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IsaacNewton
I don't think any rational person who looks at the overwhelming mountain of evidence can avoid the obvious conclusion that highly placed individuals within the United States Government are at least partly, if not solely, responsible for the events of September 11, 2001. I'm just wondering now, as I survey the seemingly endless list of people whose reputations, credentials and collective experience are literally above reproach....

MILITARY OFFICERS, U.S. GOVERNMENT SCIENTISTS AND RESEARCHERS, U.S. INTELLIGENCE SERVICES, LAW ENFORCEMENT, U.S. FEDERAL AND STATE GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, INTERNATIONAL MILITARY, INTELLIGENCE SERVICES AND GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS AND EVEN 9/11 COMMISSIONERS AND STAFF MEMBERS


Is that it? I understand they've had the courage to step forward and demand answers by signing a petition but.... Where is the outrage? It's been well over a decade now and, presumably, the same individuals who were responsible for this crime, which can only be described as purest evil, are still in control of this country today, and are still actively engaged, right now, in committing further crimes! Crimes which, as someone on the that long list of noteworthy people put it "....may signal the end of the American Experiment". How can this be?

It's going to take more than a petition to resolve this issue. An emergency situation requires an emergency response.... This is an emergency and has been since September 11, 2001. Do they honestly believe that their petition willl motivate the same government that committed the crime to indict and convict itself? If the American people don't take action, and soon, it will be over.

It may already be to late.... I don't know how much credibility to attach to them, but I'm reading on the internet about the Department Of Homeland Security stockpiling billions of rounds of hollow point ammunition, mysterious "facilities" that resemble prisons being built all over the country and large plastic coffins, or "vaults" being stockpiled by FEMA, alledgedly "....just in case something happens". That doesn't sound very good. If anyone has any reliable information about that I'd be grateful to review it, if they'd care to post it.
IsaacNewton
While I'm here in the introduction forum, I think I'll share one of my drawings with you (I was once an artist)....

Here is "The Temple" A Pen and Ink drawing I did using a Rapidograph drafting pen that draws a line about the width of a human hair. About 20x24 inches, all freehand, no preliminary sketch, loosely modeled on a Roman style temple in Turkey I saw a picture of. The technique is stippling (dots). It took between three and four hundred hours. I hope you enjoy it!



EJT
Your missive sounds akin to the lyrics of 'Is that all there is? by Peggy Lee"

There really is only one way out of this mess in which we find ourselves: A New Paradigm Of Government.

You see? The Founders of the United States of America, were working with what they had at the time, and with what they were familiar. The problem though was that they weren't sufficiently far-seeing enough. Their plan was to seek an 'immediate solution' to their present problem.

Thomas Paine warned appropriately enough: "When we are planning for posterity, we ought to remember that virtue is not hereditary."

Even back then, the plan for government was full of holes, and ~that~ was fully revealed with the entirely treasonous, conniving, and machinating Alexander Hamiliton , he with his incessant invidious attacks upon Thomas Jefferson. He further revealed for scum bag he was, when he lead the charge into Pennsylvania against the Whiskey Rebellion.

The New Paradigm Of Government has in its essence, the weakest of governments, for it will be the People themselves who make ALL the law through quarterly plebiscites. No elected or appointed person will have ~any~ power to enact anything, period. For any law, rule, or regulation to be enacted, a bare minimum of 80% of ALL the citizens MUST vote in the affirmative, or the suggested legislation fails, and cannot again be placed before the People for a period of 20 years.

Excepting the various Constitutions, any law, rule, or regulation may be overturned at any plebiscite with no less than 20+% of citizenry, inasmuch as that would indicate fewer than 80% supported the continuation of that law.

Further yet, ALL laws, rules, and regulations —save the various Constitutions— expire at the end of their third year of existence, unless 80% of the citizenry votes to extend for another three years.

Additionally, in NO CASE —regardless— shall any law, rule, regulation or other effect in law be enacted which shall in any way, manner, fashion, shape or form, impede, diminish, infringe, limit, contravene, negate or otherwise intrude upon whatever individual right of the People.

In its essence, the New Paradigm places ALL the power —and responsibility— of government into the hands of the People where it rightfully, and justly belongs.

If the People are making the law, then they WILL know exactly what is in that law, and how it will affect their lives.

Had A New Paradigm Of Government been in operation, then the United States Of America would NOT have been in any of the wars in which it had engaged, from 1812 onwards.



rockymtriser
Good question there, Mr. Newton! (and, btw, awesome drawing too!) I re-posted your comment on Facebook, as something worth pondering.

In my humble opinion, the petitions calling for a new investigation are just another means of spreading awareness of the depths of this Crime. Would a U.S. government led investigation resolve anything? Most likely not. Perhaps what is really needed is an international tribunal on the scale of Nuremberg. At any rate, real change will not come about until the "outrage" that you look for materializes, that is, until awareness becomes prevalent enough in society to finally tip the scales. From what I hear it is still barely 50% of the U.S. population that are questioning the official story of 9/11. What is up with the other half? Too stupid to think? Too wrapped up in their daily lives, or too afraid of what they might learn? The change to a new "paradigm" is gradual I think, but it is happening.

