The RCC uses this passage from 2 Machabees 12 to support their doctrine of purgatory and praying for the dead and offering money for the expiation of their sins

but

The slain men (Jews) were whorshiping idols

2 Machabees 12
40 And they found under the coats of the slain some of the donaries of the idols of Jamnia, which the law forbiddeth to the Jews: so that all plainly saw, that for this cause they were slain.

First, Rome says that those who die in mortal sin go directly to hell.

Second, the soldiers prayed for died in mortal sin.

Third, Rome approves the action of Judas Machabee enough to base the doctrines of Purgatory, confession, and indulgences upon it.

Fourth, Rome declares that the dead can have sins forgiven and be saved by prayers, indulgences and money.

What is the logical conclusion here? Simple since Judas Machabee did the right thing (according to Rome), it must be possible for those who die in mortal sin to yet be saved! According to Rome, even those in Hell can go to heaven!


this seems very inconsistent to me

1) 'The CATHOLIC Bible & the Doctrine of Purgatory' @
http://www.cmri.org/00prog11.html

2) 'The Early CHURCH FATHERS on Purgatory' @
http://www.staycatholic.com/ecf_purgatory.htm

3) 'The Roots of Purgatory' @
http://www.catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

4) 'Purgatory' @
http://www.catholic.com/library/Purgatory.asp

- tocarm

Jesus, the Christ - God Incarnate Himself in His Own Words:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...49;&version=31;

'Souls Stuck In Purgatory Send Signals to Rome' @
http://www.holysouls.info/soulsstuck.php

'The Miracle of Holy Fire' @
http://www.holyfire.org/eng/video.htm

I don't make this 'Stuff' up...

...in my humble opinion, it would be wise for 6 billion people currently living and alive on planet earth to begin to TAKE SERIOUSLY that which God Incarnate Himself has had to say to us all these past centuries.

The October 13, 1973 message of the Mother of God as Our Lady of Akita to the Japanese Carmelite sister, Sr. Agnes:

http://www.theworkofgod.org/Aparitns/Akita.htm#Messages

God's Promise to Noah of NOT DESTROYING THE WORLD again >did not< include the words 'BY FIRE' in the Noahide Covenant's "fine print".


- tocarm

Christ Jesus Himself on 'Purgation' of the human spirit....

Christ Jesus Himself is recorded as having read from/quoted the Old Testament book of the Prophet Isaiah:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...22;&version=31;

This establishes that the book of Isaiah has "Divine Approval" by Christ Himself!

Prophet Isaiah himself RECORDS the 'Divine Purgation' he himself underwent in order to carry out his purely 'earthly' mission on behalf of God:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...-7;&version=31;

The writer of the New Testament book to THE HEBREWS declares that God is a 'consuming fire':

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...29;&version=31;

Thus reestablishing what THE HEBREWS were taught by MOSES way back in/under their 'Mosaic Covenant' in the book from THE TORAH titled 'Deuteronomy':

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...24;&version=31;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...33;&version=31;

So now...what are we to do. Since 'protestants' don't want to accept the Catholic Church's teachings on/about spiritual purgation in 'Purgatory'....do we allow PROTESTANTS now to do away with the Gospel of Luke, the OT book of Isaiah, the book of Deuteronomy along with LUTHER'S EXCLUSION of Hebrews, James and Revelation from the New Testament?

Just HOW MUCH MORE do we have to 'tolerate' from these PROTESTANTS who have so butchered the Church 'to pieces' these past 500 years as these 'Sola Scriptura' PROTESTANTS jump up and down celebrating the advent of WORLD WAR III?????

- tocarm

(and yeah, sure...the Catholic Church is the 'WHORE OF BABYLON'! Sure. Right.)

Jesus, the Christ - God Incarnate Himself in His Own Words:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...49;&version=31;
------

We already went over this

Jesus is not credited with saying this, look at the quotation marks, again you try to twist the scripture by taking quote out of context

Here is Mark 9 in context

42"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.[c] 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.[d] 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'[e] 49Everyone will be salted with fire.

'Souls Stuck In Purgatory Send Signals to Rome' @
http://www.holysouls.info/soulsstuck.php

'The Miracle of Holy Fire' @
http://www.holyfire.org/eng/video.htm


Deuteronomy 18:10 (King James Version)

10There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.






I don't make this 'Stuff' up...

...in my humble opinion, it would be wise for 6 billion people currently living and alive on planet earth to begin to TAKE SERIOUSLY that which God Incarnate Himself has had to say to us all these past centuries.

The October 13, 1973 message of the Mother of God as Our Lady of Akita to the Japanese Carmelite sister, Sr. Agnes:

http://www.theworkofgod.org/Aparitns/Akita.htm#Messages

SEE ABOVE QUOTE FROM DEUTERONOMY

Christ Jesus Himself on 'Purgation' of the human spirit....

Christ Jesus Himself is recorded as having read from/quoted the Old Testament book of the Prophet Isaiah:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...22;&version=31;

This establishes that the book of Isaiah has "Divine Approval" by Christ Himself!
------

OK

---
Prophet Isaiah himself RECORDS the 'Divine Purgation' he himself underwent in order to carry out his purely 'earthly' mission on behalf of God:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...-7;&version=31;

OK, But Isaiah is not in purgatory when this occurs, it is a vision. An Angel purifies Isaiah's 'unclean lips' this in NO WAY can be stretched into a doctrine of Purgatory by a sane intelligent person

The writer of the New Testament book to THE HEBREWS declares that God is a 'consuming fire':

here it is incontext

27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29for our "God is a consuming fire."[f]


Again this doesn't indicate the 'place' of Purgatory. But it DOES say the faithful will receive a kingdom that cannot be shaken --that doesn't sound at all like purgatory to me


quote
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...29;&version=31;

Thus reestablishing what THE HEBREWS were taught by MOSES way back in/under their 'Mosaic Covenant' in the book from THE TORAH titled 'Deuteronomy':

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...24;&version=31;

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...33;&version=31;
unquote

I do not see how any of this scripture quoted above can be twisted into a doctrine of Purgatory. can you explain ?

quote
So now...what are we to do. Since 'protestants' don't want to accept the Catholic Church's teachings on/about spiritual purgation in 'Purgatory'....do we allow PROTESTANTS now to do away with the Gospel of Luke, the OT book of Isaiah, the book of Deuteronomy along with LUTHER'S EXCLUSION of Hebrews, James and Revelation from the New Testament?




