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Omega892R09
I am not about to hypothesise but others here may be able to fill in any blanks:

Plane crash in NY state kills 49 - BBC
DoYouEverWonder
The wish of a 9/11 widow
Posted 12/5/04

A member of the Family Steering Committee for the 9/11 commission, Beverly Eckert, 53, wants "something constructive" to come from the death of her husband, Sean Rooney, in the World Trade Center. After urging Congress to form an investigative commission, Eckert (pictured at a ground zero vigil last week) is now championing intelligence reform legislation that stalled in the House after key Republicans wanted more provisions: no driver's licenses for illegal immigrants, to name one.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles...3eckert.peo.htm


Why is it only the good ones meet untimely deaths?
Ricochet
The lawsuit was not about money, it was for accountability.
JFK
ATC Audio - http://event.liveatc.net/kbuf/KBUF-Feb-13-2009-0300Z.mp3

Courtesy of - http://www.liveatc.net/
jo56
One of Buffalo crash victims met with Obama earlier (Last week)
http://www.nbc13.com/vtm/news/local/articl..._earlier/59383/


QUOTE
Associated Press
Published: February 13, 2009

WASHINGTON (AP) - President Barack Obama says the deadly plane crash in upstate New York reminds the nation of the fragility of life and the value of each day.

Speaking at an event at the White House, Obama said Friday that his prayers are with families and friends who lost loved ones. A Continental commuter plane crashed into a house in suburban Buffalo on Thursday night, killing all 49 people aboard and a person in the home.

One of the victims was Beverly Eckert, a Sept. 11 widow. She was just at the White House last week with Obama as part of a meeting he had with relatives of those killed in the 2001 attacks and the bombing of the USS Cole.

Obama said Eckert was an inspiration to him and he hopes her family finds comfort in the days ahead.
grizz
A little more information:

Beverly Eckert, Bereaved of 9/11, Dies in Buffalo Plane Crash

February 13, 2009 by Mark Whittington

The bitterest of all ironies placed Beverly Eckert on Continental Flight 3407, the commuter plane that crashed near Buffalo, New York. Beverly Eckert lost her husband Sean Rooney at the World Trade Center on that Second Day on Infamy, 9/11.

Beverley Eckert's husband Sean worked on the 98th floor of the South Tower. On the faithful day, he called Beverley to tell her, as it turned out one last time, that he loved her. In the midst of the telephone conversation, there was a loud explosion, then nothing.

9/11 and the death of her husband thrust Beverly Eckert into unexpected and unwanted role of activist. She and others of the bereaved of 9/11 campaigned to force Congress to pass reforms of American intelligence gathering. Beverly Eckert co-chaired the 9/11 Family Steering Committee, which pushed to create the 9/11 Commission and, once the Commission had convened and made its recommendations, to make those recommendations law.

At one point, Beverly Eckert had vowed to return to some kind of regular life, like Cincinnatus after the wars, a citizen activist. But there was no going back. The work surrounding the 9/11 reforms having been done, Beverly Eckert devoted her energies to Habitat for Humanity, an organization that helps poor people to build homes.

Even so, Beverly Eckert could never get entirely away from 9/11. A week before she died, Beverly Eckert was at the White House with others of the bereaved of 9/11 and of the USS Cole sailors, discussing with President Obama's plans for dealing with captured terrorists in the wake of the decision to close Gitmo.

Sean Rooney died at the hands of fanatic terrorists. Beverly Eckert died in a plane crash likely caused by more conventional causes, mechanical failure or pilot error or perhaps both. But the fact that they both died untimely seven and a half years apart by plane crash is both ironic and bitter.

Beverly Eckert was a woman who was able to take her grief, of losing a husband, her high school sweet heart, and turn it into something powerful. The reforms that she and the others of the bereaved of 9/11 caused to pass likely helped to ensure that no other Americans have died, so far, from terrorist action on American soil. If gave Sean Rooney's death some meaning and made sure that Beverly Eckert's life mattered.

Not a bad legacy to leave behind, that.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/1...dies.html?cat=9
grizz
Voices of September 11




My Silence Cannot Be Bought

Beverly Eckert
Friday, December 19, 2003

I've chosen to go to court rather than accept a payoff from the 9/11 victims compensation fund. Instead, I want to know what went so wrong with our intelligence and security systems that a band of religious fanatics was able to turn four U.S passenger jets into an enemy force, attack our cities and kill 3,000 civilians with terrifying ease. I want to know why two 110-story skyscrapers collapsed in less than two hours and why escape and rescue options were so limited.

I am suing because unlike other investigative avenues, including congressional hearings and the 9/11 commission, my lawsuit requires all testimony be given under oath and fully uses powers to compel evidence.

The victims fund was not created in a spirit of compassion. Rather, it was a tacit acknowledgement by Congress that it tampered with our civil justice system in an unprecedented way. Lawmakers capped the liability of the airlines at the behest of lobbyists who descended on Washington while the Sept. 11 fires still smoldered.

And this liability cap protects not just the airlines, but also World Trade Center builders, safety engineers and other defendants.

The caps on liability have consequences for those who want to sue to shed light on the mistakes of 9/11. It means the playing field is tilted steeply in favor of those who need to be held accountable. With the financial consequences other than insurance proceeds removed, there is no incentive for those whose negligence contributed to the death toll to acknowledge their failings or implement reforms. They can afford to deny culpability and play a waiting game.

By suing, I've forfeited the "$1.8 million average award" for a death claim I could have collected under the fund. Nor do I have any illusions about winning money in my suit. What I do know is I owe it to my husband, whose death I believe could have been avoided, to see that all of those responsible are held accountable. If we don't get answers to what went wrong, there will be a next time. And instead of 3,000 dead, it will be 10,000. What will Congress do then?

So I say to Congress, big business and everyone who conspired to divert attention from government and private-sector failures: My husband's life was priceless, and I will not let his death be meaningless. My silence cannot be bought.

http://www.margieadam.com/action/beckert.htm
painter
I must say, this is all bloody suspicious coming on the heels of a meeting with the President that brought 9/11 back into the headlines. Accidents do happen of course -- but, as we all know, so does assassination by aircraft sabotage.
Ricochet
Final communications.
Source. http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/p...transcript.aspx

QUOTE
Final communications of flight 3407: audio, transcript
Posted: February 13, 2009, 8:08 AM by Shane Dingman
World
The following is a transcript of this audio recording of communications between the air traffic control tower and Continental Connection flight 3407 before it crashed Thursday evening into a house near Buffalo, N.Y.




“COLGAN 3407 DESCEND AND MAINTAIN 6,000.

COLGAN 3407 DESCEND AND MAINTAIN 5,000.