On the question of DHS preparations for wide spread civil unrest, of basically war against the American people, I think this is definitely something to be alarmed about. I have probably read the same internet reports as you have, such as those from infowars and Jesse Ventura. I have also had opportunity to question a couple DHS goons about this. Early one morning a DHS tactical team rolled up a back woods dirt road here in Montana to invade the home of a neighbor, supposedly due to their 18 year old son downloading child porn and contacting under-aged girls online. They searched the home for 10 hours, questioned all family members and confiscated the family computer. Could it have had anything to do with the fact that the father is a member of a local militia? When I heard something was up, I went over to see, and was stopped in the driveway by these two DHS armed goons. Not allowed to go talk to the family, I instead talked with the agents. What do they have to say about this massive stock-piling of ammunition by DHS I asked. One claimed to know nothing about it. Really, I asked... so you never go online or read the news? The second guy admitted knowing about it, but feigned indignation, claiming the bullets are used for practice, and are not excessive. They just need that many to hone their skills you know. Really, I asked... with hollow points? Yes, he says, it is important to practice with the same ammo you would use in the field... (!!!) Good grief... what turnip truck did he think I fell off of? Hollow points are designed for maximum damage to humans; they are not generally used for practice due their higher cost. It is comical to suggest the difference in weight is something a shooter would notice. If that were true, then after every shot the shooter would have to re-calibrate his aim, since the gun would become that much lighter... lol. Anyway, what this encounter told me is that DHS is a den of liars, from the top right down to the hired goons, and is not to be trusted.
amazed!
QUOTE (rockymtriser @ Nov 15 2013, 10:00 AM) *
Good question there, Mr. Newton! (and, btw, awesome drawing too!) I re-posted your comment on Facebook, as something worth pondering.

In my humble opinion, the petitions calling for a new investigation are just another means of spreading awareness of the depths of this Crime. Would a U.S. government led investigation resolve anything? Most likely not. Perhaps what is really needed is an international tribunal on the scale of Nuremberg. At any rate, real change will not come about until the "outrage" that you look for materializes, that is, until awareness becomes prevalent enough in society to finally tip the scales. From what I hear it is still barely 50% of the U.S. population that are questioning the official story of 9/11. What is up with the other half? Too stupid to think? Too wrapped up in their daily lives, or too afraid of what they might learn? The change to a new "paradigm" is gradual I think, but it is happening.

On the question of DHS preparations for wide spread civil unrest, of basically war against the American people, I think this is definitely something to be alarmed about. I have probably read the same internet reports as you have, such as those from infowars and Jesse Ventura. I have also had opportunity to question a couple DHS goons about this. Early one morning a DHS tactical team rolled up a back woods dirt road here in Montana to invade the home of a neighbor, supposedly due to their 18 year old son downloading child porn and contacting under-aged girls online. They searched the home for 10 hours, questioned all family members and confiscated the family computer. Could it have had anything to do with the fact that the father is a member of a local militia? When I heard something was up, I went over to see, and was stopped in the driveway by these two DHS armed goons. Not allowed to go talk to the family, I instead talked with the agents. What do they have to say about this massive stock-piling of ammunition by DHS I asked. One claimed to know nothing about it. Really, I asked... so you never go online or read the news? The second guy admitted knowing about it, but feigned indignation, claiming the bullets are used for practice, and are not excessive. They just need that many to hone their skills you know. Really, I asked... with hollow points? Yes, he says, it is important to practice with the same ammo you would use in the field... (!!!) Good grief... what turnip truck did he think I fell off of? Hollow points are designed for maximum damage to humans; they are not generally used for practice due their higher cost. It is comical to suggest the difference in weight is something a shooter would notice. If that were true, then after every shot the shooter would have to re-calibrate his aim, since the gun would become that much lighter... lol. Anyway, what this encounter told me is that DHS is a den of liars, from the top right down to the hired goons, and is not to be trusted.



Good post.

IMO, most folks that believe the official story do so involuntarily. Something subconscious inside their head will not let them confront the truth, so they fall into the "ignorance is bliss" mindset.
EJT
QUOTE (amazed! @ Nov 13 2013, 01:16 PM) *
Good post.

IMO, most folks that believe the official story do so involuntarily. Something subconscious inside their head will not let them confront the truth, so they fall into the "ignorance is bliss" mindset.


It's the way in which those people are raised: Question nothing, and believe everyone, especially if it happens to be said on the TEE VEE. blink.gif
hanky
Is that it? Maybe not. Any practical suggestions on how to put us directly onto a more wholesome and honest course?
I am at a loss, other than to keep spreading awareness. Their hubris will lead to a situation where this may be a trump card. It is difficult to adjust to these massive incongruities and timescales.
IsaacNewton
rockymtriser "I re-posted your comment on Facebook, as something worth pondering."

Nice to meet you (and all).... Is there a link to that? I'd like to read the comments, if any.
IsaacNewton
Hello hanky (nice to meet you)....

Hanky "Any practical suggestions on how to put us directly onto a more wholesome and honest course?"

It seems to me that, in view of the overwhelming magnitude and urgency of the situation, and the all but certain dire consequences of continued inaction, that a more confrontational approach would bring the issue to the fore internationally (ideally resulting in boycotts, embargos and other economic sanctions). This would hurt the United States (and its people), and it must be hurt, to force it take some kind of action to finally address the reality and horror of what has occurred, and correct it.

I know that many protests, in the past, that would not otherwise have made headlines did make headlines, both here and abroad, when just one well known person or celebrity took part and intentionally got themselves arrested for civil disobedience.

