This is about an hour long

Very solid information about how the climate is being engineered

www.GeoEngineeringWatch.org

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZhh2leRJA

I'm doing my best to inform Wigington that Chemtrails are a cause of so-called "global warming"...not a method to mitigate increase in surface temperatures.

Here are several commercial aircraft caught spraying aerosols that warm surface temperatures....not reflect sunlight back into space. Climatologist, Joyce Penner agrees that artificial clouds warm the climate.
http://wp.me/p2FjTj-3DW

Chemtrails and geoengineering is the #1 issue.

Interesting. Do you suppose they're doing it just to keep the AGW con going, or because they know that actual historical evidence and known astronomical facts (as opposed to computer-aided numerical masturbation) strongly suggest that we might end up pumping out as much GHG as we can muster in a (probably vain) attempt to keep most of the Northern Hemisphere from being scraped off the map by a (overdue) new Ice Age?

They are doing it, geoengineering with the tools of chemtrails and HAARP to bring us to our knees by causing massive drought and floods and getting rid of small farmers many of whom produce organic food. They also do it to squash political opposition say as in the secession movement that was starting to take root around the US, particularly in northern Colorado whereupon the PTB unleashed torrential rains washing out the area with massive flooding. Elsewhere in the world, geoengineering is causing massive drought and food shortages in Africa as well as flooding and droughts world-wide.
Geoengineering provides what conventional warfare cannot; plausible deniability.
Watch the following important documentary.

Climate Engineering Weather Warfare, and the Collapse of Civilization
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZhh2leRJA

Dear Harold, I've looked over your website very carefully. I find it quite interesting (not to mention annoying) how you cleverly twist Dane's position into something completely opposite from the intent of his material in order to promote your own backwards take on geoengineering, which i find 100% misleading. The idea you are promoting is that big oil are involved in a massive aerosol spraying program to 'melt' the arctic in order to access energy resources. In keeping with that idea, you are a proponent of global-cooling, which simply flies in the face of the facts. I must say, your disinfo is quite professionally done. You also align your view with 'suspicious observers', another dis-info hangout. Birds of a feather, flock together.
Jim

I actually think geoengineering is being used for MANY simultaneous programs. As far as "global warming" and "climate change" goes I think the perps and their media call it whatever they need to at any given time to carry out their agenda. Bottom line is they are spraying the crap out of us with aluminum, barium and strontium and god knows what else. Maybe occasional biologicals? Whereas I do think they are using Geoengineering for population reduction the perps seem to be selective about their targets, such as Iran and Africa for outright mass death through famine and thirst. If they REALLY wanted to "off" the entire planet now, they could do it with biological weapons and the perps would still have plausible deniability, so I think what follows below is a pretty good outline of their program(s).

1. Melt the Arctic ice. Why? because they can. With a thawed Arctic they could possibly discover traces of ancient history and lost civilization, untapped resources and new strains of ancient bacteria for biological weapons. What swell guys.
2. Control political opposition with floods, tornados and drought. For example, some believe, as I do that northern Colorado was hit with massive floods last fall to smash a building secession movement that was taking shape nationally and in particular in Colorado exactly where a flash flood hit after weeks of torrential rains
3. Population reduction in select areas – droughts in Africa and Iran, floods and hurricanes in Philippines
4. Generate income through yet even more taxes via carbon credits and carbon taxes
5. Destroy small farming community, many of whom produce organic foods. Droughts and floods all over US, Army Corp Of Engineers then offer “relief” and purchased distressed property. This is already happening.
6. Help tax-seeded, military/CIA created businesses invested in “disaster capitalism” make $$$$, such as companies that make tractors, bulldozers, medicines, companies that produce powdered aluminum, barium and strontium and biologicals for spraying, aluminum resistant seeds (Monsanto), military, homeland security budgets
7. Lastly, Geoengineering provides what conventional warfare cannot; plausible deniability. Geoengineering is being used to hasten the New World Order agenda.

Comments?

Ok, on this point, let's look at what is melting the polar ice, its the rise in water temperature. The loss of albedo, Latin for "whiteness", increases the effect at an accelerating rate. I'm going with Dane Wigington's idea that 'they' are moving precipitation northward into the arctic to slow down the process.

Both polar ice caps are melting, meanwhile, there is a well-funded misinformation campaign to make people think the opposite. That's what opinion i came away with, after doing some research.

The permafrost is melting. Having once upon a time laid gas pipeline in Canada's north, I have an inkling of what that means to Russia alone. There are several studies on the methane release available, which anyone interested in this topic should read. If you dig into the Arctic Methane Emerg website, you will find letters deeper within the site that reveal an alarming picture. The methane release event is in process; and has been for years. I can't imagine this process halting, so basically, we are doomed.

Dane's story is that the MIC is attempting to fix a calamity, (which they caused) and thereby make it worse. Your story, is that they are trying to break it. Both of you can't be right.

Jim

I think the PTB need the people still alive after the mass genocide about to take place from geoengineering to think that "they" did it for them, to save mankind from itself. Think Georgia Guidestones and it's call to reduce the population to 300 million. The PTB want people to move from the shores and they are doing that by creating seaborne windstorms, hurricanes and the melting of the icecaps. As in many of the other perps' operations, they serve multiple purposes and you can bet they will explore the ice-free Arctics and exploit them to the max in hope of finding lost civilizations, ancient history, ancient viruses and microbes that can be weaponized by the military and once-hidden resources to be exploited by the military and corporations.


The problem I have with Wiginton's claim "they" are trying to "fix something they broke" is that the PTB aren"t acting that way. Not even close. Through Geoengineering, the PTB are creating intentional flash floods to get rid of small farmers, many of whom grow organic produce, get rid of political opposition (see northern Colorado flash floods last fall putting an end to the secession movement) and droughts to get rid of entire populations (Africa and Iran). Remember, they are using weather as a weapon.

