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kaz
[quote name='Sanders' date='Nov 26 2010, 05:00 AM' post='10791432']
Cool - looks good.

I'm collecting links for my own blog-roll, good timing.

( I have my own site here )

Are you aware that this site whilst promoting free speech and many good fact based articles also promotes the revised Holocaust history. Some claim it didn't happen at all, it was a Jewish plot forced on the unfortunate Nazi's,there were no gas chambers and they had swimming pools in prison camps. The Germans starved/gassed/shot/tortured 11 million europeans but their main focus was on the Jews of which they killed 6 million. The evidence for this is comprehensive as the Germans themselves kept meticulous records through journal lists,IBM punch cards,Tattooing of victims. Literally thousands of Allied soldiers witnessed the aftermath, german citizens and military came forward to tell of the atrocities, confessions made by high ranking military officers (not just the Nuremberg trial Officers) imprisoned in stately British Houses. From Mein Kampf until 1945 Hitler and the NAZI regime espoused a strong ANTI-Jewish dialogue and from 1933 started the segregation and slaughter of Jews and the other groups that white supremacists hated eg: Slavs,Gays,Blacks etc.
Does Pilots for truth claim the holocaust is a hoax? I would be interested in your opinion.
Quest
QUOTE (kaz @ Nov 27 2010, 02:24 PM) *
I am glad you do not endorse a position but there does come a time when lies have to be shown for what they are. And perpetuating the Lie that the Holocaust was a bizarre Jewish plot or didn't happen means prejudices will go on forever . Truth is struggling everywhere mostly because our so called leaders of society(CEO's and Politicians) think lying is part of their job description. As for JFK wasn't it Sam Giancanna and the CIA working together?
Mossad has done many crimes usually under a false flag operation and Sibel Edmonds testimony certainly helps to link 911 to the Mossad. But that isn't the Jewish people the same as the criminal elements of the CIA are not representative of all Americans.


Kaz, regarding the JFK assasination, does the name Meyer Lanksy mean anything to you? Also, are you aware that it was Prescott Bush and his business cronies that were behind the push to get Hitler in power? Does this concern you?
http://tarpley.net/online-books/george-bus...ized-biography/

What are your thoughts on the USS Liberty massacre and the use of unmarked Israeli fighter planes to accomplish the mission?
http://www.gtr5.com/

Lastly, what are your thoughts on the biggest Holocaust in our time, the Bolshevik Genocide, or as commonly know as the Bolshevik 'Revolution'?
http://www.sovietstory.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3uFUxMwA1w...feature=related
Are you aware that most historians believe between 40-60 million killed with 9,000,000 killed/starved in the Ukraine alone? BTw, what was Trotsky's REAL name and where was he from? Were there any other of the Bolshevik leaders that used aliases?

Understand that I am asking you these questions Kaz because 911 didn't occur in a vacuum. There is a long history of deception, assinations and genocide leading up to 911. And if we are going to discuss "globalism", shouldn't we be discussing history, attrocities and concerns from ALL people of the world instead of just one?
Sanders
Regarding what I've read lately in this thread, from my take on things ...

Imagine this -

There is a small group of people who run the dog-and-pony-show for profit and power and are for all intents and purposes invisible.

They follow a different creed than those of us who possess a conventional moral compass ... they do not think of themselves as evil or immoral, those words have little meaning in this circle. They think of themselves as special, as a ruling class, as imbued with the authority to "manage" the planet and us in it. To them, there is such a thing as a "noble lie", to them order later justifies chaos now.

They have been working patiently but doggedly for over a century in America to get control of:

Money creation

Government

Media

The content of education

They formed large endowed foundations to put a charitable face on the corporations they control and to protect assets. They had laws enacted, also patiently and doggedly for over a century to transfer powers from the people and the states to the federal government (Uniform Laws or Unifority Code), which they came to control. They invented the CIA to be the attack dog for their corporate interests overseas. They created fractional reserve banking, created the FED, created the IRS and started robbing us blind and plunging the nation into debt to pay for wars they envisioned and started. They took the wealth from the people gradually through booms and busts.

They also created the state of Israel. Maybe partially for "spiritual" reasons, as the Near East was not just the home of the Israelites but also that of the barbarian Vikings, Franks and Huns who were their ancestors, but probably not to create a "homeland for the Jews". That was an excuse. More important was to insert a wedge they controlled into the heart of the resource rich middle east. I am fairly certain this is the case, for despite the fact that one french Rothschild, Edmund, was an early Zionism supporter, the Rothschild banking houses as a whole didn't come on board until after oil was discovered in Persia prior to WWI.

So given all that, I don't care what event you are talking about ... WWI, WWII, Bretton Woods and the creation of the UN and Israel after it, the Kennedy assassination, or 9/11. These things are all planned and they ™ use whatever resources necessary to pull them off neatly. Government agencies in the US, Britain, Israel, CIA, MI6, Mossad, the media across the board, the foundations, law enforcement, you name it. They control all of these entities from the top (that's what they've been setting up for the last 100 years) and the people below are just following directives on a need-to-know basis.

2 cents
SanderO
Quest,

There is a long history of mass manipulation to manage the public. 911 may be one of the events which played into this general theme. We certainly saw how regardless of whodunnit, 911 was used to start a few wars and clamp down on our rights. That however may not be related to who did it as much as who took advantage of it. It may be the same "interests" and likely is.

However, 911 is a mystery with many layers which need to be peeled back to see who was behind it and what was their motive(s). The presumption is that 911 was part of a multi year strategy and was just one of many events carried out by the same group. This may or may not be true and we cant know that until we peel back all the layers. It's tempting to speculate, but we need real evidence to connect the dots and those who work in secret have been pretty successful in covering their tracks.

Of course, if this sort of operation is what we are up against, convincing the public, after all their brain washing will take more than suggesting such a massive conspiracy as acceptance would undermine the legitimacy of the government and all its policies for perhaps a half a century. That's a hard pill to swallow. How can the public be prepared for that sort of "trauma" which frankly is worse than the BS of Al Qaeda attacking us?

I would assert that simply presenting the facts will not be enough.
Quest
QUOTE (Sanders @ Nov 27 2010, 10:11 PM) *
Regarding what I've read lately in this thread, from my take on things ...

Imagine this -

There is a small group of people who run the dog-and-pony-show for profit and power and are for all intents and purposes invisible.

They follow a different creed than those of us who possess a conventional moral compass ... they do not think of themselves as evil or immoral, those words have little meaning in this circle. They think of themselves as special, as a ruling class, as imbued with the authority to "manage" the planet and us in it. To them, there is such a thing as a "noble lie", to them order later justifies chaos now.

They have been working patiently but doggedly for over a century in America to get control of:

Money creation

Government

Media

The content of education

They formed large endowed foundations to put a charitable face on the corporations they control and to protect assets. They had laws enacted, also patiently and doggedly for over a century to transfer powers from the people and the states to the federal government (Uniform Laws or Unifority Code), which they came to control. They invented the CIA to be the attack dog for their corporate interests overseas. They created fractional reserve banking, created the FED, created the IRS and started robbing us blind and plunging the nation into debt to pay for wars they envisioned and started. They took the wealth from the people gradually through booms and busts.

They also created the state of Israel. Maybe partially for "spiritual" reasons, as the Near East was not just the home of the Israelites but also that of the barbarian Vikings, Franks and Huns who were their ancestors, but probably not to create a "homeland for the Jews". That was an excuse. More important was to insert a wedge they controlled into the heart of the resource rich middle east. I am fairly certain this is the case, for despite the fact that one french Rothschild, Edmund, was an early Zionism supporter, the Rothschild banking houses as a whole didn't come on board until after oil was discovered in Persia prior to WWI.

So given all that, I don't care what event you are talking about ... WWI, WWII, Bretton Woods and the creation of the UN and Israel after it, the Kennedy assassination, or 9/11. These things are all planned and they ™ use whatever resources necessary to pull them off neatly. Government agencies in the US, Britain, Israel, CIA, MI6, Mossad, the media across the board, the foundations, law enforcement, you name it. They control all of these entities from the top (that's what they've been setting up for the last 100 years) and the people below are just following directives on a need-to-know basis.

2 cents



Sanders, all this sounds about right but don't tell Zionists they aren't the ones running the show. They'll tell you otherwise. Someone obviously forgot to clue them in. Either that, or they ARE actually running the show. My impression is that different people are allowed to take hold of the NWO reigns so-to-speak so long as they protect each other at the top and concessions are made along the way to the various groups in power, such as the creation of Israel. Additionally, I think the NWO is a Western phenomenon, consisting of only a few groups and even though they may help other countries with "problems" they go along to get along while holding each other in suspision (see Jonathan Pollard). I also think it's important to note that the Rothschild's or other bankers for that matter, have no army. An army with it's own weapons and intelligence (The USA for instance) need not answer to a banker who has no weapons. My impression is that that it's the obvious, Zionists and Christian Zionists are running the show and it's so obvious that we can't see it. Is it possible that the bankers are simply seen by the elite as "neutral" and don't really run anything at all? That being said, there is the (in)famous photo of a Rockefeller and Rothschild looking over the creation of a model of the soon to be built Israeli parliment building replete with Masonic symbolisim. Not for nothing, but how can we dismiss this element?

http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/roth...eli_supreme.htm
CuriousGeorge2
Quest, Sanders, and SanerO,

Excellent info. That's how we feel; 9/11 did not occur in a vacuum, and by looking at details of various similar crimes in history we can gain important insights into the crimes of 9/11 and put them into some kind of a context.

Regarding waking up the public, I have this belief: we expose the BIGGEST LIES we can. Then, lies that had previously seemed big will suddenly not seem so big to the public. For example, exposing something like a United Nations fraud would, by comparison, make the controlled demolition of Building 7 on 9/11 seem small. To say it the other way, suppose we only aimed to expose Building 7. Then, to people, that would seem like a REALLY BIG deal. See? Just my thoughts about that.

BTW, we're putting up a simple list of historical events to be sort of a focuser for our discussions. It's at this link:
http://911newscentral.com/historically-sig...nt-events-hses/

Help is requested to add more historical events to it. For example, more genocides, more false flags, etc. The goal wouldn't be to make an exhaustive list. The goal is to get enough details to help us see 9/11, not in a vacuum as Quest was saying, but in its context.
Alan H.
QUOTE (Sanders @ Nov 25 2010, 08:11 PM) *
Regarding what I've read lately in this thread, from my take on things ...

Imagine this -

There is a small group of people who run the dog-and-pony-show for profit and power and are for all intents and purposes invisible.

They follow a different creed than those of us who possess a conventional moral compass ... they do not think of themselves as evil or immoral, those words have little meaning in this circle. They think of themselves as special, as a ruling class, as imbued with the authority to "manage" the planet and us in it. To them, there is such a thing as a "noble lie", to them order later justifies chaos now.

They have been working patiently but doggedly for over a century in America to get control of:

Money creation

Government

Media

The content of education

They formed large endowed foundations to put a charitable face on the corporations they control and to protect assets. They had laws enacted, also patiently and doggedly for over a century to transfer powers from the people and the states to the federal government (Uniform Laws or Unifority Code), which they came to control. They invented the CIA to be the attack dog for their corporate interests overseas. They created fractional reserve banking, created the FED, created the IRS and started robbing us blind and plunging the nation into debt to pay for wars they envisioned and started. They took the wealth from the people gradually through booms and busts.

They also created the state of Israel. Maybe partially for "spiritual" reasons, as the Near East was not just the home of the Israelites but also that of the barbarian Vikings, Franks and Huns who were their ancestors, but probably not to create a "homeland for the Jews". That was an excuse. More important was to insert a wedge they controlled into the heart of the resource rich middle east. I am fairly certain this is the case, for despite the fact that one french Rothschild, Edmund, was an early Zionism supporter, the Rothschild banking houses as a whole didn't come on board until after oil was discovered in Persia prior to WWI.

So given all that, I don't care what event you are talking about ... WWI, WWII, Bretton Woods and the creation of the UN and Israel after it, the Kennedy assassination, or 9/11. These things are all planned and they ™ use whatever resources necessary to pull them off neatly. Government agencies in the US, Britain, Israel, CIA, MI6, Mossad, the media across the board, the foundations, law enforcement, you name it. They control all of these entities from the top (that's what they've been setting up for the last 100 years) and the people below are just following directives on a need-to-know basis.

2 cents



Sanders, you appear to have the big picture in focus. It's good to know. BTW, I agree with you concerning the need for more expertise in the area of structural engineering, and, whatever is discovered through science should prevail.
I don't pretend to know what happened. It seems that the odds of 3 steel framed buildings collapsing symmetrically like that, when they've never done so before, would be staggering. But yet, if those towers were brought down by C.D, that's a big operation. Too big for humans to keep secret, one would think. I mean, the reason we know about the torture that took place in Iraq, etc. is because people always eventually talk. Humans are terrible at keeping secrets. Yet, most building collapses I have seen are asymmetrical. But someone needs to do real research on this stuff. And we must face whatever facts are revealed, and admit any of our mistakes and correct them immediately. Personally, I think we have more to fear from the bankers, who sit at the top, and have just transferred about 10 trillion dollars from the middle class and poor to the rich, when you count the money loaned out by the FED. during the "bailout." I can't believe people can even speak of a "free market" with a straight face, when we have a private central bank setting interest rates. They blow the bubble up, and they make money, then they pop it and contract the money supply and make even more $ with the bust. Then they start over again. It's been going on for a long time, and is not a "natural cycle" but a manipulation--economic warfare. And until we make them remember that there's a lot more of us than them, they will continue to dominate, enslave, and rob us of everything. They've already devalued the American dollar by about 95% since their inception in 1913. Thomas Jefferson had it right when he said he thought giving the power of money creation to private banks was more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies!
gepay
QUOTE (Sanders @ Nov 25 2010, 08:11 PM) *
Regarding what I've read lately in this thread, from my take on things ...

Imagine this -

There is a small group of people who run the dog-and-pony-show for profit and power and are for all intents and purposes invisible.

They follow a different creed than those of us who possess a conventional moral compass ... they do not think of themselves as evil or immoral, those words have little meaning in this circle. They think of themselves as special, as a ruling class, as imbued with the authority to "manage" the planet and us in it. To them, there is such a thing as a "noble lie", to them order later justifies chaos now.

They have been working patiently but doggedly for over a century in America to get control of:

Money creation

Government

Media

The content of education

They formed large endowed foundations to put a charitable face on the corporations they control and to protect assets. They had laws enacted, also patiently and doggedly for over a century to transfer powers from the people and the states to the federal government (Uniform Laws or Unifority Code), which they came to control. They invented the CIA to be the attack dog for their corporate interests overseas. They created fractional reserve banking, created the FED, created the IRS and started robbing us blind and plunging the nation into debt to pay for wars they envisioned and started. They took the wealth from the people gradually through booms and busts.

They also created the state of Israel. Maybe partially for "spiritual" reasons, as the Near East was not just the home of the Israelites but also that of the barbarian Vikings, Franks and Huns who were their ancestors, but probably not to create a "homeland for the Jews". That was an excuse. More important was to insert a wedge they controlled into the heart of the resource rich middle east. I am fairly certain this is the case, for despite the fact that one french Rothschild, Edmund, was an early Zionism supporter, the Rothschild banking houses as a whole didn't come on board until after oil was discovered in Persia prior to WWI.

So given all that, I don't care what event you are talking about ... WWI, WWII, Bretton Woods and the creation of the UN and Israel after it, the Kennedy assassination, or 9/11. These things are all planned and they ™ use whatever resources necessary to pull them off neatly. Government agencies in the US, Britain, Israel, CIA, MI6, Mossad, the media across the board, the foundations, law enforcement, you name it. They control all of these entities from the top (that's what they've been setting up for the last 100 years) and the people below are just following directives on a need-to-know basis.

2 cents
gepay
I agreed with most of post but I can't help but wonder what are your sources for the Huns, the Franks, the Vikings coming from the Middle East. Certainly nothing in recorded history suggests that. The Vikings mythology of the Frost giants defeating their Gods suggests memories of the Ice Age It would appear they went back north when the Ice Age ended. I haven't looked into it but I thought the Huns came out of Asia Minor. The Franks had been living in France for a long time before Julius Caesar conquered them. They fought amongst each other like Celts are wont to do. WEre they Celts? Most of the French living in Normandy or Breton are. One thing I read said Celts were originally from Central Europe. Nobody really kows where we all came from. Some say we all came from Africa with most traveling through the Middle East - others on boats . Others think there 3 main separate groups that evolved into humans.
It is hard to talk about Israeli involvement in 911 ie the Holocaust gives the Israelis this kind of moral righteousness that they are definitely abusing. Jimmy Carter compares the treatment of the Palestinians with apartheid in South Africa and is labeled an anti-Semite. The Jewish guy working for the UN compares the treatment of the Palestinians in GAza to the Warsaw ghetto and I agree with him. While it is true the Germans killed many more non-Jewish Eurpeans than Jews (10million Poles for instance) a greater percentage of Jews were killed whether it was 2,4, or 6 million. Thee were mainly ordinary Jews. How many of the banking Rothchild family were killed in the camps?
There were the dancing Israelis celebrating the collapses of the WTC. Silverstein was friends of Ariel Sharon and Bibi Netanyahu . He did as part of a consortium buy the WTC just months before 911. He and his son and daughter were normally all in the WTC 1 on a weekday but on 911, none of them were. Silverstein even had an appointment with the Port Authority of New Yorkthat morning that he canceled. Of, course I doubt that even the inordinate Israeli influence and the Mossad couldn't pull off 911 by themselves. Elements in Saudi Arabia helped. Probably elements of British intelligence helped the Americans as well. There were an inordinate number of Jewish NeoCons in the Bush admistration that were happy that 911 came of as well as it did.
A later poster does mention that even though it is pretty clear 911 was an inside job, we will probably never get a majority of the American populace to agree with us. The real question is "What to do? What to do?"
Sanders
QUOTE (CuriousGeorge2 @ Dec 1 2010, 06:46 PM) *
...9/11 did not occur in a vacuum, and by looking at details of various similar crimes in history we can gain important insights into the crimes of 9/11 and put them into some kind of a context.


