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Zaphod 36
Few years ago I have met Terry Butler at Stoystown Autwreckers. He told me his story from the point where he had observed Flight 93. There was one thing which mades me wonder: He told me that the plane has made a normal(controlled) turn to the southeast in this area(near Stoystown).
The media always reported that Flight 93 makes uncontrolled moves in the air.

There is a Non-Directional Beacon (NDB) near Stoystown. Link
Can it be that Flight 93 had used this NDB to make an Aerodrome Circuit for a Landing at Johnstown Airport?
The direction of the runway(to southeast) at Johnstown Airport and the wind(to southeast) should be right. If the turn over Stoystown was a 45-degree-turn into downwind, this would also fit to an Aerodrome Circuit.

My question to the pilots here:
How would you prepare and perform an Aerodrome Circuit to Johnstown Airport(coming from West), using the NDB over Stoystown?

amazed!
As a hypothetical exercise, one would need to review the NDB approach to which you refer. I don't have a copy of it.

Any airplane Terry Butler might have seen was not UA93. Unless an airliner is fairly low and slow, there is no way an observer on the ground without binoculars could identify which airline the plane belonged to.

To some degree or another, Flight 93 was a fiction and fable.
Zaphod 36
QUOTE (amazed! @ Jun 15 2012, 08:48 AM) *
As a hypothetical exercise, one would need to review the NDB approach to which you refer. I don't have a copy of it.

Any airplane Terry Butler might have seen was not UA93. Unless an airliner is fairly low and slow, there is no way an observer on the ground without binoculars could identify which airline the plane belonged to.

To some degree or another, Flight 93 was a fiction and fable.

I`ve found a good graphic of the Flight Path at the New York Times.
At 10:01:59 Flight 93 makes a perfect 45 degree turn into downwind for a possible Aerodrome Circuit for Johnstown Airport. This turn can only be made at the NDB in Stoystown, because Terry Butler witnessed this turn at Stoystown Autowreckers.

For this topic its not important if the plane actually was Flight 93 or not. I just call it Flight 93 for a better understanding. The question is whether the turn at the NDB in Stoystown makes sense for a Aerodrome Circuit for Johnstown Airport.
Perhaps the Microsoft Flight Explorer can help.
I hope some pilots can answer this question.
amazed!
To play the Devil's Advocate, this theory suggests that the hijackers were aware of the radio beacon and tuned it in.

I can't buy that.
Zaphod 36
QUOTE (amazed! @ Jun 16 2012, 08:47 AM) *
To play the Devil's Advocate, this theory suggests that the hijackers were aware of the radio beacon and tuned it in.

I can't buy that.

Who said that the hijackers was in control at this time? If it was Flight 93, the passengers revolt might been successfully and Leroy Homer was in control of the plane around 10:00pm. In this case he surely intended to land the plane safely as soon as possible. In this area Johnstown was the best airport.
Zaphod 36
I`ve draw some points of reference and the assumed Aerodrome Circuit into the official graphic:

amazed!
As for me, I do not believe that the airplane carrying the UA93 callsign was even IN Shanksville.

I believe the entire saga is a screen play. No plane, no pax, no hijackers.
rob balsamo
QUOTE (Zaphod 36 @ Jul 14 2012, 06:52 AM) *
I`ve draw some points of reference and the assumed Aerodrome Circuit into the official graphic:



Interesting Zaphod.

To answer your question... Yes, that is a standard left downwind entry for landing at JST runway 33, albeit a very wide pattern. And there was plenty of room for landing on that runway. Such a wide traffic pattern also takes aircraft over Indian Lake. I wonder if this is why so many witnesses saw the aircraft over Indian Lake, contradicting the official flight path..... ?

http://www.airnav.com/airport/jst


Hmmm.....

amazed!
I guess if you're suggesting that it landed there and deplaned pax, I suppose that could be possible....
Zaphod 36
QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jul 16 2012, 06:45 PM) *
To answer your question... Yes, that is a standard left downwind entry for landing at JST runway 33, albeit a very wide pattern. And there was plenty of room for landing on that runway. Such a wide traffic pattern also takes aircraft over Indian Lake. I wonder if this is why so many witnesses saw the aircraft over Indian Lake, contradicting the official flight path..... ?


Maybe the reason for the wide pattern was the high speed of the aircraft(?). How would you perform the circuit with 500 mpH, Rob?
For Indian Lake I currently know only "Jim Stop" as witness of a big aircraft.

