Now, I don't agree with everything Makow espouses but he is correct regarding this issue and how it is being used to destroy the family here in Western civilization. I am also willing to bet there are many gays that also do not like their sexuallty being used as a political football. What someone else does in their bedroom I could care less but this issue is entirely contrived for divide and conquer purposes.

http://www.henrymakow.com/hollywoods_freaky_families.html

Illuminati Persecute Heterosexuals
August 21, 2010

Turkey baster families? Three Hollywood movies tout artificial insemination.

by Henry Makow Ph.D.

Every day, heterosexuals face an insidious mass media campaign designed to make homosexuality the social norm.

This vicious underhanded attack on heterosexual identity is disguised as defending "homosexual rights."

To defend gay rights, heterosexuals are taught to deny gender, marriage and family. The fundamental human rights of 98% of the population -- the right to natural human development -- are violated.

I'd call that hate.

People get their identity, meaning and support from family. The Illuminati is re engineering humanity to serve them.

THE BIG PICTURE

Humanity is satanically possessed. This sounds incredible and bizarre but it is literally true.

Humanity is controlled by a satanic cult called the Illuminati. They grew out of the Sabbatean heresy, a satanic Jewish movement from the 17th and 18th century that engulfed half the Jews of Europe. This led directly to the growth of Communism, Socialism, and Zionism.

Jewish rabbis identified them as Satanist and said they would destroy Judaism.

Their blueprint for world satanic domination is the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Homosexuality is just one of many "false doctrines" designed to weaken and enslave the goyim. "We must introduce into their education all those principles which have so brilliantly broken up their order." (Protocols 16)

Sigmund Freud was a Sabbatean Jew. The Sabbateans practiced every sexual deviance including wife swapping, incest and pedophilia as a means of flaunting God and the natural/spiritual order. This satanic practice has been introduced as "sexual liberation" "feminism" and "gay rights." .

Sabbatean Jews have incredible power by virtue of their control of government credit. They have created a puppet Gentile elite using Freemasonry (Cabalism for goyim.) Barack Obama is one of many such Masonic puppets. They control corporations (advertising), government, education and the mass media which is devoted to social engineering.

CABALISM- FORGING REALITY

The Illuminati substitute their self-serving reality for true reality. They make lies seem truth; evil seem good.

This is why the world is becoming a zanier and zanier place. History and current events are literally scripted. We are living in a matrix.

Remember that scene of people fleeing from the crashing towers on 9-11. Remind you of a Hollywood disaster movie? The same Illuminati mentality scripted and funded the "Al Queda" attack as the summer blockbuster in your local theater.

The world wars were similarly choreographed complete with costumes and songs. Better to kill the goyim. Expendable non-Sabbatean Jews had to die in order to disguise this plot.

To control the world, the Sabbateans must recreate it in their own image. That requires destruction of religion, race, nation, and of course family. They use homosexuality to destroy family.

Homosexuality is a developmental disorder caused by gender confusion. It is promoted as a normal lifestyle choice to undermine heterosexuals and ultimately enslave society.

Despite what the mass media says, the vast majority of homosexuals want sex not marriage or children. This is the Illuminati plan for heterosexuals.

As I have said, they are turning us into homosexuals. (How would gays feel if they were subjected to such a campaign in reverse?) My readers tell me that between 25 and 50% of the young females they meet are bisexual. Do you think this is conducive to successful heterosexual marriage and family?

HOLLYWOOD'S TURKEY BASTER FAMILIES

Here are some examples of the current media barrage intended to undermine and replace heterosexual norms:

Movie - "The Switch" with Jennifer Aniston. Aging feminist resorts to turkey baster to have child. Discovers male friend switched his sperm. Only way men can have children these days.

Aniston got headlines by saying "women don't need men to have a child." She is a role model for millions of young girls. "A List" actors and actresses are Illuminati mouthpieces.

Movie - "The Back up Plan" - Jennifer Lopez plays a woman who conceives twins through artificial insemination, only to meet the man of her dreams on the very same day.

Movie - "The Children are all Right" - The children of two lesbians find their common sperm donor father who is only too happy to enter the family dynamic.

All three movies mimic normal healthy heterosexual families in order to show that they aren't necessary.

News Item - Gay Actor Neil Patrick Harris and partner will have twin boys with "beautiful surrogate " in Oct.

News Item- Kathy Griffin tells Larry King: "Heterosexual marriage should be a criminal offense."

She says gay marriage is a "civil rights issue." What about the civil rights of 96% of the population who don't want their
institutions attacked and redefined out of existence?

News Item - ABC news is the most Illuminati Jewish network of the three. In the show "What Would You DO?" August 20 they showed two beautiful "lesbians" kissing on a park bench and filmed the reaction of passers-by. Although some criticism was noted, the message is that "love conquers all." I wonder what the reaction would have been if those girls looked like butches? In another episode, they showed people defending gays against "gay bashing." Heterosexuals, not gays are being oppressed.

News Item - "Gender Differences Due to Socialization not Genetics" The Guardian Aug. 15 In her new book "Delusions of Gender" feminist scientist Cordelia Fine says there are no neurological differences between the sexes."

More "News" Items -

Children Of Lesbians May Do Better Than Their Peers [Time]
Few Psychological Problems For Children Of Lesbian Mothers [Medpage Today]
Kids Of Lesbians Have Fewer Behavioral Problems, Study Suggests [CNN]

As with climate warming and homosexuality, the Illuminati manufacture their own science and then tout it in their wholly owned mass media.

CONCLUSION

The Illuminati attack on gender has resulted in untold suffering and degradation for millions of heterosexuals. Young men and women depend on marriage and family for purpose and satisfaction. Instead, many young women are turning to pornography, satanism and prostitution.

The Illuminati takeover is entering its final stages. War, financial upheaval,
migrations, natural disasters, plagues etc. are all part of the agenda. We can only keep our head by recognizing that it is all being engineered by the Illuminati and their lackeys, our so-called political and cultural leaders.

This might all sound a bit crazy to most people, but I have been researching this topic for a very long time and I'd have to say, with some reservations, that what Quest is describing is probably pretty close to the truth.

As for my reservations, if "Svali" is to be believed, theyTM are "Luciferian" more so than "Satanic", though it's a subtle difference and these terms refer to Venus and Saturn, not the "devil" per-se. Their Greek equivalents were Aphrodite and Chronus, and in the Levant pantheon Astarte and El. They were brother and sister (in a sense - Chronus was an actual son of Uranus while Aphrodite sprang from his genitals which had been tossed into the sea), and represented primary dualistic principles - heaven and earth, sky and fertility. I think the Venus/Saturn pair were so powerful in the Roman pagan belief system at the time that the early Catholics intentionally vilified them, which is why we link Lucifer (Venus) and Saturn with Satan, the devil.

The following terms are all intimately linked; Sabbatean, Sheba, Saba, Saba-zios, Cybele/Kybele, Kabbalah. The Sabbateans were Kabbalists.

Sabazios was Kybele merged with Zeus. "John" author of 'Ladon Gog' has a great chapter where he makes a good case that 'Saba' and 'Kybele' are essentially the same, and if you take the vowels out (ancient Hebrew didn't use vowels), Kybele and Kabbalah are essentially the same word - K-B-L. The cults of Sabazios, Kybele and Dionysis were all secretive and engaged in wild rituals, possibly involving human sacrifice and almost certainly, at least in the case of the cult of Kybele, an initiation ritual for priests which involved self-emasculation. We know this from the Romans. The cult of Kybele was very popular and spread to Rome where it was tolerated. The priests however were not Roman, they were traditionally easterners, probably of Anatolian ancestry, who were called "Galli". The reasons they mutilated themselves are two-fold.

The lover of Kybele was Attis, who she drove mad and who castrated himself. Attis died from his wound and was reborn as a pine tree. This is why we decorate pine trees at Christmas - the myth of Attis was the original (or close to it) resurrection myth. (You don't even want to know why we hang balls on our Christmas trees!) The deeper reason has to do with Kabbalah, in whose Tree of Life the 10 aspects of god are represented. Two of these aspects are the male and the female, and the union of male and female was an important theme in these Kabbalah inspired sects of Anatolia and Thrace during the Greek era. The Galli priests were, in effect, attempting to manifest in their own bodies the union of male and female.

This isn't just a Kabbalah (as it pertains to the Jewish Kabbalistic sect) thing either, the "Christian" aristocracy of medieval Europe was primarily a mix of Viking and Frank, and the Viking and Frank kings traced their own ancestry back to the kings of Troy. Troy was the main city of the Trojan kingdom where these perverse cults were active, in fact Troy was just a hop skip and a jump from Mt. Ida, the mythical home of the goddess Kybele (Attis' lover) - and what really just blows the mind is this - the letter "I" is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "J". Japheth (Hebrew patriarch) and Iapetus (Greek god of mankind) are essentially the same name. So allow for no vowels in ancient Hebrew and change the "I" in Ida to a Hebrew "J" and what do you get? ... J-D-A. Judah!!!