My thoughts exactly. And I appreciate the other comments. I need to clarify something though ... I posted:

QUOTE
They also created the state of Israel. Maybe partially for "spiritual" reasons, as the Near East was not just the home of the Israelites but also that of the barbarian Vikings, Franks and Huns who were their ancestors, but probably not to create a "homeland for the Jews". That was an excuse. More important was to insert a wedge they controlled into the heart of the resource rich middle east...


My hobby is the elite, and how they got here. If you want to know where my head's at anyone can check out my site. The pertinent stuff is in the 'articles'.

When I said "Vikings, Franks and Huns ", I'm talking about the tribes which displaced the Romans in Europe. When I say Vikings, I mean Aesir, Vanir, Erul, Ostrogoth, Goth, Visogoth, Saxon etc. When I say "Huns" I mean the Hunnic federation, the nomadic Turkic tribes that included the Avars, Khazars, White Huns Black Huns Bulgars Magyars, Kabars etc. The Ashkenazi Jews of Europe came from (some of) these Hunnic groups (i.e. tribes from Khazaria which followed Judaism) , and they are (for the most part) Japhetic, not Semitic. All of these "barbarians" share roots in Canaan and Mesopotamia, and possibly in Egypt - and are ancestral cousins of the Israelites ... but not descended from them, excepting the likelihood that Israelite refugees intermixed with the Asian tribes in Scythia (later to become Khazaria) following Babylonian/Assyrian/Roman invasions. I guess what I'm getting at is, our elite - both the monarchs of Europe and the bankers of Germany both descend from tribes which converged on Europe at roughly the same time, intermarried and took over ... and they did take it over - the aristocracy of medieval Europe descend exclusively from the ruling clans of these peoples. The Jewish banking families are harder to trace, but there are surprising connections between the Cohen family (variation of Kagan/Khan or vice versa) and several VERY elite ruling Christian families (Vere, Stuart, Hohen), to cite an example.

Khazar blood from Asia flowed into Europe mainly through Hungary, and interestingly a king of Hungary while this was happening, a member of the Arpad clan (descended from Attila the Hun), was Solomon (by no means a common name at the time among Christians) while in Scotland the son of Margaret, who was born in Hungary and grew up with the Arpads, was king David - also an unheard of name in Christian Europe (much less pagan-ish Scotland) at the time. So something is going on here ... irrespective of troubles between Christians and Jews through the centuries, you can't look at the descendants of the Asian Kagans as one group which was Jewish, and the Viking and Frank leaders as another group which was Christian - I mean, you can, but it leads to no insight. They mixed to produce the aristocracy there beginning about the 10th century - and it's a secret. None of those marriages are recorded as inter-religious, but you can see the intermixing in the family crests and other clues. Then if you go back further you have the whole controversy surrounding Rabbi Makhir, Exhilarch of Babylon and his being the father of William of Gellone (whose blood flowed into all the noble families of the Frankish kingdom thereafter). Maybe I'm taking it too far, but I wanted to try and get the point across.

OK, I'll stop being cryptic and address something Quest posted ...

QUOTE
Sanders, all this sounds about right but don't tell Zionists they aren't the ones running the show. They'll tell you otherwise. Someone obviously forgot to clue them in. Either that, or they ARE actually running the show. My impression is that different people are allowed to take hold of the NWO reigns so-to-speak so long as they protect each other at the top and concessions are made along the way to the various groups in power, such as the creation of Israel. Additionally, I think the NWO is a Western phenomenon, consisting of only a few groups and even though they may help other countries with "problems" they go along to get along while holding each other in suspision (see Jonathan Pollard). I also think it's important to note that the Rothschild's or other bankers for that matter, have no army.


First, sure they have an army. They have OUR army, they have Britain's army, they have Israel's army. And they don't even have to pay for them. They can do their song and dance and have any of those armies do about anything they want for them. They also control the pursestrings of the governments, so that's even more control. As for Zionists "knowing", it all depends on how high up you go. I think you can compare the situation now with the situation during WWII. Certainly many high ranking Jews and Jewish bankers understood what was happening - and maybe supported and helped finance Hitler because they supported a Jewish homeland - and that view explains perfectly why the term 'Holocaust' came to describe it, not sure if you know, but Holocaust means "Sacrifice by fire", "burnt offering" (not kidding). But I really do think the whole Zionist movement was like any movement ... they, and by "they" I mean both "Jewish" and "Christian" power brokers see an opportunity and exploit it. Just like they took the teachings of Karl Marx and got behind it to throw out the Czar and create a Totalitarian state. The identity of two leading Christian Zionists in the late 19th century, Henry Drummond and Charles Taze Russell (both very elite families), is a giveaway. It's very grey and the reality gradually comes to mirror the fraud ... so you can't even say it's like this or like that. But it's definitely not black and white, and to blame it all on the Zionists sort of misses the mark IMO. Classic "Zionists", those who are in it simply to expand Israeli property and homogeneity and kill off the Arabs, are being used on a fundamental level. There's a larger agenda here.

3 cents
albertchampion
here is something to consider....have you reflected upon how there can be no other holocausts? that the only "holocaust" worthy of recollection is what happened in germany and eastern europe during the 1930's-1940's.

and that even in that "holocaust" the only victims worthy of recollection are the jews. not any of the other victims.

the "holocaust" that is rigorously ignored is what was instigated in north america in the 17th century, reached its climax in the 19th century, and continues into this century. why is this much more destructive "holocaust" ignored? is it because it puts the anti-jew activities of several decades of the 20th century into a less cataclysmic light?

and since the last global war, what religious group has assumed the positons of propaganda power so as to effect the erasure of the north american holocaust[one that i think to have been the longest running one still extant].
kaz
QUOTE (Quest @ Nov 27 2010, 05:32 PM) *
Kaz, regarding the JFK assasination, does the name Meyer Lanksy mean anything to you? Also, are you aware that it was Prescott Bush and his business cronies that were behind the push to get Hitler in power? Does this concern you?
http://tarpley.net/online-books/george-bus...ized-biography/

What are your thoughts on the USS Liberty massacre and the use of unmarked Israeli fighter planes to accomplish the mission?
http://www.gtr5.com/

Lastly, what are your thoughts on the biggest Holocaust in our time, the Bolshevik Genocide, or as commonly know as the Bolshevik 'Revolution'?
http://www.sovietstory.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3uFUxMwA1w...feature=related
Are you aware that most historians believe between 40-60 million killed with 9,000,000 killed/starved in the Ukraine alone? BTw, what was Trotsky's REAL name and where was he from? Were there any other of the Bolshevik leaders that used aliases?

Understand that I am asking you these questions Kaz because 911 didn't occur in a vacuum. There is a long history of deception, assinations and genocide leading up to 911. And if we are going to discuss "globalism", shouldn't we be discussing history, attrocities and concerns from ALL people of the world instead of just one?

The USS Liberty was a another WAR crime by Israel that has gone unpunished.
Lansky was the finance guy of lucky Luciano so he worked with many Italians and during the war showed he was anti-nazi. He helped secured the deal between the US government (through the ONI forerunner of the CIA) and Luciano to get the docks working for the war effort. Luciano's men and the ONI went into towns in Italy as the Allies freed up Italy. They then installed the local mafia guy into a mayoral type position. This ensured the growth of the Mafia in Italy and America. Someone with a Jewish name who worked with Italians who wanted the American Dream...makes lots of tax free money
Prescott Bush was charged for helping the Nazi's in gaining finance during War time was he involved with Lansky?
Trotsky was initially with Lenin and Stalin but opposed their use of violence to assert their authority. He was a part of the revolution from the 19th century and even when exiled for his stand against Stalinism he was assassinated in Mexico. I'd say he had little to do with the millions that Lenin and Stalin killed/tortured/starved etc.
Your argument seems to be lets find a jewish name and ignore all the anglo saxons/italians/russians involved in atrocities and blame it all on the JEWS as they have total mind control of everyone with a Jewish name and render all other races stupid as they blindly follow zionists interests. Keep the theory simple then the facts won't get in the way of your theory. Yes the Zionists,Mossad etc have a big influence post WWll and usually in the US and its Allies. I don't think Arab countries,the Chinese, Japanese and Indians (nearly half the worlds population) are influenced by the Jews.
Sanders
Split from *new* 911blogger.org Welcomes Cit, Pilots

(Sorry for encoraging that, CuriousG2.)
Sanders
QUOTE (gepay @ Dec 1 2010, 10:13 PM) *
I agreed with most of post but I can't help but wonder what are your sources for the Huns, the Franks, the Vikings coming from the Middle East. Certainly nothing in recorded history suggests that. The Vikings mythology of the Frost giants defeating their Gods suggests memories of the Ice Age It would appear they went back north when the Ice Age ended. I haven't looked into it but I thought the Huns came out of Asia Minor. The Franks had been living in France for a long time before Julius Caesar conquered them. They fought amongst each other like Celts are wont to do. WEre they Celts? Most of the French living in Normandy or Breton are. One thing I read said Celts were originally from Central Europe. Nobody really kows where we all came from. Some say we all came from Africa with most traveling through the Middle East - others on boats . Others think there 3 main separate groups that evolved into humans.
It is hard to talk about Israeli involvement in 911 ie the Holocaust gives the Israelis this kind of moral righteousness that they are definitely abusing. Jimmy Carter compares the treatment of the Palestinians with apartheid in South Africa and is labeled an anti-Semite. The Jewish guy working for the UN compares the treatment of the Palestinians in GAza to the Warsaw ghetto and I agree with him. While it is true the Germans killed many more non-Jewish Eurpeans than Jews (10million Poles for instance) a greater percentage of Jews were killed whether it was 2,4, or 6 million. Thee were mainly ordinary Jews. How many of the banking Rothchild family were killed in the camps?
There were the dancing Israelis celebrating the collapses of the WTC. Silverstein was friends of Ariel Sharon and Bibi Netanyahu . He did as part of a consortium buy the WTC just months before 911. He and his son and daughter were normally all in the WTC 1 on a weekday but on 911, none of them were. Silverstein even had an appointment with the Port Authority of New Yorkthat morning that he canceled. Of, course I doubt that even the inordinate Israeli influence and the Mossad couldn't pull off 911 by themselves. Elements in Saudi Arabia helped. Probably elements of British intelligence helped the Americans as well. There were an inordinate number of Jewish NeoCons in the Bush admistration that were happy that 911 came of as well as it did.
A later poster does mention that even though it is pretty clear 911 was an inside job, we will probably never get a majority of the American populace to agree with us. The real question is "What to do? What to do?"


It would be difficult to provide sources with out doing some digging, but the proto-Franks and proto-Vikings moved up into Germania from Scythia in the early centuries of the 1st millenium, while at this same time the Hunnic tribes were moving west into Central Asia from Mongolia. Many of those proto-Vikings may have originally come from the north, but their leaders at least were descended from Trojan kings and the Aesir and Vanir were Trojan tribes which fled from the Troad to the Caucasus and the Crimea after the fall of Troy as best as I can figure. The Franks weren't Celts, they migrated up into Germania from Scythia just like the other Germanic tribes.

The Huns and Magyars settled Hungary, led by the Arpad clan. Hungarian is called "Ugric", and pockets of 'Uyghurs' dot the path from Mongolia to Central Asia. Ugric and Uyghur look alot like Ugarit to me. Just below Ugarit is the island of Arwad, sometimes spelled Arpad - the same name of the Magyar leaders. Hungarian myth has its founding tribes descended from Hunor and Magor, sons of Nimrod (Menrot), while Magor has been linked to Magog and the Magyars to the Mittani. Things like that lead me to conclude that the Turkic tribes that came to be called "Huns" originated in the Fertile Crescent. Different clues, myths, historical accounts etc. lead me to conclude that the Trojans or at least their leaders, migrated into Troad from Crete and other islands in the Aegean but came originally from the Levant and Egypt - the Greek myths (of Danaus and Cadmus) say the same thing.

Maybe its all academic, but you have to wonder, why do the elite put so many pyramids on their money and corporate logos (and new Israeli Supreme Court Building)? Seems really strange to me if Zionists are in charge and if the biblical story of the Exodus holds any water at all.

And as for "what to do?" - that's a great question. What to do???

I don't know, but being under the thumb of the elite has been the plight of the world's people pretty generally for thousands of years. The relative freedom and independence Americans enjoyed for the last couple of hundred is not the norm. Jefferson was right, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
Quest
Kaz wrote

QUOTE
The USS Liberty was a another WAR crime by Israel that has gone unpunished.


The war crime was a joint false-flag operation with Israel and the US using unmarked Israeli fighter planes, correct?

QUOTE
Lansky was the finance guy of lucky Luciano so he worked with many Italians and during the war showed he was anti-nazi. He helped secured the deal between the US government (through the ONI forerunner of the CIA) and Luciano to get the docks working for the war effort. Luciano's men and the ONI went into towns in Italy as the Allies freed up Italy. They then installed the local mafia guy into a mayoral type position. This ensured the growth of the Mafia in Italy and America. Someone with a Jewish name who worked with Italians who wanted the American Dream...makes lots of tax free money


I cannot say I disagree with you on this but my understanding is that before Meyer's "career" was over US law enforcement considered him the BIGGEST leader of organzed crime. Do you dispute this? My greater point here is that the days of Luciano are gone as is the Tony Saprano Hollywood version of the Mafia. I think here most would agree that the most powerful mafia in the US is the Russian mafia and even that is a misnomer.
The RED Mafiya
by Robert I. Friedman
http://www.amazon.com/Red-Mafiya-Robert-I-...n/dp/0425186873

QUOTE
Prescott Bush was charged for helping the Nazi's in gaining finance during War time was he involved with Lansky?


I am making no such connection between Prescott Bush and Lansky. I was specifically asking if you were aware of Prescott Bush and his business cronies were involved with Hitler's rise to power. Do you acknowledge this?

QUOTE
Trotsky was initially with Lenin and Stalin but opposed their use of violence to assert their authority. He was a part of the revolution from the 19th century and even when exiled for his stand against Stalinism he was assassinated in Mexico. I'd say he had little to do with the millions that Lenin and Stalin killed/tortured/starved etc.


So, your claim is that the Bolshevik Revelution was organic and was not inspired, finaced and lead by any outside influence, corrrect?

QUOTE
Your argument seems to be lets find a jewish name and ignore all the anglo saxons/italians/russians involved in atrocities and blame it all on the JEWS as they have total mind control of everyone with a Jewish name and render all other races stupid as they blindly follow zionists interests.


My arguement isn't an arguement, at all, it's an observation that MANY have made. That FACT that MOST of the Bolshivik leaders were Jewish, were helped financially by the US and Trotsky himself was from the US. Are you aware of this? All, Trotsky, Stalin and others changed their names. Why?
Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution
http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/bo...tion/index.html

You are also aware that the Bolshevik Genocide resulted in the killing and starving of 40-60 million people including Russians, Ukranians, Latvians and Lithuanians, correct? I am NOT simply focusing on Jewsih names but rather I am trying to flesh out the picture, something our media refuses to do. Why is that I wonder?

Question, can you think of any reason that the genocide of 40-60 million people, the biggest Holocaust ever, the Bolshevik Genocide, is virtually NEVER discussed in any detail in the US media?

Lastly, Kaz, I am not "picking on jews". I have a jewish friend and black friends (all are aware of 911, btw). I am also part American Indian as well. You made a remark in another post regarding Holocaust "revisionism" and I merely wanted to see if the gate swung both ways with you. My point is that like 911, the REAL story of the Bolshevik genocide is just starting to come to light and it has been purposely misnamed, ignored and whitewashed.
The Soviet Story
http://www.sovietstory.com/
kaz
QUOTE (Quest @ Nov 28 2010, 03:40 PM) *
Kaz wrote



The war crime was a joint false-flag operation with Israel and the US using unmarked Israeli fighter planes, correct?



I cannot say I disagree with you on this but my understanding is that before Meyer's "career" was over US law enforcement considered him the BIGGEST leader of organzed crime. Do you dispute this? My greater point here is that the days of Luciano are gone as is the Tony Saprano Hollywood version of the Mafia. I think here most would agree that the most powerful mafia in the US is the Russian mafia and even that is a misnomer.
The RED Mafiya
by Robert I. Friedman
http://www.amazon.com/Red-Mafiya-Robert-I-...n/dp/0425186873



I am making no such connection between Prescott Bush and Lansky. I was specifically asking if you were aware of Prescott Bush and his business cronies were involved with Hitler's rise to power. Do you acknowledge this?



So, your claim is that the Bolshevik Revelution was organic and was not inspired, finaced and lead by any outside influence, corrrect?