I think Geoengineeringwatch is great and I follow it daily but I still think they are not quite as savy on this stuff (false flag events, useful idiots, provocateurs, propaganda) as many in the truth movement, however, they are getting there. Wiginton now mentions 911 and makes references to the psychopaths running the show in his latest film. Remember JM, the PTB worship a 50' stone owl in the woods (Bohemian Grove), wrote the Georgia Guidestones and have genocided 100 million people in the last 100 years. NOTHING these people do surprises me.

Witigton should watch his own video and as you'll see at 35:00 minutes in, he can't see the forest for the trees. He says "using geoengineering is like trying to put a fire out with a bucket of gas". He is absolutely correct in that statement, the problem is that there is no "fire" serious enough to use geoengineering to put it out. In reality, "Global warming" is the cover story for use of geoengineered storms as weaponry and "Climate Change" is the result of Geoengineering. Scientist and journalists like Wiginton had thought the government's use of Geoengineering was a misguided attempt to fix a problem that in itself was a fake construct (global warming). In reality they, the PTB are in the process of culling the heard and changing the political landscape of the entire world via Geoengineering. But like I said, there are signs that the Wiginton and the scientific community, as well as the masses are waking up.

Climate Engineering Weather Warfare, and the Collapse of Civilization
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yZhh2leRJA

What Lives in Antarctica's Buried Lake?

http://news.yahoo.com/lives-antarctica-39-...-021555471.html

It would be interesting to see some pilots weigh in on what the author of this video has to say regarding his claim that turbofan engines don't create contrails. Amazing chemtrail photos here, as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=playe...L6b7VTxT4#t=294

More photos of nozzles behind a jet's engine, just above the exhaust at 5:55 of the below video. Rob, can you or other pilots here comment on these photos?

PILOTS - look down - STOP CHEMTRAILS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFpMobDMnfA...tHg&index=4

The 'exhaust' is Pylon Drains, which has already been pointed out in another post.

Pylon Drains

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHm0XhtDyZA</a>

link to talk by Kirsten Meghan ex- Airforce

she lists her email in the vid and will tell you where to send samples for testing

she has key information about the Air force purchasing aluminum and barium salts etc


BTW pylon drains as a source of these very large sprays is a joke (not a funny one)

.... and 'Pylon Drains' are/were a series of fraudulent websites (including your link)
posting false and misleading faked and effing phony pylon drains, in a blatant
attempt to fool most of the people most of the time now that the perpeTRAITOR's hidden
pylon-insert chemspray nozzles have been spotted, identified and exposed for the WWW to inspect...

As has already been pointed out in "The Pilot-Industrial-Chemtrail disinfo trolls are caught red-handed"

MikeR

I do not know what you mean by 'fraudulent websites'?
I had no link, but showed the technical specifications from the Airbus 320 directly.



You have ofcourse already talked to an aircraft designer/engineer and asked how these pylon drains could be used for making chemtrails?
Would pilots know or not know about this do you think?

Observation is the first step in the "scientific method."

To date, there is insufficient evidence to positively confirm "chemtrails" are only contrails. As a result, the working hypothesis that many aircraft are releasing non water vapor emissions that imperfectly mimic contrails is far from being debunked.

We see alleged persistent "contrails" form in conditions where the relative humidity if far below saturation at typically below 50% between 30 and 40K. Persistent contrails can only be formed at near saturated relative humidity.

Too many aircraft tracked on Flighradar24 emit persistent contrails at 36K while the next aircraft at 36K in the same corridor and heading - in less than 5 minutes - flies with no visible trail across the entire sky.

Too many cases of visible aircraft emissions coming directly from the exhaust/thrust of the engine with no invisible water vapor gap is strong evidence these emissions contain non water vapor compounds.

Too many videos and photos show interrupted emissions that shut off and on again in plain view of observers.

Too many observations of emissions coming from wing surfaces of military or unmarked jet aircraft.

Too many reasons why the popular high bypass turbofan engine is less likely to emit water vapor contrails under all conditions when only 20% of the thrust is a product of engine combustion necessary to form a water vapor contrail.

Too many reasons why spraying chemtrails is kept under secret deployment (for the usual excuse of national security) considering NASA and the IPCC confirm that contrails and thin, high clouds (cirrus) tend to warm surface temperatures, change the climate with ultimate impact on natural resources.

So, let's get past the contrails vs. chemtrails debate to challenge the FAA, NOAH, NASA and involved government agencies to go public.

A Senator from Italy has recently started challenging to expose a secret deal made with Italian government and the US Air Force.
http://wp.me/p2FjTj-3Mw

Efficiency of modern high bypass turbofan engines are far less likely to emit water vapor.

The widely used CFM56 is a high-bypass turbofan engine with 80% of the air exhausted by the fan case and only 20% exhausted as a result of the "combustion" necessary to form water vapor contrail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFM_International_CFM56

Dane Wigington has my enormous respect and is one of my closest allies. I simply have a slightly different position on the debate about the use of the term "geoengineering".

I choose to call chemtrails a weapons-based system happening in the troposphere. I simply believe it's a mistake to associate "chemtrails" with SAG, ie Stratospheric Aerosol Geoengineering.

Debate is always good. In fact he has taken my point on this topic and I have taken his point on other adjustments.

You will not succeed in your hostile attempt to troll this forum with personal attacks.

You're apparently offended that I should challenge the IPCC propaganda on global warming, now called "climate change". You are correct. The science is not settled.

I simply attempt to follow the evidence without becoming a victim in a 'belief system".

Suspicious observers is not perfect -but he's not creating the data that demonstrates a prolonged solar minimum with very low solar flare activity during the solar maximum... He's only reporting it. Historically these events are a probable forecast of a period of "global cooling" super-imposed over a covert aerosol campaign attempting (perhaps unsuccessfully) to warm the arctic.

