All -- There was a thread regarding the collapse of WTC 7 started yesterday on Democratic Underground that I had the misfortune of running across and then, because I must have some weird, deeply hidden masochistic streak, ended up participating in as an opponent of the official conspiracy theory. You can read the entire thread here, although I'd advise you to have some Pepto Bismol at hand.

The following is a brief excerpt from a lengthy post of mine in response to someone who suggested I needed to be medicated:



and here's a snip of the response:



What I don't know
So... Not being a pilot myself, I have no idea how easy or difficult it is to fly a plane. A quick look into the cockpit upon boarding a commercial jet suggests it's way over my head, but I may just be an dumber than the norm.

So I could really use the informed opinions of the experts on this forum. Can you step out of a single-engine Cessna and into the captain's chair of a Boeing 7x7 and fly the thing like you've got 20,000 hours?

Can you learn to navigate a 7x7 while in flight from Boston to NYC? If not, how easy is it to hit targets a couple of hundred miles away flying visual only?

How hard or easy would it be to make that turn and final approach to hit the Pentagon?

Is the NE corridor in fact the most heavily guarded air space on the planet? (I may have overstated that one, which I hate to do when advocating logic over hogwash.)

Would interceptors from Andrews have arrived in time to divert or shoot down the DC plane if notified at the moment that AA flight 77 turned off its transponder, broke radio contact and deviated severely from its flight plan?

What would happen if any of you turned off your transponders, broke radio contact and veered wildly off course? I think that SOP is to scramble interceptors immediately if any of these three things occurs. I remember the Payne Stewart story pretty well and have read a lot on that topic to fill in the gaps in my memory.

So what the hell happened to SOP on a day when the most serious breaches of protocol were either ignored or deliberately violated?

What I do know, or think I do
I know that at least five exercises, Cheney-Rumsfeld productions all, diverted interceptor jets, confused ATCs and delayed responses.

I know that Vigilant Guardian had sent many of NORAD's jet fighters toward the north pole to simulate response to an attack by bombers from a country that hasn't existed in nearly 20 years.

I know that Vigilant Guardian also injected false blips onto ATC radar screens, making it impossible to distinguish threats from normal or simulated traffic and preventing them from identifying the four hijacked planes from among as many as 21 unidentified blips.

I know the NRO was running a plane-into-building drill, which conveniently kept the people who watch the US satellite network's images in the parking lot instead of in front of their screens.

I know that another drill, possibly named Vigilant Warrior, was in progress and that the drill involved the use of one or more planes in a "live-fly" hijack exercise -- meaning that real hijacked planes were in the sky simultaneously with the mock hijacked aircraft.

I know that an FAA official, unilaterally and in breach of protocol and probably federal law, destroyed a tape containing ATC debriefing comments in the wake of the day's events.

But I don't know for a fact if all these things are part of an extremely well-coordinated black op or, as is the case with coincidence theorists, it's all just a case of cosmic synchronicity.

It would be of great assistance to get concrete data on how easy it is to shift from Cessnas to Boeings, how easy it is to hit targets at 500 or so MPH, how easy it is to get from Boston to NYC flying on visual only, what's SOP when a commercial aircraft just goes completely nuts, as these four did on 9/11 and so forth down the list.

I have my suspicions and biases, but expert help is always greatly appreciated.


Thanks all for taking the time to read and comment, and to PFT for providing the space for this long-winded recitation.

Best,

wp

On edit: tpyos

I was not able to read your whole post... but ... This may help you...

An interview with two pilots, one being an FAA Designated Examiner/Check Airman who passes and fails pilots at his airline... the other.. yours truly..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bm58cPH8L78

Be sure to read the description to the right of the video...

Welcome to the forums!

DemocraticUnderground is a lost cause so far as 9/11 is concerned. I should know. I've been a member for many, many years. I monitor it for a lot of good reasons but 9/11 isn't one of them. Arguing with the gate keepers and government loyalists is a total waste of time, IMO.

WP

I'll bet the truth is that the fellow who replied to you knows less about flying than you do. Don't let those people get to you.