My arguement isn't an arguement, at all, it's an observation that MANY have made. That FACT that MOST of the Bolshivik leaders were Jewish, were helped financially by the US and Trotsky himself was from the US. Are you aware of this? All, Trotsky, Stalin and others changed their names. Why?
Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution
http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/bo...tion/index.html

You are also aware that the Bolshevik Genocide resulted in the killing and starving of 40-60 million people including Russians, Ukranians, Latvians and Lithuanians, correct? I am NOT simply focusing on Jewsih names but rather I am trying to flesh out the picture, something our media refuses to do. Why is that I wonder?

Question, can you think of any reason that the genocide of 40-60 million people, the biggest Holocaust ever, the Bolshevik Genocide, is virtually NEVER discussed in any detail in the US media?

Lastly, Kaz, I am not "picking on jews". I have a jewish friend and black friends (all are aware of 911, btw). I am also part American Indian as well. You made a remark in another post regarding Holocaust "revisionism" and I merely wanted to see if the gate swung both ways with you. My point is that like 911, the REAL story of the Bolshevik genocide is just starting to come to light and it has been purposely misnamed, ignored and whitewashed.
The Soviet Story
http://www.sovietstory.com/


I have a friend with similar views to you and like you he came from an Education system during the cold war period where the only history learnt was about their own countries and some of their allies. Fortunately we were taught about many countries histories but even then the Stalin years were kept secret for a long time after he died. But many of the discoveries about the US/Israel/Soviets etc history is old news to me. People like Trotsky came from a secular family so didn't follow jewish religion, if you read books from the 19/20 century you will see especially in Russia that the Jews were treated like the US treated its blacks. Many people have changed their surnames to get away from their heritage and to try and stop being treated as a stereotype. Revolutions are made of all types of people such as the ideologues(true believers, Trotsky), the dictators(Lenin,Stalin) and mixtures in between and many Jewish people would have joined in the hope of getting a better deal out of society.
Few revolutions are non violent and if you look at the start of any type of new politics being imposed on the populace there is quite a bit of indoctrination/coercion and violence. The revolutions that seem to succeed are the ones that afford some respect and freedom for the masses.
I believe three US millionaires helped finance the Russian Revolution but I still don't exactly know what motivated them to do so. Henry Ford,Walt Disney, Prince Edward were Nazi Sympathisers and Prescott Bush was part of a financial group which helped finance to flow to Hitler as were many others. There were Nazi parties and Communist Parties formed around the world as the masses saw this as a way out from years of slavery,low paid,sickly work or being repressed by dictators,Kings etc.
So early 20th Century world had a choice of Democracy,Communism and eventually Nazi/Fascism or more of the same. And we know it took two world wars and the collapse of empires but instead of a brave new world we got the cold war and the build up of the Industrial military complex ruling the west to this day. I don't believe they are for any religion they are more like the dictators,right wing fascists who like to keep the profits rolling in to the upper class,keep socialism and unionism suppressed to maintain the profits,are anti decentralisation,anti union,anti environmental laws, anti any government/taxes but many times they screw up and things like the depression/the Global Fraud Crisis means that socialist schemes get to be implemented as they know if the totally cut off the masses then the revolution of free will will happen
Quest
QUOTE (kaz @ Nov 29 2010, 04:04 AM) *
I have a friend with similar views to you and like you he came from an Education system during the cold war period where the only history learnt was about their own countries and some of their allies. Fortunately we were taught about many countries histories but even then the Stalin years were kept secret for a long time after he died. But many of the discoveries about the US/Israel/Soviets etc history is old news to me. People like Trotsky came from a secular family so didn't follow jewish religion, if you read books from the 19/20 century you will see especially in Russia that the Jews were treated like the US treated its blacks. Many people have changed their surnames to get away from their heritage and to try and stop being treated as a stereotype. Revolutions are made of all types of people such as the ideologues(true believers, Trotsky), the dictators(Lenin,Stalin) and mixtures in between and many Jewish people would have joined in the hope of getting a better deal out of society.
Few revolutions are non violent and if you look at the start of any type of new politics being imposed on the populace there is quite a bit of indoctrination/coercion and violence. The revolutions that seem to succeed are the ones that afford some respect and freedom for the masses.
I believe three US millionaires helped finance the Russian Revolution but I still don't exactly know what motivated them to do so. Henry Ford,Walt Disney, Prince Edward were Nazi Sympathisers and Prescott Bush was part of a financial group which helped finance to flow to Hitler as were many others. There were Nazi parties and Communist Parties formed around the world as the masses saw this as a way out from years of slavery,low paid,sickly work or being repressed by dictators,Kings etc.
So early 20th Century world had a choice of Democracy,Communism and eventually Nazi/Fascism or more of the same. And we know it took two world wars and the collapse of empires but instead of a brave new world we got the cold war and the build up of the Industrial military complex ruling the west to this day. I don't believe they are for any religion they are more like the dictators,right wing fascists who like to keep the profits rolling in to the upper class,keep socialism and unionism suppressed to maintain the profits,are anti decentralisation,anti union,anti environmental laws, anti any government/taxes but many times they screw up and things like the depression/the Global Fraud Crisis means that socialist schemes get to be implemented as they know if the totally cut off the masses then the revolution of free will will happen


Kaz, I appreciate your time and patience. I can also see that you are trying to be fair in your replies. But what I am curious of is if your own ethnicity (am I correct to assume you are Jewsish?) may be influencing, at least somewhat, your opinion. First of all, the Bolshevik Genocide was NOT organic, not in the least. Certainly not in the sense that the Bolshevik leaders represented the average Russian and that they finaced and organized themselves. No. Some were not even FROM the Soviet Union. There was funding and organization provided from the USA. Also, I seriously doubt that if the common Russians partaking in the Genocide, er, I mean, Revolution, could forsee what they would be left with - scraps and their country left in shambles run by the NKVD secret police - they would have not taken part in the first place. They were left with nothing but empty promises of freedom with their history and many of their family, freinds and neighbors, as well as their pride, gone.

I don't doubt for a minute that Jews were either descriminated against or treated with some type of animoisty in the Soviet Union, but that is the same in ANY country. Take Israel and it's treatment of non-Jews, as in the case of Arabs living in Israel who share not the same rights on many aspects of life wether they be marital, business or property ownership. Same for blacks in Israel where I read recently of (black) Etheopian Jews were given Depo-Provera to keep them from having children. Need we even discuss Israeli treatment of Palestinians?
Racist birth control? Claims Israel culling Ethiopian Jews
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oljrngl5Iwc

Last but not least, what do you make of this woman's proclamation of "Europeans have not learned to be multicultural"and "Europe will not survive unless they go multicultural"? Maybe it's just me but she stikes me as an arrogant, condescending air-head lacking an understanding of her host country's history, not to mention the fact she sounds like a racist. What I am curious is what do you make of her claim and what do you look for in Israel regarding multiculturalism? Will Israel also become multi-cultural?
Jews play a "leading role" in promoting multiculturalism in Europe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJuaTIZdUKc

What I am getting at is, why were Jews overly-represented in the Bolshevik heirarchy in the killing of mostly Christian Russian, Lithuanian, Ukranian and Latvian civilians? I mean, 40-60 million human beings killed because of "discrimination" for crying-out-loud. Also, why do many Jews, like the woman in the above video, push for multi-culturalism everywhere, while ignoring racism in Israel?

Thank you for your patience and understanding. Maybe both of us can learn something from this exchange.
Quest
I finally fixed the links in the above post. Readers, please try the links again.
Quest
Sanders wrote,
QUOTE
First, sure they have an army. They have OUR army, they have Britain's army, they have Israel's army. And they don't even have to pay for them. They can do their song and dance and have any of those armies do about anything they want for them. They also control the pursestrings of the governments, so that's even more control. As for Zionists "knowing", it all depends on how high up you go. I think you can compare the situation now with the situation during WWII. Certainly many high ranking Jews and Jewish bankers understood what was happening - and maybe supported and helped finance Hitler because they supported a Jewish homeland - and that view explains perfectly why the term 'Holocaust' came to describe it, not sure if you know, but Holocaust means "Sacrifice by fire", "burnt offering" (not kidding). But I really do think the whole Zionist movement was like any movement ... they, and by "they" I mean both "Jewish" and "Christian" power brokers see an opportunity and exploit it. Just like they took the teachings of Karl Marx and got behind it to throw out the Czar and create a Totalitarian state. The identity of two leading Christian Zionists in the late 19th century, Henry Drummond and Charles Taze Russell (both very elite families), is a giveaway. It's very grey and the reality gradually comes to mirror the fraud ... so you can't even say it's like this or like that. But it's definitely not black and white, and to blame it all on the Zionists sort of misses the mark IMO. Classic "Zionists", those who are in it simply to expand Israeli property and homogeneity and kill off the Arabs, are being used on a fundamental level. There's a larger agenda here.


We are actually starting to sound like we are on the same page Sanders, but you just don't know it yet.

I agree, that they have our army,but not that they control it but rather they agree to "go-along-to-get-along" as I stated earlier. In other words, the bankers more than likely, don't give a crap about genocide, so long as they profit and hold on to their wealth. I believe they just have no problem with war and death and it's always been that way. They also latch onto phoney or contrived issues as a way of proffiting and garnering yet more power. Wow. I just had an epiphany. Wasn't it a Rothschld that had a bird's eye view of the WTC towers going down on 911 while on their honeymoon??? This was mentioned in the Documentary, "Ring of Power".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjrhkKFuOT0

Also,
Before 9/11 guess what 2 countries DID NOT have a Rothschild owned and started Central Bank; Afghanistan and Iraq.
http://www.iamthewitness.com/listeners/Wha...entral.Bank.htm

Sanders, I have to disagree with you that Zionists are not in charge. They are and they have Rothschild's backing as he is also Zionist. Zionism's push for multi-culturalism is also rampant in the USA and Eurpe big-time which is something you may be missing since you no oonger live in the USA. We certainly do a large WASP contingent who have gladly latched onto the ZIonists coat-tails, so as you say, it's not strictly a Zionist thing. I agree on that. But what is starting to come into view is how the elite and powerful in general operate - it's all about fasion. Many elite see it as fashionable to control life and death and command huge armies. The Zionists are an EXTREME case of elitists and others around them either admire them, or fear them, or both. Rothschild IS Zionist, as are the Neocons, Bush, and manny others who are Chrstian. It's about wealth, fashion and power and the ability to decide life and death. The current groups in vogue are the Zionists and Christian ZIonists. That's what it is about for the most part.
Sanders
Quest, I think you give the Rothschilds too much credit. And I wouldn't believe everything you hear from "Ring of Power" ... much of that flick is off the mark.

But you are correct, a lot of what this war on Islam is about is bashing them to smithereens and then rebuilding them to the western model. Islam has rules against usury, which prevents western bankers from getting a foothold there. Afghanistan and Iraq now have western style central banks. (Since 2004 I think.) I wouldn't say that the Rothschilds own them, I'm sure they don't ... they have some piece of them, as do other high ranking global corporate elite.

Couldn't rattle off their names, but many of them were probably on the steering committee of the last Bilderberg meeting, if you can dig up a list.
biggrin.gif
Quest
QUOTE (Sanders @ Dec 1 2010, 04:02 AM) *
Quest, I think you give the Rothschilds too much credit. And I wouldn't believe everything you hear from "Ring of Power" ... much of that flick is off the mark.

But you are correct, a lot of what this war on Islam is about is bashing them to smithereens and then rebuilding them to the western model. Islam has rules against usury, which prevents western bankers from getting a foothold there. Afghanistan and Iraq now have western style central banks. (Since 2004 I think.) I wouldn't say that the Rothschilds own them, I'm sure they don't ... they have some piece of them, as do other high ranking global corporate elite.

Couldn't rattle off their names, but many of them were probably on the steering committee of the last Bilderberg meeting, if you can dig up a list.
biggrin.gif


I am NOT giving "Ring of Power" too much credit. The fact is multi-culturalism is being pushed down our throats by a Zionist-led media and Hollywood, and Zionists along with Christian-Zionists run the military. Can I make it any more clear?
Sanders
QUOTE (Quest @ Dec 4 2010, 11:08 PM) *
I am NOT giving "Ring of Power" too much credit. That fact is multi-culturalism is being pushed down our throats by a Zionist-led media and Hollywood, and Zionists along with Christian-Zionists run the military. Can I make it any more clear?


No, I agree with you on that. But I wouldn't believe anything in Ring of Power without double-checking. The claim that a Rothschild had a ringside seat in Manhattan sounds bogus to me. Maybe it's true, I don't know.
Quest
QUOTE (Sanders @ Dec 1 2010, 05:19 AM) *
No, I agree with you on that. But I wouldn't believe anything in Ring of Power without double-checking. The claim that a Rothschild had a ringside seat in Manhattan sounds bogus to me. Maybe it's true, I don't know.



Point taken. Still, for what it's worth, it sounds like Lynn Forrester and Evelyn DeRothschild moved into NYC just months before 911 according to Ring of Power. Watch the 1st minute.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb-6PRcTmuM...layer_embedded#!

Then watch the follow video. No, I do not believe in "reptilians" but Icke has an interesting take on the ritualistic part of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx84LSJMxWk...layer_embedded#!

http://factsnotfairies.blogspot.com/2009/0...s-new-wife.html

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-90188863.html
Article date:August 1, 2002
QUOTE
Alas, after two major successes, Rothschild's most recent enterprise went the way of all dot-coins. But Rothschild, who had everything but love during the go-go Nineties, has now found wedded bliss--which came with a tide, to boot. Since her marriage 18 months ago to Sir Evelyn de Rothschild, that's Lady de Rothschild to you. But here's the most envy-provoking part: She also has acquired what has been called the most beautiful apartment in New York.

Sitting down with her on a recent afternoon in the new pad--an 18th-floor duplex in River House that was previously owned by Carter Burden and Libet Johnson--it's hard to begrudge her the excess of good fortune, thanks to her affability and occasional self-deprecations. (The Chateau Lafitte she pours--"the family wine," as she calls it--and the heaping bowl of beluga don't hurt, either.)
Sanders
OK sure, I'll watch that.
Sanders
She's right. Evelyn Rothschild did purchase an 18th storey apartment at Riverhouse in Manhattan. Kissinger has a place in the same building, and the Obamas apparently chose Rothschild's decorator.

(Article in Huffington Post.)
Quest
QUOTE (Sanders @ Dec 1 2010, 02:06 PM) *
She's right. Evelyn Rothschild did purchase an 18th storey apartment at Riverhouse in Manhattan. Kissinger has a place in the same building, and the Obamas apparently chose Rothschild's decorator.

(Article in Huffington Post.)


I believe the main cast of characters are the Rothschild/Zionist/New World Order faction. That is who did 911.

cool.gif
Sanders
salute.gif

I don't know what shocked me (though didn't surprise me) more, that Kissinger lives in the same building or that the Obamas were on such good terms with the Rothschilds that they recommended their decorator to them ... and that the Rothschilds took their advice ... back in 2001 nonetheless. Wild.
Quest
QUOTE (Sanders @ Dec 2 2010, 02:29 AM) *
salute.gif

I don't know what shocked me (though didn't surprise me) more, that Kissinger lives in the same building or that the Obamas were on such good terms with the Rothschilds that they recommended their decorator to them ... and that the Rothschilds took their advice ... back in 2001 nonetheless. Wild.


No such thing as "coincidences" in this shithole.

Like I said, it was so obvious we kept ignoring it, even to the point of stepping over it. The faction that did 911 was the Rothschild/Zionist/New World Order contingent. Hitler was working with Zionists to move Jews to Palestine to create Israel. Zionist run Hollywood and media which is largely owned by Rothschild (Zionist)and Israeli sympathizer Murdoch. ZIonist (the brains) and Chrstiantian Zionists (the brawn) run the Pentagon and Freemasonry provides the ritualistic/occultist glue that binds the mess. That is what is going on. salute.gif
kaz
QUOTE (Quest @ Nov 29 2010, 10:55 PM) *
Kaz, I appreciate your time and patience. I can also see that you are trying to be fair in your replies. But what I am curious of is if your own ethnicity (am I correct to assume you are Jewsish?) may be influencing, at least somewhat, your opinion. First of all, the Bolshevik Genocide was NOT organic, not in the least. Certainly not in the sense that the Bolshevik leaders represented the average Russian and that they finaced and organized themselves. No. Some were not even FROM the Soviet Union. There was funding and organization provided from the USA. Also, I seriously doubt that if the common Russians partaking in the Genocide, er, I mean, Revolution, could forsee what they would be left with - scraps and their country left in shambles run by the NKVD secret police - they would have not taken part in the first place. They were left with nothing but empty promises of freedom with their history and many of their family, freinds and neighbors, as well as their pride, gone.

I don't doubt for a minute that Jews were either descriminated against or treated with some type of animoisty in the Soviet Union, but that is the same in ANY country. Take Israel and it's treatment of non-Jews, as in the case of Arabs living in Israel who share not the same rights on many aspects of life wether they be marital, business or property ownership. Same for blacks in Israel where I read recently of (black) Etheopian Jews were given Depo-Provera to keep them from having children. Need we even discuss Israeli treatment of Palestinians?
Racist birth control? Claims Israel culling Ethiopian Jews
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oljrngl5Iwc

Last but not least, what do you make of this woman's proclamation of "Europeans have not learned to be multicultural"and "Europe will not survive unless they go multicultural"? Maybe it's just me but she stikes me as an arrogant, condescending air-head lacking an understanding of her host country's history, not to mention the fact she sounds like a racist. What I am curious is what do you make of her claim and what do you look for in Israel regarding multiculturalism? Will Israel also become multi-cultural?
Jews play a "leading role" in promoting multiculturalism in Europe
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJuaTIZdUKc

What I am getting at is, why were Jews overly-represented in the Bolshevik heirarchy in the killing of mostly Christian Russian, Lithuanian, Ukranian and Latvian civilians? I mean, 40-60 million human beings killed because of "discrimination" for crying-out-loud. Also, why do many Jews, like the woman in the above video, push for multi-culturalism everywhere, while ignoring racism in Israel?