5,000, COLGAN 3407.

COLGAN 3407 DESCEND AND MAINTAIN 4,000... COLGAN 3407 DESCEND AND MAINTAIN 2,300...

3407.

COLGAN 3407 TURN LEFT HEADING 330.

US TURNING 330, COLGAN 3407.

3407 — 3 MILES FROM COMP TURN AND ONE HEADING T60 MAINTAIN 2,300 TILL STATUS LOCALIZING — PRESSURE ONLY 23.
WITH 260 2,300 TILL ESTABLISH AND CLEAR TO (INAUDIBLE) REPORT COLGAN 3407.


COLGAN 3407, CONTACT 120.5 — HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.


3407.
COLGAN 3407, APPROACH.
COLGAN 3407, BUFFALO.
COLGAN 3407, NOW APPROACH.

Editor's note: At this point the air traffic controller has lost contact with flight 3407, and attempts to contact another flight to see if it can re-establish visual contact:


DELTA 1998: LOOK OUT YOUR RIGHT SIDE ABOUT FIVE MILES FOR A DASH-8. SHOULD BE 2,300. YOU SEE ANYTHING THERE?
UHH, NEGATIVE, DELTA 1998 — WE’RE JUST IN THE BOTTOMS AND NOTHING ON THE T-CASTS.
COLGAN 3407 BUFFALO.
COLGAN 3407 BUFFALO, IT’S ARHIDEY HERE.
STANDBY — THERE’S SOME GROUND COMMUNICATION — YOU NEED TO TALK TO SOMEBODY AT LEAST 5 MILES NORTHEAST. ‘K — POSSIBLY CLARENCE? THAT AREA RIGHT IN
THERE. ACRINARIA... EITHER STATE POLICE OR SHERIFF’S DEPARTMENT. YOU NEED TO FIND IF ANYTHING IS ON THE GROUND. THIS AIRCRAFT WAS 5 MILES OUT — AND ALL OF A SUDDEN WE HAVE NO RESPONSE FROM THAT AIRCRAFT.
ALL I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT THE AIRCRAFT IS OVER THE MARKER — AND WE’RE NOT TALKING TO HIM NOW.
THIS IS (INAUDIBLE)... WE’RE GOING TO HAVE TO GET RIGHT BACK TO YOU, SIR. APPARENTLY WE HAVE AN EMERGENCY AND I’LL GET BACK AS SOON AS I CAN.
OK — FELLOW AIRCRAFT — THIS FREQUENCY... WE DID HAVE A DASH-8 OVER THE MARKER THAT DIDN’T MAKE THE AIRPORT. HE APPEARS TO BE ABOUT FIVE MILES AWAY FROM
THE AIRPORT. DELTA 1998 — I’M GOING TO BRING IN SURROUNDING APPROACH, UM, IF YOU COULD JUST GIVE ME A HIGHER-UP, WHEN YOU GET TO 2,300 AND UH, IF YOU
HAVE ANY PROBLEM WITH THE LOCALIZER OR ANYTHING — LET ME KNOW. HOWEVER, WE’RE SHOWING IT ALL IN THE GRAIN HERE.
HEY — THIS IS 1452. THANKS FOR YOUR HELP. I APPRECIATE IT. CONTACT 120.5.
POWER TO CACTUS: DID YOU FIND COLGAN?
UMMMM, UNFORTUNATELY HE SAID HE WENT DOWN ABOUT... RIGHT OVER THE UH, MARKER.
POWER CACTUS: UH, 1452 IS COMING UP ON COMPTON. WE JUST SAW THE GROUND. YOU GUYS KNOW WHAT’S GOING ON?
CACTUS, IT’S 1452 BUFFALO TIRE WINTER 26014, AND WAIT 23 TO COURE D’ALENE — YES, SIR, WE ARE AWARE.
OK.

Editor's note: Now a second Colgan turboprop approaches, and the flight controller asks if he wants a different approach to the landing.


COLGAN 3268 APPROACH.
SIR, I NEED YOU TO PREPARE YOURSELF. UM, COMPANY-DASH 8 IN BOUND — WE THINK WENT DOWN OVER THE OUTER MARKER. UMMM, WE’RE NOT SURE WHY. I’M NOT SURE IF YOU WANT TO TRY AND REPROACH. SINCE THEN, WE’VE HAD MORE AIRCRAFT GOING — THEY WERE ALL JETS.
3268.
SIR, IT WAS ANOTHER DASH-8 APPROXIMATELY 15 MINUTES AGO — AND WE’RE NOT SURE WHY.
UHHHH... CAN YOU... UH, CLARIFY THE, UHH, THE DASH-8? UHHH, WHAT, UMMM, HOW DO YOU MEAN IT WENT DOWN?
HE DIDN’T MAKE THE AIRPORT. HE WAS CLEAR FOR THE APPROACH, HE WENT OVER THE TOWER, HE DIDN’T CALL THE TOWER — BASICALLY HE EXITED DOWN... AND WE COULDN’T GET A HOLD OF HIM IN HIS REPORT. HE’S, UH, WENT DOWN OVER FIVE MILES NORTHWEST OF THE AIRPORT.
UHH, YEAH — WE’LL SHOOT THEIR PURSE STILL.
TELL THEM 3268, ROGER... THERE HAVE BEEN FOUR POINT SHOOTING APPROACHES AND UH, SO, JUST TO LET YOU KNOW. COLGAN 3268 — HE’S SENDING YOUR DISCRETION
MAINTAIN 3,500. AIRCRAFT DO REPORT ONCE THEY GET TO ABOUT 2,300 — AND THEY’RE OUT (INAUDIBLE)
ALL RIGHT — 3,500 IS COOL FOR 3268.”
rob balsamo
The above transcript has alot of errors. For those wishing to have the proper audio, please download the link provided by JFK.
rob balsamo
ILS 23 KBUF (pdf)
paranoia
a list of some of the others onboard the plane:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/articl...NEWS01/90213021

Alison Des Forge, senior Africa adviser for Human Rights Watch. “She is a loss to all of those concerned about human rights and human dignity for the entire world,” friend Noorie Talebi. He described her as having a great heart. Talebi said she was returning to her home in Buffalo from a conference in London. “We were supposed to have dinner together tonight,” he said. According to the human rights watch Web site, she is an expert on Rwanda, Burundi and the Democratic Republic of Congo.

about Alison Des Forge:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2008/12/23/rwan...ch-staff-member


Beverly Eckert, of Stamford, Conn., whose husband died in the World Trade Center attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

Ron Gonzalez, 44, of North Brunswick, N.J., who worked for New Brunswick Tomorrow, a nonprofit social-services agency. Ellyce Kausner, student at Florida Coastal School of Law. Nicole Korczykowski, an employee of Barclays Capital in New Jersey.