Your instincts serve you truly, as does the science--it was an inside job, and the details are interesting only for trivial pursuit purposes.

There are so many holes in the government story that it ain't funny.

Hang in there pal--most all of those people are in complete and utter denial. Cognitive Dissonance, the shrinks call it. Making value decisions that conflict with the available evidence and reality.

yes, it continues to astound me that there is anyone who thinks that you can just walk into the flight deck and command the aircraft. of a commercial airliner.

40 years ago, when i was flying a b-model baron, virtually no one could have piloted it without lots of time flying one.

it is not like driving a car. even though years ago cessna promoted flying in that manner.

Thanks a lot for the link. That's about what I expected. And thanks for the welcome. This is one of the most informed and rational places I've found regarding 9/11 and the idiocy of the official story.

It's a relief to hear what experts have to say on these matters, rather than read the uninformed belief systems of biased, coopted synchronicity theorists.

Best,

wp

Yeah, me too. I've been a member since 2001 and the few people back then, once the horror of the events began to fade, people immediately started to ask the right questions: cui bono, what about those "puts," how did a gigantic bill like the patriot act get written in three weeks, what was Cheney doing that morning. And then the physical evidence came into question.

These days, the place is so riddled with apologists for the official story that, as you say, it's a lost cause on the subject.

I just fail to see how a place with a good number of intelligent, literate and informed progressives has managed to attract all these statist tools. Almost makes me think they're acting on behalf of the usual entities who need alternatives to the BushCo myth to stay buried in the far corners of "conspiracy nut" land.

Either that or, with way over 100,000 members, maybe that's a fair representation of opinion among Americans in any group of that size and diversity. Which is truly scary, when you consider the suspension of critical thinking and disbelief the official theory requires.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the reply. I'll visit this place first when I want more ammo to go after these blind idiots. I really love a good fight, but II like it considerably more if I win...



wp

Yeah, I suppose it a classic case of mass cognitive dissonance, coupled with the need to believe that even this foul pack of vermin posing as a government wouldn't kill its own citizens. That and the full-court press mass media has put on to bless the official story while marginalizing and snickering about alternative explanations, no matter how valid the circumstantial and physical evidence may be, or how logical, well-sourced and scientifically documented those alternatives may be.

Personally, I draw the line at theories that involve green alien lizards from Area 51 dressing up as humans, slithering under cover of darkness all the way from the Southwest to the Northeast, acquiring the skills necessary to navigate and drive twin-engine jets through a mind-meld with a TWA pilot who complains of headaches to this day, adopting Arabic identities because they misread their maps and thought they were in Dubai, took a NYC city bus to Home Depot and picked up nineteen bubble-wrapped packs of The Basic Hijacker's Kit™, on sale that week for $3.49 each, then went to Borders and picked up a copy of "Hijacking for Dummies®," went nuts in a couple of Manhattan after-hours clubs and got sloppy drunk on Draino shooters, overslept and had to haul ass to the various airports (which is tough at slithering speeds), boarded the planes without incident, whipped out those Home Depot kits and the rest is history.

Then again, that's about as likely as the official story, so what the hell... Maybe I'll shop that theory around next time I feel like starting a war on Democratic Underground.

And thanks a lot for the reply. I see even rookies who can't fly a kite are treated well here.

Best,

wp

Navigation help needed.

I'm sure this is a really stupid question and that the answer's obvious, but I can't figure a way to reply to a specific post so that my post appears directly under the one I'm commenting on. I can only get replies to show up at the end of the queue. I've used quotes to identify which post I'm responding to, but if there's a way to just insert a comment under a specific post, that would greatly simplify things.