There are too many "coincidences" in this case:

1. Transponder on at 10:00am (Link) and change of course at the same time.
2. 45-Angle at the NDB(Stoystown) for Johnstown Airport. Witness: Terry Butler.
3. Course parallel to runway 33. Looks like a standard left downwind for a landing. Wind was okay.
4. Evacuation of Johnstown Airport around 10:00am. Look at John Doe`s The Johnstown "Terror Team" Cover-up
rob balsamo
QUOTE (Zaphod 36 @ Jul 19 2012, 05:56 AM) *
Maybe the reason for the wide pattern was the high speed of the aircraft(?). How would you perform the circuit with 500 mpH, Rob?
For Indian Lake I currently know only "Jim Stop" as witness of a big aircraft.

There are too many "coincidences" in this case:

1. Transponder on at 10:00am (Link) and change of course at the same time.
2. 45-Angle at the NDB(Stoystown) for Johnstown Airport. Witness: Terry Butler.
3. Course parallel to runway 33. Looks like a standard left downwind for a landing. Wind was okay.
4. Evacuation of Johnstown Airport around 10:00am. Look at John Doe`s The Johnstown "Terror Team" Cover-up


There were a few other witnesses to the aircraft over Indian Lake... i forget who they were, but I think Dom interviewed some of them. I'll alert him to this thread.

I know Val (the famous photo) claims to have seen the aircraft "coming from over" Indian Lake (which completely contradicts the govt story).

As for the NDB itself use for navigation, I highly doubt it as the weather was severe clear. You could see the airport 20+ miles away. No need to navigate via any beacon. Just use your eyes. But, with that said.. it could have been used for a wide entry to left downwind runway 33 at JST... again, speculation tho...

As to your question regarding speed, yes, the pattern would be wider the faster you fly....

I did not know the JST airport was evacuated at 10am. If so, then yes, JST is a good candidate for landing the aircraft observed over shanksville.

With that said, just because the flight path appears to line up with a wide left patten at JST, it is not proof it did land at JST. People are going to require much more evidence... but it is a lead. Thanks for posting this...
Domenick DiMaggio CIT
the plane was quite high at that point from bob blair and doug millers account, they were close to the autowreckers on route 30 when they first saw it. for argument sake, it was 'flight 93' they and terry saw. way too high to know for sure. it was heading towards the southeast though. this would put it on a direct path over indian lake. that all lines up. notice he didnt say it was upside down or moving in an erratic behavior. this is only a couple miles the way the crow flies as they say....

as for landing at johnstown, i don't believe it did. but i cant say one way or another where it went after indian lake. its just speculation on my end at that point....

although i recall the johnstown air traffic controllers stating something about how odd it was that this plane was on their radar but they couldnt establish a visual contact with it....

although the tower was evacuated....

http://youtu.be/ot-LIDl6Me0

theres a small clip right at the beginning of this about it
rob balsamo
QUOTE (Domenick DiMaggio CIT @ Jul 19 2012, 03:30 PM) *
the plane was quite high at that point from bob blair and doug millers account,



What is "quite high"?

500 feet? 1000 feet? 2000 feet? 10,000 feet?

"quite high" to an observer on the ground could be 2000 feet agl.... easy-peasy to land at JST from that distance and speed at that altitude. In fact, 2000 AGL would be considered low for the approach at such a wide pattern, but would seem "quite high" to an observer on the ground.
Domenick DiMaggio CIT
indian lake witnesses : jim brandt, tom spinelli, john fleegle, carol delasko, jim stop.....i think there are a few more but i would have to dust off my notes from way back when. lol

barry lichty too, he was the mayor. in loose change final cut dylan interviewed him and he said he heard it fly over his house [which is right before the marina where the other witnesses were] coming from the direction of the crash site. but then he states to dylan he doesn't believe it was flight 93 but that was the only possibility.
Domenick DiMaggio CIT
QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jul 17 2012, 06:34 PM) *
What is "quite high"?

500 feet? 1000 feet? 2000 feet? 10,000 feet?