The Templars and the Cathar crusaders of France had more in common with Kabbalah than with Chrisitanity, just as the Sabbeans had more in common with Kabbalah than with Judeaism. That's why I shake my head when people go on about a "Jewish conspiracy". To the extent that elite Kabbalists have hidden behind and/or hijacked Judaism that might be true, but the same is true for the Kabbalist crusader knights, the Templars, the Normans who conquered England and all their ancestors who conquered America (Roosevelt, Cabot, Russell, Peabody, Brown, Astor, Lovett, Root, Low ... ), as well as the Germanic Holy Roman Emperors who were kin to the Rus rulers of Ukraine, the Magyar/Hun rulers of Hungary, and the Khazar and Hunnic khans kings and kagans whose blood flowed in them all.

What did all these people in the histories of our ruling elite have in common? They were all Kabbalist Hebrews - that doesn't mean they were Jewish, Judaism is a subset of the Hebrews, just as are the Trojans, the Spartans, the Franks, the Vikings, and maybe even the Huns and Khazars.

I also suspect that Sarah (Sarai) the wife of Abraham, who looks like a king of Ugarit and a Kabbalah magi priest, was the sister of the Pharaoh - part of the reason Egyptian mythology is so prevalent in the culture of the elite and Freemasonry. (As well as the reverse side of the US 1 dollar bill.)

Anyway, the trend in films to put male comedy stars in dresses and flood the media with homosexual themes, the anti-heterosexual bias Quest talks about, etc., is correctly traceable to the Troad cults of Kybele, Sabazios and Dionysis and, originally, to the erotic themes in Kabbalah in which both male and female aspects of god are represented, and the concept that the union of the dualistic male and female aspects is the source of creation. IMO. WHY they promote and parade this stuff I have no idea. I wish they'd just keep it to themselves and do what they do at Bohemian Grove. LoL.

Thanks, Sanders, and thanks for fleshing this out. The more you follow this stuff, I believe one instinctivly picks up what going on, almost by osmosis. When you take into consideration Masonic ritual, Bohemiam Grove and the absolute sadistic, S&M-like treatment of the Palestinians, Iraqis and Afghanis, not to mention the nuking of Nagasaki, Heroshima and the 60 million genocided in the Bolshevik Genocide, one is left thinking that those running things operate on a very primitive plane and most societies have LONG surpassed them in emotional development. It is almost as if the world progressed and the powers that be stepped BACKWARD due to incest, nepotiosm, marrying sisters, brothers, cousins and only those with similar philosophies - all in order to keep power "in the family", so to speak. This tradition guarantees insanity.



I never knew that, but it makes sense!



Again, quite interesting.



Wow.



This leads to an onvious question, who exactly is calling the shots regarding stuff like pushing the homosexual issue? Is it someone like, for lack of a better term, a sort of Kaballah "high preist"? This stuff would of course have to be coordinated with financial dealings\scams, false-flag terror attacks and actual wars. I can almost imagine a room (what country would this room be located?) where Evelyn Rothschild, The queen of Britain and some other of old Europen elite family representatives would meet to discuss current stautus and future strategy. Could you elucidate a bit more, Sanders?



In fairness to the "Jewish conspiracy" claim, people are talking about what they have seen with their own eyes. They are talking about the Federal Reserve, the Lavon Affair, the USS Liberty Massacre, the King David Hotel bombing, the JFK assasination the Jewish (for the most part) Bolsheviks who oversaw the slaughters of 60 million (mostly Christian) Eastern Europens and Russians, as well as 911 itself. Whereas there may be and probably are people pulling strings from behind the scenes, the people who carried out these attocities are every bit guilty as the conspirators and should not be overlooked. Especially given they actually pulled the trigger on these events and used THEIR MEDIA to cover it up as well as engineer even more wars. And what gets thrown at honest investigators who are trying to look at every possible angle? They are called "anti-semites". Now, this may be part of the NWO plan, in fact I would say it is - to make every investigator looking into 911, Obama's legitamcy, pushing of homosexuality look racist, yes, it's all by design but, if certain folk don't want to be implicated they should stay clear of crminal acts and actrocities. Now, imagine the survivors of the USS Liberty or 911 1st responders questioning the role of Israel. Are they racist or "jewish conspiracy nuts" for not first considering a hidden hand? If I was on the USS Liberty I would address the obvious 1st and deal with the possibly unprovable (Freemasons, Kabballists, Knights Templar) later. But yes, I would also want to apprehend the "brains" as well.

And I, in fairness to the "Jewish conspiracy" claim, will concede that Kabbalah lies at the roots of Judaism and that many Jews study Kabbalah. But what we see with our own eyes is what they allow us to see. What's going on behind the scenes, what is being manifested in the occupied territories in Israel, and the roots of the homo-erotic trend we see in the US media are the work of Kabbalists and the extent that they have hijacked traditional Judaism. Judaism was a revolt against the pagan sects of Canaan - traditionally it shuns dualism and blood sacrifice and magic, the cornerstones of Kabbalah. When people start saying it's all a "Kabbalist conspiracy" I'll jump right on board. But until people can get up to speed and differentiate between Judaism and Kabbalistic cults and their influence, I'll continue to cry foul.

In my above post, I listed a bunch of family names ... Roosevelt, Cabot, Russell, Peabody, Brown, Astor, Lovett, Root, Low. (George Peabody, by the way, was the founder of the Morgan banking empire.) All of these families got rich trading opium or slaves, which is curious because the British and Dutch East India companies, Freemason-led companies who dominated these markets, supposedly protected their monopolies with the force of cannon. Obviously, these families, particularly the Russell family who made a fortune in China and whose opium business was run by FDR's grandfather, were allowed to participate in the plundering of the east and the trading of slaves. A look into the histories of these families tells us why - they ALL have an ancestor who fought alongside William the Conqueror at the battle of Hastings and were granted lands in England for their service. All of them!

You have to then look at the crusader knights who led the first crusade - they were almost all Nomans or French Cathars. What did they have in common? Trojan roots, Kabbalistic dualistic beliefs, "dragon" roots. Who were the Templars? Some say they were Norman, some say they practiced Catharism, or something like it. How about both?

Templars, Rosicrucians, Cathars, Illuminati, Freemasons, all of them were influenced by Kabbalah and were knee-jerk reactions to the power of Catholic Rome. No one can see this, because the Crusades were initiated by the pope,the same pope (Innocent II) who created the Templar order. This paradox drove me nuts forever until I figured out that Innocent II was a mole, he was elevated to the papacy by Bernard Clairveaux, the patriarch of the Templars. Look at the name Clairveax .... "Clair" is the name of the decendant family of Rollo the Viking, i.e. St. Clair, Sinclair (!!!).

Anyway, the knights of the first crusade were about as Catholic as I am Jewish. They wanted to get at Solomon's temple to see what they could find there - Solomon was deep into Kabbalah and magic. That thing they call the Seal of Solomon? That's the symbol of dualism, of the inter-connectedness of male and female, order and chaos, good and evil. The integration of these dualistic concepts is the power of creation. That's what they believe. Order out of Chaos, i.e. 9/11, is creation. Attis whacking off his genitals is the merging of male and female, i.e. creation, hence the resurrection myth exemplified in the "evergreen" pine tree. Did I mention that 'Pinocchio' means "pine-nut", or that the Disney family is also Norman and has a descendant who fought on the battlefield of Hastings?

Do non-Kabblist Jews know what Kabbalah is all about? No, it's all secret. Same with the cults of Troad, from whose kings supposedly the rulers of the Franks and Vikings descend. It was all secret. We know that the cults of Troad had a pantheon of gods and goddesses, called the 'Kabeiroi', but we have no idea who these gods and goddesses were, because it was all secret, hence "mystery religion".

Anyway, the Vikings and the Franks seem to be Trojans, who seem to have been cousins of the Israelites. What links them is an Egyptian and Canaanite history and Kabbalah-rooted beliefs . Judaism is an offshoot of this culture, which rebelled against pagan beliefs but has, in recent times, been hijacked, IMO. The fact that the Seal of Solomon (Star of David/Magan David) is the current accepted symbol of Judaism is prima-facie evidence that I am right. That's a pagan symbol, the interlocked triangles are the purest symbol of dualism.

Sanders,

That was so good, I had to save and print your last two posts.

You are “Spot” on. Great conclusion...

Quest, I have no frikken idea. But I was listening to an interview with "Svali", who claimed to have escaped from what internet conspiracy theorists call the "Illuminati".

She calls it "the family", or "the Order". And in her only audio-taped interview a caller asks about the conquering wind of "Moriah". Svali replies, (I'm paraphrasing but this is surely almost exactly what she said....) "I don't know what you're referring to, but 'Moriah' is our name".

Moriah, for those who aren't aware, is the name of the hill in Jerusalem Solomon's Temple was supposedly built on.

I don't know if that is illuminating in any way, but I suspect there's a whole lot we don't know, and an under-culture we can't see who are pushing society in these directions. If Svali is for real, we should all stop referring to them as the "Illuninati" and use their own term - Moriah.

I didn't think it was that good - but, coming from someone who is way over my head much of the time, I do appreciate it.