Beth Kushner, 19, of Eden, Erie County, a Keuka College student.

Maddy Loftus of Parsippany, N.J. Was headed to State University College at Buffalo weekend reunion of women hockey players. Don McDonald of Fort Erie, Ontario, a technical manager at Pharmetics.

Coleman Mellett, a guitarist in jazz musician Chuck Mangione's band. The band was to play with the Buffalo Philharmonic Orchestra tonight.

Gerry Niewood, a saxophonist in jazz musician Chuck Mangione's band. He was a Rochester native and Eastman School of Music graduate,

Susan Wehle, 55, of Amherst, cantor for Temple Beth Am in Amherst.

Zhaofang Guo, 55, of Williamsville, husband of Dr. Ping Wang. Dr. Wang works at Roswell Park Cancer Institute.

Four employees from the Amherst office of Northrup Grumman, a defense contractor, who have not been identified.



***


edited to add:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CJC3407
paranoia
just saw this posted by SmokingGunz over at LCF:


"Two Israelis were among the dozens killed in a plane crash near Buffalo on Friday. One of them, George Abu-Karam, was a 29-year-old resident of Tiberias and a veteran of the now-defunct South Lebanon Army. Abu-Karam was in the United States visiting relatives. Another Israeli living in the U.S. was also on board the Continental flight"

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1063988.html
Trismagistus
I'm neither a pilot or an activist, but a researcher that has found a common thread in some of our infamous air disasters. Long ago the History Channel(pre- 2001) ran a show about the military's trouble trying to determine why their new helicopters were crashing. In essence, the outcome was that the electronics in commercial aircraft are not electromagnetically shielded. So the military fixed the problem easily. What was more interesting was that during the show they displayed what would happen to an aircraft in such a situation caused by electronic warfare exercises if a plane ventured into that airspace. Loss of controls and if a blackbox was discovered there would be nothing on it...no recordings. Strangely this has happened already on a number of commercial aircraft flights where just before the disaster there was no communication of an emergency...like the plane just fell out of the sky.

If you seriously study some of the most high profile cases you will find erasure of the black box recording. One example if you remember this far back was an Egyptian flight where our news spun the story that the pilots shouted "God is holy, God is great" just before plunging their aircraft into the sea. The blackbox was discovered from that flight and 13 minutes were erased. This was also divulged in the same history channel show I mentioned above.

Here's what I think. Could it be an unintentional accident that the plane got too close to some exercise? Sure. I would guess the military would do everything in its power to hide the facts. It would be embarassing. However, the capability has existed for a long time that could render a plane useless by frying its electronics with electromagnetic radiation. I don't know the power densities involved, or what type of wave. If I were in charge of the military I sure would be very interested in making sure this technology wasn't being used by private individuals or enforcing checks and balances within the military to make sure rogue groups wouldnt do the same. Dont get me wrong, I respect our military but history has warned us in the past of rogue groups. I am sorry for the loss of life of all of those passengers in Buffalo, may they rest in peace.
JFK
http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/578574.html

QUOTE
Updated: 02/13/09 08:39 PM
A partial list of passengers aboard Flight 3407



Buffalo State College provided this October 2002 photograph of former student and ice hockey player Maddy Loftus, who died in the Flight 3407 crash.
Associated Press

This is partial list of the passengers and crew aboard Continental Connection Flight 3407 as assembled by The Buffalo News. Also listed is the victim killed in the home struck by the airplane. The list will be updated as passengers are confirmed.

Pilot, Capt. Marvin Dean Renslow, 47, of Lutz, Fla. Records show Renslow, an Iowa native, was a small-business owner in Florida before joining Colgan Air in September 2005.

First flight officer Rebecca Lynne Shaw, 24, of Maple Valley, Washington, had joined Colgan Air in January 2008 and had flown 2,244 hours with Colgan. Records show she was certified as a flight instructor.

Flight attendant Matilda Quintero, 57, of Woodbridge, N.J., had been a flight attendant for just a year, and was hired by Colgan Air in May 2008.

Flight attendant Donna Prisco.

Capt. Joseph Zuffoletto, 27, an off-duty crew member from Jamestown. He joined Colgan Air in 2005 and was recently promoted to captain. He rented an apartment with two friends in Jamestown, where Colgan stationed him. Born in Rochester, he was raised in California. He has a grandmother in Cheektowaga.

Former Amherst resident Beverly Eckert, the widow of Sean Rooney, who was killed in the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Eckert was traveling to Buffalo for a family celebration of what would have been her husband's 58th birthday.

Alison Des Forges, 66, who once taught at the University at Buffalo, historian and human rights activist who documented the 1994 genocide in Rwanda.

Ellyce Kausner, 24, a graduate of Clarence High School and Canisius College, who was a second-year student at Florida Coastal School of Law in Jacksonville, Fla. She was traveling home to visit her family and boyfriend before final exams.

Madeline Loftus, 24, a former Buffalo State College student who lives in New Jersey. She was on her way to reunite with 14 other alumni of Buffalo State's women's ice hockey team for a game Saturday. Loftus played for the school team from 2002 to 2004.

Jerome Krasuski, 53, was returning home to Cheektowaga with three other colleagues from Northrop Grumman from a one-day business trip. The former North Tonawanda resident worked as a program manager for the Williamsville defense contractor for more than 20 years. Krasuski's three Northrop Grumman colleagues also died in the crash.

Susan Wehle, 55, cantor at Temple Beth Am, Amherst, was returning home from a vacation in Costa Rica. The daughter of Holocaust survivors, Wehle was a cantorial soloist at Temple Sinai in Amherst for nearly 10 years before joining Temple Beth Am in 2002. She has two sons, Jonah and Jake.

Don McDonald, 48, of Fort Erie, Ont., was a technical manager at Pharmetics, Inc. in Fort Erie for 26 years. "Don was returning from New Jersey where he was reviewing some packaging equipment that the company was planning to buy," said Peter Lucyshyn, vice-president of quality operations.

Zhaofang Guo, 55, of Amherst, a Ford employee and husband of Ping Wang, a researcher at Roswell Park Cancer Institute.

Rochester native Gerry Niewood, 64, and jazz guitarist Coleman Mellett, 34, of East Brunswick, N.J., both musicians with the Chuck Mangione Band, were scheduled to perform tonight at Kleinhans Music Hall. Niewood played saxophone and flute. He played frequently at the original Tralfamador Cafe in the 1970s, and returned frequently to play Buffalo venues.