Just imagine, for a moment, what the reaction would be, internationally, if all the people on that list were to assemble at "Ground Zero", or outside the White House for a protest, similar to or modelled after the "Occupy Movement" protests, along with any other like minded people who could be persuaded to participate, and get themselves arrested. Global awarenes of this genuine ongoing emergency and continuing crime would be greatly magnified, and may even spur some sort of immediate international intervention.

It would be a start.
IsaacNewton
Hello EJT....

EJT "There really is only one way out of this mess in which we find ourselves: A New Paradigm Of Government."

I've considered similar ideas, but I think we can agree that there's very little chance of any meaningful consensus being reached by the people on that. The Constitution is a beautiful and magnificently crafted document. If followed, it can and will serve us as well.

One change that (in my opinion) must be demanded, one which would immediately and dramatically impact The Constitution's efficacy, for the good of the people, would be to outlaw the practice of lobbying, which, as anyone can see is really nothing more than an institutionalized form of bribery that wholly subverts the will of the people. The exclusive access to legislators granted to lobbyists acting in the interest of large corporations (among others) has eroded the very foundation of this democracy.

On this, I think there's a much better chance of consenus being reached by the people. The Supreme Court's revolting decision to protect this activity as "free speech" would have to be overturned. Without that first step, nothing else the people do will make a difference.

That would be a great start on the road back to self governance by the people, which is clearly not happening currently, and has not been happeningfor a very, very long time.
rockymtriser
.... Is there a link to that? I'd like to read the comments, if any.
[/quote]

https://www.facebook.com/rockymtrider

I looked this morning and there were no comments. I assumed the crickets were telling me that people are getting tired of hearing about it. I noticed that none of my posts of late have had any comments. hmmm... Then I noticed that my privacy settings had gotten messed up, and only a couple people were being allowed to see it. doh1.gif Fixed that, but now that it is day old news it may not be seen by many. lol... always complications...
amazed!
QUOTE (EJT @ Nov 15 2013, 11:31 AM) *
It's the way in which those people are raised: Question nothing, and believe everyone, especially if it happens to be said on the TEE VEE. blink.gif



Exactly right, the behavioral conditioning has been going on for a long time.

But we know that in a time of universal deception, speaking the truth is a radical act. My opinion is that most people are certainly interested and curious about just what the truth is. I think they're just afraid to talk about it in public? Who knows, but those who are willing to talk about it in public all understand that they've been fooled.
amazed!
QUOTE (hanky @ Nov 15 2013, 02:05 PM) *
Is that it? Maybe not. Any practical suggestions on how to put us directly onto a more wholesome and honest course?
I am at a loss, other than to keep spreading awareness. Their hubris will lead to a situation where this may be a trump card. It is difficult to adjust to these massive incongruities and timescales.



At some point, we're dealing with a psychological phenomenon, and it must be faced. How and why do humans practice denying reality? I suppose everyman has been in denial himself, for some time. Or have the urge to practice denial, to fool oneself into believing something else that does not comport with reality.

I completely agree that spreading awareness is probably the only course there is. cheers.gif
IsaacNewton
So.... for a variety of reasons (correct me if I'm wrong), the best thing to do is to keep the discussion alive so that hopefully, at some point, someday, somebody with the ability to takes action and finally does something about it. That strategy didn't work out so well for the citizens of Germany a while back, and I don't think it's going to work out so well for us now either.

I wonder. Should I write an open letter to all those gifted, illustrious people who signed the petition? To all the people on that list, asking them.... In view of the fact that no satisfactory response to your obviously well founded concerns have been forthcoming, isn't it your duty, as verifiably knowlegable persons, with unimpeachable collective experience, credibility and expertise, to take some kind of action greater than that already taken?
poppyburner
QUOTE (IsaacNewton @ Nov 15 2013, 09:47 AM) *
I don't think any rational person who looks at the overwhelming mountain of evidence....


But pathetically after 12 years: no (even attempted) explanation nor proof.

I gather that this very community of experts, can't even decide whether or not Boeing 757s & 767s could have flown at the claimed and witnessed combination of speeds and altitudes.

Then there are the continued debates on one's ability to make cellular phone calls from the alleged plane altitudes.

Did a plane hit The Pentagon?

Was there or wasn't there a "pod" attached beneath Flight 175?

Then there are the preposterous: no planes-"Vicsims" theories.

The only real consensus I see from the September 11th sceptics, is to decry 9/11: "an inside job" and to passionately claim that a controlled demolition brought down the world trade center; throwing in the terms "at freefall speed" & "in its own footprint".

I have no doubt that at least the U.S. government did plan and execute those attacks; and each day (since I started four months ago) make steady progress in my comprehension.
But let's not delude ourselves that a mountain of conjecture, error, doubt and above all suspicion, amounts to a compelling case for the prosecution.
IsaacNewton
Throwing in the terms "at freefall speed"? This is one of those rare instances where the "Official Conspiracy Theory" and the alternative, or so called "Truther Conspiracy Theory" actually intersect in agreement on one point, and that is WTC 7 came down at gravitational acceleration (free fall).

So, when you say that the words "at free fall speed" are just being thrown in your actually talking issue not only with David Chandler, the High School teacher that first brought attention to it, but also with the NIST itself, which conducted a formal analysis of WTC 7 video and refined David Chandlers approximation of 2.5 seconds down to 2.25 seconds.

It's a matter of official record that WTC 7 came down at gravitatonal acceleration (free fall) for 8 stories, or 105 feet.