The real point is that you are starting to boil things down and condensing them into one path…

Trojans being Vikings is SUPER



The “J” and “I” thing is dead on too. Old Roman maps do not use “J”’s. Modern “J”’s are “I”’s with tails.

Yeah, this is a topic I like discussing as well. We see a lot of bit players, henchman and foot soldiers but we still don't know exactly who is behind the curtain pulling the strings.

Josephus in his writings relayed the contents of a letter from the king of Sparta to Onius, king of the Isralites where the Spartan king talks about their "common heritage". The letter is described as having a seal featuring a dragon and an eagle.

Some say Dardanus was Darda, son of Zerah son of Judah. Maybe Darda's brother Calcol named Colchis???

Zerah (the brother of Judah's other son Perez), and his descendants disappear from the bible after a brief mention. Why? Could it be that this was the Hebrew account of Danaus and Cadmus of Greek myth, that Zerah and his descendants left Egynt and crossed the Mediterranean, headed for Greece, never to be heard from (in the Hebrew accounts) again?

Sanders, have you considering drawing up an chronological, organizational chart, or "family tree" including coutries of origin so the we can see how the different sects spawned new ones through the ages? Does such a thing already exist? That would go a long way showing how we've come to come to present time.

I’m game if Sanders is but someone has to re-=title this thread and perhaps move it!

If this is your play ground…Rome should be near the core...As it will play out in the overall show...

Admins/mods, can someone please spilt this thread and move it to it's proper location?

Thanks!

Quest,

I would recommend printing the map and starting a new file.

This is going to go “Nuts”.

Ha ha ha Sanders

OK I think I managed to split it OK - picked an arbitrary title, elreb will be able to change it if desired.

KP - still a mod newbie but trying hard.

Thanks, KP!

Thanks, KP!

Sure, I've thought about it, I've even made some futile attempts. But it's nearly impossible ...
elreb's map there should give you an idea of how complex it is. I just don't know enough.

All those names there, those are mostly tribes that fanned out from Troad after the fall of Troy. There's a post in my dragon thread about Lugii - there is a Lugii tribe in Scotland as well, Pollack family comes from the Lugii - the tribe is probably rooted in Lydia and connected to the people who founded Liguria in Italy. These were a "boar" peoples and you can follow them around by looking for boars on family crests. That's just one name. Daci, that's a dragon term - Thracians. The Suebi named Swabia. I know almost nothing about them. The Venedi named Veneto in northern Italy, and they pop up later in Brittany. Probably the same as the Heneti and rooted in Paphlagonia. How'd they wind up in Russia on that map, and what became of them? I don't know. Its super complicated, a giant puzzle all convoluted with myths and spotty accounts and giant holes. When you try to go back to biblical times it gets even worse.

However, by looking at little pieces of the puzzle, you start to get a sense of it in a general way. So it's not totally an exercise in futility, and it's pretty interesting and enjoyable when you make discoveries. But to try to do something comprehensive, that'd be tough.

It strikes me that the more you know on this topic (or rather the more than Sanders knows), the more he realises he doesn't know. Since the Dragon thread I've always meant to ask how cast-iron are the family links between the families at the Battle of Hastings and the major family names of recent history? Maybe I never read the thread in enough detail (I am a dipper) but could it be argued that it is just coincidence?

I don't think it's coincidence. These Norman families all received lands in England and won a seat at the table. They've had money and power ever since, and it can't be just an accident that so many influential wealthy Americans are in this club. As for how iron-clad the family connections are, I'm just going by what is written about the histories of those families at houseofnames.com.

Again, lots of this is speculative - but it's the sheer number of links that paints a sort of general picture - IMO.

Don't know if this is a translation from a genuine document.

Would be rather interesting if it was, though!

Does anyone know about its origin?



THE CATHAR PROPHECY OF 1244.

It has no fabric, only understanding.
It has no membership, save those who know they belong.
It has no rivals, because it is non-competitive.
It has no ambition, and only seeks to serve.
It is not only of itself, because it seeks to enrich all groups and religions.
It knows no boundaries, for boundaries are unloving.
There is no walk of Life or nationality that is a barrier: those who are, know.

It acknowledges all great teachers of all ages, who have shown the Truth of Love.
Those who participate, practice the Truth of Love.
It seeks not to teach, but to be: and by being, to enrich.
It recognizes the whole planet as a Being, of which we are part.
It recognizes that the time has come for the supreme transmutation, the ultimate
alchemical act of conscious change of the ego into a voluntary return to the Whole.
It does not proclaim itself with a loud voice, but in the subtle realms of loving.
It salutes all those in the past who blazoned the path, but have paid the price.

It admits of no hierarchy or structure, for no one is greater than the other.
Its members shall know each other by their deeds, and being, and by the eyes.
And by no other outward sign save the fraternal embrace.
They will dedicate their lives to the silent loving of their neighbour, the environment
and the planet, whilst carrying out their tasks however exalted or humble.
It recognizes the supremacy of the great idea, which may only be accomplished
if the human race practices the supremacy of Love.
It has no reward to offer, either here or in the hereafter; save that ineffable joy
of being and loving.

Each shall seek to advance the cause of understanding, doing good by stealth and
teaching only by example.
They shall heal their neighbour, their community and our planet.
They shall know no fear and feel no shame; and their witness shall prevail over all
odds.
It has no secrets, no arcanum, no initiation, save that of true understanding of the
power of Love.
And that, if we want it to be so, the world will change, but only if we change ourselves
first.

Those who belong, belong; - they belong to the church of Love.




Cheers

KP, I got curious after your post and did a little digging. the Russells can actually be traced back to Hastings and Normandy, to a Hugh de Rossel whose name appears on a charter for the Abbaye des Dames at Caen, an Abbey founded by Duke William of Normandy near the time of the Conquest. Hugh's son is assumed, and given the name Hugh as was the custom in heraldry when records were missing - you'll see on genealogy lists a question mark after names sometimes, this is what that indicates - there's a link missing.

JDA site; Hugh(?) de Rozel
http://fabpedigree.com/s096/f196968.htm

Here you can see in the 17th century the Russells link up with the Clintons
http://fabpedigree.com/s016/f378381.htm

Who link with the Morgans
http://fabpedigree.com/s036/f108197.htm

And trace eventually back to William de Tankerville, who (probably) fought with William the Conqueror.
http://fabpedigree.com/s076/f649949.htm

The Russells also link up with the Spencer and Churchill line in several places, as do the Stewarts.
From Winston Churchill going backward -
(3 Stewart marraiges on this page and one Russell)
http://fabpedigree.com/s030/f165481.htm

Charles Spencer, Prime Minister of England had a Russell for a grandmother -
http://fabpedigree.com/s092/f297297.htm

The Spencers trace back paternally to Roger II Montgomery, who fought at Hastings.
http://fabpedigree.com/s092/f751093.htm
http://fabpedigree.com/s004/f009072.htm

Churchill is another Norman line with an ancestor who fought at Hastings
http://www.houseofnames.com/fc.asp?sId=&s=churchill

That's all just playing around with the Russell line for a few minutes. By the way, some of this genealogy might be spotty and, while I like the JDA site it can be peculiar sometimes and is better not to over-trust, these families held titles and lands, and the names of landowners were all recorded in the Domesday book, commissioned by William the Conqueror.

Hope that helps ...

Somebody "dreamed" it in 1978 while laying in a meadow in french Cathar country.

http://www.fountain-international.org/origins/cathar.htm

Maps, charts and timetables are items that require updating…so I un-hinged the following page that we can use for that purpose or whatever.

http://www.suneagle1.com/suneagle4.htm

It is also easier for me to post pictures and Google earth…

Gall...Gall...Gall...

Gallia was Celtica...it all adds up...


Not to be a plot spoiler but I have a funny feeling that “Belus” the son of Poseidon was none other than “Belgae” from Gallia Belgica, otherwise known as Belgium!

Also keep an eye on the Redones or Rhedones an ancient tribe of Gaul.

Thanks for the help, Sanders.

Should have thought about the 'search' meself,
but blames it on the extra glass of red!

Nice "dreaming" though.

Cheers

No "Dog Star" dates are used in the following...making this older than cardboard Egypt.

Celtica = Gallia

Originating around 2800 BC, as the "Beaker People" they were considered to have been very mobile and warlike folk, who occupied themselves with raising animals and conducting trade. In some discussions they were described as itinerant traders who spread the knowledge of metallurgy from western to central Europe. Their name derives from a specific form of ceramic vessel, a decorated, thin-walled, handle-less drinking cup known as a bell beaker.

In all the places where Bell Beakers appear we also see the development of metallurgy. This consisted of the working of copper and gold, where most of the objects are made from hammered sheet metal (lunulae, earrings, pins) or simple casting methods (daggers, flat axe heads, Palmela points, halberds). From a typological viewpoint one can speak of a Bell Beaker style that has a uniform character that takes in the whole of the Bell Beaker domain—a rather large area. This was the oldest single-origin style for metal objects in Europe. In addition to the manufactured objects, we are also familiar with the tools used for metalworking. These are of the "smithy" type, mainly stone anvils of various sizes and chiseling tools. Bell Beakers represent a breakthrough where the majority of European societies adapted to the widespread use of metal. Thus began an era where metal objects were always present in society, along with the techniques for working the material.