Mary "Belle" Pettys, 50, of West Seneca, was returning to Buffalo area from a business trip to New Jersey. Pettys had spent 25 years working for BlueCross BlueShield of Western New York and since 2006 had been employed by TriZetto, a healthcare company. She got engaged last December on her birthday, and was to be married this June.

David M. Borner, 49, of Pendleton, who worked for Kraft Foods, was returning from a business trip in New Jersey. He had planned to leave for a Florida cruise with his family this morning. He has one child in Starpoint High School and another in Starpoint Middle School.

Lorin Maurer, 30, of Princeton, N.J. worked for Princeton University's Office of Development Priorities. She was traveling to Buffalo for the first time to attend the wedding of Keith Kuwik, brother of her boyfriend, Kevin Kuwik. Both are sons of former Erie County Legislator Edward J. Kuwik of Lackawanna.

Jean Srnecz, 59, senior vice-president of merchandising for book distributer Baker & Taylor, was traveling to the Buffalo area to visit family. She was a gradulate of D'Youville College.

Douglas C. Wielinski, 61, an engineer and veteran, was believed to be in the dining room of the family's Clarence Center home when the airplane crashed into the house. Wielinski's wife, Karen, was able to escape by crawling out of the family room in the rear of the house. His daughter, Jill, was blown out of the house, officials said.

Clay Yarber, 62, of Riverside, Calif., was originally from Dayton, Ohio, and became a musician after serving in the Vietnam War, according to his ex-wife. He was headed to Buffalo to spend time with a friend.

Kevin Johnston, an employee at the Henkel Corp. facility in Buffalo. The plant was closed today in Johnston's honor.

John G. Roberts III, 48, a Lewiston native who lived in India, was returning home to visit his family. He had been active in St. Joseph's Roman Catholic Church in Niagara Falls when he had resided in the area.

Ronald Gonzalez, 44, director of a youth services program in New Brunswick, N.J., was flying into Buffalo to visit relatives. He previously was executive director of Alianza Latina, a nonprofit organization addressing HIV/AIDS in Buffalo.

Bethany Kushner, 19, of Angola, was returning home after spending a few weeks in California. She was a 2007 graduate of Eden Junior-Senior High School. She attended Keuka College for a year, and planned to complete her studies at Buffalo State College. Nicole Korczykowski, whose parents live in Eden, worked for a New York City-area investment firm.

After attending Nichols School, she graduated in 2001 from the University at Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business, where she had a concentration in finance. Since then, she's been living in New York City, and has been working for various finance firms in that area.
amazed!
Another one bites the dust...Too Bad.

I guess it was ice, and maybe the anti-ice wasn't working? New airplane, no breaks tonight....

Rachel Maddow, who I do respect, was totally flipped tonight over the accident, and wanted to "be reassured" by the government. LOL.
Trismagistus
I watched the news tonight. They are missing the obvious question which was never brought up. What happened to communication at the 5 mile marker? No mention at all of it as if the ice was the whole story. I find any relevant information about that being withheld as suspicious because Ive seen this pattern before in other crashes. If that blackbox is found with no recording on it of any communications then Im stating that the plane could have been brought down by electronic warfare techniques. People want to believe in the "ice" story even though other pieces of this puzzle are missing. Completely bizzare how the news tonight totally overlooked investigating why there were no communications. See how easy it is for those in power to sway which way they want us to look? Much like a magician...watch his eyes not his hands for the full effect of the trick.
rob balsamo
Colgan 3407 Air Traffic Control Audio and Transcript

ATC Audio provided by www.liveatc.net. Transcript provided by http://pilotsfor911truth.org. Edited for pauses and irrelevant air traffic.


rob balsamo
44 guests logged onto this thread currently. Welcome those from Flightinfo. Please be sure to read the white bold letters at the bottom of this page. If you desire to register, please be advised of the forum rules.
painter
Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7890455.stm

Excerpt:




Genocide expert dies in US crash



Page last updated at 17:02 GMT, Saturday, 14 February 2009

The court trying alleged perpetrators of the Rwandan genocide has expressed its shock at the death in an air crash of a top expert on the 1994 massacres.

Alison Des Forges, 66, was among 50 people killed in a plane crash on Thursday near Buffalo, New York state.

A spokesman for the the UN tribunal for Rwanda called her death "a great loss", said AFP news agency.

Ms Des Forges was an expert adviser to the court on the genocide, in which some 800,000 people were killed.

"It is with deep shock that the tribunal has learned of the tragic disappearance of Alison Des Forges," said Roland Amoussouga, a spokesman for the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda.

"It is a great loss for the world of human rights, international justice and the whole of humanity," he added.


Ms Des Forges wrote a key study
of the Rwanda genocide

Trismagistus
At 2300 feet heading 2-6-0 3407 was instructed to contact tower 120.5. Everything seemed fine at that point. No indications of the slightest emergency or concern of ice unlike CACTUS 1452 which was the most vocal about ice build up or RIME ice.
Delta 1998 was instructed to look for 3407 out the right side window but I guess sinceDelta was flying IMC that it wouldn't be possible to spot them? So the Delta pilot indicated he didn't see anything on TCAS either which is Traffic Collision Avoidance System that works by transponder that alerts pilots of other aircraft in their vicinity. Would TCAS work at 5 miles out?
Delta 1998 was flying IMC which stands for Instrument Meteorological Conditions, also known as 'blind flying' at 2,300 feet. VFR stands for Visual Flight Rules which permits the pilot to fly by site if conditions permit.
Well I'm still asking, what happened to 3407 at 2,300 feet? Even if the ice presented a problem, why no last communications? At that elevation there seems to have been plenty of time for a pilot to contact the tower. It will be interesting to find out whats on that blackbox if it's found and intact. Or more interesting what's not on it.
captsly
NOTE WHAT IS SAID AT 31 MINUTES AND ZERO SECONDS.......

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...31008391&hl=en
rob balsamo
Welcome to the forum captsly.

Please try to post in regular font.

Also, your link is broken.
JFK
QUOTE (captsly @ Feb 14 2009, 06:37 PM) *
NOTE WHAT IS SAID AT 31 MINUTES AND ZERO SECONDS.......

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...31008391&hl=en

Looks like a malformed URL due to a copy paste from another forum to me. whistle.gif
DoYouEverWonder
NYT - In Plane Crash, Loss of Momentum Still a Mystery

February 14, 2009

AMHERST, N.Y. — The commuter plane that crashed near Buffalo on Thursday night slammed to the ground flat on its belly, with almost no forward momentum and facing opposite its intended route, seconds after two automatic warnings to the pilots that the plane was not moving fast enough to stay aloft, the National Transportation Safety Board said on Saturday.

The description indicates that the plane, a Bombardier Dash 8 Q400, suffered an aerodynamic stall, meaning the flow of air over the wings was either disrupted or too slow to sustain flight, but the reason why remains a mystery.