Thank you for your patience and understanding. Maybe both of us can learn something from this exchange.



No I am not Jewish but it shouldn't matter. How many major revolutions in the last 400 years have been solely "ORGANIC". eg: The American revolution had considerable French involvement. Marxism/ Communism was a 19th century idea of Karl Marx a German who lived mostly in London. This influenced people like Lenin,Trotsky and Stalin,some finance but no military support came from the west in the 1917 revolution as they were pre occupied in WWl.
The Bolsheviks put their own version of Marxism into place which was basically anti-capitalist (some say anti-jewish), anti religion,anti freedom and extremely violent run by psycho dictators Lenin and Stalin. Combine this with the other 19th century idea that exploded onto the world stage....Darwinism and Eugenics which along with Marxism ended up being misinterpreted by Lenin,Stalin and Hitler. Have you heard of Eugenics?
So many new ideas abounded and people were looking for a way out from servitude,blatant racism,sexism,child labour,corrupt royalty etc. Like the Germans,the Russians would have hoped for a better world after getting rid of their Tsar. Had Hitler and Stalin not been psychotic mass murders then world history could have been vastly different.
Yes the Jewish state does treat Palestinians in an apartheid way,stripping them of their land,killing their people. I believe the world should step in and turn Palestine/Israel into one democratic state with Jerusalem owned by the worlds people so no one religion can lay claim to it. Genetically Jews and Palestinians are almost indistinguishable.

Well the Earth the only planet we live on is.....Multicultural and is inhabited by one species of Human...Us. I don't really want to live in a culture that hasn't the maturity to respect other cultures. If your pro multicultural you can't be racist as race is defined by singular skin colour or culture and trying to keep it that way by usually thinking your race is superior to everyone else's. I hope Israel does become multicultural just like the US is and shortly to be dominated by hispanic mexicans who hopefully won't be scared of everything like the current anglo saxons are.
The Soviet genocide I thought was around 20 million. 10 million starved to death in the Ukraine many others were sent to their deaths in Siberia,many obviously executed and tortured. And yes they were anti everything except the stalin/communist line.
Why are Christians ignoring Mugabe's racism? Why did Christians ignore Apartheid in Sth Africa or the US? Why did Christians outside of Ireland ignore the IRA?
You can't blame someone living in Europe and hoping for Multiculturalism for the disgusting behaviour of Israel. The majority of people on Earth hate what is going on in Israel but like Nth Korea no one wants to do anything because they are Nuclear armed.
Sanders
OK, I get that and while one half of me is in agreement, another side of me is hesitant to put things in those terms because calling them 'Zionists' infers that creating a homeland for the Jews is somehow the goal here. That is a means to an end. IMO.

I take my hat off Quest that you are prescient to mention the Christian Zionist element in all this.

I think one of the most revealing facts among all the research that one can do regarding the elite and the road we are tragically being herded down right now in the world is that the leading Christian Zionists in England and America at the beginning of the movement in the 19th century were Henry Drummond and Charles Taze Russell.

Both are very very elite and well-connected families, Samuel Russell dominated the opium trade in China in his day. FDR's grandfather Warren Delano ran the Russell company as manager of operations in China, and other wealthy tycoons got their start working for the Russells. Abiel Low worked for them and the Lows were prominent investors and supporters of Columbia University ... which is almost as famous for its production of intelligence spooks as Yale is. Elihu Yale worked for the British Dutch East India Company doing the same thing as Samuel Russell did (selling opium to the Chinese) a century and a half earlier, while Skull and Bones fraternity at Yale was co-founded by another Russell, a cousin of Samuel's, William H. Russell. The 3rd university which is well known for producing "spooks", Princeton, had another Russell partner for a supporter/financier, John Cleves Green.

This article wasn't my source for this, but talks about the same thing ... (I should also note that many Russells were allegedly obsessed with the occult.)
http://sci.tech-archive.net/Archive/sci.me...7/msg00119.html

This Russell business goes even deeper, for one of the first Templars was a knight known as 'Rozell'.

Russell is a Norman name, and like Roosevelt, Ross, Rus, Roth, Rothschild, Rothes (as in the Leslie Earles of Rothes), Rosslyn Chapel, the 'Rus'/'Ros' in all these names means 'RED', as in the "red-haired giants", the Red Sea (which the Black Sea may have really been called, i.e. the unidentified "Erythraean Sea" of ancient cartography), and most tellingly, the Red Crown of Egypt (Deshret). Is this why the stripes of sails of Phoenician and Viking ships, as well as red stripes of the US and earlier British East India Company flags and the cross of the Templars, and allegedly the banner of the Tribe of Dan and maybe even the Hinomaru of Japan and the Chinese Forbidden City, are red? Who knows. Undoubtedly it is the true meaning of the "Rose Line", and hence "rosy cross" or Rosicrucian.

Then you come to Charles Taze Russell, founder of the Watchtower society, early Christian Zionist and proponent of "end-times" doctrine.

What of the Drummonds? They were powerful bankers in Britain, founders of Drummonds Bank which was absorbed into the Royal Bank of Scotland in 1924. The Drummonds descend from George Unvern prince of Hungary, who accompanied Margaret the future Queen to Scotland from Hungary following the return of the English throne to the Saxons and then the seizure of it by William the Conqueror. George was an Arpad, meaning he was of the ruling Hungarian leaders of the Magyars who were descended from Attila the Hun. The Magyars had moved into Hungary generations before along with Kabar tribes from Khazaria, and George's brother who became king there was named Solomon, while Margaret's son by Malcom of Scotland was named David ... two very conspicuously Hebrew names for the time. The Arpads were tightly connected by marriage to the family of Vladimir I ruler of the Kievan Rus (George's mother was the daughter of Vladimir), and I mention it because, well, there's that 'Rus' term again, and the family coat of arms of Vlad (which may or may not be connected) is a single big Star of David on a blue background - practically the Israeli flag.

These families weren't Jewish by any stretch, if anything they were pagan converts to Christianity. (Margaret, whose maternal lineage is in question btw, was even canonized by the Church.) But more importantly, these Vladimirovs and Arpads were ruthless clan leaders of conquering "Hunnic" (the definition of what that means is vague) and "Varangian" (kind of like a Viking) tribes.

This, along with the Norman/Templar/"Red" ancestral roots of the Russells is the key in my mind to understanding what's really behind Zionism as a movement. I and a few others call it "dragon" culture. It's no accident that the country of Georgia, named for St. George the dragon-slayer, is a dogged Zionist supporter and flies the old flag of Crusader Jerusalem featuring the Templar red cross.

Is there some connection between these people and the Jews? The Templars were the first multi-national bankers, and due to their power and status as the "pope's militia" they were able to get away with charging interest (usury). (They accepted "gifts" in return for making loans.) Normally, this was forbidden for Christians (beginning with the 1st Council of Nicaea) and Muslims alike. Jews were permitted within the rules of Judaism (as per Deuteronomy) to charge usury to gentiles. This situation essentially put Jewish money lenders and Templar bankers in the same business together. Since the Templars are suspected to have followed something like Catharism or Kabbalah, they may have been secretly anti-Catholic as well, and were indeed charged with heresy and banned in the 14th century.

From there refugee Templars joined their brothers and other Christian Orders in Spain and Portugal, teaming up with Jewish merchants there to fund explorations and navigate the world in the "Age of Discovery", in which the trade routes were established. The Jews were run out of Spain during the inquisition, and I suspect many Templar decendents and heirs went with them - largely to England and Holland where the Catholic Church had lost most of its authority by that time. This is around the time that Henry VIII made usury legal in England (1545), and 50 years later the British and Duth East India Companies, the first Corporations, were off and running, this time mirroring the same partnership which had been so fruitful in Spain and Portugal but with the "Templars" wearing new clothes yet again - this time as Freemasons.

That's sort of simplistic and maybe even a bit speculative, but a valid overview in my opinion, and when you then notice that the Russells made their money in the same way that the British East India Company did (and that a number of American tycoons were from families that had been involved with those companies), the connections are hard to ignore.

I'm not trying to invalidate anything you're saying Quest, just remarking on some hidden history and possible deeper meanings involved.
Quest
QUOTE (Sanders @ Dec 2 2010, 03:21 PM) *
I'm not trying to invalidate anything you're saying Quest, just remarking on some hidden history and possible deeper meanings involved.



No problem, Sanders. We are merely trying to flesh this thing out and in debate we can do just that. handsdown.gif

Another item I came across in the last few years that may be of interest is the apparant CIA creation of the modern day Christian Zionist movement here in the US.

What is Christian Zionism?
http://notinkansas.us/monkeys.html
QUOTE
What Is Christian Zionism?
Ten Questions and Answers
By Irving Wesley Hall
1. When you speak of Christian Zionists, can you give us some American examples?
That’s easy because the Christian Zionist movement is almost 100% “Made in the USA.” It was a fringe movement inside American Christianity until the 1970’s. Nowadays it is hard to name one prominent televangelist who isn’t a Christian Zionist. Many leading Republican politicians pursue its agenda as well. The Reverend s Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, and Jerry Falwell are Christian Zionists—or dispensationalists—as their theology is called. But we can get into that later. Prominent Christian Zionist politicians include Republicans Tom DeLay, Ralph Reed, and President George W. Bush.
2. You mean all of those men agree on religion?
They may have differences. All Christians do. But they agree on at least three theological points with powerful political implications:
1. unconditional support for Israel’s hawks,
2. the imminence of the final war of Armageddon, and
3. the belief that born-again Christians will go to Heaven without dying in what is called the Rapture.



http://www.takeoverworld.info/cbn.html

QUOTE
Christian Zionism, CBN and other groups
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/gw/1581
This October 12, 2005 GroupWatch article does not directly state that Robertson and his friends are a private function of the CIA and the US military, and underground ex-Nazis and other fascists, but gives many examples.

relevant links: Council for National Policy links, CNP picture, CIA-Death Squads,

This included supporting Nicaraguan Contras and Afghani and Saudi Contras, the muj and Al-Qaeda.

Robertson and CBN can be seen bluntly as a CIA psychological warfare "religion", which works with military "counterinsurgency" experts to crush indigenous rights and "guerilla" groups. To crush freedom in the name of freedom, and to starve people in the name of humanitarian relief.

Some of Robertson's friends in his network of "Christian charities" have privately admitted being CIA. (see bottom "I was detailed to Berkeley" "I invented Jesus freaks.")

Christian Zionism is just one aspect of this, but "selling God" [using the Lord's Name in vain, literally] is an ingenious (and ancient) approach for fundraising and running and providing cover for and observing parts of private Intelligence operations that perhaps the govt wants to set aside due to legal issues. (Robertson close involvement with Contra operations in Guatemala and Honduras, and his "personal friendship" with Ollie North, means logically that he was also tied to the explosion of crack cocaine in America.)


QUOTE
Robertson interviewed and apparently has a relationship with fmr CIA director Ray Cline, who was involved with CIA psywar against the publics of Europe and the USA (run by a Nazi SS agent, Reinhard Gehlen), as well as played a role in Operation Gladio, 40 years of FAKE "Left wing" murderous terrorist bombings staged by the CIA and NATO using underground fascists in Europe. This is now lightly admitted by the CIA, starting in 1975 by William Colby, who was later found dead in a river with his dinner half eaten on the table, and with later FOIA "leaks" in 2000 and 2001.
1992 BBC video http://www.Takeoverworld.info/vid.html#gladio


http://www.theunjustmedia.com/Christian%20...m%20defined.htm
Introduction: Christian Zionism Defined

QUOTE
At its simplest, Christian Zionism has been defined as 'Christian support for Zionism.'1 In Der Judenstaat, published in 1896, Theodor Herzl forcefully articulated the aspirations of Jewish Zionists for their own homeland, although the Zionist dream was largely nurtured and shaped by Christian Zionists long before it was able to inspire widespread Jewish support in the 1940's.2

At the First Zionist Congress which Herzl convened a year later in Basle, the Zionist aspiration was formulated in a call for a, 'publicly secured and legally assured homeland for the Jews in Palestine.'3 At the 27th Zionist Congress held in Jerusalem in 1968, Zionism was defined in terms of five principles:


QUOTE
Contemporary British Christian leaders such as Derek Prince10, David Pawson11, Lance Lambert12, Walter Riggans13, along with Americans like Jerry Falwell14, Pat Robertson15, Hal Lindsey16, Mike Evans17, Charles Dyer18, John Walvoord19, Dave Hunt20, and the German, Basilea Schlink21, have had considerable influence in popularising an apocalyptic premillennial dispensational eschatology and Zionist vision among Western Christians.
Quest
Kaz wrote
QUOTE
No I am not Jewish but it shouldn't matter. How many major revolutions in the last 400 years have been solely "ORGANIC". eg: The American revolution had considerable French involvement. Marxism/ Communism was a 19th century idea of Karl Marx a German who lived mostly in London. This influenced people like Lenin,Trotsky and Stalin,some finance but no military support came from the west in the 1917 revolution as they were pre occupied in WWl.


True enough but two wrongs do not make a right and you really cannot compare the two events. America was still forming and made up of many groups of people from many European contries whereas the Soviets had defined historical bounderies based on language, culture and religion. The philosophical makeup of the Bolsheviks did NOT reflect the the majority of Soviets whereas early Americans were unified in the rejection of British rule and did not wish to be taxed without representation. Millions were killied in the Soviet Union alone even by your low claim of 20 million. Why? Could it be the Czar refused the Rothschilds' New Worold Oder central bank? Bet on it.

Criminal Rothschilds - Tsar helps Lincoln fight Britain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USGSOViaulc

QUOTE
The Bolsheviks put their own version of Marxism into place which was basically anti-capitalist (some say anti-jewish), anti religion,anti freedom and extremely violent run by psycho dictators Lenin and Stalin. Combine this with the other 19th century idea that exploded onto the world stage


Why the anti-religious stance by the Bolsheviks? The Soviets were largely Chrsistian. What were most of the Bolsheviks? Jewish. Apparently the Bolsheviks could not assimilate so they genocided millions. Does this seem fair? What if it was the other way around? Would it be fair then or do you live by a double standard? Religion bad- atheist genocide of religionists - good. Btw, Kas, I am athesit too but the Bolsheviks were arrogant, egotistical, intolerant, genocidal maniacs who were fueled by hatred of a majority they refused to assimilate with not to mention they helped the hidden agenda of the New World Order who wanted a Rothschilds bank to run the country. Why you cannot see this is beyond me.

QUOTE
....Darwinism and Eugenics which along with Marxism ended up being misinterpreted by Lenin,Stalin and Hitler. Have you heard of Eugenics?


Whatever. That "misinterpretaion" resulted in the genocide of millions of women and children. Eugenics? As part American Indian I am quite familiar with eugenics. I agree, the Wall Street-funded Bolsheviks were involved in eugenics as were the Wall Street funded Hitler Nazis. What's your point? That because the target of cultural racisist Zionist/Christian Zionist elite were peaceful Christian Soviets that "might makes right"? How many Jews did the Christian Soviets kill before the Bolshevik 'Revolution'?

QUOTE
So many new ideas abounded and people were looking for a way out from servitude,blatant racism,sexism,child labour,corrupt royalty etc. Like the Germans,the Russians would have hoped for a better world after getting rid of their Tsar. Had Hitler and Stalin not been psychotic mass murders then world history could have been vastly different.


Poppycock. Hitler was a creation of Prescott Bush and Wall Street. You are trying to create a straw man argument with the Hitler claim. Don't blame Germans for Hitler when Time Magazine called Hitler it's "1938 Man of the Year".

Adolf Hitler, Time Magazines's 1938 Man of the Year
http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauMemorial/TimeCover.html

Regarding the Soviet Tsar, how many millions of Jews did the Tsar kill? The Tsar refused a Rothschild bank running his country. The Wall Street funded and organized Jewish lead Bolsheviks killed between 40-60 million or as you cliam, 20 million. And what about the genocide of Latvians, Lithuanians and Ukranians? What were they guilty of to have millions of them killed???

QUOTE
Yes the Jewish state does treat Palestinians in an apartheid way,stripping them of their land,killing their people. I believe the world should step in and turn Palestine/Israel into one democratic state with Jerusalem owned by the worlds people so no one religion can lay claim to it. Genetically Jews and Palestinians are almost indistinguishable.


On this we agree.

QUOTE
Well the Earth the only planet we live on is.....Multicultural and is inhabited by one species of Human...Us. I don't really want to live in a culture that hasn't the maturity to respect other cultures. If your pro multicultural you can't be racist as race is defined by singular skin colour or culture and trying to keep it that way by usually thinking your race is superior to everyone else's. I hope Israel does become multicultural just like the US is and shortly to be dominated by hispanic mexicans who hopefully won't be scared of everything like the current anglo saxons are.


