Apr 1 2007, 10:51 AM
I'm very new here. I've been reading forum topics and watching videos until i can't see the computer screen clearly, but I have not seen this subject addressed in the FDR analysis. If I missed previous discussion on it, please accept my apologies for wasting your time.
In my years of flying I have found that the use of stabilizer trim is a unique signature of a professional pilot. Some manage it one way and others manage it in other ways. I assume the FDR for Flt 77 has the readouts for the Stab Trim during the entire flight. I am curious as to how the trim was used before the hijacking and how it was used after the takeover. Was it gear up, auto pilot on or did the flying pilot hand fly up to cruise altitude as I always liked to do? Did the way the trim was used after the takeover differ dramatically from how it was used by the crew? An inexperienced or blatantly incompetent pilot such as this hijacker pilot is supposed to have been would have considerable difficulty in trimming the aircraft during the flight maneuvers he supposedly performed, especially those involved in his 330 deg turn back to his target. Did he over trim or under trim? The speed changes and bank angles would have made the use of trim mandatory, I think. Did this guy use the trim like a pro or like the incompetent he was supposed to be? Did he trim out for his 30 deg bank angle as shown in the animation or hold the aircraft by yoke pressure? Why 30 degrees? How would this guy know that 30 deg is the typical max bank angle for passenger comfort etc that flight crews use?
Also how about throttle manipulation? Unless things are different now than they were when i stopped flying in 1995, throttle handles never line up perfectly to get the same engine power on both sides. A pro would keep the engines synched. Did this guy do that, or did he just pull/push the levers together like a novice would do?
If this aircraft was being flown by a good pilot his flying style (his signature) would be all over that FDR. Even if he tried to fly like an inexperienced hijacker, I think some things would be so automatic, so ingrained that he would perform them like a pro and not like a novice. Has anyone analyzed the FDR with this in mind?
I gotta say in summary that I am in a total state of shock. I can think of nothing else. I haven't even voted in the last 25 years, because i wanted nothing to do with politics, and now here I am writing this. Somebody pinch me cuz I think maybe i'm dreaming.
Apr 1 2007, 11:11 AM
I'm not a pilot so I can't answer your questions, but an interesting line of questioning for sure. Yeah, when I watch TV and notice that the whole world continues spinning as if 19 Arabs destroyed the Trade Towers and that's why were in these wars, it does seem like a dream - like I'm stuck in Wonderland.
Anyway, welcome to the forum
Apr 1 2007, 02:15 PM
That's a very good question. But the only site to offer an FDR was the Pentagon, as I understand it.
There are some guys here who could probably figure out an answer to your question, at least for 77. I would be interesting to know that.
Apr 1 2007, 03:20 PM
Ya, i understand that to be correct, Amazed. After some more thought, I'm also wondering about other checklist items that might have been performed after the takeover. Things that maybe someone with time in type would do automatically, but an ignoramus would know nothing about. Also If the Boeing didn't hit the Pentagon, it must have done a low pass and gotten out of there quickly. Were there any cockpit items preset for a go-around? The FDR should might give info about that.
Apr 2 2007, 01:17 AM
there are implications that some of the purported perps, if not all of the purported perps, were saudi military, trained at pensacola, maxwell, and elsewhere.
as to the venice flight school, i think you need to read danny hopsicker's investigation, WELCOME TO TERRORLAND.
if hopsicker has gotten it accurately, and i think he has, the purported perps would have no interest in performing suicidal missions. atta, for sure, had been flying light jets and running narcotics for years. with the approval of the highest levels of the usg. neither he nor his fellows were jihadists. and i don't think that any reward could have provoked them to have become suicidal.
i think that one can only conclude that 3 of those purported aircraft were robotic.
and i think it quite unlikely that any 757 collided with the pentagram. the photographic evidence just isn't there.
personally, i think that all of the purported saudis were flown to kentucky on light jets, when us airspace was closed to all other private aircraft, boarded house of saud 747, and returned to saudi arabia.
but you know the expression, dead men tell no tales? knowing what i know about the gangster state that is saudi arabia, it would be my best guess that these saudis, knowledgeable about the events of that day, were incarcerated, then beheaded as if common criminals. i can assure you, no one in the world would ever know of that resolution of the problem of witnesses.
i think that all of the striking aircraft were flown by awacs. and i don't think that any of the striking aircraft were those that are part of the official story.
i could be wrong about that, but it has always rubbed me wrong that these collisions with terrain were prohibited from being subjected to real crime scene investigations. i have always called that a conspiracy to obstruct justice.
critical aircraft parts that are serialized, linking them to an airframe[tail number] were collected and buried at fresh kills landfill. think upon that for a moment. as a matter of law, chain of custody and all that jazz, there is no de jure proof that any of the purported aircraft were the strikers.
oddly, this issue goes undiscussed, virtually.
and then, of course, there is the issue of the rapidity with which the bushit head of fema, joe albaugh, seized the manhattan sites, and instigated the removal of the critical evidence. without the protection of the potus, this would ordinarily be considered a misprision of a felony.
some of my critics say, well if the strikers weren't the aircraft that they say they were, where are those tail numbers that were 11, 175, 77, 93?
i don't think that i have to know that answer. it is sufficient to know that the usg has no provided no legitimate proof that the strikers were those tail numbers.
i also respond this way, do you know of the aircraft graveyards in arizona? most of them don't. well, all these aircraft could be there.
but what about the passengers, some ask. vacationing in gitmo, i respond. or, perhaps you remember the brit series, the prisoner. why is it that i think that the usg has facilities across the globe where you could sequester those passengers indefinitely? we know that the us military has vacation bases throughout the caribbean that go unrevealed to the sheep. why couldn't we harbor a couple of hundred in those facilities?