Icing, which the crew of the plane reported shortly before the crash, is one possible reason, but Steven Chealander, the safety board member assigned to the investigation and a retired airline captain, said the aircraft had a sophisticated ice protection system.

The plane was equipped, he said, with pneumatic boots, which are a bit like tires, on the front edges of the wings, the tail and the vertical stabilizer, that inflate and contract twice a minute to break ice accumulations, as well as electrically heated propellers. The system gives an indication in the cockpit if any boot is not working, and so far, investigators have found no sign of such an indication, Mr. Chealander said.

“This Dash 8 is a workhorse airplane,” he said. “It’s not really susceptible to ice.”

Investigators searching the crash site for evidence have described a fire so intense that on one of the plane’s two propellers, all six blades were completely destroyed. The blades are made of a mixture of polyurethane and carbon. Past crashes have been caused by broken blades.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has been scouring the neighborhood for parts that were thrown off before the plane hit the ground but have not found any, investigators said.

The flight, Continental Connection Flight 3407, began from Newark Liberty International Airport and was headed for Buffalo Niagara International Airport. It crashed into a house in the hamlet of Clarence Center, about six miles from the Buffalo airport, killing all 49 people on board and one person in the house.

Firefighters had pumped water on the smoldering wreckage for so many hours that the site became covered with ice, further complicating the investigation. On Saturday, volunteer firefighters and other workers used torpedo-shaped heaters to melt some of the ice, Mr. Chealander said. They were working in a cramped space in which the wreckage of a house is mixed with that of the plane and with the remains of the dead.

The medical examiner expects to take three or four more days to remove the bodies, Mr. Chealander said. Investigators are hoping to have all the wreckage recovered before Wednesday, when a major snowstorm is expected.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/nyregion/15crash.html?hp

1. What's with the single minded focus on 'ice'? Not even the standard 'we don't suspect terrorism' mentioned?

2. Interesting that they actually have 'bodies' to recover, especially after such an intense fire. Flight 93 was gone in a puff of smoke and all they had were human remains. rolleyes.gif
captsly
QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 14 2009, 06:46 PM) *
Welcome to the forum captsly.

Please try to post in regular font.

Also, your link is broken.



sorry 'bout the font , Google took down the video that nasa langly made about tail plane icing....
i have a personal copy i'll have to burn it and post it as a private video..... might be due to the number of hits... it's public information, so it;s interesting that it was removed....
captsly
QUOTE (captsly @ Feb 14 2009, 10:29 PM) *
sorry 'bout the font , Google took down the video that nasa langly made about tail plane icing....
i have a personal copy i'll have to burn it and post it as a private video..... might be due to the number of hits... it's public information, so it;s interesting that it was removed....




try this:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3493859021331008391

note what is said at 31 minutes...
albertchampion
when i was flying my baron, icing was the scariest situation encountered.

fortunately, everytime i encountered it, i was able to find a warmer flight level and escape.

but eventually, my rule was that i tried not to fly into those conditions.

if pireps reported icing in my flight path, i either turned around, put it down, or didn't launch.

what happened last week? what caused this bird to become so iced-up that it augured in and no bird before or afterwards experienced the same accumulation of ice?

i am comfortable, however, with the assertion that severe icing conditions can exist short-term, affecting no other aircraft. mainly because adverse weather can be a very isolated phenomenon.

still, if you recall some of my posts of how murder can be disguised in a catastrophe, it might be considered who on this flight was wanted to be dead.

to me, the clear target would be alison des forges. who had to have discovered the activities of the us intell services in ruanda, our running of kagame. the establishment of africom.

bev eckert. not so much a target. as i recall, she never questioned the "official" story concerning the events of 11/09/01. she just objected to the usg's ostensible negligence. i don't think that she ever considered the usg the instigator of the events of that day. but i could be getting that inaccurately.
amazed!
Having never flown the Dash 8, it's a safe bet that a fully developed stall 2000 feet above terrain would be difficult to recover from, loaded with ice. And flaps and gear would seal one's fate.

Kinda like Roselawn, Indiana with the ATR those years ago.
Trismagistus
In reading the last few posts Im in agreement and I'm astonished that the news services here in the US are only focusing on the ice as being the only culprit.Like mockingbirds that only mimic sounds. They chime together on the same story even though this plane was equipped with de-icing equipment and up til this pilots last communication she never once mentioned ice as an issue but in millions of Americans minds over the last week thanks to the so called 'news' most people believe that ice is the only factor. Unbelievable. How long does it take for a plane to fall from 2,300 feet? I'm supposed to believe that a pilot can't make contact with the ground in that time? I guess the ice accumulation was so massive at 2,300 feet that this aircraft turned into a giant block of ice instantaneously maybe 10 feet thick thus repelling any radio-wave communications? So they must have all froze to death instantly then fell straight down? Excuse my cynicism, I'm just mad about the needless loss of life and the incapability of a proper investigation that asks the obvious questions. Thank you all for the information about the de-icing capability of this plane...very important fact. I suspect that if ice was a problem the pilot would have alerted the tower of intention to change altitude. Also interesting to note that the plane landed flat but seems to have had no forward air speed mentioned in the investigation. If ice fell this plane and it fell out of the sky with no control how was the pilot able to land flat? There's some pieces missing in this investigation and hopefully since the tail section was still partially intact, the blackbox may be recovered."The crew discussed significant ice build-up — ice on the windshield and leading edges of the wings," said the NTSB's Steven R. Chealander. This line is interesting because if true I didn't hear anything in the communications to the tower posted above. I borrowed this from another website..."Dash 8 operating instructions state that, when operating in icing conditions, engine intake by-pass doors must be open, engine ignition switches must be set at manual, and airframe de-ice must be set to slow or fast." The author of that quotation stated that most pilots still wait for ice accumulation before switching the airframe de-icer on in order to prevent what they call 'ice bridging'.
KP50
QUOTE (Trismagistus @ Feb 16 2009, 07:15 AM) *
In reading the last few posts Im in agreement and I'm astonished that the news services here in the US are only focusing on the ice as being the only culprit.Like mockingbirds that only mimic sounds. They chime together on the same story even though this plane was equipped with de-icing equipment and up til this pilots last communication she never once mentioned ice as an issue but in millions of Americans minds over the last week thanks to the so called 'news' most people believe that ice is the only factor. Unbelievable. How long does it take for a plane to fall from 2,300 feet? I'm supposed to believe that a pilot can't make contact with the ground in that time? I guess the ice accumulation was so massive at 2,300 feet that this aircraft turned into a giant block of ice instantaneously maybe 10 feet thick thus repelling any radio-wave communications? So they must have all froze to death instantly then fell straight down? Excuse my cynicism, I'm just mad about the needless loss of life and the incapability of a proper investigation that asks the obvious questions. Thank you all for the information about the de-icing capability of this plane...very important fact. I suspect that if ice was a problem the pilot would have alerted the tower of intention to change altitude. Also interesting to note that the plane landed flat but seems to have had no forward air speed mentioned in the investigation. If ice fell this plane and it fell out of the sky with no control how was the pilot able to land flat? There's some pieces missing in this investigation and hopefully since the tail section was still partially intact, the blackbox may be recovered."The crew discussed significant ice build-up — ice on the windshield and leading edges of the wings," said the NTSB's Steven R. Chealander. This line is interesting because if true I didn't hear anything in the communications to the tower posted above. I borrowed this from another website..."Dash 8 operating instructions state that, when operating in icing conditions, engine intake by-pass doors must be open, engine ignition switches must be set at manual, and airframe de-ice must be set to slow or fast." The author of that quotation stated that most pilots still wait for ice accumulation before switching the airframe de-icer on in order to prevent what they call 'ice bridging'.