Migration did occur within the Bell Beaker domain. A good example of this is the rich burial of a man in Amesbury (Amesbury Archer 2300 BC), not far from Stonehenge in southern England. His grave had the greatest number of artifacts ever found in a British Bronze Age burial. Among those discovered were: Five funerary pots of the type associated with the "Beaker culture"; three tiny copper knives, 16 barbed flint arrowheads; a kit of flint-knapping and metalworking tools, including cushion stones that functioned as a kind of portable anvil and that suggests he was a coppersmith; and some boar's tusks. On his forearm was a black Stone wrist-guard. A similar red wrist-guard was by his knees. With the second wrist-guard was a shale belt ring and a pair of gold hair ornaments (the earliest gold objects ever found in England) On the basis of isotope testing of the man's teeth, archaeologists concluded that he had spent his youth in the Alpine regions of central Europe, while his son, buried nearby, was a native Briton.

A review of radiocarbon dates for Bell Beaker across Europe found that some of the earliest were found in Portugal (Gallaecia), where the range from Castro Zambujal and Cerro de la Virgen ran between 2900 BC and 2500 BC, in contrast to the rather later range for Andalusia, Spain (between 2500BC to 2200 BC). Castro Zambujal was less than 40 miles from a future Phoenician colony.

Another place to look at is Brittany, France: the "core area" of ancient megalithic culture (structures made of large stones) and their construction and the home of the seafaring Celtic "Veneti" people.

Veneti warships were sailing ships specifically designed to ply the waters of the North Sea and the English channel. Veneti ships were impervious to running aground because of their heavy timber construction, which also made them impervious to ramming. The Veneti were expert seamen who had very different fighting tactics.

Interestingly enough, these ships were designed more along the lines of Noah and his Ark.



Check this out too: For over 1300-years prior to the Roman invasion of Britain, the Celtic/ Phoenician ships had plied trade routes throughout the Mediterranean and Atlantic.

http://www.celticnz.co.nz/Avebury/Avebury%201.htm

There's a definite Italy - Brittany - Venedi connection. The roots go back to Paphlagonia (northern Anatolia). Veneti = Heneti.

A people called the Enetoi (Eneti) is mentioned by Homer in the Iliad, as inhabiting Paphlagonia on the southern coast of the Black Sea in the time of the Trojan War.

The Veneti (also called Heneti) (Paleoveneti) were an ancient people who inhabited north-eastern Italy (600 BC), in an area corresponding to the modern-day region of the Veneto. Venice = Venetian

Believed to be related to the Gaulish Veneti, a Celtic tribe formerly living on the coast of Brittany.

Krahe thought that not only the name of the Illyrian and Adriatic Enetoi peoples are the same[2] Homer mentions a people in Asia Minor, the Paphlagonians, as from the Enetai province,[3] and a few hundred years later Herodotus refers to the Enetoi twice, once as Illyrian[4] and again as the occupants of the Adriatic sea[5] Krahe thought that the name of the Illyrian and Adriatic Enetos peoples are the same, and if Adriatic Enetoi were Adriatic Veneti (Venets) and Venets were the Vistula Veneti (Veneds) mentioned in other sources then Illyrians and Veneds were the same people.

The historical beginning of the peoples we later know as Illyrians is placed at approximately 1000 BC.

One version has parents Polyphemus and Galatea that give birth to Celtus, Galas, and Illyrius. Illyrius had multiple sons (Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas and Perrhabeus) and daughters (Partho, Daortho, Dassaro and others)

No matter how hard I try…I just cannot get Egypt any older than 1591 BC.

Herodotus said that Homer lived 400 Greek years before his own time (450 BC) which would be 750 BC putting the Trojan War between 884-800 BC.

Note the relationship between Tyndareus and Tyrians and Tyre…

Min = 1st king of Egypt 1591 BC
Moris
Sesostris = Ships of War, settled Colchis (1000 BC)
Pheros

Proteus = Helen daughter of Tyndareus dwelt with Proteus (884 BC)
= built the Camp of Tyrians or enclosure of Phoenicians of Tyre (850 BC)
= (Could Tyrus be Tyndareus?)

Rhampsinitos = traveled to Hades
Cheops = 800 BC pyramid engineered by Phoenicians from Tyre
Chephren = pyramid
Mykerinos = pyramid, golden cow,
Asychis =
Anysis = attacked by Sabacos the Ethiopian

Sethos = the priest of Hephaistos (Ptah), defeated Sennacherib (700 BC) at Pelusuim

12 Kings…no leader (680 BC)

Psammetichos = became king with help of Ionians and Carians,
Necos = 672-664 BC
Psammis =
Apries = 589-570 BC
Ahmose II = 570-526 BC (Ramses the Great)

Sanders…sometime I think you are sending me embedded messages.

After the capture of Troy a combined force of Enetians (Heneti) who had been driven from Paphlagonia (Black Sea) and surviving Trojans under Antenor, sailed to the Venice, Italy area of the Adriatic Sea and defeated the Euganie all the way to the Alps. (850 BC?)

Now I must wonder at the connection between a “Venetian” and a “Pho-enician” once you extract “Enetian”.



Hint: Canaan fathered the Phoenicians through his son Sidon, and the Hittites (Heneti) through his son Heth.

Not intentionally.

Brilliant.

If one can then imagine that there is no big difference between Venedi and Vanir ... then BOOOM! The Vikings were Phoenetians - which one expects anyway, since the boats they made were almost identical. In fact, I suspect that Danir, Tuatha de Danaan and Danite are also variations - and when you've connected those "Dan" peoples to the (V/H)eneti, then it makes more sense that the Tribe of Dan abandoned their original lands near Judah and went up and conquered Laish just south of Mt. Hermon in Phoenician territory - and, that the Phoenicians let them!

There's a link somewhere in this thread about clues to Phoenician presence in southwestern England, i.e. Cornwall and Devon. The area was once called Danmoni (mines of Dan), and supposedly (a little over) 3 thousand years ago a peoples from the Aegean(?) called the Tuatha de Danaan arrived in Ireland, burned their ships and stayed. If this Veneti/Heneti/Vanir/Danir/Dan correlation holds any water, then this puts these people in Paphlagonia during the time of the Trojan war.

That is significant because Paphlagonia was bordered on the east by the Halys river, which I strongly suspect is what named the Halybes/Chalybes of Colchis. The Halybes were so good at smelting bronze and making weapons that the Greeks thought they invented metallurgy, and their fame in this respect is reflected in the name of King Arthur's sword, Ex-Caliber, named for the the Exe river in Cornwall and the Chalybe/Halybe of Colchis. I always wondered if the Halybes were somehow connected to the Phoenicians or whatever "Dan" tribe who apparently sailed to Britain to obtain tin for their bronze, or if some of them actually migrated to Britain or not?

There are other connections, the Kybele-worshipping Corybantes of Phrygia are reported by the Greeks to have also inhabited Colchis, and the myths have them being the half-brothers of Aeetes King of Cholchis. "Aeetes" evokes Attis. The Dactyls, Kouretes and Corybantes all seem to be the same people (or close cousins) and are said to have arrived in Anatolia from Crete - Crete was a major Phoenician trading port. Then I've got an old map of Mesopotamia that shows "Chalybonitis" between Subartu (Sophia) and Ugarit - Phoenician country. The Orontes river flows through here, and the Bagratids of Georgia are from the Orontes branch of rulers. It was in Georgia/Colchis of course that the myth of St. George the dragon slayer originated, the mythical saint who named the Templar red cross and the flag of England.

This chapter of Ladon-Gog flushes out these connections and then some -
http://www.tribwatch.com/kizzuwatna.htm

I have to look thru my files and see if I can find a connection from Venedi/Vanir to Venus and also to Van, Turkey, Lake Van and the kingdom of Van, which are about 260 miles SE of Cholchis.



I believe that the Citadel of Van was the one Cyrus the Great built.

According to Xenophon we have a confirmed date during the time of Cyaxares where Cyrus built a Fort between the Chaldeans and the Armenians. (Tigranes and Sabaris) (550 BC)

One tribe was the Nairi which could relate to the Vanir or Danir?

The “Nairi-Urartu-Van” kingdom of 858-735 BC is the “Real” Hittite kingdom and are related to the Ashkenaz Jews.

Later I will connect King Arames of Uratu. He may be Arsames of Persia, son of Ariaramnes

I believe it was “Menua” who took Khatte. (holy smokes)

In the following please note: “Ar”, “Sar”, “Dan”, “Ur”,

In the study of the history of the Elite, I believe Abram (Abraham) and Sarai (Sarah) are key figures. Abram and his father Terah have left Ur of Kaśdim for the city of Harran (Harranu) in Aram-Naharaim. My personal opinion is that Urfa (Edessa) is Ur Kasdim.