The covert aerosol program was intuitively sold as mitigation for AGW to present plausible deniability to an audience of skeptics.

The real story is that the US and Russia were proposing geoengineering methods to melt arctic ice seven years after the formation of Standard Oil.

BIG OIL has plenty of motive to geoengineer the atmosphere to melt arctic ice as remaining oil resources are known to exist at high latitudes.

Read the entire story on this topic. You may be surprised that global warming was considered a desired result for over 80 years until NASA headed the National Weather Modification initiative in 1966.

Climate Industrial Complex
http://wp.me/p2FjTj-3Lc

Where is the evidence to conclude "chemtrails" are being sprayed on a wide-scale/global basis from aircraft?

We discussed this via PM, Harold... and you agreed it would be easy to prove with relatively low funding.

Why have you not started a "Pilots For Chemtrail Truth"?

Here is your evidence to conclude "chemtrails" are being sprayed on a wide-scale/global basis, Rob.

I would refer to a very well-known video shot (the first 30 seconds of which is seen in the opening of this movie.)

A twin engined Boeing 7*7 is seen from the rear. Whitish trails (plural) are seen emanating from various sources along the full span of the wings. Up to 10 trails can be seen. But the giveaway is the FACT that the entire wing-width of spray coughs and splutters in a way which can best be explained by the last few drops from a supply tank hitting empty. Atmospheric condensation cannot possibly cause such an erratic spray pattern. Some unknown dustification or gaseous material is being emitted from an unidentified airplane in global airspace. The mystery material shows no signs whatever of being related to the airplane's propulsion fuel supply.

Why are We the People not told what is really happening?

Why DO we deny what we can all see, smell, and taste...and why are so many chemtrail investigators being murdered?

I have googled for hours: I can find zero information on what this material might be.... and I can find zero evidence WHY it is. Pilots for 9/11 Truth can perfectly intelligently discuss chemtrailia without emulating Mick West's fracked debunkery, Rob. After all, chemtrails have been around a lot longer than 9/11.

MikeR

No its not, as far as I can see this is a KC-10 triple engine tanker. Triple engines gives nice wide contrails.



Is that so? Why not?



Why use three unrelated murders to promote your theory?

EVERY DAY, CONTINUOUS FLIGHTS PRODUCING A SKY-FULL OF ARTIFICIAL CLOUDS

I've lived for most of the past 9 years in Mexico in the northern part (100-200 miles south of the US-border) of the state of Sonora. There is NO commercial plane route to anywhere that would have any reason to cross this area; and even if there were, the regional airport in the state capital, Hermosillo, is a tiny airport with very few flights to anywhere. Yet, all day long, all year round, planes fly overhead, trailing trails of something. Sometimes you can see 3 planes simultaneously "trailing". They also seem to shift their flight paths so that, with each pass, they cover a different "stripe" of sky. These trails inevitably become artificial clouds (you can see this unequivocally in a very short period of time). Within hours, the entire sky is covered with artificial clouds.

I make no claim as to what is going on. But there has been ZERO public discussion of this daily super-visible phenomenon. And, for myself, I don't see ANY justification for a decade's worth of so much air traffic, so much daily cloud-ing combined with zero discussion.

Everybody in this region says that things used to be very different. They used to get heavy rainfall during the rainy season with a serious problem of rivers massively overflowing Now we've been experiencing a 15 year drought, where rivers are completely dry, forests are/have died off. Big regions of agriculture production in the past, now no longer produce food crops. (Picture a former food-producing country-side that must now import its veggies, fruit, etc. for hundreds of miles away). Now about the only the only thing that grows is hay for cattle consumption. (Seemingly now THE biggest "industry" in the region is the export of cattle to the US.)

What caused me to focus on this phenomenon that had mostly only been in my subconscious before that, is that I spent a year biking 4-6 hours a day. All the highways are one lane in each direction and traffic is light. You can't help but end up SEEING/NOTICING changes in the sky above and right in front of you.

Looking up and seeing those artificial clouds filling the sky every day is mighty creepy.

Why do you always feel a psychopathetic need
to answer a question with another question
without any attempt to address the issues
with any of your own input almerie?

Gracias Pablo and greetings from New Zealand.... :-)
great to have another Biker-Pilot's astute observations
and to read your intelligent questions arising....

So why do other Pilots (claiming to be for Truth) appear
to ignore every artifical chemtrail their aviator shades take on board,
filling one fracked was-blue sky all the way across
to the military-grey other horizon?

One well-known Pilot of our acquaintance was nearly killed
by heartfailure directly caused by atmospheric nanoparticulates
dumped on him one day when the chemicals from the trollplanes
chemical armada completed a Statewide toxic aerosol dump that
landed more patients in hospital in one 24-hour period than Obamacare
could possibly cope with all that week.

Sorry if you refuse to check a word I say almerie ... but more of us
are becoming supersensitive to the desperate need to look after
our own individual and familial health needs, in the face of
a tyrannical Administration hellbent on feathering its own fascist nest.

By all means feel free to ignore what Pablo also tells us, but if you do,
who can ever help you?

MikeR

Your post which I replied to were statements, not questions.

Why the Ad Hom attacks again?

You post statements and I question these statements. Why not deal with that?

This is KC-10 tanker:

KC-10 Tanker

You argue that these contrails could not possibly be caused by atmospheric conditions.
I just ask, why not?

Pablo,

Why did you not investigate instead of speculate?

Hermosillo Airport is labeled an international airport with over 50 daily commercial flights inside Mexico and to the United States.
In the year 2013 1.3 mill. passengers passed through this airport.
The airport has recently been widened to handle heavy aircraft like the 777.
In addition there is also military base present.