some respond that you couldn't keep anything like this secret for any length of time? huh?
the salient feature of history is how long you can keep things secret....let us consider a few.
jfk's addison's disease, for instance, and his other physical infirmities and addictions. the hiding of this debility, his addictions, was a monstrous conspiracy. entered into by scores of individuals, including the press.
lbj's philanderings. his alcoholism. even bob caro is walking gingerly here and, as yet, has not discussed those hidden aspects of that president in the depth that he should reveal.
the alcoholism of richard nixon. still a hidden story. a conspiracy of silence.
let us think upon my favorite illustration of a conspiracy, for a moment. the identity of deep throat. some would say that secrets cannot be kept for any length of time. hah. that is what the deep throat story disproves. for over 30 years, the identity of deep throat was kept a secret by a large number of individuals. who were those who kept that secret? ben bradlee and two of his wives, tony and sally. kate graham. her daughter lally weymouth, and at least two of her lovers[one was george will]. bob woodward and both of his wives. carl bernstein and his wives and lovers. bo jones. andy beyer. then there is kate's son, donnie, and his wife. and his uncle, the senator. and without considering signifcant others, lovers/wives, there was harry rosenfeld, barry sussman, howard simons.
you do the count. all these individuals knew for years the identity of deep throat. yet, none of them broke down and told you who deep throat was. the notion that secrets cannot be kept for a long time is a red herring.
and by the way, mark felt wasn't deep throat. and all of these individuals know it. still, they are more than content to let that falsehood obscure the truth.
finally, you must ask yourself this question, are the wapo, the nyt stateorgs? of course they are. just as abc, cbs, nbc, cnn, fxn are state orgs.
back in the us, back in the us, back in the ussr.
Apr 2 2007, 01:18 AM
oh, i forgot to ask, since you are interested in the subject of trim, did you ever study trim and AS261?
Apr 2 2007, 01:51 AM
@ albertchampion: Impressive amount of information in your post there, dude!
@ Jim_Mustanich: I'm hoping one of the guys who is more familiar with the raw FDR will show up and give an answer to your question. Not being an aviataion pro, but reasonably intelligent, I've also wondered if the data wouldn't show some 'signature' as you suggest. I believe the prevailing speculation is a ) the crafts were being robotically controlled and b ) the data we have has been tampered with. We don't know that the FDR data is, in fact, from AA77, only that the FBI and NTSB says it is. That is the route we're taking. They provided the data and they claim it is from AA77. One question would be, if they were going to provide this data, even if it was falsified to some degree or other, why would it not verify their presentation of facts?
If you haven't watched the google presentation by Calum Douglas (our very own "Snowygrouch", I recommend it to you:http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=55...q=calum+douglas
Apr 2 2007, 02:00 AM
There isnt any indication of trim movement within the animation (the only possible place to see this 'signature'), but there is a sort of 'signature' by the yoke movement.
When i first got the animation, i said it almost looked as if it was an experienced pro at the helm trying to make it look like an inexperienced driver.
If you watch the yoke movement during the 330 degree manever, it looks a bit sloppy at times..but not "sloppy" like i have seen with so many students.. it looked like it was intentional... then when he rolls out on the final leg, the movement is deliberate and precise.
This is shown in Pandora's Black Box 2.
Apr 2 2007, 06:35 AM
I probably wasn't clear in my first post about this. I thought P4T not only had the flight reconstruction animation, but that the group also had the raw data from the FDR. i.e. all the little numbers from which the animation was made. Correct me if i'm wrong, but I thought Pandoras Box II said we did. I have been out of aviation for 10 years, so I don't know what parameters the FDR was capable of recording in 2001. Airspeed, Altitude and Heading are all pretty basic. How about the positioning of other cockpit switches? Were the AC packs on? Did someone bring down the cabin altitude on the descent? Fuel boost pumps? Ignitions? etc. etc. All these things being in the correct position would indicate a pro at the helm and not some unknown. Were any of the cockpit switches set up for what had to be a go-around, because obviously this aircraft didn't strike the pentagon, nor did it disappear. It had to have been flown out of the area, and human control or robotic control aside, airplanes need to have certain things in the right place for different maneuvers. During the entire time that the hijackers were supposedly in control of flt 77. what switches were moved?
I am (or was to be more accurate) just a pilot. If want to satisfy myself that the flying part of this ridiculous scenario is bogus. I know nothing of explosives, military agendas, Saudi politics, missile capabilities, prior government lies, and all the rest. But I do know flying, and the flight aspects of these aircraft, especially those of flight 77 and 93, are the only areas of this monstrous event that I feel capable of discussing with any real expertise.
Apr 2 2007, 07:11 AM
Not being a pilot, the data in these threads doesn't mean a whole lot to me, but it might have some of the raw data info you are looking for, Jim.Brand New Readout On Ntsb Fdr, get your fresh hot dogs hereDownload AA77 NTSB Data, DCA01MA064 Source
QUOTE (johndoeX @ Sep 1 2006, 07:29 PM)
Simple text list of Parameters plottedDownload AA77_ParamsTabular.txt
also, I think for a single page resource on that data a good place to look is @http://www.aa77fdr.com/
a quote from one of John Farmer's blog posts
The csv file has too many (>256) columns to import into Excel properly (you lose around a hundred columns of data (including true heading). I wrote a little script that took the csv file and divided into into to sheets referenced by the time stamp. Download
Apr 3 2007, 01:24 AM
Helluva a good post Albert!