I watched the news in NZ and the story was along the lines of "a major breakthrough in the investigation of why the plane crashed in New York State" and as you say, it was ice, ice, ice all the way. My bullshit detector began to sound as there was no actual new evidence at all. But "they" know people will lose interest in this story in a day or 2 so they fix it in their minds as ice and then eventually the NTSB report will come out and say that it was caused by ice.
Omega892R09
QUOTE (KP50 @ Feb 13 2009, 07:21 PM) *
I watched the news in NZ and the story was along the lines of "a major breakthrough in the investigation of why the plane crashed in New York State" and as you say, it was ice, ice, ice all the way. My bullshit detector began to sound as there was no actual new evidence at all. But "they" know people will lose interest in this story in a day or 2 so they fix it in their minds as ice and then eventually the NTSB report will come out and say that it was caused by ice.

I'll put this remark I made in another thread as it fits right in with what you, and I, think:

Wasn't icing pointed at in the Senator Wellstone crash and a probable ILS fault on the ground? WRT 3407, I noted the ILS malfunction concerns of the voice from Buffalo ATC who I thought could do with speech training to improve the chances of his being understood.
DoYouEverWonder
QUOTE
Fatal US plane 'was on autopilot'

15 February 2009

A plane that crashed onto a house in New York state, killing 50 people, was on autopilot when it went down in icy weather, investigators have said.

The Continental Airlines pilot may have breached federal safety recommendations by flying in such conditions, investigator Steve Chealander said.

Pilots are recommended to fly manually in icy weather, he said.

Analysis of the plane's data recorders shows the crew noticed significant ice build-up on its wings before the crash.

"You may be able in a manual mode to sense something sooner than the autopilot can sense it," said Mr Chealander, a spokesman for the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).

He told the Associated Press news agency that the NTSB recommended pilots disengage their craft's autopilot facility in icy conditions.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7891770.stm


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nitatutt
The local weather was odd on the 12th.
We are all victims of current events - and it is nearly impossible to discern the truth from the lies that are broadcast 24/7.
I hope Beverly Eckert finally has the answers to her (our) questions, and I hope Alison Des Forges's legacy will continue, but I doubt it - we are trapped like rats in a cage.
I wouldn't surprise me if in the near future America experiences a "Rwanda" event, it appears that the demonic powers are hungry for more blood.
albertchampion
there are many incorrect aspects of this flight reported by so many. this was a continental express flight. i don't think that the crew were continental airlines employees. i think they worked for colgan[which i think is a dba for another corporate entity that provides "shuttle" services for a number of major carriers in addition to continental].

what i also think that i have learned from these preliminary reports from the ntsb was that bird was flying away from buffalo international. i would like to hear more of those controller tapes. unedited i trust that the ntsb will acquire them. because if it is true that this plane made some turn away from the airport, i would like to hear how that manuever was made/authorized, since the flight was essentially on final.

all things considered, it appears to be one of the strangest accidents in aviation history. consider, a commercial airliner landing on a house with zero forward momentum in "belly flop" mode. i cannot imagine how that could happen unless the house had some kind of science-fiction style tractor beam aimed at the bird. i know of choppers going in that way, but i have never heard of a fixed wing colliding with terrain in that aspect. have any of you?

another part of the story that has intrigued me is the report of the conflagration that ensued. as i read the statements from the fired department, they all read as if the fire squads rarely encountered such a difficult to extinguish fire, and hosed the collision site down with so much water that the site was rendered an ice cube, and that for the investigation to commence, forced air heaters had to be deployed to melt that ice cube.

how much fuel would a dash 8 carry in excess of what it would take to fly from newark to buffalo? enough for a raging conflagration that went on for a length of time considered unique by the fire dept?

contrast this with the collision with terrain site of UA93 which exhibited virtually no evidence of any raging conflagration.

the other thing that puzzles me is the alacrity of the ntsb to get to the accident site and to issue preliminary reports/findings. contrast this with the ntsb's absence from any of the collisions with terrain sites of 11/09/01.

oh well, i think most of us know that at least since twa800 the ntsb has become an arm of the amerikan okhrana.
richard cranium
The ABC affiliate here in southern California keeps mentioning and stressing the fact that the "autopilot" was on,and it shouldn't have been. I'm not a pilot and not really sure what they are saying,and how important it is. Perhaps someone here could elucidate. They also showed a cartoon-type recreation of the plane spinning like a top as it decends and crashes. I was kinda wondering what everybody thought about that too.

Concerning Beverly Eckert. Last Friday evening I was watching Charles Gibson's Nightly News (on ABC) and he stated that the whole reason Beverly Eckert sued the government was because she simply wanted "an apology". What the f***?

rc
albertchampion
the "on" autopilot aspect of this story intrigues me.

because of what occurred during the fatal "accident" involving AS261. in that accident, according to the ntsb's interpretation of the fdr, when that flight began to go nasty it commenced with the re-engagement of the autopilot offshore pt mugu. there has never been a good explanation for why this autopilot system became re-engaged after having been disengaged within minutes of departing puerto vallarta hours earlier.

it is beyond my imagining that the crew of AS261 decided to re-engage the autopilot after having flown the bird manually since departure. especially since the flight crew knew that the autopilot system was malfunctioning, especially in the matter of trim. and the record was clear that this malfunctioning was the source of considerable communication with LA CONTROL and alaska airline maintenance personnel. the solution to the malfunctioning trim aspect of the autopilot was decided upon within minutes after launch: the plane would be flown to oakland manually.

in my analysis, some external mechanism re-engaged that autopilot system and complete manual control of the bird was denied that flight crew as a result of that event.