Just HOW MUCH MORE do we have to 'tolerate' from these PROTESTANTS who have so butchered the Church 'to pieces' these past 500 years as these 'Sola Scriptura' PROTESTANTS jump up and down celebrating the advent of WORLD WAR III?????

- tocarm

(and yeah, sure...the Catholic Church is the 'WHORE OF BABYLON'! Sure. Right.)
unquote


This is simply non-sense and you know it

Again

How does the RCC explain the fact the Jews killed in Machabees died in a state of mortal sin

and yet defend the practise of praying for them and giving money for them to the temple in Jerusalem

Can the RCC church 'pull' souls from Hell ?

Why is this the ONLY place in the Bible that seems to teach this principle IF it is sound doctrine

ETA

And why does Jesus NEVER teach purgatory ?

Luke 23:42

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Luke 16: 19 - 31 Jesus' Parable of Lazarus

There is NO purgatory in this parable

24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

tocarm you quote this as proof of purgatory
--------------------
Mark 9:49 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


49Everyone will be salted with fire.
-------------------

Go here and read it in its more original form from the Syrian Peshitta from about 150 AD.

At least 30 copies of this text exist today


http://www.peshitta.org/

Marqus Chapter 9 --go to page 7 of the pdf

eta typos

On PURGATORY, on the EARLY CHURCH FATHERS, on REVELANT SCRIPTURE:

http://www.fisheaters.com/purgatory.html

If you don't accept the Church's teachings on/about Purgatory, and if you don't accept the Early Church Fathers' teachings on/about Purgatory, and if you don't accept what 'The Bible' teaches on/about Purgatory...then WHOSE 'AUTHORITY' DO YOU ACCEPT?

Your own? Luther's? And IF you accept Luther's teachings about 'Sola Scriptura', then tell me why ZWINGLI was 'wrong' and Luther was 'right'. Or why KNOX was 'wrong' and Luther was 'right'. Or why SMYTHE was 'wrong' and Luther was 'right'. Or why KRANMER was 'wrong' and Luther was 'right'. And on and on it goes..the entire long list of 'Bible Alone' REFORMERS vs. Luther. Who was 'wrong' and who was 'right'.

- tocarm

"He Preached to the spirits in Prison" @
http://www.catholicsource.net/Purgatory1.html

If you don't accept the Church's teachings on/about Purgatory, and if you don't accept the Early Church Fathers' teachings on/about Purgatory, and if you don't accept what 'The Bible' teaches on/about Purgatory...then WHOSE 'AUTHORITY' DO YOU ACCEPT?

____________

I accept the Authority of Jesus Christ and of his Apostles as recorded in the scriptures

NO WHERE do they teach purgatory

In fact the early church fathers certainly did not agree about this either since purgatory was not an official part of the RCC doctrine until the 1200's (1254 AD I think I may be a bit off)--I am sure you know this

"XIX. ... As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch, have erred, SO ALSO the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in the living and manner of Ceremonies, but also in matters of Faith." - from the "Flagship of the Reformation":

http://anglicansonline.org/basics/thirty-nine_articles.html

Now GET OVER arguing with me about 'Purgatory'. Apparently you don't want to believe it.

And there are many, MANY PEOPLE WHO DO NOT WANT TO BELIEVE IN 'HELL'!

"Church of England Denies Eternal Hell" @
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/fbns/fbns70.html

So you OPPOSE the Catholic Church's doctrine on/about Purgatory. Well, do you OPPOSE the Church of England's doctrine on/about HELL????

- tocarm

P.S. What ecclesiatical title would you like...'Patriarche of the Internet'? That can be arranged per 'Sola Scriptura' and 'Sola Fide'.

About PURGATORY:

"...He will spend a period of time in THE PLACE OF EXPIATION, and after this he will be happy for all eternity." - God the Father to Mother Eugenia, 1931 AD -
- quoting from the next to last paragraph at:

http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Trinit...er/Message2.htm

About HELL:

"Believe Me (God the Father), if you had begun to honour Me with a special devotion frm the times of the early Church, after twenty centuries few men would remain living in idolatry, in paganism and in so many false and evil sects, in which man is running blindly TOWARDS THE ABYSS OF >>ETERNAL FIRE<<!"
- quoting from the last paragraph at:

http://www.theworkofgod.org/Library/Trinit...er/Message1.htm

- tocarm

(hang around...MORE to come)

So you OPPOSE the Catholic Church's doctrine on/about Purgatory.

Yes I do because it was NEVER taught by Jesus or by the Apostles


Well, do you OPPOSE the Church of England's doctrine on/about HELL????


I accept Jesus' teaching about hell, that is the last word

"What ecclesiatical title would you like...'Patriarche of the Internet'?"



We Protestants aren't hung up on elaborate titles, rings, robes, elaborate hats and such silly things. Accepting the love and forgiveness of Christ is more than enough. It is humbling to know that Christ died for the complete atonement for all our sins. We don't understand why the RCC needs all of its pomp and prideful ways. We strive to be like Christ who was humble unto death