"quite high" to an observer on the ground could be 2000 feet agl.... easy-peasy to land at JST from that distance and speed at that altitude. In fact, 2000 AGL would be considered low for the approach at such a wide pattern.



low enough to get their attention but not good enough to really identify it other than a commercial airliner. from their accounts i estimate less than 3000 feet. it was treetop level [100-200 feet] by the time it got to viola saylors house. its a rather short distance from the autowreckers to viola's the way the crow flies so perhaps even lower than 3000......nothing they said implied that it would be in the 10k+ range.....
rob balsamo
QUOTE (Domenick DiMaggio CIT @ Jul 19 2012, 03:37 PM) *
low enough to get their attention but not good enough to really identify it other than a commercial airliner. from their accounts i estimate less than 3000 feet. it was treetop level [100-200 feet] by the time it got to viola saylors house. its a rather short distance from the autowreckers to viola's the way the crow flies so perhaps even lower than 3000......nothing they said implied that it would be in the 10k+ range.....



Thanks Dom... where is viola saylors house?

(And i'd like to extend a warm welcome to the many 'duhbunkers' interested in reading this thread. One would think after many years of claiming the "truth movement is dead", the usual suspects 'duhbunkers' might have moved on with their lives.... lol)

Zaphod, looks like you may have struck a nerve... good work!
Domenick DiMaggio CIT
QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jul 17 2012, 06:42 PM) *
Thanks Dom... where is viola saylors house?

(And i'd like to extend a warm welcome to the many 'duhbunkers' interested in reading this thread. One would think after many years of claiming the "truth movement is dead", the usual suspects 'duhbunkers' might have moved on with their lives.... lol)

Zaphod, looks like you may have struck a nerve... good work!



at the time she was living on pompey hill road, i forget the exact house number off the top of my head....
rob balsamo
QUOTE (Domenick DiMaggio CIT @ Jul 19 2012, 04:00 PM) *
at the time she was living on pompey hill road, i forget the exact house number off the top of my head....



Yeah, anywhere along that road the FDR shows the aircraft well above 3000 agl.... not "tree-top" level as witnessed. This is yet another witness which contradicts the govt data as we pointed out in "Flight Of United 93" with the NYT graphic.



Thanks Dom.
Domenick DiMaggio CIT
salute.gif
Zaphod 36
QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jul 19 2012, 03:05 PM) *
As for the NDB itself use for navigation, I highly doubt it as the weather was severe clear. You could see the airport 20+ miles away. No need to navigate via any beacon. Just use your eyes. But, with that said.. it could have been used for a wide entry to left downwind runway 33 at JST... again, speculation tho...

I doubt that the pilot could have seen the airport when he was "quiet high"(2000-3000 feet) in this hilly area. I also doubt that he knows the direction of the runway(northwest).
It is fact that the plane makes a 45 turn at the NDB. I guess its standard to make a 45-turn at a NDB by entering a standard left downwind for a landing(?)

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jul 19 2012, 03:05 PM) *
With that said, just because the flight path appears to line up with a wide left patten at JST, it is not proof it did land at JST. People are going to require much more evidence... but it is a lead. Thanks for posting this...

I dont wanna prove that the plane was landing at JST. I only think it attempted to land there. The conclusion of this should be that the plane was not under control of the hijacker anymore. Another strong hint is the transponder-on signal at 10:00am.
If the CVR was cut around 10:00am, this could explain the "3-minutes-discrapency" at the crash time anyway.

QUOTE (Domenick DiMaggio CIT @ Jul 19 2012, 03:34 PM) *
indian lake witnesses : jim brandt, tom spinelli, john fleegle, carol delasko, jim stop.....i think there are a few more but i would have to dust off my notes from way back when. lol

barry lichty too, he was the mayor. in loose change final cut dylan interviewed him and he said he heard it fly over his house [which is right before the marina where the other witnesses were] coming from the direction of the crash site. but then he states to dylan he doesn't believe it was flight 93 but that was the only possibility.

Nobody except Jim Stop has claimed to have seen a big plane. Brandt, Spinelli, Fleegle, Delasko are witnesses of the famous white jet and only earwitnesses. Thats my knowledge. Lichty also only heard the screaming thing. He states "it was coming from that direction(?) The direction is speculation. Jim Stop is either not existing or a false name. We have not one eyewitness for a big airliner over Indian Lake.



What are you thinking about this flight path? I remember this graphic is from New York Times.
In this path the Flight 93 makes a turn to the left("base"), and in this base(north of Indian Lake near Val) something happened. It could have been the white jet over Mcelwain, because this jet "banked to the right", to this direction too.
The white jet was observed by Spinelli and heard from several witnesses at Indian Lake(Marina, Golfcourse). Maybe they heard the white jet shooting a missile to Flight 93. This would explain the "Confetti Rain" over Indian Lake moments after the explosion(crash), observed by Delasko. Out of control and damaged, Flight 93 finds his way to the crash side.
Is this a possible scenario?
Is this flight path possible to "perform", Rob?


rob balsamo
QUOTE (Zaphod 36 @ Jul 20 2012, 09:26 AM) *
I doubt that the pilot could have seen the airport when he was "quiet high"(2000-3000 feet) in this hilly area. I also doubt that he knows the direction of the runway(northwest).
It is fact that the plane makes a 45 turn at the NDB. I guess its standard to make a 45-turn at a NDB by entering a standard left downwind for a landing(?)