and though is is entirely possible that the colgan flight crew was still on autopilot when the accident occurred, this would not be a violation of any FAR's. on the other hand, just because the autopilot was engaged at the time of the collision with terrain does not mean that the crew engaged that autopilot system.

it may sound tin foil hattish, but i think that the us military has the mechanisms to acquire control of electronified birds...to contest the physical control of a flight crew.

by the way, this dash 8 was one of the first in a new generation of highly electronified variants of that design.

i wonder if there were any military aircraft working in the buffalo vicinity that night. as elaine scarry discovered in her 3 part investigation into TWA800 that was published in the new york review of books, there were lots of military aircraft conducting operations that night[all of which were denied by the dowar]. and by the way, to the best of my knowledge, scarry's work has never been picked up by the msm. even though most of her findings have been confirmed by the usg. research thrown down the memory hole.

alison des forges was the target. her story is right out of le carre. a sequel to his the constant gardener.
datars
QUOTE (painter @ Feb 10 2009, 12:32 PM) *
I must say, this is all bloody suspicious coming on the heels of a meeting with the President that brought 9/11 back into the headlines. Accidents do happen of course -- but, as we all know, so does assassination by aircraft sabotage.

I agree
JFK
A cockpit view of the Q-400 from bombardier - http://209.85.62.24/18/3/0/p120943/ph_bombardier_q400_12.png (3.41 Mb )
rob balsamo
Steve Nieman is one of our core members and is a Capt on this airplane. I emailed him to stop by for the discussion when he has some time.

Thanks for posting the cockpit pic JFK.

For those interested, the "Ice Panel" (really anti-ice, de-ice), is on the upper left overhead. Cant miss it. Looks like the airplane is well equipped to handle ice.
paranoia
im far from anything even remotely close to being a pilot or air craft mechanic, but i have some thoughts/questions.

"ice caused the crash"

it is february and in buffalo at that, so ice isnt exactly unusual, imho. plus the very day/night of the crash, even down here in virginia we were having wind gusts of up to 50 mph. so those two factors (ice/wind), if calculated into the events, might not make a crash out of the norm. frankly, im always shocked that there arent more major crashes in the winter skies, when u consider how many planes are flying around in extreme weather conditions.

but lets assume for a minute, ice was indeed the main factor leading to the crash. in other words, lets assume (hypothetically of course) that ice had indeed managed to freeze on enough of a surface on the craft's wings to render its airfoil inefficient.

the question would then become why? as in - why did the apparatus in place to melt or get rid of that ice, fail? ice itself may have indeed caused the crash, but im not saying the crash isnt suspicious, but that i personally wouldnt look at reports of "ice as the cause of the crash" as being suspicious part of this whole incident.

i think that if someone did sabotage the plane and wanted to make it look like a "natural" occurrence (due to mechanical failure), they would render the anti-ice machinery inoperable, and expect (to a very specifically calculated degree of certainty) that they could/would succeed in crashing the plane, given that it is winter and snowy and wet in where the plane was flying or going to fly. as a an added measure, this saboteur might have also have had in place some way of cutting off the (final) communications of the plane in order to make sure no hints/clues (via cockpit communications) were left behind.

maybe my scenario is a bit too technically demanding or complex and therefore too sensational to execute - i dont know... like i said, im no expert and have very little relevant knowledge about what would be involved on a physical parameters level. but i dont think ice being the culprit is in and of itself something to be suspicious of. ice happens in the winter. but (close to) 99 percent of the planes fly and land safely in the winter cuz corrective/preventative measures are taken and the planes' are equipped to get rid of the ice. so where this plane failed and why (if ice is indeed the cause), is where i think the answer (to what really happened) lies. perhaps someone (here) with relevant knowledge can comment or share some insights into the plausibility (or lack-thereof) of my hypothesis.


the future:

chances are likely some bs explanation for the mechanical failure of the anti-ice devices will be found and given by the ntsb down the road. then it will be up to the plane companies (the carrier and the plane manufacturer) as well as anti-ice device manufacturers to duke it out against the ntsb and to try to avoid taking the blame or fall (given the financial costs involved with such liability/responsibility). the flip side - and the defense possibly, might be blaming it on pilot error or miscalculation, hence the floating of the "auto-pilot" story...


Plane That Crashed Near Buffalo Was on Autopilot,
possible violation of safety recommendations:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6882782


i guess we'll see.




***



some musings on a seperate but related note:

i also wonder about the miracle on the hudson plane and its AVERTED crash. what if those engines had been sabotaged (not by birds) and some of the passengers on that plane had been targeted for neutralization (death)? but that thanks to the heroic/expert flying of the plane (and its consequent safe water landing) the plot failed? what if some of the people onboard this flight were actually also on the hudson-miracle plane? was there ever a list of all passengers released for the miracle plane? yes, im speculating...

but regardless and seperate of any possible (passenger) connection between the 2 crashes, i personally find the hudson-miracle crash to be much more suspicious than this current one - not because of the amazing landing - but because of the allegation that birds managed to take out both engines of that plane... unlike ice in the winter, managing to hit both engines with birds is very UNUSUAL, to me at least...

meh... just thinking outloud, please dont mind me...

whistle.gif



***

edited to add video:

http://abcnews.go.com/video/playerIndex?id=6881966

(first half blames ice, second half auto pilot)
rob balsamo
Although i hate to do this prior to seeing a report by the NTSB, i'll give my 2 cents thus far.

According to the ATC audio, winds were not a factor. Wind reports were within 10-20 degrees of runway (IIRC) and around 14 knots.

Also according to the same audio, it appears ice was also not a factor. Aircraft reported 1/4" Rime ice on the descent (according to Delta 1998) and were shedding the ice once level at intercept altitude (altitude to intercept the glideslope of the ILS, air was obviously warmer there and ice was shedding off the airframe) according to Cactus 1452.

The Q400 is well equipped to handle flight into known icing conditions. The aircraft is equipped with de-ice boots (inflatable rubber "boots" on leading edges which cracks off the ice) and other de-ice/anti-ice features (windshield heat, .etc). Reading other boards and those who fly the Q400, the Q400 has two automatic modes for ice removal (you can see them on the overhead Ice Panel). A slow mode and fast mode. Slow mode cycles the boots (inflates the boots/cracks off the ice), once every 3 minutes. Fast mode inflates once every minute.

If ice were a factor, the ice would have had to accumulate to "dangerous levels" in less than 3 minutes prior to flap selection if the pilots had slow mode selected. Since this was an approach, and there was obvious ice, fast mode was probably selected (need more info here from FDR/Airline policy). Which means ice would have had to accumulate to danger levels in less than a minute. However, other aircraft on the approach do not report severe icing of any kind during the same time of the approach, flying in the same air and same altitudes.