It can all be found easily here:

Hermosillo Airport

Furthermore, have you ever heard of high altitude Airways?

Below is shown high altitude Airways around Hermosillo airport situated in the middle of the picture.
The airport is actually marked as an intersection named HMO, which is used in flight planning by commercial flights and others.
So there is a very good reason to see many contrails above Hermosillo.

So what is the relevance of your questions?
Who CARES what the plane is.... NO airplane
has engines across the entire wingspan...
so when we witness chemtrails coming from
at least 10 orifices from one wingtip to the other,
no further correspondence will be entered into
at any insistence the stuff is condensation.

Trails which cough, splutter, turn on and off
several times a second are caused by an erratic
supply tap ... so why will the smart, businesslike
people of great stature and professional competence
(sarc) not tell us what they are up to with their spraying?
Why the need-to-know-military-grade secrecy?
Why?

Just because you find a phony photo that shows lotsa Nasca lines,
is no reason why there might be even one single condensation trail
over Hermosillo.

Your wild generalization is pure speculation.

Nothing rong with speculation, but Pablo's account is completely convincing.

Checker grid patterns are NOT credible except in terms of aerosol spraying...
and IF the resulting chemtrails are as harmlessly benign as I presume you'd
have us believe .... why the world-wide secrecy?

Is your sense of smell so fracked you miss the stink of 'rat'
as well as the sight of the elephant filling the whole room?

First, it shows that you did not even care to check what type of aircraft is shown on the video.
It is not irrelevant if an aircraft has two or three engines, when we are talking about the size and shape of contrails.

Second, what is seen here aside from contrails coming from the engine exhaust is simply aerodynamic contrails.
Aerodynamic contrails is a well-known phenomena:

Aerodynamic Contrails

Pablo said there was no commercial routes above Hermosillo which is factually wrong.

What I have shown on the picture is high altitude Airways around Hermosillo, which is used by commercial routes.
Pablo furthermore said that Hermosillo is a tiny airport with very few flights, which is also factually wrong as i have shown.

If you think the picture is 'phony, then ask any pilot on this forum or anywhere else about the high altitude Airways around Hermosillo.

You can even research it yourself, its not that hard to find.

This is an example of how an official Airways chart can look:

MY "BAD" FOR A KEY MIS-UNDERSTANDING

Hey Almerie,
I've just re-read my initial post in this thread and I guess a good deal of the blame for any confusion could be laid at "my door". When I said that Hermosillo is the regional airport I called it regional because it is very far from where I've lived, 150 miles to be close-enough to exact. BUT I DIDN'T MENTION THE DISTANCE. AND I DIDN'T MENTION THE INTERVENING 2 MOUNTAIN RANGES.

So, let's call this mostly my fault.

Having accepted my proper responsibility for the mis-understanding; now let's get back into the details of "MY" local region (OK?).

If one looks at the map you've so kindly provided, if you look eastward (to the right) of Hermosillo, one sees that a total of only two flight-routes head generally eastward. One southeastward, the other northeastward. The northeastward path passes a good deal to the north of our local region and the southeastward path passes a very large distance from our local region ... thus my contention that NO NORMAL COMMERCIAL FLIGHT PATH CROSSES OUR LOCAL REGION.

From the distance of 150 miles, you can not see the air over Hermosillo. With 2 rows of mountains (that you have to drive thru/over) in between, the air there is NOT the air here by any means.

In terms of the possibility of "our" overhead flights being military. First, there are NO military based out our way in the boonies. Second, the planes fly at commercial speeds and seem commercial-sized; not more quickly and smaller-sized as would military planes do.

Specifically about Hermosillo. I have been to that airport literally dozens of times AND have friends who unfortunately for them, either live super-close to it or are under the approach/take-off routes.

Please trust me: the airport itself is tiny for being the only serious commercial airport within 200+ miles in every direction except south (and the one to the south is even tinier and much less traveled - though it IS more of a tourist locale so they probably do get more foreigners, especially Americans, there).

The airport is almost always virtually completely empty. You never see more than one plane in the air and one plane taxy-ing at the same time.

Heck, we don't average one helicopter fly-over a week! You notice them when they do because they are so incredibly infrequent (and lived 40 years in San Diego, California - for 16 of those years, very near the airport and RIGHT UNDER the income flight path. Then the last 3 years 100 yards from the border fence - so there was constant INS helicopter noise.)

Why? The state of Sonora has only about 2 - 2.5 million people spread out over a huge area (it is Mexico's 2nd largest state). The people of Mexico generally, and of Sonora in particular are quite poor - the overwhelming majority don't have near enough money to buy plane tickets probably even one single time in their lives.
The city of Hermosillo has about 1 million people maximum.

You mention "over 50 daily flights" thru Hermosillo. Think about that. 50 = 2 flights AN HOUR ! One single flight every half an hour. AND, if you check out the size of the planes, you'd realize that they are ALL much smaller than the bigger planes you frequently see in the US.
When you're in the airport, waiting for a take-off or arrival; there are NO crowds: standing, sitting, waiting, in check-in lines that I've ever seen or heard about. (I'd bet there are 250 airports in the US that have more traffic than Hermosillo; and with at least a 100+ of those with many times more traffic.)

I've flown a number of times between Mexico City and Hermosillo. The planes are relatively small and almost never more than half-full as it is.
Most flights between Mexican-US border cities and the much more heavily populated central part of the country (where well over half of all the 111 million live pretty crowded within or not far from Mexico City), do not make a stop at Hermosillo - it is too close to the border for that AND too under-populated.

Keep in mind, we live in the desert, and especially in the 15 year-long drought we've been experiencing, with very low moisture levels, resulting "Normally" in very low amounts of cloud cover. Our days tend to start off with clear skies. Then the planes start showing up; AND they keep making passes continuously throughout the entire day. By late in the afternoon, the sky tends to be completely clouded over. And you can perfectly easily see the trails left behind by the planes slowly, gradually but inevitably spread out and turn into clouds.