Are you suggesting that Africans and Chinese should no longer be allowed to be ethnocentric? I mean, didn't the world in the early 1980's basically rally around Africa to rid itself of white rule? Should China be forced to become multi-racial? Question, are you suggesting that the only way for people to be multi-racial is for every country on the planet to open it's borders to all ethnicities? Are you suggesting it's not possible to be accepting of other cultures yet remain ethno-centric within your own borders because you are familiar with your own religion, customs and laws? Not for nothing, Kaz, but you sound racist and extremely intolerant. You need to understand the extreme left and extreme right are virtually one in the same; the nearly touching ends of a line bent to form a ring. These were the Nazis and the Bolsheviks. Do you really think it ironic they had the same paymasters?

http://thy-weapon-of-war.blogspot.com/2010...viet-union.html
QUOTE
1920 - Winston Churchill acknowledges Jewish origin of Communist conspiracy

On February 8, 1920, Winston Churchill expressed his alarm over world developments in an interview published in the Sunday Illustrated Herald, London:

"From the days of Adam (Spartacus) Weishaupt, to those of Karl Marx to those of Trotsky, Bela Kun, Rosa Luxemburg and Emma Goldman. This worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstruction of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence and impossible equality, has been steadily growing.

There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international, and for the most part, atheistic Jews. It is certainly a very great one: it probably outweighs all others. With the notable exception of Lenin, the majority of the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from the Jewish leaders." [3]
kaz
True enough but two wrongs do not make a right and you really cannot compare the two events. America was still forming and made up of many groups of people from many European contries whereas the Soviets had defined historical bounderies based on language, culture and religion. The philosophical makeup of the Bolsheviks did NOT reflect the the majority of Soviets whereas early Americans were unified in the rejection of British rule and did not wish to be taxed without representation. Millions were killied in the Soviet Union alone even by your low claim of 20 million. Why? Could it be the Czar refused the Rothschilds' New Worold Oder central bank? Bet on it.

I was answering your statement about how the russian revolution was heavily influenced from outside. The French revolution came about partly because France nearly went bankrupt supporting the American Revolution that didn't include or give rights to Native Americans or Blacks who remained slaves for nearly a century. How many Native Americans and Slaves were killed after this revolution as the good white christians laid claim to all lands. The British/Spanish and French conquerers had massacred many native civilisations and all in the name of Christianity. I was trying to give you an example of a Revolution that had outside support and established (for better or worse) a new democracy and a secular government.
By the end of the 19th century, the introduction of national taxation systems had ended the Rothschild's policy of operating with a single set of commercial account records, resulting in the various houses gradually going their own separate ways. The coherence that had worked so well for the five brothers and their successor sons had all but disappeared by World War I. In Britain, the introduction of estate taxes resulted in Rothschild inheritors handing over multi-millions to the government and brought an end to the passing down of their great mansions. However, the estate tax relative to the bank and corporate assets was far more detrimental long-term because it restricted growth at a time when publicly owned banks were expanding rapidly with huge resources raised on capital markets.

The decline of the French and British Empires particularly after World War I along with increased nationalization by governments restricted growth potential for the Rothschilds. However, business analysts generally agree that their failure to shift their focus to opportunities in the United States, where the greatest industrial expansion at that time was occurring, is a major factor in the belief that the Rothschild bankers of today are only minor players in the global economy.



Why the anti-religious stance by the Bolsheviks? The Soviets were largely Chrsistian. What were most of the Bolsheviks? Jewish. Apparently the Bolsheviks could not assimilate so they genocided millions. Does this seem fair? What if it was the other way around? Would it be fair then or do you live by a double standard? Religion bad- atheist genocide of religionists - good. Btw, Kas, I am athesit too but the Bolsheviks were arrogant, egotistical, intolerant, genocidal maniacs who were fueled by hatred of a majority they refused to assimilate with not to mention they helped the hidden agenda of the New World Order who wanted a Rothschilds bank to run the country. Why you cannot see this is beyond me.

The Communist party manifesto is anti-religous...read Karl Marx. The Bolsheviks were a faction of the Marxists/Communist party and didn't establish themselves as the majority faction until 1910. And No they weren't all Jewish and certainly didn't promote Judaism....you need to read real history not what someone tells you on You Tube.Lenin and Stalin ruled as paranoid Dictators and killed off their political rivals including Bolsheviks (like Trotsky...a secular jew). Their single minded determination to impose their twisted form of Communism lead them to massacre and starve millions. Communists consistently hated capitalism so wanting a british empire banking conglomerate that was very powerless by WWI to rule their country is just stupid.


Whatever. That "misinterpretaion" resulted in the genocide of millions of women and children. Eugenics? As part American Indian I am quite familiar with eugenics. I agree, the Wall Street-funded Bolsheviks were involved in eugenics as were the Wall Street funded Hitler Nazis. What's your point? That because the target of cultural racisist Zionist/Christian Zionist elite were peaceful Christian Soviets that "might makes right"? How many Jews did the Christian Soviets kill before the Bolshevik 'Revolution'?

For much of the 19th century, Imperial Russia, which included much of Poland, contained the world's largest Jewish population. From Alexander III's reign until the end of Tsarist rule in Russia, many Jews were often restricted to the Jewish Pale of Settlement, and banned from many jobs and locations. They were subject to racist laws, like the May Laws, and were targeted in hundreds of violent anti-Jewish riots, called pogroms, that had unofficial state support. It was during this period that a hoax document alleging a global Jewish conspiracy, "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", was created.

Even though many of the Old Bolsheviks were ethnically Jewish, they sought to uproot Judaism and Zionism and established the Yevsektsiya to achieve this goal. By the end of the 1940s the Communist leadership of the former USSR had liquidated almost all Jewish organizations, with the exception of a few token synagogues. These synagogues were then placed under police surveillance, both openly and through the use of informants.

The campaign of 1948-1953 against so-called "rootless cosmopolitans," the alleged "Doctors' plot," the rise of "Zionology" and subsequent activities of official organizations such as the Anti-Zionist committee of the Soviet public were officially carried out under the banner of "anti-Zionism,", and by the mid-1950s the state persecution of Soviet Jews emerged as a major human rights issue in the West and domestically.



Poppycock. Hitler was a creation of Prescott Bush and Wall Street. You are trying to create a straw man argument with the Hitler claim. Don't blame Germans for Hitler when Time Magazine called Hitler it's "1938 Man of the Year".

Time bases its Man of the Year on who has had the most influence on the world at that time not on what they may or may not have done. If you read Mein Kampf and follow Hitler from 1918 onwards he was horrified that Germany capitulated after WWI and when the economic disasters of the 1920's occurred he blamed this and the Jews for all Germany's problems. And many German people ended up agreeing giving him around 33% of the vote more than most US Presidents get as a % of total voters. And if you read the real history of the holocaust you will find that many Germans willing handed in Jewish names to the SS. Prescott Bush and his banking buddies helped finance a Fritz Thyssen in Germany but to say they created Hitler is just a fantasy.




Are you suggesting that Africans and Chinese should no longer be allowed to be ethnocentric? I mean, didn't the world in the early 1980's basically rally around Africa to rid itself of white rule? Should China be forced to become multi-racial? Question, are you suggesting that the only way for people to be multi-racial is for every country on the planet to open it's borders to all ethnicities? Are you suggesting it's not possible to be accepting of other cultures yet remain ethno-centric within your own borders because you are familiar with your own religion, customs and laws? Not for nothing, Kaz, but you sound racist and extremely intolerant. You need to understand the extreme left and extreme right are virtually one in the same; the nearly touching ends of a line bent to form a ring. These were the Nazis and the Bolsheviks. Do you really think it ironic they had the same paymasters?

Any country that has a democratic/secular country should live by its stated laws and values. The ethnic makeup of who is in charge is immaterial. Especially in a society which respects all culture and allows them to express themselves within that culture and or religion. Sth Africa rid itself of white rule because it was functioning as a white supremacists regime. China has quite a few different races already but under its communist guise it doesn't show much respect to the other cultures.
How can I be Racist and Multicultural? Where is the Mayan,Egyptian,Sumerian,Roman,Greek,Inca,Navaho etc,etc cultures. Cultures and languages come and go some last longer than others either by "Rule by the Sword" or by having some in built fairness which leaves it exposed to the cultures who want everyone to be the same as their war culture. If your culture/religion and laws are strong and fair and you believe in them enough your way of life will last alas we live in a world where apparently belief in their God is so weak that it can be overrun by people of another religion just by them moving in next door. We are one race of people and DNA proves we are physically intertwined ethnically. Lets say Europe and the US go broke and economic refugees end up going to Africa to eke out a living I am sure the majority of Africans would welcome them(except the Mugabes of Africa). Humans want basically the same treatment and respect the world over,culture is just window dressing.

Their is no evidence that NAZI's and Bolsheviks had the same paymasters and Hitler or Stalin would have told off or killed anyone who tried to tell them what to do.
Quest
Kaz wrote
QUOTE
I was answering your statement about how the russian revolution was heavily influenced from outside. The French revolution came about partly because France nearly went bankrupt supporting the American Revolution that didn't include or give rights to Native Americans or Blacks who remained slaves for nearly a century. How many Native Americans and Slaves were killed after this revolution as the good white christians laid claim to all lands. The British/Spanish and French conquerers had massacred many native civilisations and all in the name of Christianity. I was trying to give you an example of a Revolution that had outside support and established (for better or worse) a new democracy and a secular government.


Oh, don't get me wrong here about the fledgling American "Chrsitian" nation, Kaz, I have my problem with Christianity, along with most major religions. As I have mentioned repeatedly, I am part Native American and atheist as well. I agree with you on the above statement.

Kaz wrote
QUOTE
By the end of the 19th century, the introduction of national taxation systems had ended the Rothschild's policy of operating with a single set of commercial account records, resulting in the various houses gradually going their own separate ways. The coherence that had worked so well for the five brothers and their successor sons had all but disappeared by World War I. In Britain, the introduction of estate taxes resulted in Rothschild inheritors handing over multi-millions to the government and brought an end to the passing down of their great mansions. However, the estate tax relative to the bank and corporate assets was far more detrimental long-term because it restricted growth at a time when publicly owned banks were expanding rapidly with huge resources raised on capital markets.

The decline of the French and British Empires particularly after World War I along with increased nationalization by governments restricted growth potential for the Rothschilds. However, business analysts generally agree that their failure to shift their focus to opportunities in the United States, where the greatest industrial expansion at that time was occurring, is a major factor in the belief that the Rothschild bankers of today are only minor players in the global economy


I am not quite sure where you are going with this. Are you claiming the Rothschilds are in effect, "broke" and no longer have any influence in matters of government, particularly, in international affairs they have no influence? Is this your claim?

From Wikipedia
QUOTE
The Rothschild family (known as The House of Rothschild,[1] or more simply as the Rothschilds) is a European family of German Jewish origin that established European banking and finance houses from the late eighteenth century. Five lines of the Austrian branch of the family were elevated into the Austrian nobility, being given hereditary baronies of the Habsburg Empire by Emperor Francis II in 1816. The British branch of the family was elevated into the British nobility by Queen Victoria.[2][3] It has been argued that during the 19th century, the family possessed by far the largest private fortune in the world, and by far the largest fortune in modern history.[3][4]


The Rothschilds own Reuters, The Associated Press and fix the price of gold as well. Does this sound like they have no power and influence?
http://100777.com/node/164
QUOTE
The House of Rothschild bought Reuters news service in the 1800's. Within the last 20 years, Reuters bought the Associated Press. Now the Elite own the two largest wire services in the world, where most newspapers get their news. The Rothschilds have control of all three U.S. Networks, plus other aspects of the recording and mass media industry according to research by Eustice Mullins in his book 'Who Owns the TV Networks'.


In the article below it is claimed that many researchers believe that the Rothchilds worth to be around "500 trillion dollars or about 1/2 the wealth of the entire world". Now, I am not in a position to argue the accuracy of this statement but given the Rothschilds worth at the beginning of the 20th Century, the claim seems not at all far-fetched.
http://tobefree.wordpress.com/2010/05/10/t...-gold%e2%80%a6/

Quest wrote
QUOTE
Why the anti-religious stance by the Bolsheviks? The Soviets were largely Chrsistian. What were most of the Bolsheviks? Jewish. Apparently the Bolsheviks could not assimilate so they genocided millions. Does this seem fair? What if it was the other way around? Would it be fair then or do you live by a double standard? Religion bad- atheist genocide of religionists - good. Btw, Kas, I am athesit too but the Bolsheviks were arrogant, egotistical, intolerant, genocidal maniacs who were fueled by hatred of a majority they refused to assimilate with not to mention they helped the hidden agenda of the New World Order who wanted a Rothschilds bank to run the country. Why you cannot see this is beyond me.


Kaz responded
QUOTE
The Communist party manifesto is anti-religous...read Karl Marx. The Bolsheviks were a faction of the Marxists/Communist party and didn't establish themselves as the majority faction until 1910. And No they weren't all Jewish and certainly didn't promote Judaism....you need to read real history not what someone tells you on You Tube.Lenin and Stalin ruled as paranoid Dictators and killed off their political rivals including Bolsheviks (like Trotsky...a secular jew). Their single minded determination to impose their twisted form of Communism lead them to massacre and starve millions. Communists consistently hated capitalism so wanting a british empire banking conglomerate that was very powerless by WWI to rule their country is just stupid.


Quest answers,
Kaz, my question was rhetorical. I gave you credit you would understand but apparently, that wasn't the case. Yes, the Bolshevik communist party was anti-religious, and brutaly so. I am also aware that the Bolsheviks did not promote Judiasm, just as the Zionsit leaders in Israel are also not religious. I have no idea where you got the idea that I said the Bolsheviks promoted Judaism. You need to actually READ posts before you answer them. Your apology is accepted. wink.gif As to the Bolshviks not wanting a capitalist banking and economic system, we are once again in agreement but what you don't seem to understand is that this transformation from sovereign countries definded by languages, cultures and religions to the one-world-goverment, criminal elite driven New World Order model was never planned as an overnight operation. It was designed so that the elite would not have to actually fight the masses to control them, otherwise it would be very easy to identify their own "leaders" as the enemy in a class war. This class war was designed in such a fashion as to let the common people believe they are masters of their own destiny. It was designed so that the actual elite rulers would simply back movements that will pit one group against another while they, the elite, profit from playing both sides of the fence. It's always been that way. Many assasinations, wars and phony political movements have been and will be used to accomplish the desired goal. Communism, Capitalism and Socilism have meaning only to the lower, unenlightened masses but at the top, where these various ideologies are spawned, it's all about Gangsterism and robber-barons, and one-world-government by any means necessary at any given time. Any solution will suffice. The New World Order CIA will perform coups (see Irans' Shah or Iraq's Saddam) or outright attack a country as it did to Germany in the 1st World War. Also remember the NWO would never build a strawman it couldn't knock down and this is why many say Hitler knowingly worked for the NWO or was a "useful idiot". The German people had every right to be upset about being attacked FIRST in WW1 but the New World Order apparently used that against them when the created Hitler and Nazi Germany. Many of the German people, to their detriment, went along with Hitler but with Time Magazine exulting Hitler as "Man Of The Year" who could fault them in thinking the world was on their side?

Quest wrote
QUOTE
Poppycock. Hitler was a creation of Prescott Bush and Wall Street. You are trying to create a straw man argument with the Hitler claim. Don't blame Germans for Hitler when Time Magazine called Hitler it's "1938 Man of the Year".

Kaz responed

QUOTE
Time bases its Man of the Year on who has had the most influence on the world at that time not on what they may or may not have done. If you read Mein Kampf and follow Hitler from 1918 onwards he was horrified that Germany capitulated after WWI and when the economic disasters of the 1920's occurred he blamed this and the Jews for all Germany's problems. And many German people ended up agreeing giving him around 33% of the vote more than most US Presidents get as a % of total voters. And if you read the real history of the holocaust you will find that many Germans willing handed in Jewish names to the SS. Prescott Bush and his banking buddies helped finance a Fritz Thyssen in Germany but to say they created Hitler is just a fantasy.


Quest responds
Kaz, you seem to have difficulty grasping English. I, as a person in their mid-fifties do not need to have explained to me what "Man Of The Year" means. It means EXACTLY what it says, it means Man Of The Year. Period. Otherwise it would say, "Dictator of the Year" or "Idealogical Nutcase of the Year", etc, etc. For your information, Time Magazine was founded by Henry Luce, a Yale alum and member of the Yale secret society and power broker, Skull and Bones. Skull and Bones also has among its' members, Senator Prescott Bush who helped at least in part to finance Hitler's rise to power, George Bush Sr. former director of the CIA and President of the US, and George Bush Jr. President of the United States. In other words, the same people that in part helped finace Hitler are now calling him, "Man Of The Year". I am sure to this you'll respond, "So?", so I'll save you the effort.

Quest wrote,
QUOTE
Are you suggesting that Africans and Chinese should no longer be allowed to be ethnocentric? I mean, didn't the world in the early 1980's basically rally around Africa to rid itself of white rule? Should China be forced to become multi-racial? Question, are you suggesting that the only way for people to be multi-racial is for every country on the planet to open it's borders to all ethnicities? Are you suggesting it's not possible to be accepting of other cultures yet remain ethno-centric within your own borders because you are familiar with your own religion, customs and laws? Not for nothing, Kaz, but you sound racist and extremely intolerant. You need to understand the extreme left and extreme right are virtually one in the same; the nearly touching ends of a line bent to form a ring. These were the Nazis and the Bolsheviks. Do you really think it ironic they had the same paymasters?

Kaz responed,
QUOTE
Any country that has a democratic/secular country should live by its stated laws and values. The ethnic makeup of who is in charge is immaterial. Especially in a society which respects all culture and allows them to express themselves within that culture and or religion. Sth Africa rid itself of white rule because it was functioning as a white supremacists regime. China has quite a few different races already but under its communist guise it doesn't show much respect to the other cultures.