Thanks and best to all,

wp

for me, the most insidious misprision of all the felonies was the destruction of the voice recordings of boston and new york control talking to all the aircraft in the NE CORRIDOR that morning.

i think that far stipulates that all controller conversations are recorded for a 24 hour period. then the tapes are retained for 14 days. if they are not subpoenaed, not requested by an official investigative entity, within that 14 day window, then the tapes are returned to recording duty and overwritten with a new day's dialogs.

some years back, in the matter of AS261, i became very interested in the conversations of LA control with that aircraft's crew. to the best of my recollection, no one requested those tapes, not the ntsb, not a single litigants' attorneys. i thought that extraordinarily unusual. and strongly suggested that at some level, a massive cover-up of that "accident" was occurring/had occurred.

it is my understanding[i could be wrong] that there was no effort made to secure the oral records of controllers and aircraft crews on that day. and i find it interesting that this issue receives very little scrutiny. i think that if you were able to hear those recordings of controllers talking to aircraft crews in the NE CORRIDOR, then you would learn that the controllers knew pretty well what was occurring. what i think you would hear would be controllers working feverishly to clear the airspace to prevent mid-air collisions, controllers wondering where in the hell were the interceptors, and controllers figuring out the projected flight paths of the "seized" aircraft.

this is a record of the day that the highest levels of the usg[reptillian & demtillian] do not want heard by the electorate. especially when it would have to be heard in conjunction with the controllers' conversations with aircraft crews to bring down all airborne aircraft throughout the NE CORRIDOR and throughout the USA[a virtually unprecedented act and accomplishment].

some of the believers in the bushit like to assert that if there was a conspiracy, someone would have talked by now...surely a controller would have gone public with his/her story of that day by now. really? none of them came forward in the matter of AS261. would that have anything to do with that black crown vic parked in front of each controller's residence? and would blackwater, dyncorp have a contract to provide that intimidation for the state? i think so.

one of the peculiar aspects of that day remains the selection of the targets. strategically/tactically irrelevant. if i were a knowledgeable "terrorist", such as ubl[whose family knew the usa very well], why would i fly passenger jets into the wtc or the pentagon? you know, a few minutes less flying time from boston, they could have collided with the nuclear power plant at indian point. after all, they flew virtually right over it. now that would have been an act that would have really f*cked up the usa.

or better still, for a few more minutes of flying time, they could have collided with petroleum refineries in NJ. had those petrochemical complexes been the targets, most transportation on the eastern seaboard would have been shut-down for months[years]. that would have put a real hurt on the great satan.

a similar problem resides with the strike at the pentagram. why strike that fortification? for just a few more minutes of flying time, there are the petrochemical complexes on the delaware. again, taking out one or more of them would insure the shut-down of the eastern seaboard of the usa.

no real terrorist, recognizing the real vulnerabilities of the usa, would have targeted the facilities that were struck. those targets are theatrical targets only.

and even more important question is why would any dedicated, intelligent enemy of the usa jeopardize its operation by employing hijacked commercial aircraft? consider that you are ubl. you have significant financial resources. you can buy/lease lots of jet aircraft in 2001. even more to the point, you can load them up with explosives and position them so that there can be no chance for any interception. but, that isn't done. instead these very knowledgeable "terrorists" do almost everything to make their efforts unnecessarily vulnerable and strategically irrelevant.

and lastly, there is the undiscussed issue of anti-aircraft missile batteries. i am not as knowledgeable of the emplacements surrounding manhattan, but i am pretty certain that they are there. they are definitely there in the surrounding countryside of DC. at any time, within its last 100-150 miles, the "hijacked" aircraft enroute to DC could have been taken out by a SAM. this issue goes undiscussed. it is an interesting issue because it means that there were "stand-down" orders that went beyond aircraft to aircraft interdiction.

why is it that none of this is discussed in any journal of record?

lastly, there are many purportedly progressive[anti-reptillian] sites that do not want to deal with these issues. in fact, i would say that there are some where the owner of the site might use various pseudonyms[steve soto's left coaster comes to mind as does digby's hullabaloo] to attack anyone promoting the realities that have been discussed here. reptillian/demtillian the bushit version of the events of that day are not to be disputed: in all their black hearts they all applaud whatever means have been employed to murder vast numbers of muslims.

i close with this recollection of baghdad in the era of saddam hussein - that evil "dictator". it is a feature of life under that "dictator" that is rarely discussed. you know, as a citizen of iraq, under the saddam hussein regime, you could own an automatic rifle[the preferred was the AK47] and its ammunition. more to the point, when saddam hussein came out to the citizens of iraq and made a public speech, his speech was punctuated by the public, the audience, firing rounds from their automatics into the air. tell me, do you know of any other "dictatorships" where this was allowed?

if saddam hussein was so hated, why did no one in the audience just blow him away?