Picking out an airport at 2000-3000 AGL is a piece of cake at 20+ miles on such a clear day. Pilots know everything about the airport, especially the runway, before they land. So if a pilot were to land at JST, of course he would know the direction of the runway.

Entering a standard left downwind on such a clear day is accomplished with the liquid navigation balls in a human head (your eyes). Although as I said, the NDB could have also been used as a reference, but again, it was a wide traffic pattern. A normal pattern for jets at high speed is usually less than 3-5 miles from the airport. The NDB is 14 miles IIRC. And again, the faster you are, the wider the pattern will be.

Also keep in mind, JST does not have a published NDB approach.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/jst

... and it has a VOR on the field. Any pilot would use the VOR for reference when approaching the airport rather than an NDB. But again, this doesn't mean the NDB couldn't have been used. It is quite interesting the turn was initiated at the NDB.




QUOTE
Nobody except Jim Stop has claimed to have seen a big plane. Brandt, Spinelli, Fleegle, Delasko are witnesses of the famous white jet and only earwitnesses. Thats my knowledge. Lichty also only heard the screaming thing. He states "it was coming from that direction(?) The direction is speculation. Jim Stop is either not existing or a false name. We have not one eyewitness for a big airliner over Indian Lake.


Dom seems to feel otherwise after interviewing many people during several visits to Shanksville.



QUOTE
What are you thinking about this flight path? I remember this graphic is from New York Times.


I think it contradicts the govt story and FDR data provided by the NTSB.

QUOTE
Is this a possible scenario?
Is this flight path possible to "perform", Rob?



Anything is possible given enough planning and resources.
Domenick DiMaggio CIT
QUOTE (Zaphod 36 @ Jul 18 2012, 12:26 PM) *
Nobody except Jim Stop has claimed to have seen a big plane. Brandt, Spinelli, Fleegle, Delasko are witnesses of the famous white jet and only earwitnesses. Thats my knowledge. Lichty also only heard the screaming thing. He states "it was coming from that direction(?) The direction is speculation. Jim Stop is either not existing or a false name. We have not one eyewitness for a big airliner over Indian Lake.



In regards to Barry Lichty, the "speculation" was clarified in his interview in LC : FC where he clearly states that is was coming from the direction of the crash site which is why Dylan inquired if he thought it was Flight 93.

True all the witnesses were inside the marina, but they also heard it fly over them which corroborates Lichty. Since all the witnesses on the opposite end of the crash site that I have spoken with that place it headed in that direction i think it's rather easy to connect the dots.

And yes these witnesses saw the little white plane Susan McElwain described as well, but that was after they went outside and after the explosion. Further corroborating McElwain.

http://youtu.be/KXTAgFYyvUE

So how can you say its speculation? If witness group A is one side and see a large aircraft heading in a southeast direction and witness group B is southeast and hear a low aircraft fly over them before any explosion is felt and heard what other possible plane could witness group B hear coming from the northwest heading southeast?

[this already reminds me of why i quit visiting forums in the first place....]
Zaphod 36
QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jul 21 2012, 03:25 AM) *
Picking out an airport at 2000-3000 AGL is a piece of cake at 20+ miles on such a clear day. Pilots know everything about the airport, especially the runway, before they land. So if a pilot were to land at JST, of course he would know the direction of the runway.

Entering a standard left downwind on such a clear day is accomplished with the liquid navigation balls in a human head (your eyes). Although as I said, the NDB could have also been used as a reference, but again, it was a wide traffic pattern. A normal pattern for jets at high speed is usually less than 3-5 miles from the airport. The NDB is 14 miles IIRC. And again, the faster you are, the wider the pattern will be.

Also keep in mind, JST does not have a published NDB approach.

http://www.airnav.com/airport/jst

... and it has a VOR on the field. Any pilot would use the VOR for reference when approaching the airport rather than an NDB. But again, this doesn't mean the NDB couldn't have been used. It is quite interesting the turn was initiated at the NDB.