Given all the above, the continuous flying over our pretty remote region by planes trailing trails of something that always turn into artificial clouds - raises serious questions about this activity.

HOW MANY PEOPLE PASS THRU HERMOSILLO AIRPORT A YEAR, DAY, HOUR:
If we accept your 1.3 million a year, that equals =
3,600 a day OR
150 people an hour!

If we accept your 50 flights a day, that's
2 flights an hour, with an average of 75 people a flight.

These numbers back up what I just said in my previous post about Hermosillo being a tiny airport with infrequent passenger-ing.
And please remember, ZERO of those 50 flights a day actually passes over our region.

Our region would be a little north of exactly half-way between the two east-ward flight paths your map shows. So they don't come close - we don't see them or hear them ever.

i.e., whatever is flying over us (with their super-visible artificial-cloud-making trails) is NOT commercial.

I'm attempting to make things as clear as I can here.

There are NO commercial flight paths thru our region; AND NO military ones either.

YET, I am NOT exaggerating when I say that our cloudless skies get (near-)completely clouded over with these artificial clouds pretty much every day.

How many normal planes (commercial and/or military) would it take to accomplish that?

How long do the normal CONtrails of a commercial plane last? Do they turn into hours-long lasting artificial clouds? (I don't know, which is why I'm asking.)

I've never stopped to count the number of planes (much less averaged over a series of days) that pass over our skies. But I hope you will trust me when I say that, now that I ask myself this specific question, we are seeing at least a dozen, perhaps dozenS of passes every day.

If these were commercial, that'd be at least 1/4 to as much as more than half of all 50 Hermosillo daily flights. But again, we're not even near either of their very low-frequency eastward flight paths.

P.S. To be clear about another thing I seemed to have "stepped" right into the middle of.
I don't know either almerie or MikeR. I haven't paid nearly enough attention to either of their "work" here at P4T to have become aware of any possible posting "habits" or general stands of either of you/them here at P4T.

I have (nor wish to have) any position in favor of either or against either, either here in this thread or elsewhere.

If anything, I wish both would cut way back on "personal attacks" and exaggeration-tendencies.

Such are in no way helpful to the discussion/debate and reflect badly (though only in a small way) on us other posters and on the site generally. Why not focus on the main points and chill out with the heat? No?

P.S. reason for edit: I took out the word "a" before the word "dozenS" (because it doesn't belong there grammatically).

Well, I am not trying to pinpoint your location, but without that I can not provide information about Airways near you.

I was not suggesting that the contrails was solely or primarily created by traffic to Hermosillo airport, but rather by your statement of the airport being tiny.
After all a 777 can land there now, so tiny its not.



Why would you think that military aircraft would be smaller than civilian commercial?



Hermosillo Airport is certainly not a big airport, but neither is it tiny.
The Airline AeroMexico Connect has it as a focus city.

This is the typical commercial jet ERJ-145 that this Airline use:



Apart from passenger traffic there is also cargo Airlines like DHL, that use Hermosillo.

Please explain how you know this?

Did you research this or are you guessing?

Just because you live in a desert, it would not stop aircraft from passing above you depending on present airways.



I would say that would depend on the meteorological conditions at the given altitudes.

Hey almerie,
I'll try to answer your series of questions in your last few posts in this one post, one by one:

1) After all a 777 can land there now, so tiny its not. (You are referring to my calling the Hermosillo airport tiny).
My response: The fact that a 777 can land there now may just indicate that they have long run-ways, no?

Let me put it like this. If you walk from one end of the airport building to the other, at an average pace, this would take less than 10 minutes; perhaps 5 minutes. Of all the airports I've ever been at (probably more than 25); it is BY FAR the smallest with the only exceptions being the truly small local ones used only by small planes mostly for local/regional flights.
Wouldn't you agree that it's the size of the building (rather than the length of the run-ways) by which one should classify the size of an airport? And wouldn't you say that a 5-10 minute walking time is a pretty tiny size for an international airport in North America?

2) QUOTE (Pablo @ Apr 8 2014, 10:36 AM) *

There are NO commercial flight paths thru our region; AND NO military ones either.


You responded: "Did you research this or are you guessing?"

My response. I don't know what your point is here, really. I have watched our local skies for 6 hours straight at a stretch every day for a year. During that time, I saw multiple planes (whether the same plane multiple times or different planes less-times-each, I don't know) flying what seems pretty clearly to be routes systematically covering the sky strip by strip. These planes were far too many in "passes" to be commercial flights (because there are NO commercial routs thru our area). I've observed this same behavior DAILY pretty much every day for the last 8 years.
I didn't watch constantly then; but if you look up for a few seconds once or twice an hour, what do you see? Another plane, then another plane, then ... ALL trailing trails ... followed by the trails expanding into proto-cloud strips ... followed by those strips expanding, and expanding and meeting and finally covering most or all of the sky.
If that doesn't count as research (voluntary as it may be); then how not?

Besides, according to YOU, there are only some 50 Flights in & out of Hermosillo each day TOTAL. And according to the map you provided, only two routes head in our general direction; both of which, extended further eastwards, don't come close to us.
Using the "research" you yourself provided, combined with my "first-hand" research MEANS that if anybody is guessing it is you (from who knows how far away) and not me who lives HERE and experiences and observes this stuff every day (and who has been to Hermosillo dozens of times).

With only some 50 Hermosillo commercial flights a day, and none of them routed thru our area; you are left with either accusing me of lying OR taking my on-the-spot careful observations (made over the greater part of a decade) that this is:
a) way too many flights per day thru here;
b) way too frequently/consecutively.