How's the Air Force treating you?
IsaacNewton
poppyburner "But pathetically after 12 years: no (even attempted) explanation nor proof."

Exactly! I'm really upset with the NIST about that too. Looks like a clear case of....

....Guerrilla's in the NIST

rockymtriser
"But pathetically after 12 years: no (even attempted) explanation nor proof..."

I would take issue with this statement, as there have certainly been proofs uncovered and solid explanations asserted over the last 12 years. But I do get your point: there do remain questions and disagreements in the community of honest researchers. So how can we step forward making demands of those esteemed ones who have spoken up about inconsistencies of the government story, insisting that they confront the government directly, camping out on the White House lawn and carrying rebellious placards to force the wicked government to do our bidding. To do what exactly? Who exactly are we to string up?

Change will follow a natural sequence. At the stage we are presently in what is totally appropriate is to keep calling for a real, independent investigation. This is what is needed to resolve the many questions about what really happened, because there is so much information that we the public just do not have access to. The rudimentary truths that validate such a call are the proofs which have been uncovered, primarily I think the solid evidence of explosives used to take down the WTC 1,2 and 7, as presented by Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth. This evidence puts NIST and fool debunkers like those at Popular Mechanics to shame.

And the other process currently underway is the spreading of awareness among the population. This is having an effect, as can be seen by the recent attempt by the government to drag us into another conflict with Syria being shredded. People are waking up, however slowly it may sometimes seem. When a critical mass is reached, something like the story of the 100th monkey, overwhelming change will just happen. The government may try another false flag, only to be met by a resounding "bullshit" from the people, "we are not backing you up anymore!"

For now, we are still in a real battle, an "information war" if you will. So what do you do when in the middle of a fight? You just keep fighting! Don't give up.
poppyburner
Newton,

To be clear, I'm not disputing the claim's accuracy, but rather making an example of the ubiquitous buzz phrase in lieu of a thorough, plausible, explanation (on our part).

After all these years, can you confidently tell me what happened to the passengers and crew? Surely a fundamental question? Based on all I've seen hitherto, this issue alone seems to be something of a black hole in the 9/11 Truth movement; which is in shameful disarray.

rockymtriser,

Thanks for the encouragement (which I echo).
Sure, there are some excellent bits and pieces, but unlike the triumphing U.S. government, we've embarrassingly no complete tapestry, and are unsurprised that the public's ignoring/dismissing us?

The September 11th attacks are and will continue to be the pretext and nucleus of innumerable, self-righteous, subsequent atrocities in the 21st century. I believe that our only realistic hope in toppling this gargantuan avalanche of evil, is to finally address its crux: what actually happened on that day???

Not: what was weird, what doesn't add up, what's blatantly suspicious; instead, a lucid, comprehensive, account, simple enough for laymen to mentally apprehend and us all to succinctly propagate.


Poirot would be spinning in his grave.
IsaacNewton
poppyburner "....instead, a lucid, comprehensive, account, simple enough for laymen to mentally apprehend and us all to succinctly propagate."

Right.... WTC 7 would be perfect for that. It's been thouroughly researched and clearly explained (a complete theory that's consistent with physical principles) now for some time, and the principles involved are easily understandable to the layman.
IsaacNewton
poppyburner "To be clear, I'm not disputing the claim's accuracy...."

While the accuracy of the original claim by the High School teacher David Chandler based on the video may have been in question, the formal analysis of the video conducted by the NIST refined and verified the finding. There's no longer any worry about the "claim's accuracy" or any disagreement whatsoever that free fall occurred for 8 stories, or 105 feet.... It's an officially recorded matter of fact.

poppyburner "....but rather making an example of the ubiquitous buzz phrase in lieu of a thorough, plausible, explanation (on our part)."

Actually, it looks like the buzz phrase "free fall" works quite nicely.... It remains (officially) unexplained.
IsaacNewton
poppyburner "After all these years, can you confidently tell me what happened to the passengers and crew? Surely a fundamental question? Based on all I've seen hitherto, this issue alone seems to be something of a black hole in the 9/11 Truth movement; which is in shameful disarray."

There's a whole constellation of questions (of varying significance) needing answers, but it won't be productive to ask them all at once. Independent researchers seem increasingly focussed on the unique circumstances surrounding WTC 7.

The only "black hole" is the one the government is creating, as it continues to this day to conceal evidence and refuse to discuss any aspect of it and label anyone who questions it as crazy, dangerous or both.... Very disturbing.
poppyburner
But can you conclusively link WTC 7 or its destruction to any crime? It doesn't even get a mention in the 9/11 Commission's report.

This evokes Truther Abby Martin (now a Russia Today television presenter) deeming Building 7 to be the most compelling piece of evidence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwANnpfE7L4 @ 1:31 ...but didn't explain why.

In my experience the "free fall" charge doesn't seem to satisfy the common man.

I'm not calling for answers to every question. Just a cogent, chronological description of the main actions by the guilty parties in that day, which brought about the well-known results.

Imo, the Salomon Brothers' building, is probably the last piece in a much larger and woefully incomplete puzzle.

C'mon Newton. One can't blame the perpetrators' reticence for our parochial shirking.

'george carlin on 9/11 (our owners won't investigate themselves; dumb slaves don't notice/care)' http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tO8vs2VNJUg
IsaacNewton
poppyburner "But can you conclusively link WTC 7 or its destruction to any crime?"