Sacked by Ashur-Dan in 763 BCE, Harran was restored under the Assyrian ruler Sargon I (722-705 BC) and was the home town of the moon god Sin and the last hold out of “Nabonidus” (556-539 BC-where his mother was a priestess) during the conquest of Babylon by Cyrus the Great.

"As for the gods of Sumer and Akkad which Nabonidus, to the wrath of the lord of the gods, brought to Babylon, at the command of Marduk, the great lord, I (Cyrus) caused them to dwell in peace in their sanctuaries, (in) pleasing dwellings. May all the gods I brought (back) to their sanctuaries plead daily before Bel and Nabu for the lengthening of my days, may they intercede favorably on my behalf."
—Cyrus Cylinder, 30-34


If you recall, Harran was the same town that Jacob (the brother of the red-haired Esau) married his first cousins, Rachel and Leah. These were Aramean people of Aram-Nahrin aka Pad-dan Aram or Chaldeans. (Nihriya?)

It is important not to confuse “Armenians” with “Arameans”, though they were neighbours. Armenians were the Nairi or “Ur-artean” living in an area corresponding to modern Van whose capital was first Arzashkun before being moved to Tushpa. (900-600 BC)

Assyrian inscriptions of Shalmaneser first mention Uruartri as one of the states of Nairi.

Arames or Aramu or Arame (ruled 858–844 BC) was the first known king of Urartu.


This “Arames” person could very well be the “Abram” who subdued the invading force from Mesopotamia, led by Chedorlaomer, king of Elam.


Living at the time of Shalmaneser II, Arames united the Nairi tribe against the threat of the Assyrian Empire. His capital at Arzashkun and Sugunia (the stronghold of Aram) were captured by Shalmaneser.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ane/rp/rp204/rp20413.htm

Van Citadel began construction by Sarduri I, the Urartian King 844-828 BC. 'King of the Four Quarters
Next: Ishpuini 828-810 BC "King of the Universe"
Next: Menua 810-785 BC
Next: Argishti I 785-763 BC founded the Erebuni Fortress

Sarduri II Urartian King 764-735 BC. The Urartian Kingdom was at its peak during his reign. He succeeded his father Argishti I to the throne.

Sarduri II was so confident in his power that he erected a massive wall at Tushpa (Van) with the following inscription:

"The magnificent king, the mighty king, king of the universe, king of the land of Nairi, a king having none equal to him, a shepherd to be wondered at, fearing no battle, a king who humbled those who would not submit to his authority."

Sarduri II can be none other than Sargon II ( Sharru-kinu ("true king") who reigned( 722 – 705 BC) as an Assyrian king. Sargon II was co-regent with Shalmaneser in 722 BC, and became the sole ruler of the kingdom of Assyria in 722 BC after the death of Shalmaneser of whom he was not related.

You may remember Shalmaneser as the one who deported the 10 lost tribes of Israel from Egypt to Assyria.

After reaching Lake Van, Sargon/Sarduri left Urartu via Uaiaish. In Hubushkia he received the tribute of the "Nairi" lands. 714 BC

Somewhere in the mix of these things there was Teispes the father of Cyrus I and Ariaramnes, who between 675-640 BC freed himself from Median supremacy and expanded his small kingdom of Anshan. (Aswan?)

Teispes may connect to the Araratian storm god Tešup-Theispas where one of his greatest acts was the slaying of the dragon Illuyanka.

The Urartu grew weaker and dependent on Assyria & referring to the Assyrian king as his "father" by Sardur III (645-635 BC).

Both Harran and Urartu were besieged and conquered by Nabopolassar of Babylon and his Median and Scythian allies in 608 BC. Harran became part of the Babylonian Empire after the fall of Assyria.

Xenophon states that Armenia, was not conquered until the reign of Median king Astyages (585 - 550 BC).

The region came under the control of the Persians in 550 BC when Tigranes joined forces with Cyrus the Great.

Sanders, after listening to the following audifile I was absolutely struck on how plugged in the Rothschilds were in all of this from the beginning. The Rothschilds are much more than simply "bankers" but also the creators of many businesses. I found these links at Iamthewiness.com

I hope all of you will take the time to listen to this stuff as you will be awed. Thie first two audiofiles alone goes a long way to flesh out elite business networking and explain much of what is going on today.

http://iamthewitness.com/audiobooks/02)%20...001-08-2010.mp3

http://iamthewitness.com/audiobooks/02)%20....02-08-2010.mp3

http://iamthewitness.com/audiobooks/02)%20...003-08-2010.mp3

http://iamthewitness.com/audiobooks/02)%20...004-08-2010.mp3

Quest, I'll say right off that I haven't listened to any of that yet. In all honesty I am wary of iamthewitness (Daryl Smith). But I'm sure what I will point out is not found in any of those links.

The Rothschild family name is Bauer. Bauer, Bayer and Bower are all the same family line - the word is Hunnic (which could include Magyar, Khazar, Kabar,or any of the many nomadic Asian tribes?). The state of Bavaria is tied to these names and this heritage.

In the Greek myths the Trojan tribes which lived around the Black Sea were all associated with Apollo and Artemis, and with "wolves and boars". This is referenced in many myths, one being the myth of the Calydonian Boar hunt (in which Artemis kills a boar) which documents the connection between these Black Sea peoples and Scotland, which was called Calydonia by the Romans. Note that the Bower family name is Scottish. The "5 arrows" of the myth found in the 'Secret History of the Mongols' is displayed on the Rothschild bank logo. The Mogols, the Huns, the Xiong-nu as the Chinese called them - these are all the same people and their roots are in north-western Mesopotamia and the pagan northern Levant. That's why everywhere the "Huns" went they left behind "Uygur" peoples and their language is called Ugaric. This all comes, I believe, from Ugarit, the ancient city of the north Levant near Mt. Hazzi (called Mt. Zephur in the bible). Ugarit is super ancient - and Abraham, some believe, as do I, was a king of Ugarit.

In the 9th century there was an important Magyar/Kabar/Hun migration from Khazaria into what is now Hungary, and from there "Hun" blood flowed into the other royal houses of Europe. I believe and assume that Bavaria was an outgrowth of this migration (sorry I don't have much to back up my assumtions with), and George son of King Andrew accompanied Margaret (daughter of the English heir to the throne) to Scotland. George's decendents are the Drummonds, and the Drummonds were the exchequers of the English treasury during the American Revolutionary war. The money they dolled out for Hessian mercenaries (rented from Hesse Kassel) found its way into Mayer Amschell Rothschild's pocket, which his son's used to finance the Rothschild banking empire. You can get totally lost in the details of how this occurred, but it did happen, the money originated with the Drummond control of the English treasury and ended with the Rothschilds being the most powerful banking family in Europe. I tend to focus on the Hungary connection, and I also believe that the Cross of St. Andrew (Scottish flag) and the Cross of St. George (English flag) were actually named for the Hungarian king Andrew and his son George.

But you won't get any closer to the truth than that IMO, the Rothschild lineage is a complete mystery. All we have to go on is the 'Bauer' name, the "5 arrows" myth, and their significance with regard to Hungary and the Huns.

I could be completely off of my rocker, but the key, I believe, to understanding why and how the roots of the Rothschilds mesh with the rest of the global Elite is in their common northern Levant heritage - NOT in any common "Jewish" heritage. The footprint of the elite, everywhere you look, is dualist, Kabbalist, not "Jewish". In fact, I believe that "Jews" are the odd man out. They have little to do with "Moriah" (Illuminati?) but the religion has been hijacked to drive a wedge into the Muslim world where "Usury" is still largely banned. By extension, Zionism is just another "ism" which which conflict is created. Do the people really in charge really want to take over the Holy Land for "spiritual" reasons? Maybe - but if they do they are letting the Jews do the work for them.

At the risk of opening myself up to accusations of being a "kook", I'll leave my post as it is for Quest to read and ponder.

Sanders in a hat…if you’re a “Kook”…Boy howdy…what does that make me?

According to the 10 Lost Tribes theory, only members from the tribe of Judah are “Jews”.

The real issue would be the House of Joseph or House of David
or House of Eber which is Hebrew = Obri of Abraham, where you can pick up Saudi Kings.

Abrams life

Abram leaves Harran with a small army of family members due to famine and travels to the house of Phroe.

Now, on account of a revolt of the Kings of Sodom and Gomorrha and other kings from Chedorlamer King of Elam, after they had served him twelve years, he in the fourteenth year made war upon them with his allies, Tidal king of Guim, Amraphel King of Shinar, and Arioch King of Pontus. The King of Elam was victorious, and had already reached Dan with Lot a prisoner and laden with spoil, when he was overtaken by Abram.

And he divided himself against them, he and his servants, by night, and smote them, and pursued them unto Hobah, which [is] on the left hand (north) of Damascus.

With 318 men of his household, the patriarch surprises, attacks, and defeats Chedorlamer, he retakes Lot and the spoil, and returns in triumph. On his way home, he is met by Melchisedech, king of Salem who brings forth bread and wine, and blesses him. (Please do NOT assume they were in Jerusalem)

There is also Eliezer of Damascus son of Nimrod and head of the patriarch Abraham's household mentioned in the Book of Genesis (15:2).