Makes me wonder what your agenda is to be casting so much doubt from so much distance from the actual scene.

Do you have the basis to be 100% SURE that (from wherever you are) you "KNOW" what these planes are and what they are doing? Who's the one that's not INVESTIGATING; but instead just guessing, guided by CONFIRMATION BIAS??

3) You say, " Just because you live in a desert, it would not stop aircraft from passing above you depending on present airways."
My response: What a useless statement.
You yourself showed us all the map where no flight paths aim thru our area.

4) I had asked, "How long do the normal CONtrails of a commercial plane last? Do they turn into hours-long lasting artificial clouds? (I don't know, which is why I'm asking.)"
To which you resonded: "I would say that would depend on the meteorological conditions at the given altitudes."

My response: Given that I have stated that we live in desert conditions, do you KNOW anything at all about how this would affect the longetivity of CONtrails?
Hopefully, somebody (more) qualified can address this question of how long they'd last in desert conditions.
As a general rule, I don't remember seeing (anywhere I've lived or visited) where CONtrails lasted so long and were so plentiful as to fill the sky full of clouds.

5) I had said, " (Pablo @ Apr 8 2014, 09:52 AM) * i.e., whatever is flying over us (with their super-visible artificial-cloud-making trails) is NOT commercial."
You responded, "Please explain how you know this?"
My response: see my previous discussion of there NOT being enough commercial airline flights available to be able to make so many traverses while so off-course.

6) You said, "Why would you think that military aircraft would be smaller than civilian commercial?"
Maybe because been at/around both civilian and military airports ALOT; and most of the military aircraft I saw were smaller than most of the civilian ones I saw.

7) You said, "Hermosillo Airport is certainly not a big airport, but neither is it tiny.
The Airline AeroMexico Connect has it as a focus city."
My response: Seemingly you are going question every single sentence and phrase of mine. The fact that AeroMexico has H'illo as a focus city indicates exactly zilch about the size of the airport. AeroMexico is a relatively small operation (compared to US carriers for example). Heck, all of the Mexican-national carriers are relatively small. Why? Because most Mexicans can't afford to fly.
Given your 50 flights a day total in and out of Hermosillo, and AeroMexico being one of only, perhaps 5-10 carriers, that allots them about 5-10 (maximum) flights per 24 hours. Big deal.
It would seem that you are trying to impress people with the "righteousness" of your position and the "wrongness" of my observations (I never claimed they were any more than that, did I?); by the tricky use of words, such as "focus". 5-10 flights per day is 5-10 flights per day more than zero; i.e., very few.

8) In response to MikeR, you said,
"Pablo said there was no commercial routes above Hermosillo which is factually wrong.

What I have shown on the picture is high altitude Airways around Hermosillo, which is used by commercial routes.
Pablo furthermore said that Hermosillo is a tiny airport with very few flights, which is also factually wrong as i have shown."

My response: In fact, I did NOT say that there were no commercial routes specifically above Hermosillo. I have acknowledged that I did NOT make it crystal clear that the airspace I was referring to was to where I live which is quite a distance from H'illo; but, regardless, nothing I said allows you to make this claim.
In fact the information you have provided show that few flights do indeed go in and out of H'illo daily (2 an hour ain't much).

9)

Hey almerie .... why don't you do us both a huge favor, lad?

I've found the actual video we both know so well (even if your
iPhone filing system IS vastly superior to my puny Elitebook's
Hit-n-Run nonscience....)

The vid was posted on P4T last June by no less than our good friend Harold Siave...
thanks Harold, your good work is vastly appreciated even if lesser
pilots show signs of wanting to risk our already-fracked heads with
promotion from their desk-bound MS Simulator into a real cockpit

Why not take another look at the vid clip.... it's very short, no
intellectual demands need be made made on living creatures or Darwin dodos...

I am MOST impressed you noticed the third Whit and Pratney that
my myopia missed... so can you please focus your sharpest peepers
(as well as your astutest intellect) on

(1) the two main 'CONtrails' that obviously emanate NOT from the engines but
from BETWEEN each engine and the fuselage....
AND/OR
(2) the spray sources emanating from parts of the wings
located variously between one flashing vortex light to t'other
AND/OR
(3) the ENTIRE spray pattern shutting off and on with no regard
for anything else in the picture including aerial conditions...

and tell us what it would take for your Minder to permit your positive
comment on the aerosolizing spraying that is so obvious to those
of us who give ourselves permission to look

Oh, and while you're seeking permission to comment, why not
see if you can get sir to tell us all
"if this spraying is so benign like you say contrails are
.... why is the entire world-wide program clouded (sic)
in such military-grade secrecy?"

After all, even the criminal Operation Northwoods has
now been declassified FGS

MikeR

PS Your unwitting giveaway is "Triple engines gives nice wide contrails"...
especially when we LOOK at the video evidence, the 3 engines
resolve into 2 main chemtrails, neither of which emanates
from EITHER or ANY of the 3 engines....

This is what you wrote about Hermosillo airport in your original post.

Hermosillo airport is ranked 9 among the 50 busiest airports in Mexico:

50 busiest airports in Mexico

This is from the website of Hermosillo airport:

General Ignacio Pesqueira Garcia International Airport (IATA: HMO), also known as General Ignacio L. Pesqueira International Airport, is an international airport located in Hermosillo, Sonora, Mexico. The airport handles several domestic flights as well as flights to the U.S. cities of Los Angeles, Phoenix, and Las Vegas. The airport is one of the largest hubs of Aeroméxico and its subsidiary, Aeromexico Connect, handling around 50 daily commercial flights to destinations within Mexico and the United States.
The airport is also a military base, denominated BAM-18, handling Mexican Air Force's flights.
The airport normally serves as the primary alternate airport for flights headed to General Abelardo L. Rodríguez International Airport in Tijuana, therefore, it is not unusual to see planes otherwise headed to Tijuana being diverted to Hermosillo due to unfavorable weather at Tijuana or other technical problems.