Thanks a lot, Rob. At the MSFlightExplorer2004 it was hard for me to detect an airport from a "qiet height". ;-)
But in an emergency case: How can a pilot get information about the runway for the next airport?

QUOTE (Domenick DiMaggio CIT @ Jul 22 2012, 08:03 PM) *
[this already reminds me of why i quit visiting forums in the first place....]

Sorry Dom, I don`t wanna debunk you. I just thought without eyewitnesses its hard to argue about the exact direction of the plane and while writing the last post I came across the idea that the plane could have made a turn before crashing or not and the white jet could have flown westwards to Indian Lake("banked to the right"). Maybe this turn was near(about 1 mile) the Marina. This is a graphic(roughly) about my idea:


Tom Spinelli has witnessed the white Jet BEFORE the crash. If the white jet continued to fly on the ridge, he could have seen this jet from the marina. What do you thinke about Tom Spinelli and the white jet?

Carol Delasko watched the "confetti rain" moments after the crash. Indian Lake people reporting falling plane parts. I think its only possible when a damaged plane is flying over this area. In the graphic this area is more the northern part of Indian Lake. What do you know about this?

Val McClatchey heard a plane and caught a glimpse of it. "she heard the sudden surge of a jet plane and saw a silver flash outside." Link
If this was near her house, it would fit for the graphic.
Maybe the plane was crashing near Lambertsville Road(with explosives). If not we have to explain the crater, wind imprints and small debris.

What do you think about this scenario, Dom?






rob balsamo
QUOTE (Zaphod 36 @ Jul 23 2012, 03:15 PM) *
Thanks a lot, Rob. At the MSFlightExplorer2004 it was hard for me to detect an airport from a "qiet height". ;-)
But in an emergency case: How can a pilot get information about the runway for the next airport?


Pilots carry charts of all the airports in the area's in which they intend to fly. Just a quick search i did, but you'll get the idea.
http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/c...tion_charts.htm

And here is the NOS airport diagram for JST which would be included in such coverage...

http://www.fltplan.com/AwDisplayAppChart.e...&WINDOW=YES

That is why when you see a pilot, he is usually carrying a bag that looks something like this... (again, just a quick search i did for illustration purposes)




It holds charts (among other things... headset, flashlight... ham sandwich maybe..).... although the flight bag has since been replaced with a laptop at many airlines and can hold much more information for much less to carry.... now if we can only get it to hold a ham sandwich... :-)

Many on-board FMC's can also hold an airport information database. I'd have to check with our United drivers, but I'm pretty sure the 757 FMC's had such a database.


and finally, if you dont have the chart for some reason... and it truly is an "Emergency", just ask ATC, they'll give you all the information in a matter of minutes if not seconds. Runway length, direction, any relevant frequencies (VOR, NDB, ILS.. .etc), published mins if an IFR approach is needed... etc.

QUOTE
If not we have to explain the crater, wind imprints and small debris.


The only people responsible for having to explain the crater is the US Govt and govt agencies..... so far, they have failed. And the data/information they have provided, conflicts with their story.

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/UA93_Press_Release.html

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/MORE-ACARS-CONFIRMATION.html
Zaphod 36
QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Jul 23 2012, 03:59 PM) *
Pilots carry charts of all the airports in the area's in which they intend to fly. Just a quick search i did, but you'll get the idea.
http://www.mypilotstore.com/mypilotstore/c...tion_charts.htm

And here is the NOS airport diagram for JST which would be included in such coverage...

http://www.fltplan.com/AwDisplayAppChart.e...&WINDOW=YES

That is why when you see a pilot, he is usually carrying a bag that looks something like this... (again, just a quick search i did for illustration purposes)




It holds charts (among other things... headset, flashlight... ham sandwich maybe..).... although the flight bag has since been replaced with a laptop at many airlines and can hold much more information for much less to carry.... now if we can only get it to hold a ham sandwich... :-)

Many on-board FMC's can also hold an airport information database. I'd have to check with our United drivers, but I'm pretty sure the 757 FMC's had such a database.


and finally, if you dont have the chart for some reason... and it truly is an "Emergency", just ask ATC, they'll give you all the information in a matter of minutes if not seconds. Runway length, direction, any relevant frequencies (VOR, NDB, ILS.. .etc), published mins if an IFR approach is needed... etc.


Thanks for all this information, Rob.

My last question:
Could it be that fighter pilots are using the NDB for a landing at Johnstown? As far as I know this area is a military corridor and Johnstown is also used for fighter jets.
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