Quest answers,
Kaz, you stated that, "Any country that has a democratic/secular country should live by its stated laws and values." What on earth does this mean? Surely you aren't suggesting any RELIGIOUS country should NOT be allowed to live by it's own laws and values. Is this what yo are implying? If so, you are indeed quite frightening. The non-religious Bolsheviks with their genocide of millions proved the irreligious have no lock on sanity. To the topic at hand, the Chinese government doesn't represent the Chinese people any more than Bush Jr or Obama represents the US citizens. The Chinese people have not genocied millions around the world. Are you suggested it would be "acceptable" to kill millions of Chinese people because China is not in your words, "multi-cultural"? Not for nothing, Kaz, you are sounded more and more like a flaming, uber-liberal elitist who likes to listen to the sound of their own breath. Better have a look in the mirror and see yourself in about 20 years.

George Bernard Shaw Defends Hitler, Mass Murder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQvsf2MUKRQ
Left-wing roots of the Nazis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4758sBZLC5k...feature=related

Kaz wrote
QUOTE
How can I be Racist and Multicultural? Where is the Mayan,Egyptian,Sumerian,Roman,Greek,Inca,Navaho etc,etc cultures. Cultures and languages come and go some last longer than others either by "Rule by the Sword" or by having some in built fairness which leaves it exposed to the cultures who want everyone to be the same as their war culture. If your culture/religion and laws are strong and fair and you believe in them enough your way of life will last alas we live in a world where apparently belief in their God is so weak that it can be overrun by people of another religion just by them moving in next door. We are one race of people and DNA proves we are physically intertwined ethnically. Lets say Europe and the US go broke and economic refugees end up going to Africa to eke out a living I am sure the majority of Africans would welcome them(except the Mugabes of Africa). Humans want basically the same treatment and respect the world over,culture is just window dressing.


Quest responds,
I definitely think it's possible to be "multi-cultural" and racist; especially if you look at a monolithic race/culture country and see it as a "problem" as opposed to appreciating its' uniqueness and celebrating it's history as long as said country is minding it's own business. Having said that, who wants every country in the world to look like mine? Certainly not me. I WANT to see a diverse world but prefer it within their own law-abiding borders. I do not want my own history and culture wiped out, like my Indian ancestors. The same is for MOST people of the world. Most people, if asked, would want to preserve their own race, culture and history. That is as ancient and human as eating, sleeping and sex. Kaz, what YOU seem to struggle with the difference between "preference" and "predjudice". Because someone wishes to live in the culture they are familiar with does not make them "predjudice", it simply means that is their "preference". However, I suppose if you grew up in a large metropolitain area you might prefer "multi-culturalism" but even then, I'll bet even you have your limits wether they be due to certain culture's customs, religions, or whatever. Question, how willing would you be willing to move to crime-ridden Mexico or Saudi Arabia, or if you were Muslim, or Christian for that matter, how willing would you be to move to Israel? Oh, try asking the average Brit how immigration and multi-culturalism is working out for him. Lastly, what would be wrong with all countries withdrawing to their own borders (as most wish to do already), mind their own business and have their citizens simply visit each other? By saying this I am not implying that no people from any country should never be allowed to move to another country. No. What I am saying however is that it is important to recognize that there is a hidden force that uses the facade of "tolerance" and "multi-culturism" as a means of leveraging politics in a given country in which to control it for its' own selfish, nefarious purposes. My solution of countries withdrawing into their own borders certainly seem a lot more effecient, not to mention humane, than genocidng people around the world because they are not "multi-cultural". As to the immigrant who is trying to "eke out some type of living" as you say, why didn't he fix the problems in the country of his origin? Do you think said immigrant will care any more about his new country when it comes to dealing with corruption or injustice if he fled his old country? Conversly, if justice is what America and the New World Order is actually about, why not fix the corruption and problems in Mexico? We certainly have started enough war overseas in the last 75 years. This begs the question, what is REALLY going on? Again, this is a rhetorical question - what is going on is a class war and immigration as well as multi-cultiralism are but mere tools of the elite NWO.

QUOTE
Their is no evidence that NAZI's and Bolsheviks had the same paymasters and Hitler or Stalin would have told off or killed anyone who tried to tell them what to do.


No evidence? Really?
Professor Antony Sutton: Wall Street & the rise of Hitler 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sCpsq55uic

Antony Sutton - Wall Street & Bolshevik Revolution Part 1.flv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GhPsJCXPqY
http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/wa.../chapter_07.htm
QUOTE
Hitler's 1924 Munich trial yielded evidence that the Nazi Party received $20,000 from Nuremburg industrialists. The most interesting name from this period is that of Emil Kirdorf, who had earlier acted as conduit for financing German involvement in the Bolshevik Revolution.4 Kirdorfs role in financing Hitler was, in his own words:

In 1923 I came into contact for the first time with the National-Socialist movement .... I first heard the Fuehrer in the Essen Exhibition Hall. His clear exposition completely convinced and overwhelmed me. In 1927 I first met the Fuehrer personally. I travelled to Munich and there had a conversation with the Fuehrer in the Bruckmann home. During four and a half hours Adolf Hitler explained to me his programme in de tail. I then begged the Fuehrer to put together the lecture he had given me in the form of a pamphlet. I then distributed this pamphlet in my name in business and manufacturing circles.

Since then I have placed myself completely at the disposition of his movement, Shortly after our Munich conversation, and as a result of the pamphlet which the Fuehrer composed and I distributed, a number of meetings took place between the Fuehrer and leading personalities in the field of indus. try. For the last time before the taking over of power, the leaders of industry met in my house together with Adolf Hitler, Rudolf Hess, Hermann Goering and other leading personalities of the party.5


The above are only part of a MOUNTAIN of evidence, Kaz, if you ever bothered looking for it.
kaz
[

I am not quite sure where you are going with this. Are you claiming the Rothschilds are in effect, "broke" and no longer have any influence in matters of government, particularly, in international affairs they have no influence? Is this your claim?
Not broke just a small fish in a big pond.

27 March 2008 3:28:16 PM AEST by admin ( Leave a comment )

As you are using Wiki you can see this plus many articles telling you no one owns more than 15% of Reuters. Murdoch tried but failed.I don't see Rothschild anywhere. Same for Associated Press. There is no proof Rothschild own these media outlets other than on websites occupied with the Protocols of Zion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuters


In the article below it is claimed that many researchers believe that the Rothchilds worth to be around "500 trillion dollars or about 1/2 the wealth of the entire world". Now, I am not in a position to argue the accuracy of this statement but given the Rothschilds worth at the beginning of the 20th Century, the claim seems not at all far-fetched.
http://tobefree.wordpress.com/2010/05/10/t...-gold%e2%80%a6/



Yes it is far fetched.


Quest answers,
Kaz, my question was rhetorical. I gave you credit you would understand but apparently, that wasn't the case. Yes, the Bolshevik communist party was anti-religious, and brutaly so. I am also aware that the Bolsheviks did not promote Judiasm, just as the Zionsit leaders in Israel are also not religious. I have no idea where you got the idea that I said the Bolsheviks promoted Judaism. You need to actually READ posts before you answer them. Your apology is accepted. wink.gif As to the Bolshviks not wanting a capitalist banking and economic system, we are once again in agreement but what you don't seem to understand is that this transformation from sovereign countries definded by languages, cultures and religions to the one-world-goverment, criminal elite driven New World Order model was never planned as an overnight operation. It was designed so that the elite would not have to actually fight the masses to control them, otherwise it would be very easy to identify their own "leaders" as the enemy in a class war. This class war was designed in such a fashion as to let the common people believe they are masters of their own destiny. It was designed so that the actual elite rulers would simply back movements that will pit one group against another while they, the elite, profit from playing both sides of the fence. It's always been that way. Many assasinations, wars and phony political movements have been and will be used to accomplish the desired goal. Communism, Capitalism and Socilism have meaning only to the lower, unenlightened masses but at the top, where these various ideologies are spawned, it's all about Gangsterism and robber-barons, and one-world-government by any means necessary at any given time. Any solution will suffice. The New World Order CIA will perform coups (see Irans' Shah or Iraq's Saddam) or outright attack a country as it did to Germany in the 1st World War. Also remember the NWO would never build a strawman it couldn't knock down and this is why many say Hitler knowingly worked for the NWO or was a "useful idiot". The German people had every right to be upset about being attacked FIRST in WW1 but the New World Order apparently used that against them when the created Hitler and Nazi Germany. Many of the German people, to their detriment, went along with Hitler but with Time Magazine exulting Hitler as "Man Of The Year" who could fault them in thinking the world was on their side?

Yes rich and powerful individuals do try and back many political movements usually ones which feather their business interests. Rupert Murdoch is a good example of someone backing left and right wing governments. But the 20th Century was not only a fight for resources and greed it was a fight for ideas and unfortunately humans tend to sought them out through revolutions or wars. Thats why NO one should be paid more than a million a year as a wage. If you can't live on that you shouldn't be in charge of anything. The political ideas gained popular acceptance as the 19th century was dominated by the British Empire, Royal Serfdom, some democracy and a few dictators. Most of these were dismantled by the end of WW1 with the Rothschild having so much tied up with this empire its power and influence declined with it. There is NO evidence Hitler worked for anyone and he clearly spelt out and stuck to his agenda long before becoming a political force in Germany.






Quest responds
Kaz, you seem to have difficulty grasping English. I, as a person in their mid-fifties do not need to have explained to me what "Man Of The Year" means. It means EXACTLY what it says, it means Man Of The Year. Period. Otherwise it would say, "Dictator of the Year" or "Idealogical Nutcase of the Year", etc, etc. For your information, Time Magazine was founded by Henry Luce, a Yale alum and member of the Yale secret society and power broker, Skull and Bones. Skull and Bones also has among its' members, Senator Prescott Bush who helped at least in part to finance Hitler's rise to power, George Bush Sr. former director of the CIA and President of the US, and George Bush Jr. President of the United States. In other words, the same people that in part helped finace Hitler are now calling him, "Man Of The Year". I am sure to this you'll respond, "So?", so I'll save you the effort.

You obviously take everything literally. And as an American and been indoctrinated by the cold war your world is black/white, left wing right wing, and the huge grey area between seems to be out of your reach. As you see from the Time reference below the Public perceived that it was an Honour Award. Time was trying to give the title to the person of most influence in that particular year. No matter how many times they said this.
"Despite the magazine's frequent statements to the contrary, the designation is often regarded as an honor, and spoken of as an award or prize, simply based on many previous selections of admirable people. However Time magazine points out those such as Adolf Hitler in 1938, and Joseph Stalin in 1939 and again in 1942, and the Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979, have also been granted the title." Tell me was Henry Luce or any of the others present or is there any evidence that they ordered the Times Editors to name Hitler as man of the Year?




Quest answers,
Kaz, you stated that, "Any country that has a democratic/secular country should live by its stated laws and values." What on earth does this mean? Surely you aren't suggesting any RELIGIOUS country should NOT be allowed to live by it's own laws and values. Is this what yo are implying? If so, you are indeed quite frightening. The non-religious Bolsheviks with their genocide of millions proved the irreligious have no lock on sanity. To the topic at hand, the Chinese government doesn't represent the Chinese people any more than Bush Jr or Obama represents the US citizens. The Chinese people have not genocied millions around the world. Are you suggested it would be "acceptable" to kill millions of Chinese people because China is not in your words, "multi-cultural"? Not for nothing, Kaz, you are sounded more and more like a flaming, uber-liberal elitist who likes to listen to the sound of their own breath. Better have a look in the mirror and see yourself in about 20 years.

George Bernard Shaw Defends Hitler, Mass Murder
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQvsf2MUKRQ
Left-wing roots of the Nazis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4758sBZLC5k...feature=related

I was clearly referring to democratic/secular countries (eg: USA)secular:denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis. You know the separation of Church and State enshrined in the Constitution. Which also gives anyone the right to freely express their religion. This would be more ideal than living in a country like Israel which shovels its religion down everyones throats." the irreligious have no lock on sanity" So your either religious or you have lost your sanity? Who represents China? I said that China did have many ethnic groups but tries to suppress these by having a mono culture and government. I should ask why people are scared of Multiculturalism? It sounds more and more that you are a white christian racist disguising himself as the opposite in the hope no one will notice your hatred of multiculturalism and anything non christian...Well?

Quest responds,
I definitely think it's possible to be "multi-cultural" and racist; especially if you look at a monolithic race/culture country and see it as a "problem" as opposed to appreciating its' uniqueness and celebrating it's history as long as said country is minding it's own business. Having said that, who wants every country in the world to look like mine? Certainly not me. I WANT to see a diverse world but prefer it within their own law-abiding borders. I do not want my own history and culture wiped out, like my Indian ancestors. The same is for MOST people of the world. Most people, if asked, would want to preserve their own race, culture and history. That is as ancient and human as eating, sleeping and sex. Kaz, what YOU seem to struggle with the difference between "preference" and "prejudice". Because someone wishes to live in the culture they are familiar with does not make them "predjudice", it simply means that is their "preference". However, I suppose if you grew up in a large metropolitain area you might prefer "multi-culturalism" but even then, I'll bet even you have your limits wether they be due to certain culture's customs, religions, or whatever. Question, how willing would you be willing to move to crime-ridden Mexico or Saudi Arabia, or if you were Muslim, or Christian for that matter, how willing would you be to move to Israel? Oh, try asking the average Brit how immigration and multi-culturalism is working out for him. Lastly, what would be wrong with all countries withdrawing to their own borders (as most wish to do already), mind their own business and have their citizens simply visit each other? By saying this I am not implying that no people from any country should never be allowed to move to another country. No. What I am saying however is that it is important to recognize that there is a hidden force that uses the facade of "tolerance" and "multi-culturism" as a means of leveraging politics in a given country in which to control it for its' own selfish, nefarious purposes. My solution of countries withdrawing into their own borders certainly seem a lot more effecient, not to mention humane, than genocidng people around the world because they are not "multi-cultural". ast to the immigrant who is trying to "eke out some type of living" as you say, why didn't he fix the problems in the country of his origin? Do you think said immigrant will care anymore about his new country when it comes to dealing with corruption of injustice if he fled his old country? If justice is what America and the New World Order is actually about, why not fix the corruption and problems in Mexico? We certainly have started ebough ware overseas in the last 75 years. This begs the question, what is REALLY going on? Again, this is a rhetorical question - what is going on is a class war and immigration as well as multi-cultiralism are but mere tools of the elite NWO.

So Anthony Sutton is your major source do you have other people as sources to help substantiate his work? Multiculturalism is an ideal or a progression of circumstances when a country opens up to other cultures. Their are many mono type cultures but because of travel,the internet and the fact we live longer the world has opened up an information Tsunami which will see conflicts and harmonisation of ideas. But I believe many cultures whilst retaining their language and colourful costumes will end up questioning those parts of their culture which suppresses or abuses their basic human rights. It may end up a multicultural world, it may end up with the dominant cultures quarantining themselves but still maintaining contact with each other.
In most multicultural countries peoples diverse cultural histories are allowed to be expressed and preserved but the mutually agreed rights and freedoms are also held to the agreed laws of the land. Yes there are many examples where this doesn't happen or has been used to suppress,destroy cultures. Cultures will only survive under freedom not under oppression.
Quest
Kaz wrote,
QUOTE
I was clearly referring to democratic/secular countries (eg: USA)secular:denoting attitudes, activities, or other things that have no religious or spiritual basis. You know the separation of Church and State enshrined in the Constitution. Which also gives anyone the right to freely express their religion. This would be more ideal than living in a country like Israel which shovels its religion down everyones throats." the irreligious have no lock on sanity" So your either religious or you have lost your sanity? Who represents China? I said that China did have many ethnic groups but tries to suppress these by having a mono culture and government. I should ask why people are scared of Multiculturalism? It sounds more and more that you are a white christian racist disguising himself as the opposite in the hope no one will notice your hatred of multiculturalism and anything non christian...Well?


No, Kaz, I am not religious. I have mentioned to you several times in fact that I am ATHEIST, however I am also TOLERANT and don't feel the need to run all religion out of sovereign countries that are minding their own business unlike the Bosheviks who killed MILLIONS because they felt "discriminated" against.

China is multi-cultural? I understand that you can technically call China multi-cultural because of different religions but most of China has one skin color. True? Along with that skin color, be it black, white, red, olive, usually comes different interests, religions, customs and laws. This doesn't sound like today's China at all but it does it sound more like America or most western European countries. What I am curious of is what is the population of blacks, eoropeans, hispanics, American Indians (of which I am part) are living in China and how are the Chinese fairing?

White racist? Clearly, you haven't been paying attention. For the last time, I am mostly European, part American Indian, atheist, have a Jewish friend, 2 black freinds, I grew up in a metropolitain area and work in a metroplitain city alongside peoples of many nationalities and religions. Oh yeah, I have a younger sister that had a black boyfriend years ago that although he and my sister are no longer an item he still keeps in touch with my family. Where does this charge of "white racist" come from, pray tell? I merely recognize that my country has been hijacked by people with dual-citizenship (Neocons), killed 3,000 of my fellow black, white, and other race Americans on 911, are doing everything they can do to destroy this country's sovereignty and radicalize it's media and culture and I am upset. This makes me a "white racist"? My Jewish and black freinds share my views on these same issues as well. Are they white racists too? laugh.gif

Just to be clear, I have no problem with multi-culturalism in this country. What I do NOT like is rampant immigration when we are already supposedly fighting for oil and sending jobs overseas. Where is the oil going to come from to support the next 10 million immigrants? And water as well as other resouces? Also, what kind of people are we letting in?
Has Illegal Immigration been good for Downtown L.A.? ( Los Angeles / Undocumented Aliens )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZJQT9tCKHU

Clearly, blacks are concerned with illegal immigration. Are they racist?