Now let us look at the Battle of Qarqar, north of Damascus

Shalmaneser III (Šulmānu-ašarēdu, "the god Shulmanu is pre-eminent") was king of Assyria (859 BC-824 BC)

Aramu or Arame (ruled 858–844 BC) was the first known king of Urartu lived at the time of Shalmaneser III, Aram united the Nairi tribe against the threat of the Assyrian Empire. His capital at Arzashkun was captured by Shalmaneser. (For all we know, Arzashkun could have been Ur Kasdim)

Arame has been suggested as the prototype of both “Aram and Ara” the Beautiful. His successor was Lutipri (For the record Abrams nephew Lot is spelled = “Lut”)

Shalmaneser’s long reign was a constant series of campaigns against the eastern tribes, the Babylonians, the nations of Mesopotamia and Syria, as well as Kizzuwadna and Urartu. His armies penetrated to Lake Van and the Taurus Mountains; the Hittites of Carchemish were compelled to pay tribute, and the kingdoms of Hamath and Aram Damascus were subdued.

In 853 BC a coalition which was formed by the kingdoms of Egypt, Hamath, Arvad, the Ammonites, and other neighboring states, under the leadership of king Hadad-ezer of Damascus, defeated the Assyrian king at Battle of Qarqar. Other battles soon followed in 849 BC and 846 BC.

A success like this on Abrams part would earn him position in these southern kingdoms.

His land grant also required allegiance to a new god or two.

“Abrm” changed to “Abrem” and “Shri” changed to “Shre” which is basically “Re” the Sun god; as opposed to “Sin” the Moon god.

Magically when Joseph is born, his father Jacob takes the second name = “Yisrael” adding “Ra as god” into the mix.

SUPER CLUE

The title “Son of the Sun” is written as "Sa-Ra". The female form is Sarah as in the wife of Abraham



Funny but “Ar” or “Ara” of Armenia is the sun god equal to the Egyptian “Ra”...or...aRa...

It has been shown by some Orientalist-Armenologists in a number of quotations of mythological and historical data that the native people of the Armenian Highland and the neighboring regions of Asia Minor had, in the earlier periods of paganism, a deity whom they called AR or ARA.

In the primitive hunting stage of the life of these natives, the god ARA possesed animal-vegetal charactheristics. Later, with the beginning of agriculture, he acquired a vegetal-solar nature and with the development of irrigation in agriculture and the consolidation of statehood, he became a great war-god and was identified with the sun.

This process of change from primitive to complex characteristics, as manifested in the nature of AR(or ARA), is by no means unique in the mythological history of mankind. It has had its close parallels. For example, the god Assur,in the earliest periods of the founding of the city of Assur, had a vegetal (peaceful) nature, but later on, when Assyria became a mighty empire by bloody expeditions, it turned into a fearsome deity and was identified also with sun.

Research has revealed that in the remote past AR (or ARA) was the principal national deity of the Armen people. H.Matikian, N.Adonts, M.Abeghian, G.Ghapantsian, and ohter Armenologists accept that ARA was the native deity of the Armenians.

The known Orientalist A.H.Sayce states that AR was the sun-god of the Armenians. In his words:"...it is better to suppose that ER,or ARA,
was an Armenian name for the Sun-god, which in later times was confounded with Arios (Nergal)of Ktesias."

In this connection H. Matikian writes: "To study ARA the Beautiful means to make inroads into the obscure centuries of the origin of the Armenian people and to examine them."


The word Ar-ma-ni is a compound noun, where the first component Ar is none other than the name of the natioanal sun-god of the Armens,-AR- and the second component -ma-(me a varient) signifies 'build, make, beget, offspring, son'. Ma- with this meaning was known to many peoples of the Near East in antiquity.


The goddess of birth and fertility, so well known in Asia Minor, was called by this very same name-Ma.(Ma also occurs in its reduplicated from -Mama or Mami in Assyro-Babylonian inscriptions). This root-word (and also its variant -me) is found also in Sumerian language with the same meaning. It results that Ar-ma (and its variant Ar-me) means 'built by Ar, born of Ar', or 'Ar's offspring', 'Ar's/Ara's son' ('the son of the sun', Arevvordi). The ending -ni (the plural-forming or toponymic suffix-ni is found in Subarian-Hurrian-Nairian place and tribal na We find the plural form ni also in Armenian.

It is not unlikely that those of the third millenium B.C. could have Sumerian origin derived from the plural form -e-ne reserved for persons) of Arma-ni (or Arme-ni), as has been mentioned earlier, is plural and toponymic suffix (cf. Mitanni, Supani, Alzini 'Alzinini', Daiaeni, Nihani, etc.).

Hence Armani (or Armeni) means 'sons of Ar', that is, 'sons of the sun' or 'the land of the sons of Ar', which is literally 'the land of the sons of the sun'. A similar case is seen in the Armenian words Hayk' and Virk which by virtue of the plural- forming suffix k' mean, respectively, 'Armenians' and 'Georgians' and also 'the land of Armenians (Armenia)' and 'the land of Georgians (Georgia)'.

Just as the name Arma-ni appears simply as Arma, without the suffix -ni, in the Alalakh inscriptions, so does it in the form Arme in the Assyrian and Urartian writtings. Since, as it was mentioned above, Ar-ma or Ar-me meant 'built by Ar' (the city or country of Ar), or 'the offspring (or the son) of Ar', and since Ar was also called Ara, it follows that the name Arme could have been pronounced also as Arame, which is, as we already know, the name of the founder of Urartian kingdom, meaning 'the son of the sun', and is preserved by Khorenantsi in the form Aram, as the name of one of the Armenian patriarchs. It must be accepted, therefore, that the name Arma or Arme (Arame>Aram) was the basic component of the name Arma-ni or Arme-ni, and hence, itrepresented the name by which Armenians are commonly called by foreigners. This proves that Khorenantsi transmits some ancient and slmost accurate information when, writting about Aram, he states that all the nations of the world call the Armenians -Armen- and their country -Armenia- after the name Aram.

In order to illustrate the meaning of the component -ma- in the name Ar-ma, signifying 'built, begottern, offspring' or 'the son', we cite below, for comparison, a few examples among many drawn from ancient inscriptions: Astatama-The name of one of the kings of Mitanni.
Dukkama-The name of one of the cities of ancient Armenia.
Tarkuma-This place-name is mentioned by the Hittite king Mursil.
Tarku-ma means "that which is built by the god Tarku (Tork-one of the sons of Hayk Nahabed). "Torkashen" in Armenian.
Automa-The daughter of Tigran the Great, who was married to Mithradates 2 of Pontus.

Artasama-The name of the daughter of King Artashes of Armenia who was married, according to Khorenantsi, to "a certain Mithradates, the great prefect of the Georgians."
Artas-a-ma means 'born of Artas (or Artashes). There are many more place-and personal names of antiquity in the Near East (including the Armenian Highland) and Asia Minor that carry the suffix -ma, but the examples given above should be sufficient to show that -ma indeed meant 'built, begotten, offspring, son', just as the endings -azn, -zun, and -sen in the Armenian language convey the same meanings in such compound nouns as Ark'ayazn (king's son), Haykazun (Hayk's offspring), and Haykashen (built by Hayk).

We shall still have opportunity to quote a series of place-names in the Armenian Highland that bear the component Ar or Ara. Suffice it here to mention just one direct testimony from a cuneiform inscription showing that the region of the land Arme was actually called the land of Ar. The monument of King Menua of Urartu, found near Mush, is covered with inscriptions on all its four sides. In one of them the King has written that he had invaded the land of Urme (=Arme) and that there, in the Ar-hi ('Ar-ian' or 'Ara-ian') land, he had left an inscription.

Here is the translation of that portion of the inscription that interests us: "City of Ataune, I came forth (to invade) against the land of Urme, I conquered the land of Urme, I erected this inscription in the Ar-hi land..." This Arhi ('Arian' or 'Araian') region was in the southeast of Mush and lay in the land of Arme belonged to Ar (or Ara) and that it meant 'born of Ar', or 'built by Ara'. In ancient cuneiform writings sometimes we find statements where a certain king or a famous personality is considered to be the son of his main national god or the son of his nation.Josephus Flavius has preserved a direct and living historical testimony according to which King Adrazar of Dzopk' was called the son of Ara, instead of being identified by his national name Armen. H. Matikian, refering to J.Flavius' same testimony writes the following: "...the Jewish chronicler, after relating how David was expanding the boundaries of his kingdom with various invasions, adds the following words which are of great importance for us: 'And while he levied yearly taxes on them, he immediately moved against King Adrazar if Dzopk', the Son of Ara, and warred with him beside the Euphrates...'' 'Dzopk' (Assyrian Isua, Hittite Isua, Urartian Supani, Latin Sophanenae) was situated in the northwestern region of Arme-Subria.