Albert --What's AS261? Is that a specific crash you're referring to? If so, what were the circumstances and why do you suspect a cover-up (besides the reasons you've already stated above?

Also, do you mind if I copy your post to a couple of dozen people with whom I'm affiliated in the Oregon Truth Alliance? (http://www.oregontruthalliance.org/) This is a new angle and I'd like them to see it for themselves.

Finally, it's my understanding that an unnamed FAA official physically took the cassette tape of some ATC conversations and crushed the plastic, cut the tape into small pieces and tossed the whole thing into a garbage can. This isn't the recording you're referring to, is it?

It sounds like you're talking about compulsory recordings that are made continuously of all ATC conversations every minute of every day. Is that correct? If so, I would think that destroying, overtaping or refusing to release those recordings from 9/11/01 would be a fairly serious felony.

And of course, as you note, neither the reptillians nor their lizard kin on the other side of the aisle are overly interested in hearing them anyway. So move on, citizen, nothing to see here, just routine, forget all about it, take your valium, watch some more TV and don't forget to go out and buy more useless stuff.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the post and, if you have the time, I'd really like to hear back from you re the questions I posed above.

Best,

wp

where did my reply go?

expunged?

found it.....

ALASKA AIR FLIGHT #261.

in my opinion, it was a deliberate shoot-down of a commercial airliner offshore pt Mugu NAS, aka PACIFIC MISSILE TEST CENTER.

the ntsb's conclusions were bullshit. and every DC-9/MD-80 pilot knows it. and the history of that flight confirms it. and the oral record of the aircraft crew with the controllers would be the proof.

but someones didn't want that oral record to be preserved.

as i understand the far, each controller's conversations with aircraft during his time on duty is recorded. and as i told you, preserved for 14 days. if not seized by some legitimate authority, those tapes are re-used, overwritten.

in the incident of AS261, no one requested those controller tapes. and they weren't requested by any one after the events of 11/09/01.

as i came to understand it, far's dictate that every controller's conversations during his/her shift are recorded.

this means that for each controller at boston control, new york control, there was a tape of their conversations with aircraft. not only with the purportedly "hijacked" aircraft, but with each aircraft for which they were responsible.

can you imagine what a rich record these conversations are?

and as i said, the regulations are that these tapes are to be retained for 14 days. and only overwritten if no legal entity requests them.

did the ntsb request those tapes? did the fbi? did the cia? OR WERE THEY ALLOWED TO BE OVERWRITTEN 14 DAYS LATER. personally, that is what i think. no one in the bushit regime wanted the electorate to hear the oral record of that day. had we heard it, we would have known that it was an inside job.

yes, you can share what i have to say with anyone you want to. even with the highest levels of the usg. the critical issue persists, why is it that you are telling me that you are hearing what i have to say for the first time. you must know, i said all of this within days at rense.com. and what i had to say was featured.

lastly, the destruction of the records of controller conversations with aircraft that day is a misprision of felonies. as i said, if you could hear them, you would hear the record of that morning that would totally contravene the official sty.

all the best.

thx Albert!
I was trying to make that point with little success in the thread, where everybody got exited about some NORAD tapes of 9/11

http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum...dpost&p=9899009

It's these ATC tapes, that would have been VERY interesting. I just can't believe, that these tapes have been destroyed. There have been some plane-crashes that day or am I wrong...

of course, that is the interesting aspect of that day. at least 4 accidents. and not a single legitimate ntsb investigation. not a one of the sites secured as a crime scene. as is supposed to happen.

would make you think that the potus, the vpotus, did not want a legitimate examination of the sites.

why would that be, do you think.