Are Latinos against illegal immigrants racist?
Genocide of Black Americans via illegal immigration: Ted Hayes speaks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2YLUJ_WsZk
American Blacks Rise Up Against Illegal Immigration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRRuDfZEvL8...feature=related


Latinos against illegal immigration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKiYQMp3JAE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laYeI-9nPLU...feature=related

Kaz wrote,
QUOTE
Multiculturalism is an ideal or a progression of circumstances when a country opens up to other cultures. Their are many mono type cultures but because of travel,the internet and the fact we live longer the world has opened up an information Tsunami which will see conflicts and harmonisation of ideas. But I believe many cultures whilst retaining their language and colourful costumes will end up questioning those parts of their culture which suppresses or abuses their basic human rights. It may end up a multicultural world, it may end up with the dominant cultures quarantining themselves but still maintaining contact with each other.


Sounds great on paper. But what if a sovereign, monolithic-race country minding it's own business says, "No thanks." Then what?

Kaz, what gurantee is there that once a country opens up to multi-culturalism (the USA) that it's govermnet won't be hijacked by another country (Israel) because of citizens with dual-citizenships (American/Isareli Neocons) and interets sending it's host country's troops to their death, depleting resources, money, ruination of popular culture and economy, dumbing down it's schools, propogandizing in it's media and in general destroying it's culture all because it wants to spread "democracy", "freedom" and "multi-culturalism" elsewhere? Is that simply the price we must pay?

Can you please tell me what you know about the School Of The Americas?
http://www.soaw.org/about-the-soawhinsec
QUOTE
Over its 59 years, the SOA has trained over 60,000 Latin American soldiers in counterinsurgency techniques, sniper training, commando and psychological warfare, military intelligence and interrogation tactics. These graduates have consistently used their skills to wage a war against their own people. Among those targeted by SOA graduates are educators, union organizers, religious workers, student leaders, and others who work for the rights of the poor. Hundreds of thousands of Latin Americans have been tortured, raped, assassinated, “disappeared,” massacred, and forced into refugee by those trained at the School of Assassins.
Initially established in Panama in 1946, it was kicked out of that country in 1984 under the terms of the Panama Canal Treaty. Former Panamanian President, Jorge Illueca, stated that the School of the Americas was the “biggest base for destabilization in Latin America.” The SOA, frequently dubbed the “School of Assassins,” has left a trail of blood and suffering in every country where its graduates have returned.

One more question, is it at all possible that "multi-culturalism" as it is being discussed in the US media can be used to control a country(s) by an elte group much like contrived issues like, "The war on terror", the war on drugs", "global warming", etc?

By the way Kaz, before this goes any further, I gave you some background on myself so let's be fair and share that much. How old are you, what is your race, religion and what country are you from?
kaz
China is multi-culture? I understand that you can technically call China multi-cultural because of different religions but most of China has one skin color. True? Along with that skin color, be it black, white, red, olive, usually comes different interests, religions, customs and laws. This doesn't sound like today's China at all but it does it sound more like America or most western European countries. What I am curious of is what is the population of blacks, eoropeans, hispanics, American Indians (of which I am part) are living in China and how are the Chinese fairing?

You obviously have to do more study on China. There are many ethnic groups and some even have slightly different skin colours(although that is irrelevant to culture) There are also TWO main languages in China (mandarin No1 and Cantonese). Does every country have to made up by exactly the same ethnic groups as the USA to be deemed Multicultural? Of course not if you have two or more cultures in a countries borders your country can be called multicultural.

White racist? Clearly, you haven't been paying attention. For the last time, I am mostly European, part American Indian, atheist, have a Jewish friend, 2 black freinds, I grew up in a metropolitain area and work in a metroplitain city alongside peoples of many nationalities and religions. Oh yeah, I have a younger sister that had a black boyfriend years ago that although he and my sister are no longer an item he still keeps in touch with my family. Where does this charge of "white racist" come from, pray tell? I merely recognize that my country has been hijacked by people with dual-citizenship (Neocons), killed 3,000 of my fellow black, white, and other race Americans on 911, are doing everything they can do to destroy this country's sovereignty and radicalize it's media and culture and I am upset. This makes me a "white racist"? My Jewish and black freinds share my views on these same issues as well. Are they white racists too? laugh.gif

Kaz wrote,
So your life history is a testament to multiculturalism yet you are in fear of it and in fear of christianity becoming a minority WHY?

Sounds great on paper. But what if a sovereign, monolithic-race country minding it's own business says, "No thanks." Then what?

Then that country ends up like Israel, OLD Sth Africa or Iraq or it democratically decides to take a less extreme form of exclusion. Don't worry most people are happy to stay where they are and in their established cultures its only when wars,hunger,torture,apartheid or some other hideous act makes people refugees that they then seek refuge in countries willing to accept them. And countries that have signed up to the UN convention on refugees are willing to accept them in certain numbers.

Kaz, what gurantee is there that once a country opens up to multi-culturalism (the USA) that it's govermnet won't be hijacked by another country (Israel) because of citizens with dual-citizenships (American/Isareli Neocons) and interets sending it's host country's troops to their death, depleting resources, money, ruination of popular culture and economy, dumbing down it's schools, propogandizing in it's media and in general destroying it's culture all because it wants to spread "democracy", "freedom" and "multi-culturalism" elsewhere? Is that simply the price we must pay?

The US has been hijacked by its own rhetoric by worshipping capitalism,low taxes, privatise everything, spend large amounts of government money on defence, and not taking an active voting and lobbying interest in their government. So the industrial Military complex and yes Israel have filled the void left by the people of the US and taken over mainly your foreign policy. So spreading Democracy,Freedom and a multi cultural tolerate society is a bad thing?

Sounds like the School of America confirms the military involvement in Iran/Contra, Air America and all the other rubbish/disasters going on in Central America.

It does seem you like you conspiracy to be simple so you try and tie everything into one country Israel or one elite group like the Rothschilds. Multiculturalism happened from the day europeans started settling in Nth America long before Israel or the Jews had any power. The war on terror,communism and drugs are hyped up to keep the military monies flowing making sure health,education and social well being are begging for crumbs. I feel sorrow for you if you think Global Warming is a scam. The very same carbon which previously wiped out most life on earth 200 million years ago is the same carbon we are pumping into our atmosphere right now.

By the way Kaz, before this goes any further, I gave you some background on myself so let's be fair and share that much. How old are you, what is your race, religion and what country are you from?
[/quote]
Well your background seems dubious but I am an aethiest around 50 and I am a human from planet Earth.
Quest
QUOTE (kaz @ Dec 6 2010, 05:23 AM) *
China is multi-culture? I understand that you can technically call China multi-cultural because of different religions but most of China has one skin color. True? Along with that skin color, be it black, white, red, olive, usually comes different interests, religions, customs and laws. This doesn't sound like today's China at all but it does it sound more like America or most western European countries. What I am curious of is what is the population of blacks, eoropeans, hispanics, American Indians (of which I am part) are living in China and how are the Chinese fairing?

You obviously have to do more study on China. There are many ethnic groups and some even have slightly different skin colours(although that is irrelevant to culture) There are also TWO main languages in China (mandarin No1 and Cantonese). Does every country have to made up by exactly the same ethnic groups as the USA to be deemed Multicultural? Of course not if you have two or more cultures in a countries borders your country can be called multicultural.

White racist? Clearly, you haven't been paying attention. For the last time, I am mostly European, part American Indian, atheist, have a Jewish friend, 2 black freinds, I grew up in a metropolitain area and work in a metroplitain city alongside peoples of many nationalities and religions. Oh yeah, I have a younger sister that had a black boyfriend years ago that although he and my sister are no longer an item he still keeps in touch with my family. Where does this charge of "white racist" come from, pray tell? I merely recognize that my country has been hijacked by people with dual-citizenship (Neocons), killed 3,000 of my fellow black, white, and other race Americans on 911, are doing everything they can do to destroy this country's sovereignty and radicalize it's media and culture and I am upset. This makes me a "white racist"? My Jewish and black freinds share my views on these same issues as well. Are they white racists too? laugh.gif

Kaz wrote,
So your life history is a testament to multiculturalism yet you are in fear of it and in fear of christianity becoming a minority WHY?

Sounds great on paper. But what if a sovereign, monolithic-race country minding it's own business says, "No thanks." Then what?

Then that country ends up like Israel, OLD Sth Africa or Iraq or it democratically decides to take a less extreme form of exclusion. Don't worry most people are happy to stay where they are and in their established cultures its only when wars,hunger,torture,apartheid or some other hideous act makes people refugees that they then seek refuge in countries willing to accept them. And countries that have signed up to the UN convention on refugees are willing to accept them in certain numbers.

Kaz, what gurantee is there that once a country opens up to multi-culturalism (the USA) that it's govermnet won't be hijacked by another country (Israel) because of citizens with dual-citizenships (American/Isareli Neocons) and interets sending it's host country's troops to their death, depleting resources, money, ruination of popular culture and economy, dumbing down it's schools, propogandizing in it's media and in general destroying it's culture all because it wants to spread "democracy", "freedom" and "multi-culturalism" elsewhere? Is that simply the price we must pay?

The US has been hijacked by its own rhetoric by worshipping capitalism,low taxes, privatise everything, spend large amounts of government money on defence, and not taking an active voting and lobbying interest in their government. So the industrial Military complex and yes Israel have filled the void left by the people of the US and taken over mainly your foreign policy. So spreading Democracy,Freedom and a multi cultural tolerate society is a bad thing?

Sounds like the School of America confirms the military involvement in Iran/Contra, Air America and all the other rubbish/disasters going on in Central America.

It does seem you like you conspiracy to be simple so you try and tie everything into one country Israel or one elite group like the Rothschilds. Multiculturalism happened from the day europeans started settling in Nth America long before Israel or the Jews had any power. The war on terror,communism and drugs are hyped up to keep the military monies flowing making sure health,education and social well being are begging for crumbs. I feel sorrow for you if you think Global Warming is a scam. The very same carbon which previously wiped out most life on earth 200 million years ago is the same carbon we are pumping into our atmosphere right now.

By the way Kaz, before this goes any further, I gave you some background on myself so let's be fair and share that much. How old are you, what is your race, religion and what country are you from?

Well your background seems dubious but I am an aethiest around 50 and I am a human from planet Earth.


Better re-read my last post, Kaz for an edit. It would seem you and I have been talking about 2 different issues right along. What I am especially concerned about is illegal imigration in this country. My last post explains it but I will copy the edit in this post. As to my background, it is what it is.

I added the following to my previous post because I started to realize we are not on the same page and are actually discussing 2 different topics. I may be in part at fault because I was thinking one thing, illegal immigration in the USA and somehow it carried over to multi-culturalism in sovereign countries OTHER than the USA. I also had the impression that you think it's OK to FORCE immigration in sovereign monolithic race/religious countries because of your take on the Bolshevik Genocide. That's where the misunderstanding stems from and I apologize.

From my previous post,
Just to be clear, Kaz, I have no problem with multi-culturalism in this country. What I do NOT like is rampant immigration when we are already supposedly fighting for oil and sending jobs overseas. Where is the oil going to come from to support the next 10 million immigrants illegal or otherwise? And water as well as other resouces? Also, what kind of people are we letting in?
Has Illegal Immigration been good for Downtown L.A.? ( Los Angeles / Undocumented Aliens )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZJQT9tCKHU

Clearly, blacks are concerned with illegal immigration. Are they racist?
Genocide of Black Americans via illegal immigration: Ted Hayes speaks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2YLUJ_WsZk
American Blacks Rise Up Against Illegal Immigration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRRuDfZEvL8...feature=related

Are Latinos against illegal immigrants racist?Latinos against illegal immigration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKiYQMp3JAE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laYeI-9nPLU...feature=related
kaz
QUOTE (Quest @ Dec 6 2010, 12:37 AM) *


Better re-read my last post, Kaz for an edit. It would seem you and I have been talking about 2 different issues right along. What I am especially concerned about is illegal imigration in this country. My last post explains it but I will copy the edit in this post. As to my background, it is what it is.

I added the following to my previous post because I started to realize we are not on the same page and are actually discussing 2 different topics. I may be in part at fault because I was thinking one thing, illegal immigration in the USA and somehow it carried over to multi-culturalism in sovereign countries OTHER than the USA. I also had the impression that you think it's OK to FORCE immigration in sovereign monolithic race/religious countries because of your take on the Bolshevik Genocide. That's where the misunderstanding stems from and I apologize.

From my previous post,
Just to be clear, Kaz, I have no problem with multi-culturalism in this country. What I do NOT like is rampant immigration when we are already supposedly fighting for oil and sending jobs overseas. Where is the oil going to come from to support the next 10 million immigrants illegal or otherwise? And water as well as other resouces? Also, what kind of people are we letting in?
Has Illegal Immigration been good for Downtown L.A.? ( Los Angeles / Undocumented Aliens )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZJQT9tCKHU

Clearly, blacks are concerned with illegal immigration. Are they racist?
Genocide of Black Americans via illegal immigration: Ted Hayes speaks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2YLUJ_WsZk
American Blacks Rise Up Against Illegal Immigration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRRuDfZEvL8...feature=related

Are Latinos against illegal immigrants racist?Latinos against illegal immigration
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKiYQMp3JAE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laYeI-9nPLU...feature=related



As always you look at life through a simple prism. You never see the reason why their might be a backlash against" illegal immigrants "and in the US where private companies are worshipped like churches it could never be their fault. For the past past forty years and especially after the Soviets fell the Big Business end of town has been going overseas to find cheap labour, no unions,no workers rights ,no safety, no 401's, no anti pollution laws etc,etc...business nirvana. The most clear example of this is Mexico where most of the top 500 businesses in the US have set up shop. Read Naomi Klein's "No Logo" sometime. And as the US has just gone through almost 15 years of boom where average workers wages dropped and the elite received obscene wages it has all become more clear after the Global Fraud Crisis happened. Here we had private enterprise bag junk debt got their buddies the ratings agencies to AAA rate them then sold them round the world. The best trick was that they have successfully passed on that debt mainly to the US and Europe (not Germany as it has a banking/finance system that invests in big and small business/innovation,education and subsequently has a highly paid and skilled workforce ) and now the taxpayer is on the hook. This has resulted in a huge loss in jobs as a people are looking to survive they become more desperate for jobs. So the low paid menial jobs mainly done by Mexicans (economic refugees) are up for grabs. When you have let big US companies go to Mexico and treat that country and its workforce like a sewer you can expect those same people to look for better wages and conditions over the border. Get the Big companies to pay decent wages and give good conditions in Mexico then the flow of refugees will almost stop and when they have cleaned up the drug cartels their wages may even become higher than yours, then you can become the economic refugees (your illegal immigrants) and cross into Mexico. Do you watch a lot of David Duke (I'm not a racist but would just like a white only culture)?
Sanders
Jobs move overseas because the US over-regulates (and taxes) businesses to the point of pushing them out. Wages and unions are a part of it, but faulting corporations for trying to make money is like shouting at the rain. But the more relevant point is, it is all intentional and by design. The outsourcing of America's manufacturing base is the result of a 100 year long trend, couched in "Universal Laws" which have taken powers from the states and allowed the Federal Government to regulate everything under the sun under the guise of its inter-state commerce powers (enumerated in the Constitution). I even suspect that the big corporate scandals, like Enron, are fomented ... they are always followed by more regulations which in fact give the biggest corporations advantage over smaller businesses, pushing them aside.

The super-rich are in power, they hold the reigns. The only way to get power back is to go back to basics ... get rid of the FED (and in turn their control over the volume of money and the business cycle), repeal any regulations that are not sensible and necessary or that infringe on the rights of the people to conduct business freely, and so level the playing field. Of course none of that will ever happen, but barring that, we're at their mercy whether the system is capitalistic, socialistic, democratic, whatever. They don't care ... so long as we don't revert back to a truly free capitalist society under a constitutional republic as the founders envisioned ... which America prospered under ... the bankers hate that ... they spent a full century trying to get around it. And they did.
kaz
QUOTE (Sanders @ Dec 7 2010, 10:59 AM) *
Jobs move overseas because the US over-regulates (and taxes) businesses to the point of pushing them out. Wages and unions are a part of it, but faulting corporations for trying to make money is like shouting at the rain. But the more relevant point is, it is all intentional and by design. The outsourcing of America's manufacturing base is the result of a 100 year long trend, couched in "Universal Laws" which have taken powers from the states and allowed the Federal Government to regulate everything under the sun under the guise of its inter-state commerce powers (enumerated in the Constitution). I even suspect that the big corporate scandals, like Enron, are fomented ... they are always followed by more regulations which in fact give the biggest corporations advantage over smaller businesses, pushing them aside.

The super-rich are in power, they hold the reigns. The only way to get power back is to go back to basics ... get rid of the FED (and in turn their control over the volume of money and the business cycle), repeal any regulations that are not sensible and necessary or that infringe on the rights of the people to conduct business freely, and so level the playing field. Of course none of that will ever happen, but barring that, we're at their mercy whether the system is capitalistic, socialistic, democratic, whatever. They don't care ... so long as we don't revert back to a truly free capitalist society under a constitutional republic as the founders envisioned ... which America prospered under ... the bankers hate that ... they spent a full century trying to get around it. And they did.