Well, let me ponder that in great detail for a tenth of a second.... My thinking is that it's extremely likely that if WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition (and it was), it would naturally follow that a serious crime was committed. Is that a stretch for you?

poppyburner "It doesn't even get a mention in the 9/11 Commission's report."

Right, I feel you man.... shockingly predictable isn't it?

poppyburner "This evokes Truther Abby Martin (now a Russia Today television presenter) deeming Building 7 to be the most compelling piece of evidence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwANnpfE7L4 @ 1:31 ...but didn't explain why."


It evokes Truther Abby Martin? Oh man, that's rich! Let me get this straight.... You're relying on Abbey Martin for accurate information to solve the greatest crime in American history? Forget about it man, check this guy out.

poppyburner "In my experience the "free fall" charge doesn't seem to satisfy the common man."

First, free fall is a "buzz phrase", next you don't question the "claim's accuracy" and now it's "the 'free fall' charge" doesn't satisfy the common man. I am a common man, and it has satisfied me. It's not a buzz phrase, a claim or a charge.... It's just a fact man!
IsaacNewton
rockymtriser "....there do remain questions and disagreements in the community of honest researchers."

Not about WTC 7. It probably represents the single most powerful piece of evidence there is, along with its "Tenant List" which may well betray the ones who pulled it off. That building had some of the tightest security in the nation, and there are only a handful of people that could have defeated it, and thereby the government.... from within.

If one follows the science, as one must, it's beyond evident now (and has been for some years) that WTC 7 was brought down with explosives. There is no other explanation that fits the physical evidence, the eyewitness accounts and the scientific observations, all of which are consistent with unimaginably simple, and irrefutable, physical principles.
IsaacNewton
rockymtriser "So how can we step forward making demands of those esteemed ones who have spoken up about inconsistencies of the government story, insisting that they confront the government directly...."

How can we not? They're the only ones that can do this. So, maybe not an "Occupy" type of arrangement.... Perhaps a one or two day well advertised protest outside the Justice Department with the international media in attendance, volunteering, even demanding, to meet with the Attorney General immediately to discuss testifying as expert witnesses in a criminal investigation of the WTC 7 demolition.
IsaacNewton
rockymtriser "Change will follow a natural sequence."

So, you believe that with patience, and by calmly continuing to spread awareness, a "natural sequence" will eventually just automatically restore Democracy to the most powerful country in the world after being hijacked (only temporarily, nothing serious) by a covert political entity willing to kill American citizens in furtherance of an unknown agenda? That's a very curious thing to say.... Was it meant to be humorous?
rockymtriser
So, you believe that with patience, and by calmly continuing to spread awareness, a "natural sequence" will eventually just automatically restore Democracy to the most powerful country in the world after being hijacked (only temporarily, nothing serious) by a covert political entity willing to kill American citizens in furtherance of an unknown agenda? That's a very curious thing to say.... Was it meant to be humorous?
[/quote]

Yes, IsaacNewton, I believe in patience and perseverance in the spreading of awareness as paramount to bringing about change. There has been plenty of screaming and frantic shouting down of naysayers, as people vent their justifiable outrage and frustration, but this approach tends to turn people away. What I have seen working is the calm deliberate presenting of the facts. I recall a comment of Geraldo Rivera, who once flipped off a group of "truthers" whose chanting interrupted his live on the street broadcast. He later admitted coming around to questioning the official story himself due to the case being presented by the architects and engineers and the victims families. Bottom line, when those telling the story come across as obnoxious, scary, dangerous, rude and mean, people do not want to listen, while a calm, honest, informed and respectful approach has a greater effect.

And yes, I do see a natural sequence to change, not even trying to be funny here. Perhaps the first phase was the rebellious clamor that turned people off... perfectly natural and understandable, but not effective. "You shouted at me, so now I am going to change my way of thinking to yours" said no one ever... The phase I see happening now is one of spreading awareness while calling for a new investigation. Why not just jump ahead and take it to court now? Certainly we want justice, and we want it right away! But, realistically, there is a sequence which works, and there are well intentioned but poorly planned efforts which fail. We need first to inform the people, to reach a tipping point of awareness, because most cases are swayed by public opinion, like it or not. And then there is "discovery". Sure, there have been plenty of independent investigations done by private citizens, but to bring down the real culprits of this Crime we do need the clout of an official investigation.

I am certainly not claiming to have all the answers, to know how to restore this democracy, and I genuinely do appreciate your thoughts and ideas and spirit. We are in this together.
rockymtriser
And yes, I absolutely agree with the importance of Building 7. It is the Achilles Heel of the official story, making it a natural starting point for investigation of the whole interwoven plot. Once you see how this building fell, while not hit by any plane, you inevitably take a closer look at the collapse of the twin towers, and from there you can't help but start looking at all of the rest of the inconsistencies to this whole story. So yeah, poppy, if you want real evidence of the crime, it is here, and it is overwhelming. Something went seriously wrong with the plan, I suspect, concerning Building 7, so now all that is left is to try to belittle it. That is not working out so well for them. Building 7 was the focus of the latest worldwide PR effort by the ReThink911 campaign. http://rethink911.org/
rockymtriser
One more note: just to say, we are not at a standstill in this movement. Things are happening, so don't be discouraged. If you do get anything going with some sort of outreach to the government by the esteemed parties mentioned, I would back that also. One development I have been following, as I have a close friend involved, is the effort in New Jersey to have an official investigation into 9/11 done in that state. check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd5xpl3zxq4
rockymtriser
Poppyburner, I get the impression that you are looking for a wider view of the whole story of 9/11. Might I suggest watching the new Massimo Mazzucco film "September 11- The New Pearl Harbor"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1GCeuSr3Mk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7mDXHn_byA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DegLpgJmFL8

It does a fantastic job covering the whole story (as well as can be done in a mere 6 hours...) while facing off with the debunkers directly.
IsaacNewton
Thanks for that rockymtriser, you strike me as a reasonable person (didn't mean to come on too strong) and, right.... all in it together.
IsaacNewton
rockymtriser "Yes, IsaacNewton, I believe in patience and perseverance in the spreading of awareness as paramount to bringing about change."