It is evident that it was an Armenian kingdom and her king Adrazar (Zariadr-es) was Armenian.We see that David, instead of specifying this king by his family name Armen, calls him "the Son of Ara", revealing thus his national identity.This is another concrete evidence supporting the fact that the name Armani (Armeni) means 'sons of Ara', or 'the land of the sons of Ara'. Even after the adoption of Christianity there were still many places in Armenia where secterians called "sons of the Sun" ('Arevordi,) continued to exist, and were strongly opposed by the Catholicos Nerses Shnorhali.

The term "Arevordi" persisted in Armenia until 12th centuary of our era. Since in the remote past Ar (or Ara) was the main deity of the native people of the Armenian Highland and since these native people were generally called by the name of this god, it would naturally be expected that certain place names would have been composed with the name of this deity or with the name of the people bearing this name. In fact, in antiquity, the entire Armenian Higland was replete with names that contained the component Ar or Ara. It is true that in later centuries the Armenian Highland, as a highway between continents, has been subjected to many foreign military, political,and cultural influences and has adopted other deities, even yielding to oblivion the identity of Ara; but still there are many place-names in the country that preserve the memory of Ar or Ara.

Exactly. Where that point is relevant, is in the likelyhood that, if many of the Israelites (as opposed to Judeaites) found their way to Scythia as has often been proposed and, is likely given that the some of the oldest Jewish communities in the world are in the Caucasus, the ones who made it up there were probably largely from the northern tribes, i.e. the decidedly pagan ones. There's little proof, but I'm of the opinion that the sort of Judaism that influenced and/or mixed with the nomadic tribes of Central Asia, particularly of the ruling class, were of the pagan-dualistic-Kabbalah-bent.

You've gotta account for this somehow, because the actions of the ruling elite are far too easy to understand within the constructs of Kabbalah and dualism. I don't discount the Kabbalistic roots of the French Cathar and Norman crusaders, but a booster shot of Kabbalistic/pagan "Judaeism" via the Hun/Kabar/Magyar migration into Hungary and Bavaria etc. (in addition to the prior influence of Rabbi Makhir from whose Languedoc kingdom the Cathar movement spread by the way) explains alot IMO.

That's a bit cryptic, I know, but I just have a feel for this after so many years digging around. In the sense of royal familial relations in Medieval Europe and the introduction of the Khazar/Hun/Magyar bloodlines from the East, the most influential family was that of Vladimir I - and there is a family named 'Vlad' whose Coat of Arms is a big Star of David (Megan David/Seal of Solomon) on blue - practically the Israeli flag. The leader of the original Templar Knights was Hughes de Payen (Hugh the "pagan") whose family crest also features the Megan David. There are others, all somewhat significant. Then you have the "3 chevrons". These are a representation, I believe, of the 3 pyramids of Giza, the 3 peaks of Mt. Hermon/Mt. Sion and the 3 stars in Orion's belt. There are lots of family crests with one chevron or two, but almost none with three. Three-chevron crests are, I believe, reserved for the ultra-elite and include the coat of arms of Flanders (not a family of course, but Dragon-central, Belgium), and the family of Levi, the priesthood Israelite tribe.

I wish I had some concrete proof that the Coat of Vlad is connected to Vladimir I. If you read about this guy it'll knock your socks off. He single-handedly conquered a huge area in what is now Russia and the Ukraine, had half a dozen wives and literally hundreds of concubines, and his legitimate children intermarried with the cream of the crop of European elite. One wife, Rogdena of Polotsk, he became interested in and "married" by conquering her kingdom, killing her family and raping her. Vlad was "Conquering Culture" manifest. Screw the rules, win by any means. He was pagan/Varangian Rus (later converted to Christianity), but his family was close with the Arpads of Hungary and intermarried heavily with their Khazar eastern blood-line. Which is why I am intriqued by the Vlad crest.





Well, I'm pretty convinced that Sarai/Sarah was an Egyptian princess. She is (maybe) the reason the Davidic Kings were legitimately of the "dragon-blood-line", hence Jesus "of Nazareth" and John "the Great Nazar" the Baptist, (Nazar = dragon), hence our word "messiah", which possibly derives from "messeh", i.e. the Holy Crocodile from whose fat the Pharaohs were anointed.

'The Davinci Code', both book and film, made a bundle on the idea that Jesus had a wife. Ha-ha - the real scandal is that both he and her were priest/priestesses of the dragon-blood line descended from the Pharaohs. That's why the Merovingians gave a hoot (if they did) - not because Jesus was the savior of the Christian faith, but because of his (and her) part-Egyptian blood.

(Actually, a term 'Egyptian-Ugaritic dragon-blood' would be more accurate and to the point.)

Was watching Troy last night and realized that if Achilles killed Memnon king of Ethiopia (Kush) then he could not be the same as Proteus the king of Egypt. This shows that Upper and Lower Egypt was two different Kingdoms.

After the capture of Troy a combined force of Enetians (Heneti) who had been driven from Paphlagonia (Black Sea) and surviving Trojans under the Dardanian Antenor, sailed to the Venice, Italy area of the Adriatic Sea. Venice knows nothing of its own history.

Antenor was a counsellor of King Priam. Dardan should prove to relate to Danir/Vanir.

I would also guess the Vanir relate to the Kingdom of Van.

Now as the plot thickens…In the town of Este, Italy we discover a Venetic bronze dated to around 700 BC.

Question to sanders is there a chance to trace Oberto I and the House of Este to Troy?

Sorry, I'm just recently focusing on Italy and I don't have a clue.





Yup.




Yes. The Vikings and the Franks both trace their lineages, albiet in "myth" form, back to Antenor. The scholars and historians do their best to dissect and compartmentalize all these stories - but they hide, whether intentionally or unintentionally, the thread. The Franks and Vikings, co-ancestors of the Crusader knights (particularly the Templars) were the product of Trojan tribes, and their leaders believed themselves to be descended from the original Trojan kings. London = "new Troy"??? Several of the original Templars, including its leader Hughes de Payen, were from Troyes in the Champagne region? Go to Wikipedia and it says only that Troyes was named such because three rivers merge there (or something like that).

At every turn I see centuries-old efforts to obfuscate the obvious.

I wasn't really thinking Italy.

The elder branch of the House of Este, the House of Welf, produced dukes of Bavaria (1070–1139, 1156–1180), dukes of Saxony (1138–1139, 1142–1180), a German king (1198–1218), and most impactful upon history, the dukes of Brunswick and Lüneburg (1208–1918)—who were later styled the "Electors of Hanover", a more prestigious Holy Roman Empire title than Arch-duke or duke, when two branches of the family recombined in 1705.

Wow. You've got my attention.

Well, poking around it seems that Obert is sort of a dead end, blood wise. Nothing is known with any certainty about his parentage except his father's name and title.

The JDA genealogy site I use sometimes has a few possible grandparents listed, and I see Bertha of Lorraine as a possible grandmother, who is Oda Billung's granddaughter.
http://fabpedigree.com/s072/f145049.htm



I'm assuming that this area was mosty Etruscan. You're saying that this bronze (?) indicates Veneti presence there?

I looked up 'Lucca' since many of Obert's possible relatives seemed to be Counts of Lucca, and Lucca looks Luciferian (Venus-related) to me. Lucca is next to Liguria and the Ligurian Sea, and this name is connected to the Luggi - one family of which is Pollack (meaning 'head of Lug?) who carry the Black Sea-denoting boar symbol on their crest (as do the Vere and Bush families). I suspect other names like Luxembourg are connected, and that the real root meaning of the prefix is simply light, illumination, for "Lux" itself is a measuring unit of illumination - don't forget about Luxor in Egypt (and Las Vegas for that matter). This "illumination" root origin of the "Lux" names dovetails perfectly with the "Lucifer-Venus" root origin of the Luc/Lug names, because Venus is the harbinger of the sunrise, the planet/symbol/goddess of Illumination.

Anyway, southern and northern Italy are littered with evidence of names and peoples migrating there from Anatolia as well as Peloponnese. Most of what I've picked up about all that is in this post;

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.p...&p=10786786

One last thing, Genoa is in Luguria, and the flag of Genoa is the Templar Cross / Cross of St. George. Genoa's use of the red cross on their flag long predates that of England and the Templars. Furthermore, there's a town in southern Switzerland called Lugano. Check out the coat of arms -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugano

Este appears to be very Veneti and the Veneti appear to he the bringers of Venetian bronze.

During the Iron Age Este was a major centre of the Veneti and later, during the 2nd century BC, it became a Roman colony.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sHFpkZg6N...nze&f=false

Veneti sacrificing horses to Diomedes is interesting making me think he was not Greek.

There are records of the Hunnic nomadic tribes making burnt offerings of horses. (Or, "Huns" if you will, I prefer to use the term "Hunnic federation" or "Hunnic tribes", because many tribes were thought of and confused as Huns besides the 4 actual "Hun" tribes - of all of which of which very little is known.)

They also, like the Vikings, appear to have drunk from the skulls of their enemies, which is a whole big interesting topic unto itself, for the roots of skull, scale and scallop are the same - and there are a bunch of elite family crests with scallop shells (always in threes), i.e. Russell and Spencer (princess Diana) to name two (as well as one very big oil company which the Rothschilds control - Royal Dutch Shell Oil). Furthermore, the decorated skull made into a drinking vessel is called a Kapala - doesn't that look a bit like Kabbalah??? This is where our word for 'Cap' comes from - from Kabbalah, from the drinking of the skulls of one's fallen enemies. I've just gotten used to this to the point where when I see skull-n-crossbones, or scallop shells, I just think dragon scales.