Wow you really are indoctrinated in capitalism. If you look at most of history before 1929 you will see big business had free rein,no unions,no safety laws,no pollution laws,no accountability. And workers got miserable working conditions,low or no pay,children had to work. Left to their own self regulation big business would pollute all aspects of our lives. If you truly believe in capitalism then repeal all labour laws,all child labour laws, get rid of Unions,the EPA,the FDA,the SEC and anything else that gets in the way of profit margins as CEO's and shareholders really need that money and they showed how responsible they can be with the Great Depression,the S and L scandal and the Global Fraud Crisis. Corporations were temporary constructs until the 20th century,Unions didn't exist till the 20th century, Women and minorities didn't have the vote till the 20th century. Show me one time in history where the workers (the majority) and big business both had it so good because there was little government regulation. Germany has high taxes,over regulates but has a highly paid workforce and a banking system and business culture that supports that and workers rights,pollution laws. The US businesses have outsourced because you have let them take over your democracy and made you into a consumer dependent economy. You never recognise when a socialist action has helped you or protected your businesses. In W Bush's early years he put a 30% tariff on imported steel stopping non subsidised steel from Australia. The defence force is a socialist construct,the subsidies for Oil exploration socialist,the farmers subsidy second only to the EU a socialist action.
elreb
QUOTE (kaz @ Dec 7 2010, 09:18 PM) *
Show me one time in history where the workers (the majority) and big business both had it so good because there was little government regulation.

Ever heard of Andrew Jackson?

He did away with the Central Bank and put gold & silver coins in the working man’s pocket…no debt and no inflation...

1815 to 1850 was great…especially out West…

But on the other hand you are correct because the majority of Americans...let America go down the drain because they were [and still are] too busy watching the “Boob-tube” and eating TV diners.
Quest
Kaz wrote,

QUOTE
As always you look at life through a simple prism. You never see the reason why their might be a backlash against" illegal immigrants "and in the US where private companies are worshipped like churches it could never be their fault.
For the past past forty years and especially after the Soviets fell the Big Business end of town has been going overseas to find cheap labour, no unions,no workers rights ,no safety, no 401's, no anti pollution laws etc,etc...business nirvana. The most clear example of this is Mexico where most of the top 500 businesses in the US have set up shop. Read Naomi Klein's "No Logo" sometime. And as the US has just gone through almost 15 years of boom where average workers wages dropped and the elite received obscene wages it has all become more clear after the Global Fraud Crisis happened. Here we had private enterprise bag junk debt got their buddies the ratings agencies to AAA rate them then sold them round the world. The best trick was that they have successfully passed on that debt mainly to the US and Europe (not Germany as it has a banking/finance system that invests in big and small business/innovation,education and subsequently has a highly paid and skilled workforce ) and now the taxpayer is on the hook. This has resulted in a huge loss in jobs as a people are looking to survive they become more desperate for jobs. So the low paid menial jobs mainly done by Mexicans (economic refugees) are up for grabs. When you have let big US companies go to Mexico and treat that country and its workforce like a sewer you can expect those same people to look for better wages and conditions over the border. Get the Big companies to pay decent wages and give good conditions in Mexico then the flow of refugees will almost stop and when they have cleaned up the drug cartels their wages may even become higher than yours, then you can become the economic refugees (your illegal immigrants) and cross into Mexico.



I agree with everything you've said in the above post. Are you surprised? I never said corporations weren't mostly responsible. Where on earth did you get the idea otherwise? Corporations are in my opnion bringing many legal and illegal aliens for 2 main purposes; to help bust unions thus driving down salaries for US born workers and to also replace many people that have left the US to return to their native countries post 911. I know this because I have spoken with legal immigrants over the last 10 years that believe the US has in effect lost it's mind and no longer represents decency, integrety not to mention, sanity. Yes, corporations also pollute environments in other countries (see Union Carbide in Bopal, India and GM in Mexico) as well our own and exploit workers in foreign countries (see Nike). The only reason you haven't heard me say this yet is because this thread needed to progress to the point it has now, that and the indirect route taken to arrive at this place.

I see the illegal AND legal immigration thing as part and parcel of the greater NWO/Corporate/Zionist/Christian Zionist/Masonic agenda - it's all about one world government and countries with fluid boundaries along with corportions (who actually have CIA, military and intelligence CEOs) writing foreign and domestic policy. The immigration issue is just the tip of the iceberg. All this being said, I also believe that Zionists feel safer in a multi-cultural country because the host country is then easier to control, so my beef isn't so much against multi-culturalism but rather how multi-culturalism is being used to weaken workers' political clought, and to divide and conquer a country that does not wish to engage in the senseless genocide of millions of people around the world. This is what I was ultimately getting at.

Kaz wrote
QUOTE
Do you watch a lot of David Duke (I'm not a racist but would just like a white only culture)?


And you accuse me of simplistic responses? Like I told you earlier, many times in fact, I am part American Indian, atheist and have a Jewish friend and black friends, as well as many white friends. To your question about David Duke, look how good "mult-culturalism" worked out for the American Indians or blacks in this country. That being said, I think it is very arrogant of the USA to go around the world destroying sovereign countries of other ethnicities, religions and cultures, stealing their precious resources while pushing fake agendas like "global warming", "terrorism" and "the case for legalization of illegal immigrants " here in the USA. And please, don't again tell me China is multi-cultural because it has a few different religions or smaller cultural sects. One thing that China has had for CENTURIES is a shared national culture and history without immigration from other cultures and the associated differences, issues and "selfish" agandas that come with them. So you see, it's not about race in any given country so much as it is about how the collective population sees themselves, and their shared history, and how they fit in their country and the world at large. That is why I believe you can have a mostly white, black, and latino multicultural USA that feels their country has been hijacked by Zionists which is exactly what has happened. And this is why you see latinos and blacks that are in the USA LEGALLY, whether because of slavery or legal immigration that have both taken a stand against illegal immigration. This is what I have been driving at - the cry of "discrimination" and "racism" is being used against those that question the reasons behind the never ending flow of illegal aliens to this country and the push by corrupt politicians to "legalize" them.

Israel owns the USA- Dr. Paul Craig Roberts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SbxnY14Snw
kaz
QUOTE (Quest @ Dec 12 2010, 03:02 PM) *
Kaz wrote,




.

I see the illegal AND legal immigration thing as part and parcel of the greater NWO/Corporate/Zionist/Christian Zionist/Masonic agenda - it's all about one world government and countries with fluid boundaries along with corportions (who actually have CIA, military and intelligence CEOs) writing foreign and domestic policy. The immigration issue is just the tip of the iceberg. All this being said, I also believe that Zionists feel safer in a multi-cultural country because the host country is then easier to control, so my beef isn't so much against multi-culturalism but rather how multi-culturalism is being used to weaken workers' political clought, and to divide and conquer a country that does not wish to engage in the senseless genocide of millions of people around the world. This is what I was ultimately getting at.

Kaz wrote: You really try and incorporate a few diametrically opposed groups and believe they are one homogenised group with a single agenda. Over the years I have found americans paranoid about the rest of the world because they were never taught or never bothered to find out what the rest of the world got up to. You play catch up with your history and you only apply that history which suits your theory. I have had this discussion with another person by email and he believes in the NWO etc and that the Holocaust either didn't happen or wasn't so bad and like you thinks Hitler,Japan and Stalin were all puppets of the zionists I don't.
The reason you have lobbyists,CEO's etc running a lot of your government policy is the american people can't be bothered voting in big numbers,never support a third choice candidate, and invest little time in politics. You totally distrust government but even if you say you hate corporations you seemingly hand over all your personal details,your money and your labour quite willingly. I really wish the US would get over the cold war mentality with everything being simply socialist/capitalist,black/white, good/evil, life is never that simple and if you allowed real political discourse to take place in your country then you would realise there is a whole lot of Grey out there. And even one person can hold a number of views which may be socialist,capitalist or even fascist all at the same time. If you live on Earth you have to come to grips with the fact that there is one species of human and we are made up of thousands of different languages and cultures. This has happened geographically,by the rise and fall of empires,travel,food shortages etc. We now live in a world where travel is cheap and quick,we are living much longer and we can read about each others cultures instantaneously on the Net. You seem to be in fear of this, perhaps you should look at embracing it. I think what you yearn for is what most people really want deep down. Respect,peace,freedom and justice that is applied equally to all. In other words the world can look like it is trying to become a one world government as people try and get their countries to accept these universal truths. And the only real way to do this is by having accountability. What has happened in the 20th/21st centuries is many new forms of rule have been trying to win out over all others as certain countries seek empire by war or economic means. And we have seen the worst massacres throughout history because we can kill on an industrial scale. But during this time we have seen the rise of science,freedom,workers rights etc...which has given us better medicine,food production ,living and working conditions with the result that even after all these massacres there are far more of us and we are living longer and better lives. Your theories tend to ignore those simple facts.


And you accuse me of simplistic responses? Like I told you earlier, many times in fact, I am part American Indian, atheist and have a Jewish friend and black friends, as well as many white friends. To your question about David Duke, look how good "mult-culturalism" worked out for the American Indians or blacks in this country. That being said, I think it is very arrogant of the USA to go around the world destroying sovereign countries of other ethnicities, religions and cultures, stealing their precious resources while pushing fake agendas like "global warming", "terrorism" and "the case for legalization of illegal immigrants " here in the USA. And please, don't again tell me China is multi-cultural because it has a few different religions or smaller cultural sects. One thing that China has had for CENTURIES is a shared national culture and history without immigration from other cultures and the associated differences, issues and "selfish" agandas that come with them. So you see, it's not about race in any given country so much as it is about how the collective population sees themselves, and their shared history, and how they fit in their country and the world at large. That is why I believe you can have a mostly white, black, and latino multicultural USA that feels their country has been hijacked by Zionists which is exactly what has happened. And this is why you see latinos and blacks that are in the USA LEGALLY, whether because of slavery or legal immigration that have both taken a stand against illegal immigration. This is what I have been driving at - the cry of "discrimination" and "racism" is being used against those that question the reasons behind the never ending flow of illegal aliens to this country and the push by corrupt politicians to "legalize" them.

Israel owns the USA- Dr. Paul Craig Roberts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SbxnY14Snw


Multiculturalism didn't work out for Native Americans or blacks because white people/christians thought they were a superior culture and that everyone had to be christian or a heathen. So are you a David Duke fan?. Terrorism (IRA,CIA) and Global warming are real. But of course on the Terrorism side there has been False Flag operations(911) to scare an over top response by the US military and its citizens. Anti-Global warming scaremongering has been whipped up by the Coal,Oil,big end of town the very same people you accuse of setting up the global warming argument and new world order...they appear to be on both sides of the argument. Even if you will never believe in global warming/climate change perhaps you might consider this. Humans and animals can't breathe CO2, methane,carbon monoxide,sulphur dioxide etc yet we are hell bent on pumping as much as we can into the air. The rivers and land are being either destroyed or polluted by us on an industrial scale. We are tapping into finite resources that aren't available in most countries of the world. The two fastest growing economies China and India (2.2 billion) are going to demand their share of the carbon resources, do you think the US will get their fair share? So something has to give, more wars over resources,more wars over "this land is my land" people. Or perhaps we could find a better way with a long term solution. Where we use our brains and start cleaning up our air,river,lands,start recycling resources when we can, use sustainable clean energy that we can source in our own back yards. Empowering people around the world by decentralising energy sources and not having to ask/trick them into sacrificing their lives just to get more Oil. I think your problems will go away if you can get over your phobia of different cultures and you work together to weed out corruption. But that might seem too much like socialism...another scary monster you have to deal with.
Quest
Kaz wrote,
QUOTE
Multiculturalism didn't work out for Native Americans or blacks because white people/christians thought they were a superior culture and that everyone had to be christian or a heathen.


That was my point, Kaz. The bottom line is that "multiculturalism" didn't work for the Indians, not then and not now unless you consider Indian owned gambling casinos "success". That being said, isn't this what is going on in Israel, a majority culture that thinks it's superior to its' minorities? How is multi-culturalism working out for Christians, Arabs, blacks and Latinos in Israel? Why is the US giving billions to support a racist country?

Kaz wrote,
QUOTE
So are you a David Duke fan?


No, I am not a Duke "fan". Why do you keep going there? Because I believe a monolithic culture/race country like China has a right to be sovereign? Are you suggesting the Chinese are all "Duke fans" for wanting to preserve their heritage and history? Ridiculous. If the American Indians collectively could forsee the destruction of their land by European 'immigration' would they be "Duke fans" for not wanting them here? Are the Chinese and American Indians "white nationalists"? My dear friend, you have been THOUROUGHLY brainwashed by the 911 perp-controlled media, so much that I am even surprised you believe 911 was an inside job. For the last time, Kaz, I am part American Indian, i am an atheist, I have Black friends, a Jewish friend and and also have friends that have Jewish, black friends as well as Latino friends and all agree that 911 was an inside job and they are not the least happy about it. Are they "Duke fans" as well? I'll keep saying it again and again because I believe you are nothing more than a troll and are simply trying to bait me. If that's your game you can forget it. Did you not hear me say my beef with "multicultalism" is how it is being used as a weapon to weaken the US workers political clought by pitting one group against another and to drive down wages while we are simultaneously shipping jobs overseas? And by US workers, I mean workers of ALL color who are here LEGALLY. I also think if monolithic race/culture China wants to retain their culture and history it's none of your business.

Kaz wrote
QUOTE
Terrorism (IRA,CIA) and Global warming are real. But of course on the Terrorism side there has been False Flag operations(911) to scare an over top response by the US military and its citizens. Anti-Global warming scaremongering has been whipped up by the Coal,Oil,big end of town the very same people you accuse of setting up the global warming argument and new world order...they appear to be on both sides of the argument. Even if you will never believe in global warming/climate change perhaps you might consider this. Humans and animals can't breathe CO2, methane,carbon monoxide,sulphur dioxide etc yet we are hell bent on pumping as much as we can into the air. The rivers and land are being either destroyed or polluted by us on an industrial scale. We are tapping into finite resources that aren't available in most countries of the world. The two fastest growing economies China and India (2.2 billion) are going to demand their share of the carbon resources, do you think the US will get their fair share? So something has to give, more wars over resources,more wars over "this land is my land" people. Or perhaps we could find a better way with a long term solution. Where we use our brains and start cleaning up our air,river,lands,start recycling resources when we can, use sustainable clean energy that we can source in our own back yards. Empowering people around the world by decentralising energy sources and not having to ask/trick them into sacrificing their lives just to get more Oil. I think your problems will go away if you can get over your phobia of different cultures and you work together to weed out corruption. But that might seem too much like socialism...another scary monster you have to deal with
.

So in other words, 911 was an "honorable" act by the power-elite? 'Terrorists' (actually government-controlled useful idiots like US soldier Tim McVeigh/OKC) will commit horrible acts so the CIA is justified for doing the same to steer public opinion to the goal of one-world-goverment run by trillionaires with no allegiance to anyone but themselves? If this is what you believe why not have the guts to come out and say it, after all, it IS what you are implying. The US-assisted genocide of MILLIONS in the (Prescott Bush/OSS/Hitler and Wall Street/Bolshevik genocides) were all worthy causes because of fear of future "global warming" or competing economies by countries not part of the western power-elite, true? Is this what you believe? The problem here is that MOST of so-called terrorist acts are actually carried out by GOVERNMENTS, not by auto-mechanics, bakers and grocery baggers, you know, ordinary people. So, who are the REAL terrorists? Wouldn't that be people that kill MILLIONS or prop up dictators who do the same?

My impression is the IRA is a fraud run by useful idiots and intelligence agencies, similar to the KKK or Al-CIAda but apparently you believe otherwise. Regarding your statement, "Humans and animals can't breath CO2", to plants, CO2 is food and they eat what we emit. We not only peacefully coexist, we DEPEND on each other. POLLUTION is another story but don't confuse the small amount of CO2 produced by humans with pollution.
Water Vapor clip From "Global Warming or Global Governance"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K68zKv0vXI

After all is said and done my impression is that these various groups, companies and individuals that make up the 911 perps have been in power for a long time and have no intention of giving that power up. They will lie, cheat, steal and genocide MILLIONS around the world to keep that power. There is no allegiance to the common man as evidenced by the genocides of peoples from soveriegn countries and countries without a central (Rothschild) bank, in particular, are targets. We are mere sheep to them and are only free as the powers that be can afford us to be. All this talk about "racism", "immigration", "terrorism" and "global warming" are used to justify their power grab so the elite can sleep at night. So let's not kid ourselves, however POTENTIONALLY important some of these issues may be, they are twisted, and disfigured and turned into tools for elite (in their minds) criminals for their own selfish purposes. In other words, they, the 911 perps, siezed power and stay in power because they have brainwashed themselves into believing everyone else will screw up the planet. In the meantime, the 911 perps genocide millions, live in luxury mansions (see Al -Mr. Global Warming - Gore and his recent purchase of an 8 million dollar sea-side home), are carted around in limos and jets living the high-life while us working slobs worry about when the next Al-CIAda attack is coming. Sounds like nothing more than a class war that has poor people in one country killing poor people in another country. Great. Just great.

With your last post, Kaz, I seriously doubt your objectivity or knowledge of the subject matter being discussed and will no longer respond to you. Signing out.
Quest
An incredibly powerful video. Note the mention of the Christian Zionist element and one of it's representatives, Newt Gingrich, at 4:15.

Criminal State - Part 1 of 3: A Closer Look at Israel's Role in Terrorism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNjb1MGmGDc...layer_embedded#!
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