So you see this is not "a tiny airport with very few flights to anywhere".



Since I do not know exactly which area you live in, then I have no way of confirming your claim.

And the 50 flights are not a total. You must add cargo flights, military traffic, non-scheduled flights etc.



This is a discussion forum. If you make a claim you must assume that people might dispute that claim.
Until now I am the only one of us who has brought facts into the discussion.
You know that personal oberservation is the worst form of statistics?



Again, I have no way of confirming this until i know your location.
By what you have written earlier, I would guess you live somewhere along the West coast of Sonora state?



Again personal observation is not sufficient.
The Mexican Airforce include several Boeing 727s, 737s and 757s + some C-27s and C-130s.
Why am I the one telling you this? You live in Mexico.

Oh, you mean that the aerodynamic contrails is actually 'obscuring' or 'mixing' with the exhaust contrails like this:

[quote name='almerie' post='10812519' date='Apr 9 2014, 04:55 PM']Oh, you mean that the aerodynamic contrails is actually 'obscuring' or 'mixing' with the exhaust contrails like this:

have it your way then

I suggest we use Notices of Trespass (under natural and common law) to stop this criminal trespassing.
Below is the Notice of Trespass I send out when I see an airplane dumping over my land.
The sooner these NOTICES get sent out, the sooner these assaults on Mother Earth will stop.
------------------------------

TO: Director of the Domestic Event Network - 7-AWA-ARC-FOIA@faa.gov
CC: National Reconnaissance Office - foia@nro.mil, nro_oig@nro.mil
CC: NSA - FOIArsc@NSA.gov
CC: Defense Threat Reduction Agency - efoia@dtra.mil
CC: Rena Kim: U.S.A. Dept of Justice - rena.kim@usdoj.gov
CC: Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) - holcomb.libby@epa.gov
CC: Pam Bondi: Attorney General for the State of Florida - info@pambondi.com
CC: Jack Seiler: Mayor for Fort Lauderdale - jack.seiler@fortlauderdale.gov
CC: Harry Stewart: Attorney for City of Fort Lauderdale - HStewart@fortlauderdale.gov
CC: Mr. DuBose: Commissioner for Fort Lauderdale - BDuBose@fortlauderdale.gov
CC: G. Fairclough: Attorney for Broward County - GFairclough@broward.org
CC: Broward County Department of Health - timothy_mayer@doh.state.fl.us
CC: U. S. Global Change Research Program Office - information@globalchange.gov
CC: Eglin Air Force Base - 96csfoia@eglin.af.mil
CC: STRATCOM - FOIA@Stratcom.mil
CC: CENTCOM - FOIAoffice@centcom.mil
CC: SOCOM - FOIA@socom.mil
CC: NORTHCOM - nc.foia.omb@northcom.mil
CC: Defense Technical Information Center - FOIA@DTIC.mil
CC: National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency - FOIANGA@nga.mil
CC: National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency Inspector General - NGAIG@nga.mil
CC: Casey Frank: Miami Herald - cfrank@herald.com
CC: Mr. Kaye: Aviation reporter for the Sun Sentinel - kkaye@sun-sentinel.com
CC: Walter Honaman: Legal Aid Service of Broward County - WHonaman@legalaid.org
CC: Jim Defede: CH 4 - jdefede@cbs.com
CC: Help Me Howard at CH 7 - helpmehoward@wsvn.com
CC: Trent Eric - CH 10 TAric@local10.com
CC: Jeffrey Bennett: Republic Broadcasting Network - gold@republictradinggroupinternational.com
CC: Heidi Cullen: VP External Communications and Chief Climatologist for Climate Central - hcullen@climatecentral.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Constructive Notice of Trespass: plane spraying Chemicals / Chemtrails

Dear Sir / Madam,

(a) Today at approximately 7:45am a jet flew over downtown Fort Lauderdale in a SE direction at about 35,000 ft spraying a nefarious chemtrail. Upon information and belief these chemtrails are composed of chemicals and / or biological warfare germs.

The Weather Channel finally released a cover story for the illegal spraying. Some assert that these aerosol flights are part of a campaign to wage war on the people of this republic with chemical and / or cyclotronic resonant binary weapons. Whatever their rationale, they do not have my permission to trespass on my property, waste taxpayer money, ruin the environment, waste precious earth resources, nor reduce the God given sunlight reaching my home and body. If they were not hiding their unlawful operation, they would answer requests for aircraft identification. Instead their gangs continue to terrorize the people of this republic.
Upon information and belief, these activities violate the protocols of the Geneva Convention which prohibit the use of chemical or biological weapons on the general public. Nick Begich's interview is surely closer to the truth.

These chemtrails are also a common law theft of my right to enjoy God's atmosphere without intentional, malicious pollution, thereof.
Any and all government agents and entities given NOTICE herein, are demanded to perform due diligence, and investigate.
Any and all media corporations which utilize public air waves or which accept any form of government funding are also demanded to perform due diligence, and stop covering up this malicious and secretive activity. This means that you must start discussing these chemtrails during every weather report that follows chemtrail spraying in your county. You should include visible satellite photos that show the public the chemtrails in your county.

Are you aware that airlines are being coerced to spray chemtrails as well? It is called Operation Cloverleaf. One site has testimony from an upper level manager at an airline.

When the ancient Israelites established a king, they granted him limited powers. His power was to protect his people.
We the People, joint tenants in the sovereignty, established a government primarily for protection. Protection against foreign invaders and protection from treason within.
As government entities, agencies or agents, you have a lawful duty to investigate, once informed of suspicious activity which is endangering the public health.
These natural principles are found in the Articles of Confederation , a compact to provide for common defenses and to prevent war among the states.
Any and all agents who refuse to perform due diligence and respond to these Notices and FOIA requests, take NOTE ...
Silence is acquiescence. Failure to investigate and respond = guilt, of conspiracy, of trespass and of willful failure to abide by your own legal code and statutes.