I agree, that's a vital element man, but there are big problems and major implications that go along with the knowledge that WTC 7 was explosively demolished. That approach, however well intentioned, will with all likelihood fail in this situation, since the very law at hand to remedy the situation itself has been taken over, as evidenced by the cover-up, destruction of evidence, continued hiding of evidence and flat refusal to investigate or even discuss the incident, and labeling anyone who questions the official account as crazy, dangerous or both.

The patient, reasoned approach still appears to work at the level of, say, some regional legal issue, something like a labor dispute at WALMART perhaps, or a mayoral recall election. At the very highest levels though, if WTC 7 was demolished.... the stakes get much, much higher.

It would logically follow (open to correction) that if WTC 7 could be explosively demolished without any criminal investigation, charges or anyone being arrested, and looking at the official response (or lack of it) that though the appearance of democracy is being maintained for the time being, in reality....

1. On September 11, 2001, a small group of highly placed rogue elements within the United States government, a covert political entity, took over the United States government. As no one has ever been charged with any crime, it must be assumed that the criminal conspiracy continues to date, over twelve years later.... On that day, the country fomerly known as the U.S.A. (United States of America) effectively ended, and the U.S.C.P.E. (United States of a Covert Political Entity) effectively began.

2. The same criminal conspiracy carried out by this small group of people, a covert political entity, which inadvertantly made itself visible that day but has likely existed much longer (Northwoods, Gladio, etc.) continues to exercise complete control over what was once known as the United States government, operating with impunity right up to the present.... There can be no doubt.

3. None of you are any longer living in a Democracy and verifiably haven't been since September 11, 2001 (probably much earlier). On that day the Constitution of the United States was seen to be indefinitely suspended. The Patriot Act, NSA spying, wars and drone programs, torture (enhanced interrogation) and the ever increasing nationwide DHS lockdown, including the stockpiling of "maximum impact" hollow point ammunition, plastic coffins or "vaults", and the construction of numerous "facilities" that look like prisons, clearly shows the control being exercised by this covert political entity over the country.... and it's being steadily reinforced.

4. For as long as this small group of people, this covert political entity, remains in control of this country, the President of the United States and everyone beneath him, the entire chain of command, both military and legislative, has effectively been relieved of the ability to make independent decisions for the country or carry out their sworn oaths to uphold the Constitution.

5. All the votes you've cast since that day, up to the present, and all the votes you cast in the decades ahead that it will take for this situation to be satisfactorily resolved (no guarantee), will be utterly meaningless since, whoever wins any given election (no matter which party), and whoever is appointed to any government post will, directly or indirectly, knowingly or unknowingly, be answering up a new and alien imposed Chain of Command that's under the complete control of the covert political entity that brought about 9/11.... all as part of their official daily affairs.

6. Over the last twelve years, up to the present, and for the decades ahead that it may take to arrive at some satisfactory resolution (no guarantee), you will have been knowingly handing over your tax dollars to a covert political entity you knew not to be the United States government.
During the entire time, from September 11, 2001 until the day it's resolved your tax dollars have been and will continue to be controlled by a covert political entity other than the United States government. The implications, even on a personal level, are staggering.

Finally.... What happens if one continues to willingly hand over tax dollars in spite of knowing that the funds are being illegally misappropriated for illegal purposes by a covert political entity not approved or authorized in any way by authentic legal legislative due process.... Doesn't that make the aware taxpayer complicit as an accessory in the commission of an ongoing criminal conspiracy? As with Germany, would not the ones knowingly doing that then naturally bear some measure of responsibility for any crimes committed by the covert political entity during the time one was aware of it, yet continued to willingly support it?
poppyburner
'... My thinking is that it's extremely likely that if WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition (and it was), it would naturally follow that a serious crime was committed. Is that a stretch for you?' ~ Newton.

Frankly yes. Presuming the demolition went against the owners' wishes; what charge (sorry if that term offends) are you alluding to? Criminal damage?
For what it's worth, personally, I suspect that its Office of Emergency Management was at least used to remotely iniate the demolition of the twin towers, then was later gutted and obliterated itself (along with the entire structure), to destroy incriminating evidence.

rockymtriser,

Thanks for the links. 6 hours! Gosh. Ok, I'll give it a go.
But if it contains the answers I'm looking for, then why aren't they widely accepted and repeated?

IsaacNewton
poppyburner "Frankly yes. Presuming the demolition went against the owners' wishes; what charge (sorry if that term offends) are you alluding to? Criminal damage?

Presuming the demolition went against the owners wishes? What charges? I'm incredulous.... You're saying you believe it may be a stretch to say a crime must have been committed by explosively demolishing a skyscraper without warning that housed offices for the SEC, IRS, CIA, OEM and Secret Service? You at least seem to be indicating here that possibly, depending on the mental disposition of the owner at the time, that perhaps maybe it wasn't a crime after all.... Is that what you're saying?
poppyburner
No. It's merely a stretch to comprehend specifically which crime/s you're implying. Public endangerment?