If any ice protection on the aircraft had failed, the pilots would be alerted via cockpit alerts and will run the checklist/QRH. I have never seen a checklist which allows continued flight into known icing with failed ice protection equipment. Therefore, the pilots would have had to divert to another airport (if able to find an airport with no ice, they would have had fuel for an alternate. Google: IFR Fuel Reserves), or declare an emergency and land at KBUF, which they did not, nor did they indicate any ice protection equipment fail to ATC when they supposedly reported Ice to ATC. This is why we need to see the FDR/CVR. The NTSB has made no mention of an Ice Protect fail and they have reviewed the FDR. If there was an Ice Protect Fail, the NTSB most likely would have said something to that effect by now, if they are offering AP modes to the public.

Keep in mind, the audio provided by liveatc.net is a scanner type of receiver. It seems to have been scanning tower and approach frequencies at Buffalo. When someone speaks, the scanner stops on the freq. If both freq's are 'active' at the same time, some transmission could be cut off. We need to see the "official transcript" for full ATC audio. Colgan 3407 may have reported their ice when the liveatc scanner stopped on the tower freq.

Albert brings up a good point regarding the claims of a "flat" crash. The crash scene reported up to this point claims no signs of forward momentum. Did this thing flat spin into the house?

I would like to see the full ATC transcripts from the time of DL1998 check in to land, FDR and CVR of Colgan 3407, before drawing any conclusions.
rob balsamo
Found these on another board....

QUOTE
METARS for KBUF for the past 6 hours...

130254Z is the closest to accident time..

KBUF 130732Z 33009KT 5SM -SN BR FEW008 SCT013 OVC017 M01/M03 A2989 RMK
AO2 P0001

KBUF 130712Z 33009KT 2 1/2SM -SN BR FEW005 BKN009 OVC015 M01/M02 A2989 RMK AO2 P0001

KBUF 130654Z 33009KT 2SM -SN BR FEW004 SCT009 OVC013 M01/M02 A2988 RMK AO2 SLP126 P0001 T10111022

KBUF 130652Z 33008KT 2SM -SN BR FEW004 SCT009 OVC013 M01/M02 A2988 RMK AO2 P0001

KBUF 130612Z 32007KT 2 1/2SM -SN BR BKN007 OVC014 M01/M01 A2986 RMK AO2 CIG 003V010 P0001

KBUF 130554Z COR 32009KT 1SM R23/5000VP6000FT -SN BR BKN005 OVC010 00/M01 A2985 RMK AO2 WSHFT 0548 CIG 003V008 SLP116 P0001 60011 4/001 T00001006 10006 20000 53019

KBUF 130552Z 31010KT 1SM R23/5000VP6000FT -SN BR BKN007 OVC013 00/M01 A2985 RMK AO2 CIG 003V010 P0000

KBUF 130505Z COR 25012KT 4SM -SN BR BKN008 BKN015 OVC021 01/00 A2983 RMK AO2 CIG 005V011 P0000

KBUF 130458Z 25012KT 3SM -FZRA BR BKN008 OVC015 01/00 A2983 RMK AO2 FZRAB58SNE58 CIG 005V012 P0000

KBUF 130454Z 26014KT 3SM -SN BR SCT011 OVC021 01/00 A2983 RMK AO2 SLP109 P0004 T00060000 401060000

KBUF 130354Z 24011KT 3SM -SN BR SCT011 OVC021 01/M01 A2981 RMK AO2 SLP103 P0002 T00061006

KBUF 130254Z 24015G22KT 3SM -SN BR FEW011 BKN021 OVC027 01/M01 A2979 RMK AO2 SLP097 P0001 60004 T00061006 51015

KBUF 130154Z 24015G23KT 3SM -SN BR FEW011 OVC021 01/M01 A2978 RMK AO2 SLP092 P0001 T00061006

KBUF 130149Z 24015KT 3SM -SN BR FEW011 OVC021 01/M01 A2978 RMK AO2 P0001
JFK
QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 12:28 AM) *
Thanks for posting the cockpit pic JFK.


You are welcome Rob.

Has anyone else been searching for details on the flight computer for that series of plane ?

A pic from THIS document. ( screenshot of cover page only )



Volume 2 Chapter 11 Section 34 page 2

The system used in the Q-400 supplied by Thales looks to be even more sophisticated.
datars
Good Post!!! Nice input from everyone.

All be well
Chuck
rob balsamo
QUOTE (JFK @ Feb 16 2009, 09:12 AM) *
You are welcome Rob.

Has anyone else been searching for details on the flight computer for that series of plane ?


Not sure exactly what 'details' you're looking for as "Flight Computer" is a bit vague. There are many computers to a Flight Management System. The central Flight Management Computer is just an end user "terminal" (if you will) which brings them all together.

The diagram you show above is the communications part of the FMS/FMC, via ACARS.

Anything specific you are looking for?
JFK
QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 10:38 AM) *
Not sure exactly what 'details' you're looking for as "Flight Computer" is a bit vague. There are many computers to a Flight Management System. The central Flight Management Computer is just an end user "terminal" (if you will) which brings them all together.

The diagram you show above is the communications part of the FMS/FMC, via ACARS.

Anything specific you are looking for?


A hypothetical data path originating from the airline operations data link ( or nav sat system ) to the flight control surfaces... For now.
amazed!
This is a classic stall/spin accident, with several factors contributing. He did about half turn of the spin, which accounts for the orientation of the aircraft relative to its heading on final.

Apparently the guy had the A/P turned on, in violation of op specs and recommended procedures.

Whereas the pilot might have felt the degraded wing performance because of the ice, the A/P cannot. If there was an angle of attack indicator or recording, it would show very near to critical.
paranoia
QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Feb 16 2009, 03:18 AM) *
Although i hate to do this prior to seeing a report by the NTSB, i'll give my 2 cents thus far.

According to the ATC audio, winds were not a factor. Wind reports were within 10-20 degrees of runway (IIRC) and around 14 knots.

Also according to the same audio, it appears ice was also not a factor....


thanks for the details about the wind/ice rob. it was exactly the kind of (technical) insight that i
needed to better understand whats (possibly) wrong with (the given cause to) this crash.

btw- did u check the video i linked at the bottom of my post (from ABCnews)?
in it they depicted the plane in a flat spin falling down out of the sky...
but thats ABC not the ntsb,
so their animation/simulation of the event doesnt really count for anything "official".

and speaking of animations,

here is NBC Nightly News's report (with their own simulation) that aired tonight:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/29226906#29226906

note the seeds being planted:







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