Then there's the bizarre and crazy thing about the red dye that the Phoenicians used to make their red stripes on their sails - which, apparently the Vikings continued and which wound up, rotated 90 degrees , on the flags of the British East India Company as well as the American Flag. I have no doubt that the Phoenicians did embrace red and white stripes, the flag of Lebanon is two red and one white stripe pattern, and the coat of arms of Beruit features diagonal red and white stripes.

Whenever I eat at TGI Friday, one of the only places you can get decent American food in Japan, I'm amused when I look at the menu and the whole damn theme of the place - its all red and white stipes - FURTHERMORE, Friday is named for Frigg, wife of Woden, whose name I am convinced derives ultimately from Phrygia in Anatolia where all these people once lived and worshipped Kybelle and went wild in noizy orgies and cut their nuts off ... and TGI Friday is such a "party" atmosphere - it just makes me giggle.

Back to Phoenicia - the red dye came from a pregannt FEMALE SCALE insect which lived on a KERMAN OAK.

There's a puzzle for you. Scale=dragon. Pregnant female=mother goddess. Kerman=Herman, Germania, Iranian region which was the origin of the domesticated horse and suspected to be the birthplace of the mythological Inanna of Sumer. Oak=Druid significant, oak leaves found in the clutches of the American Eagle and elsewhere.

Sounds like myth-writing, but it turns out it's all factual. Maybe the "scale" appearance of the pregnant insect from which the dye came became the connecting theme to the dragon and everything else, and so the Phoenicians made it their own culturally significant color.

Anyway, I figure that if an ancient peoples, like the Veneti, were successful enough at conquering and spreading their DNA around for us to be talking about them, they were of the "dragon-cult" group of tribes which bottle-necked in ancient Troad and parts of Greece roughly 3000 years ago. These were all related peoples, had roots in the Levant and probably Egypt, operated on a hierarchical system of rule where the rulers were descended from the gods, were all very good at boat-building, weapon-making and blood-letting, and shared secret cultish Kabbalah-based religions. The families who excelled in this environment made their own history their own, kept it from the rest of us, intermarried with like ilk, and conquered the world. ... In a nutshell.

Thanx for the info/link about the Veneti - these people were about as important as you can get IMO - equal to the tribes which fostered the Franks and Vikings, in fact I think you can pretty much sum up the roots of the historical Elite by calling them a mix of Veneti, Viking (Aesir/Vanir), Frank (Sicambrian) and Hunnic (Khazar, Avar, Hun etc.) bloodlines. Italy seems to have had some immigrants from Sparta in areas adjacent to the Anatolian ones (in the south), but the Spartans seem also to be cousins of these peoples and to have shared a history in Egypt with the Israelites, despite the fact that the Spartans fought on the opposite side of the Trojans in the Trojan War.

If my post seems a bit cryptic, it's 'cause its a very deep topic that a whole book could be devoted to, in addition to which I'm a bit drunk at the moment.

...........

EDIT

I forgot about the Saxons. Some say "Isaac's son". They are a tough nut to crack, and I haven't even tried, but I figure they too were Trojans at one time. The Picts and the Milesians also play minor roles, they too can be easily traced to Troad. Think "conquering culture" and "weapon and ship making expertise" which spread from the Levant and, in the case of the ruling families, think "dragon" elite and everything begins to make sense.

dragon
drag-on

drag:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/drag

on:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/on


"Drag" and "on" seem to be very ancient root words.
And now, have so many meanings in English,
that there could be similar sounding words in different languages,
that match one or more English meanings...
i wonder.

From my western history we had “Dragoons” right after Louise & Clark

The word Dragoon originally meant mounted infantry, who were trained in horse riding as well as infantry fighting skills.

However, usage altered over time, dragoons evolved into conventional light cavalry units and personnel.

Dragoon regiments were established in most European armies during the late 17th and early 18th centuries.

The name was also given to a type of firearm (called a dragon) carried by dragoons of the French Army.

There is no distinction between the words dragon and dragoon in French.

i was thinking of using the root words as a way of following history,
and perhaps migration routes.
It seems the older the word, the more uses, and meanings are attached,
at some point in our history,
...probably after the invention of the word "ugh".

Yeah. I have to say, before I typed that last post, I had never connected Luc, Lug and Lux. All of which appears to me now to likely derive from Lucifer/Illumination/Venus, and Venus again evokes Veneti/Venedi/Venice.

The Medici bankers were renowned of course, and if, like me, you have poked around at the family roots of Europe's Medieval elite much, you find a lot of Germanic families with a Medici or two in their histories. The Medici bankers/merchants were dominant in Florence which is in Tuscany, Tuscany also having been the stomping ground of Obert I who elreb brought up.

This is the coat of arms of Pisa, also in Tuscany.



The Coat of Arms of the French Cathar region of Toulouse, home of the Crusader leader Raymond IV Count of Toulouse, Cathar legends also supposedly being the source of the "Magdalene Heresy" stuff that made so much money for the Davinci Code franchise -



Holy daughter-in-law of Mary!!!!


I'm curious about the "Veneti bronze" found in Tuscany elreb mentioned (link?), but I suspect that whole region from Genoa to Friuli (west to east) and to Abruzzo and Lazio (to the south) was dominated by immigrants from Troad and heavily "dragon-cult" influenced. The cult of Kybele/Sabazios was so popular in the Roman Empire that Rome was forced to officially endorse it. How much you want-a bet that this Kybele Cult popularity wasn't centered in Rome, but in other parts of Italy???

.................

Just for the record, what we are talking about is pretty deep stuff. This is all controversial of course, but the clues all point to the same conclusion, despite the fact that historians and scholars have forever been reluctant to connect the dots. That is, that the Kings of Troy as well as the founders of Sparta and Thebes migrated to Greece and Troad from Egypt (Thebes is a city in both Greece and Egypt!) and were cousins to the Israelites. In Anatolia (modern Turkey) these people reconnect with migrants from the Levant (just around the corner) and Kabbalah-based cultish religion goes wild with the cults of Kybele, Dionysis and Sabazios. The Trojans lose the Trojan war and flee - the proto-Vikings and proto-Franks go east to the opposite side of the Black Sea, from where they will later migrate into Gaul and Scandinavia, later clash in the 9th century in what will become Normandy and intermarry to become the Normans who will conquer England and give rise, with the help of Cathar Franks, to the first Crusade and the Templars.

But this isn't the whole story. There are the Hunnic tribes, who appear to have left the Levant in the biblical era and travelled east, mixed and fought with the Chinese (as Mongul "Xiong-nu"), eventually had the #&$' kicked out of them and returned to Central Asia from where they mixed again with Isrealite refugees (?) and finally invaded Europe in two major waves, in the second of which Hunnic Magyars settled modern Hungary, from where their leaders (the Arpads) intermarried with European royalty.

But the last piece of the puzzle which isn't as obvious (and which long eluded me) was the entrance into Europe from this Trojan/Levant elite thru Italy. Various place-names in Italy and their similarity to names in Anatolia are the first give-away, the notion that the Brusse/Bruce rulers of Scotland derive from the Abruzzo region of central Italy is another clue, the Count of Friuli and his part in Peppin's conquering the Avar kingdom is also very significant (I devoted some words about this in my "dragon blood-line" thread).

If these "dragon-cult" related (i.e. notable for war-making and seafaring skills, conquering-values, a so-called heaven-descended elite and blood-descendency, as well as secretive religious cults and ancient paganistic or Kabbalistic beliefs) can be said to have been real, if they did go their separate ways after the defeat of Troy and then clash and recombine (and with regard to the ruling families intermarry) in Europe as the Roman Empire collapsed, then this is the origin of our current masters. You can trace them through the Templars, the British and Dutch East India Companies, the Opium and Slave Trade magnates of early America, the dominance of these families in the shareholding of the first US National Banks, the Robber Barons of the late 19th century, and the setting up of the Federal Reserve, the large endowed foundations and the CFR. It's not all clear cut or easy to spot at first glance, but there is a definite thread which can be followed, and this is why we have a pyramid with the all-seeing eye on the back of the US 1 dollar bill.

So far as I can discern.

If not, why are the Freemasons (evolved from the Templars) always the subject of speculation? Why is there a giant statue of a dragon smack dab in the middle of Fleet Street not a hundred yards from the Templar-built Crown Temple Church in the City of London financial center? Why do London and Washington boast Egyptian obelisks? Why is so much of our literature based on Greek myths, which are in turn the stories of the dragon-elite clashing in the Greek theatre written in code? Or on the Shakesperian plays, which were probably written by Rosicrucians - either Francis Bacon, a group of Rosicrucians led by Bacon, or by Edward de Vere (another guy from a rich "dragon" family - possibly an illegitimate child of Queen Elizabeth I?) Why, why, why???