'Because of the time span of the events, everyone was able to evacuate the building and there were no casualties within Building 7.' ~ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-20...sumed-fire.html
rockymtriser
C'mon Poppyburner, get real... is it really hard for you to comprehend that destruction of a federal building could be a crime? Were it an isolated incident, it would certainly be a huge story all by itself: a 47 story sky scraper housing offices of the IRS, CIA, Secret Service, the SEC (which included the bulk of evidence in the Enron scandal), the NY Mayors office of Emergency Management, three insurance companies and five financial institutions, taken down in seconds, clearly via pre-set explosives. Happening as it did in the shadow of a much larger conspiracy is what has hidden it from more widespread awareness (along with what is surely a cover-up / hush order involving the media...)

You seem to be implying that, hey, no big deal, everyone got out okay, so don't worry about it! Yeah, incredulous is the word. (meaning you are losing credibility in this discussion...)

Also, in fact, not everyone did get out unharmed. Barry Jennings and Michael Hess were trapped inside by explosions occurring below level 8 BEFORE either of the twin towers had collapsed! Barry Jennings later was murdered after speaking out to Avery, producer of the film Loose Change, and just before the NIST report came out claiming there were no witnesses to explosions in wtc7...
IsaacNewton
poppyburner "No. It's merely a stretch to comprehend specifically which crime/s you're implying."

I don't recall implying anything. I do recall you asking me the question.... "But can you conclusively link WTC 7 or its destruction to any crime?"
That's really a rather strange question to ask when one thinks about it.... How could it not be linked to a crime? I said if WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition (and it was), it would naturally follow that a serious crime was committed. That's not implying anything, it's stating a fact. I can't fathom how anyone could possibly see it any other way.

Let me tell you man, when it comes right down to it.... If it's a stretch for you to comprehend that it would naturally follow that a serious crime was committed if WTC 7 was destroyed by controlled demolition, or willful destruction, of a skyscraper that housed various federal agencies such as the Internal Revenue Service, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Securities and Exchange Commission, the United States Secret Service, the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the Department of Defense, the New York City Office of Emergency Management along with a couple of banks and insurers, well, you're going to need way, way more help than I can give you man! I'm just an old Artist/Tinkerer guy. I don't know how many thousands of charges that would amount to. Instead.... Why don't you try to tell me how you think it might not have been a crime?

poppyburner "Public endangerment?"

Yeah, Public Endangerment.... Sound the alarm! You're a riot! First, an investigation. Charges arise from an investigation, not the other way around.

poppyburner 'Because the time span of the events, everyone was able to evacuate the building and there were no casualties within Building 7.' ~ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-20...sumed-fire.html

Relevance? Here again, my impression is that you seem to be trying somehow to subtly downplay the significance of the event. Sort of like saying.... "Well, no one died in that building. So what's the big deal?"

In the same way, you seemed to try to downplay the fact of free fall of WTC 7 too, first calling it a "buzz phrase", next calling it a "claim" and then calling it a "charge". It just strikes me as odd, in fact, just odd enough for me to ask you again....

rockymtriser
IsaacNewton, I absolutely agree with your assessment of the situation we are in. and What To Do about it is a very good question. Obviously the hidden Powers behind the attacks of 9/11 are very powerful and connected. Many who have tried to stand up to them have been destroyed. The government is in their grasp, as you say, and so cannot ever succeed to take them down. So what do we do?

The situation is serious enough to merit civil war, but what chance could civilians have against powers that control a military whose spending exceeds that of the next 30 countries combined! I actually think they would like to see such an attempt, to give excuse to crack down even harder on civil liberties.

So, to my naive mind, there is just one viable option, and that is to continue to spread awareness, because, as powerful as this wicked cabal may be, the People truly are more powerful, did they but know. When awareness of this Crime becomes dominant and widespread in all walks of society, only then will power be taken from the hidden ones.

My realistic mind though warns that, though I may hope for the best, and work towards it, still it is wise to prepare for the worst. Chances are, things will get a lot worse before they get better...
IsaacNewton
Yeah rockymtriser.... it's a very tough spot to be in. Especially when the reality of it starts to sink in. It's funny you know, when I'm out and about, how no one seems to be concerned in the least. Everyone's just going about their business as if nothing happened.... talk about a seamless transition!

I don't really know what can be done either. My understanding is that this "arrangement" goes back at least fifty years with Operation Gladio. It's now common knowledge that in 1962, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, all of them, actually approved plans for carrying out secret "operations" that included the killing of innocent American citizens as a pretext for invasion and subsequent long term occupation of Cuba.

Believe it or not, they even approved blowing up the rocket that launched John Glenn into space, and afterward the plan was to fabricate phony electronic jamming equipment made to look like it was from Cuba, again, as a pretext for invasion and subsequent long term occupation.

This was all presented to President Kennedy at the time. He decided not to go that route though and turned down the plans. Looks like it didn't work out so well for him.... Looks like they made an "operation" out of him!
onesliceshort
QUOTE
After all these years, can you confidently tell me what happened to the passengers and crew? Surely a fundamental question? Based on all I've seen hitherto, this issue alone seems to be something of a black hole in the 9/11 Truth movement; which is in shameful disarray.


