubt it. I was just addressing what usediscernment was saying, speaking from that viewpoint to show the absurdity of it. let's just let it go...?

I've been scratching my head, trying to figure out why Joseph's name isn't on the maps of the 12 tribes, even though he's one of the 12 male children

I found this that explains it
http://goodnewschristianministry.org/twelvetribes.htm
librarian
Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 06:23 AM

QUOTE (Sanders @ Jul 30 2006 @ 04:41 AM)
In actuallity, Muslims worship the same God, Islam believes in many of the same things and events and prophets as Christians and Jews because the religions all grew from the SAME SOURCE

Should we kill Muslims because they ALMOST believe the same stuff as us, but there are discrepancies and they got the name wrong - they had the timerity write it in Arabic ...??? 

First off, Sanders, since you are the referee here, userdiscernment's demonizing Islam is done with hateful intent. As well, he is instigating once again with sheer ignorance for the purpose of polarization in this forum. I don't want to bring polemics into this debate, but if you allow me, I would counter every argument he has against Islam. His arguments are the same ordure that you can find in the anti-islam sites on the net. He should have given credit where it was given.

Next: I quoted you above and edited the rest from your post. Muslims believe in the same creator and God as the Jews and Christians, but the Christian would counter argue and disagree. They claim that the Muslim's God is different because "He" is not anthropomorphic as is the Christian God and doesn't have a "Son". Hence, there can be an apparent difference and perception of 2 different gods.
librarian
Posted by: pr0mythiuJul 30 2006, 06:35 AM

QUOTE (Daniels @ Jul 29 2006 @ 05:07 PM)
QUOTE (pr0mythius @ Jul 29 2006 @ 08:04 AM)

isnt it safe to say that any one ever called a prophet is really no more than just someone that said something that made sense to a lotta people so they deamed it as truth .. or the forecasting there of?



That is a very common supposition pr0mythius.

However, if we look a little closer at the concept we can see that it doesn't actually work.

For example, there have been many great philosopers who have had exceedingly wise insights into reality but few if any people have been inclined to lay their life on the line for the teachings of those philosophers.

With religion on the other hand, history demonstrates that wise, cleanly, calm, gentle people will willingly lay down their lives rather than give up their faith.

During the 1800s over 20,000 Baha'is were killed by the authorities in Persia who wanted to squash the religion. And history is replete with the early Muslims, Christians and Jews who valiantly laid down their lives for their faith.

Thus, holy Prophets of God inspire in Their followers a love and devotion that is supernatural.

---------------------------------------------------------------
An anecdote I heard about Abraham when He was a child is quite interesting.

His father was an idol maker in Ur. That was his profession. As a child, Abraham tried to get His father to stop making idols that others could worship, and suggested that His father should recognize that there was only one God.

His father refused to stop making the idols.

One day while the family were out, Abraham smashed all the idols except one.

When His father returned he was furious.

"Who did this?!" he demanded.

Abraham replied, "This idol rose up and smashed all the others".

"But that's impossible," exclaimed His father.

"Then why do you worship them?" asked Abraham.
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Sorry I don't have anything to add to the history bit Sanders. My knowledge of religious history is based mainly on what They stood for rather than an accurate chronological sequence.

ok i've fallen behind on this thread ... but basically what you're saying .. is that the diff between and philosopher and a prophet .. is that many people will die for what a prophet has said?

hmmmm ... in that case ... prophets are evil. perhaps they didnt want people to kill because of what they prophecied ... but .. yea .. thats kinda messed up ... anyone that would kill someone just because they dont agree with what some other person said ... is off thier freaking rocker.

once again i must say that the concept of a holy war is the biggest load of crap i've ever heard. dont mean to sound quite so blunt ...... well ... then again ... yea i do. i would say i have a way better than average concept of "god" ... and to think that god would sign off on the destruction of anyone is f*@king rediculous.

least thats what i think.
librarian
Posted by: Sinewy Jul 30 2006, 06:40 AM

QUOTE
once again i must say that the concept of a holy war is the biggest load of crap i've ever heard.


The Holy War is a myth propagated for those that hate religion. Take a look at Islam for example.

In Islam there is no such thing as HOLY WAR. It is the common myth to translate Jihad as a Holy War. Show me in the Qur'an where Jihad means and translates to Holy War.
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