Under common law anyone involved in these operations is guilty of THEFT. ( of health, of peace, of hope for the future )
Under common law anyone involved in these operations is guilty of TRESPASS ( for the chemtrails landing on my property)
Additionally, pursuant to Florida Public Records Law statute 119.00, and Federal FOIA law (5 U.S.C. § 552, as amended by Public Law No. 104-231, 110 Stat. 3048); you have a lawful duty, once your investigation is completed, to supply access to any information or documents in your possession, or under your control concerning these aircraft spraying above Fort Lauderale and Broward County, Florida, USA. Your lawful duty is NOT limited to supplying copies of documents. I do NOT grant jurisdiction or venue by the simple citation of U.S. Code or Florida statutes. It is secondary to my common law NOTICE.

The Domestic Event Network is defined at 32CFR245.5 (page two)
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/jul.../32cfr245.5.pdf

The following information, documents or data are requested:

1) The flight plan and complete registration data for the aircraft specified in paragraph (a). This request includes, but is not limited to, providing the specific identity of planes used (including their N-number registration number), flight plans, duration of flights, and any other documents pertaining to their spraying activities.

2) Who or what agency is in charge of protecting residents of the United States of America from the spraying of any chemicals by aircraft ?
Please provide their full name, address, phone numbers, fax number and email contact address.

3) If these airplanes are "black ops", is the agency (asked for in #2) even going to have or be aware of the flight plan (if one was filed ?).

4) Are you aware of any instances where some "statute" or "code" mentions that chemical spraying is "legal" under "some" circumstance ?

5) What exactly was this aircraft spraying ? Chemicals ? Biological warfare agents ? Genetically modified mosquitoes ?

Failure to respond or comply to this inquiry will indicate that you are complicit in a coverup of this patently unlawful chemical spraying and will accordingly put you and your staff at risk of a grand jury investigation. You have 10 days to respond. Silence constitutes acquiescence. Any reasonable juror will conclude that you are frauds and, either never properly took an Oath to Uphold all tenets of the Constitution, or that you are ignoring your Oath. Failure to follow your Oath is patently unconscionable.

Failure to reply within the statutory limit of twenty days indicates that you wish to voluntarily waive any statutory exclusions or waivers that you may think you are entitled to.

No Trespassing signs are posted on my property. I have not given any permission for these chemtrails to be sprayed over my home. Biological and chemical sprays are weapons and the Land Use Fee for trespass on my property, with weapons, is $1,000,000.00 per day, per incident.
Demand has been perfected. Remit the amounts immediately.

Thanking you in advance for your anticipated cooperation in this matter of great importance to me, I remain,
Very Truly Yours,

Time is of the Essence,
Don Quixote - in propria persona and all rights reserved
a concerned living soul, a freeman emancipated on the land - County of Dade, State of Florida, united States of America

( REPLY to this lawful NOTICE by email )

Would you not need that irritating little thing called evidence to back up such a statement?



But how many on that list above will you take legal actions against? One? Some? All of them?
Please post any replies you get here.



They are going to love that one.

Hey Quest,
In response to your #s 1-7:
1. Melt Arctic:
a. "Lost Civilization". Recently they've found evidence of (temporary) human habitation of the Bering Straights. However, if as I do, you believe that human beings have been around for a maximum of 2 million years, and more likely, between 200,000 and 500,000; then the Arctic regions were deeply cold and snow covered during humanity's entire existence. Thus, I think there's about zero chance of finding evidence of lost civilizations up there.
b) militarily-usable bugs/viruses: They have an almost unlimited range of things to test without a very expensive de-icing of the Artic. So, again, highly unlikely justification imo.
c) Untapped resources: These can mostly be recognized without the ice-removal. Again, imo, highly unlikely.

2) Control political opposition. Right On. I wouldn't be surprised if the Boxer Day Tsunami was a US Military triggered event. Afterall, "coincidentally" by far the highest death toll was in the Aceh region of Indonesia where there was a mass revolt in progress against the US-puppet regime. Meanwhile, Diego Garcia, smack dab in the middle of the Indian Ocean suffered no human nor "boat" casualties.

3) Population reduction in select areas. Right on.

4)Generate income ... Right on.

5) Wipe out small farmers. Maybe; wouldn't surprise me at all. (This is a relatively new idea for me).

6) Tax-seeds. Right on; wouldn't be anything new

7) Plausibly-Deniable Warfare. Right On

My overall "grade" for your post here: At least 80% good.
Pablo

Ambitious list. If we could get a response from this, we would have already be on our way to a new public investigation of 9/11. We simply have no Justice Department in the US willing to take on these huge issues.

You should already know the answer, Rob - This is a natural place to start since the pilots on this 9/11 forum have demonstrated a commitment to "truth" and fact-based analysis. This forum "should" be the best place to start looking for allies however the resistance to this topic has been unexpected and disappointing....Cheers

Rob,

You should know that scientific "observation" is the essential first step in forming a working hypothesis. Ater all, observation is the method used by you and Pilots for 9/11 Truth to show conclusive evidence in your work.

Looking up to see an unusual sky full of jet aircraft engine emissions from horizon to horizon defies explanation when measured atmospheric conditions are far below conditions for formation of "persistent contrails" (PC's)

Perhaps pilots on this forum honestly don't know that near-saturated Relative humidity (RH) at flight level is required to induce a PC or a Spreading PC.

Having a working knowledge of what it takes to produce a persistent contrail makes it easy to demonstrate these unusual trails are not water vapor.