Hi poppyburner

I'd like to know why video footage of alleged passengers at the check ins or airports has never been shown.

You know, even for a grimey journalistic hype story. Or propaganda.

"Here are the last moments of passenger(s) _insert name(s)_"

Even (US) high profile alleged passenger Barbara Olson? Where was the clambering for even a still image by Fox News?

On a human level, if it were my family member, I'd ask to see the last footage of that person. Have family members asked to see this footage? If not, why not? The most natural and human thing to do is to try and see a deceased family member's last memories, no matter how slight. To hear or read their last words. Something.

It's always something that has struck me as cold and unbelievable.
poppyburner
Rockymtriser & Newton,

I just want for someone to explicitly tell me, what the destruction of Building 7 signifies?

I'm not suggesting that is at all insignificant, but just so that we're clear.

Btw rockymtriser, does trapped qualify as harmed?

QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Nov 23 2013, 02:16 AM) *
Hi poppyburner

I'd like to know why video footage of alleged passengers at the check ins or airports has never been shown.


You may be right, but do none of them feature in the Dulles video?:

'9/11 Hijackers at The Airport Getting on to the Plane - MUST SEE!'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhzdAx7qmz0
rockymtriser
poppyburner, I don't know if you are playing games here, or if you are really this dense. Perhaps burning a few too many poppies?

In a word, the collapse of building 7 is clear evidence of controlled demolition. Can you grasp what that means?

http://www.ae911truth.org/news/41-articles...gun-of-911.html

And are you still suggesting that unless someone is seriously harmed, then blowing up a federal building is no crime? What is the sense in arguing over how harmful it may be to get trapped by explosions in a burning building while breathing toxic fumes and fearing for your life, or how harmful it may be to later be murdered for speaking out when you were warned to shut up...
rockymtriser
QUOTE
.... What happens if one continues to willingly hand over tax dollars in spite of knowing that the funds are being illegally misappropriated for illegal purposes by a covert political entity not approved or authorized in any way by authentic legal legislative due process.... Doesn't that make the aware taxpayer complicit as an accessory in the commission of an ongoing criminal conspiracy? As with Germany, would not the ones knowingly doing that then naturally bear some measure of responsibility for any crimes committed by the covert political entity during the time one was aware of it, yet continued to willingly support it? ~IsaacNewton


good question. Sometimes civil obedience is the problem...
IsaacNewton
Hey rockymtriser.... How you doing man?

poppyburner "I just want for someone to explicitly tell me, what the destruction of Building 7 signifies?"

Again, your need for an explicit explanation and seeming inability to be able to grasp the obvious overwhelmingly significance of the intentional destruction of a skyscraper housing a variety of sensitive federal agencies..... strains credulity.

poppyburner "Btw rockymtriser, does trapped qualify as harmed?"

Can you explain what the relevance is of pursuing that line of questioning? How, in your opinion, would the answer to that question impact the broader implications of a the now mortally wounded Democracy of the most powerful nation on Earth?

IsaacNewton
What happens if one continues to willingly hand over tax dollars in spite of knowing that the funds are being illegally misappropriated for illegal purposes by a covert political entity not approved or authorized in any way by authentic legal legislative due process.... Doesn't that make the aware taxpayer complicit as an accessory in the commission of an ongoing criminal conspiracy? As with Germany, would not the ones knowingly doing that then naturally bear some measure of responsibility for any crimes committed by the covert political entity during the time one was aware of it, yet continued to willingly support it?

rockymtriser "good question"

And there's a tough answer my brother, I found it early on and have lived my whole life by it.... I'm 55 now and my hands are absolutely clean.
onesliceshort
QUOTE
You may be right, but do none of them feature in the Dulles video?:

'9/11 Hijackers at The Airport Getting on to the Plane - MUST SEE!'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhzdAx7qmz0


Hi Poppyburner

Do you know something we or the alleged passenger family members don't know?

If there was just one still image of these people, I think we'd have heard about it by now.
poppyburner
QUOTE (rockymtriser @ Nov 23 2013, 06:21 AM) *
In a word, the collapse of building 7 is clear evidence of controlled demolition. Can you grasp what that means?


No. Not even after exploring that similarly enigmatic link:

'If WTC 7 was intentionally brought down, then clearly it becomes a ‘smoking gun” that must be investigated.'

What's the motive for its controlled demolition and (timing and geography aside) how does it implicate the U.S. government in that day's terror attacks, given they've made negligible political capital from its destruction?

Perhaps it was opportunism. Ridding themselves of a problematic building; or something more diabolical.
I'm just asking for you to unequivocally state what it is that you are so far only hinting at.
poppyburner
QUOTE (onesliceshort @ Nov 24 2013, 01:21 AM) *
...
Do you know something we or the alleged passenger family members don't know?

If there was just one still image of these people, I think we'd have heard about it by now.


I don't know whether or not the media have tried to identify those featured in the video.
It just occurs to me that the people with luggage who can be seen nearby the alleged hijackers at the airport security checkpoint; are plausibly would-be passengers for the same flight.

On a related note, do we know who the young, baggage-less, male, Flight 11 victim '...who sat next to [Karen Booth]... at Boston's Logan Airport and who had looked directly into ...[her]... eyes...' was?

http://old.911digitalarchive.org/stories/details/1820
IsaacNewton
So.... Is this where you guys team up to hijack the thread? I'd just like to know what the plan is, that's all.
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